After the horrific story of Baby P came out, where each detail seems to add yet another awful question (how can you get away with hiding injuries with chocolate smears? how can a doctor fail to notice that a baby’s back is broken?), and then the desperately unseemly sight of MPs bawling at each other across the House of Commons (what a collective failure of decency by those sitting behind Brown and Cameron who somehow thought that was an appropriate way to behave when the death of baby was being discussed), we now have this:
The Times has also learnt that Haringey Council, sharply criticised after the death of Victoria Climbie eight years ago, hampered the investigation into the death of Baby P by not handing over all their information to murder squad detectives.
It was only when the trial got to court and the judge requested that they provide all their evidence that police officers were able to see everything they had.
A senior source involved in the inquiry said: “The council came in with pages and pages of stuff that we had no idea existed and had never seen before.”(The Times)
I thought Lynne Featherstone (one of the Haringey MPs) had it quite right in making the comparison with the Brand/Ross affair. In a world where – without waiting for any inquiry results to be published – the Controller of Radio 2 resigns after a deeply unpleasant radio prank, surely someone somewhere in all of this should have the decency to quit?
The one tiny, tiny bright spot has been the behaviour of the Speaker. I’ve not been a great fan of his, but he went up greatly in my estimation – he at least had the decency to try to restore a semblance of dignity to MPs’ behaviour at Prime Minister’s Questions.
UPDATE: Alix has written about how our anger and horror over the tragedy can be turned into effective, practical action.
485 Comments
Baby P was NOT good adoption material ,hence his injuries like those of hundreds of other children were ignored. If he had been a healthy,happy,white child with blonde hair and blue eyes he would have been adopted by now ! Risk of emotional abuse ? Parents not cooperating with “professionals”? Any pretext would have been used !
Cursory examinations would have revealed the injuries to baby p and probably did so any number of times but were ignored !
If baby p had been taken into care in time there is no way his parents would have gone to court to get him back.Yet when parents care enough to fight in court case after court case (a sure indication of how much they love their child)they nearly always lose because judges unlike juries (if juries were allowed in family courts) always play it safe and go along with social services .No matter how much they criticise the “SS” in court they nearly always give them the verdict ! Sad Sad Sad !
people like baby ps parents dont deserve to live!!! they should be torcherd like they did to there son!!
This story still disgusts me too much to form any sort of balanced opinion on it at the moment.
Still you can generally set your watch to official reaction. Shock, horror, the fabled line of ‘lessons will be learned’, then continue blundering on as per usual till next time.
Someone should definitely be out of a job over this. The ‘doctor’ that failed to realise the child was paralysed would be a good start.
This is an absolute disgrace, Their should be no enquiry to wether these people should be sacked or not.
In any profession if you FAIL to do your job you get SACKED or do the decent thing and STEP DOWN.
A life has been lost the child could not speak for itself and this is why we have social services, time and time again they are failures. how can they sleep at night.
Bring back the deaf penalty for these sick people who tortured the child.
And sack the social workers and heads who did not do there job properly.
I don’t know why everyone keeps repeating the same song: “resign” “sack” “step down”. The utterly unbelievably disgraceful stupid twisted dumb bureaucrats who are responsible for this should be jailed for 80 years.
I am sickened by this,
I am not a trained social worker or Doctor but I could tell instantly if there was something suspect about a childs well being or Health because I am a Mother!
Yet after numerous visits to the Doctors and 60 official Social Services visits still poor Baby P remained with the people who bore him ( I cannot bring myself to call them parents!)
The officials responsible should be sacked and the maximum prison sentance for those who commited this hideous revolting act of violance against him.
God rest he’s little sole.
It beggars belief that no one saw, heard or cared for that poor defenceless child. My stomach churns. Hope you are resting in heaven little baby
IT IS APALLING HOW THEY TAKE CHILDREN OFF THE PARENTS WHO ACTUALLY CARE AND LEAVE KIDS WITH PARENTS LIKE THESE…ITS ALL ABOUT MONEY…IF IT WAS CHEAPER TO ADOPT AND FOSTER ETC…THEY WOULD HAVE DONE SOMETHING…IT ALL BOILS DOWN TO MONEY!!!!!!!!!
I constantly look at the imformation, pictures on baby P, I look across to my two little boys, one of which is 8 months and the other of 23 months, both my children lie between the age of baby P, i look at their tiny hands and feet and loving faces, and still fail to see how could such things happen to un tainted souls, all they want is love, reassurance, nothing more and nothing less, how could he hurt him, with him looking him back in the face with his innocent pleding eyes, i can see only one good thing to come from this, and that it is baby P is now in place where no one and nothing can harm him, all we can do is love our children that little bit more, and give extra hugs for those who go without, RIP Baby P, god rest your peaceful soul.
can i just say something about Ian J comments, its not about colour or race, its about a child, which is the important fact here, being ignored and abused being the issue, bullies like the man who hurt Baby P, like other people out there, dont see colour, they see a weaker being that they can dominate, and i dont think that the adoption people see colour as a priorite either, please excuse me if in speaking out of term, or seeing things black and white.
Ian and Rebecca – not that it makes even an ounce of difference – but baby P was actually white and blonde!!!
See obscured picture here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk
Also here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk
So Ian’s comments are total nonsense.
Just shows how people like Ian manage to turn every situation into a race issue whilst the facts are EXACTLY opposite!!
This is happening all the time.
Take a look at this recent case where no one was even charged and no one seems to care!
http://www.worcesternews.co.uk/
White and blonde he may have been but the fact he was obviously abused and living in squalor still disqualified him as “adoption material”Only happy healthy children are kidnapped by the adoption Nazis , whilst the seriously physically injured are callously left alone,often to die !
The formula is simple.”Horrific physical abuse by intimidating parents?”Leave them alone and leave in a hurry!
“Risk of future emotional abuse” from a pregnant mother and the baby will be taken at birth!
An anonymous phone call accusing parents of noisy arguments,A small bruise caused at school,fractures with NO previous history of violence or any bruising elsewhere,a battered mother crying for help ? All these are signals for the “SS” to swoop with an easily gained “epo” and subsequent fosterig and adoption by strangers !Secret courts compliant judges and parents gagged under threat of prison if they talk complete the dismal picture !
Nothing will change unless stopping severe physical abuse is made the priority,juries replace judges in care cases and parents are allowed to speak freely to the press if they feel unjustly treated by the courts .
Don’t hold your breath !
HANG YOUR HEADS IN SHAME HARRINGAY SOCIAL SERVICES AND THE SO CALLED DOCTOR WHO FAILED TO DIAGNOSE A BROKEN BACK AND 8 BROKEN RIBS. SEVENTEEN MONTHS OF PAIN, NO LOVE, NO CUDDLES. NOT ONE PERSON SHOULD BE SACKED THE WHOLE LOT OF THEM ARE A DISGRACE TO THEIR PROFFESSION
I have a 17month old baby and I choke up every time I think of Baby P. How can anyone torture helpless children is beyond my understanding. They must be the lowest and filthiest scum. I wish they would bring the death penalty on people who commit crimes against children.
The people who did this to baby p should be locked up for life n tortured by others like they did to baby p. The death penalties to easy. As for the social workers and doctors who could have helped baby p should never beable to work with the public again they should hide in shame.
I will never be able to understand what has happened to this small unhappy innocent baby who could not deffence himself. I have no words to say more, only to cry about him and to hope that he rest in peace now!
I hope all these people who were responsible for that crime to be judged and especially the boyfriend who made this abuse!!!!
I completly agree with Emily Jones!!!!
IAN JOSEPHS, on this you are absolutely right. They kidnap kids from good, kind loving parents because of a “concern” for neglect. But here in this case they suddenly couldn’t find the “powers” to remove the kid from his murderous parents.
These SS workers are unimaginably stupid and unspeakably cruel.
The ones who should be locked up are not the parents but the SS workers.
The parents can be appointed to become SS workers. Because after all they sound well qualified for the job……
If Ed Balls is in the responsible position then the responsibility rests with him and he should accept it.
Now, will Ed Balls go?
When I think of this poor little chap who died in such agony I feel so very sad and very angry. But am I surprised this has happened again then not at all. Will it happen again in the future, of course it will. I have only ever worked in the private sector and do know that nine out of people would have lost their jobs over such an appalling lack of responsibilty. In the public sector this is all so very different. Everyone keeps their jobs, nobody is made accountable for such disasters and in time it all happens again. If you are lucky someone says “sorry” (something you say when you acidently bump into someone or let a shop door go on the person behind you!!!)but only if they are prompted to do so. Will Haringay Council feel real remorse over what has happened? Maybe they will. Will they be trying to cover their backs at this moment prior to an investigation, of course. The Council are not alone. Will the hospitals be doing the same. Of course. Will anyone be dismissed? Not at all
rest in peace lttle man xxxxxxx
Bring back the deaf (sic) penalty??
They should be torcherd (sic)??
So glad I read a Lib Dem website on this, rather than a Tory one.
I feel so sick to the stomach what has happened to baby p, he was just a baby he didnt knw wot was right or wrong, how could a mother harm a baby, an it sickens me to think theres more childeren in same boat as we talk bout it . bring back death penalties . RIP baby bless you soul x
I am a mother of a toddler the same age as Baby P and I am expecting another in April next year. When I saw the news last night I was horrified at the evil that is allowed to go un-noticed in our society. I do not consider myself to be a conservative person but I strongly feel that the death penalty should be brought back for people like this. All murder is foul but somehow it seems easier to accept the death of an adult who can maje some effort to defend himself, than a tiny defenceless baby. This poor baby would have been better off never having been born. Lets face it he never had a life. This was an act of pure unadulterated wickedness. I hope they do not suvive prison.
I cannot believe that this has happened again to a poor defenceless child. The parents and those involved with inflicting those terrible injuries should not be allowed to become parents again. They should all be sterilized if they ever survive their prision sentence. I hope they get exactly what they deserve. May baby P now rest in peace, God love him because nobody else did.
I have to say, this story of all round incompetance by professionals is truly outrageous and we should all expect those resposible to be held accountable.
On another point, that I will be shot down in flames for, the spelling of people on this thread also shows how we are not taking adult literacy seriously enough. If people don’t knoe the difference between “he’s” and “his” or “sole” and “soul”, then we are in a pretty dire state. This is not a reflection on the individuals who have taken time out to type their messages but on how they have been let down by the education system.
i am only a 16 year old girl, but i have had to take care of my little sister due to my mum being ill for several years now. When i read what hapened to this baby i was horrifide i was in tears knowing that in this world there are poeple who can acc do that to someone so inisent as that baby.17 mouths and wit hthe rest of his life ahead ov him all they could do was ruin it, its not fair and i think its partly the socials fult im doingg work on becomming a social worker and i no full well that if i was to go to a scrummy horrible flat with a pedo and mental mother and boyfriend with a child in seriouse pain and needing help i would take it away, that baby went to the doctors about 4 times and yet they gaveh im back again and again, ino im only 16 but god it hit me!! this is not right.Needs to be sorted out and i hope that her new baby girl has a better life than her big brother did,CRUEL MEAN HORRIBLE SICK SLOBBY ****!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SORT IT OUT !!!!
The way that our authorities behave now no-one would be surprised if poor baby P’s “carers” are sentenced to a hundred hours community service and some therapy. But I say sterilise these beasts and any others like them and lock them away from the rest of us forever. And although death by genital gangrene would be about right why can’t they be taken upon conviction from court to hospital and given irreversible vasectomies and in the female beast’s case, a radical hysterectomy? OK, so call me a fascist, but these monsters have managed to corrupt me by turning this life-long, wishy washy liberal granny who’s always believed love cures all and everyone deserves a second chance into a red-eyed, furious, tooth-baring creature who’d willingly help rip these creatures apart with my bare hands. I look at my beautiful grandchildren, including my son’s beloved step-children, and can’t believe the hatred that pitiful baby P’s killers have sown in my soul.
i am truly sickened as to what mother would do such things to her child! she should be sterlised so she can never have any more better still put her in a room full of proper mothers and let them do everything to her what she did to baby p. bring back hanging. as for the social workers in my eyes they are as guilty as her they also played a part in his death.
I cannot express how utterly revolted I am by this case. It makes me feel physically sick and repulsed. It results in me having very little faith in the systems put in place to protect poor, innocent, defenceless children and in human nature in general. Many individuals are to blame here from those in authority to the family and friends who did nothing to help. This should not be allowed to happen again. The very thought that this is most probably happening as I type this to some other poor child fills me with horror. The reviews, which have now been put in place, cannot undo this wrong but they must find people accountable and must result in change. Social workers must have more power and procedures must be put in place to maximise consultation between those in authority – surly if communication had flowed between all those involved in the cases the evidence would have been undeniable and action would have had to happen. I am no expert in this field and simply want to put my voice forward to support any change for the better. Thank goodness this little boy is now out of his misery – absolutely heart breaking. Furthermore, the perpetrators of this crime must receive maximum sentences and no leniency should be shown – they should be made examples off regardless of any situation or circumstance.
And how can that stupid Shoesmith woman say ‘There is nothing we can do to stop people who are determined to kill children’. Erm THAT’S THE POINT OF YOUR JOB, to take away these children and throw these sick, evil parents into prison.
While not wanting to detract from this appalling crime and suffering of baby P – I’m frankly appalled at the glee in which many posters appear to be taking the prospect the perpetrators being tortured and murdered.
I think most Liberals agree that torture and murder is wrong regardless of whether it involves children or adults. The lack of irony (and literacy) from the majority of posters is frankly worrying.
I don’t think these people are LDs, and their names show they’re not regular contributors. It is a bit like the Gurkha thread.
i couldnt believed when i read this story,it made me want to cry. im a mother and i love my son, and cant understand how people are so evil, i went to bed last night thinkink about baby p and how this could happen to this innocent little boy, they are evil people and as for the mother she sickens me,as a mother your job is to love and care for your child and protect them, my heart goes out to baby p
60 f*****g visits an not 1 single person noticed a thing what a bunch of over paid idiots and i say over paid because they didnt do anything worth being paid for ie their jobs i would notice if my cat was being abused for goodness sake.
A f’n incompetent bunch of goons allowed that baby to suffer for months at the hands of evil then die.
Haringey should be disgraced out of existence! I have left numerous messages on many sites but some of the best ones I have viewed are to be found on web page “gone too soon” a memorial site. I have also made two petitions to G Brown. Asking that those responsible resign immediately. Also that Child Prote ction Services have greater powers to intervene as well as the Police and that the people like the Scum of hell (not earth) be sentenced to life forever with no chance of ever being free. That said I hope they do get it in prison.
The worse thing I also heard was that the “sl*t” of a mother has just given birth again and haringey wanted her to bond with baby!!! Can you ever believe it!!!!!
Thank God there is a god and the Police stepped in and took the child immediately. See times online.
I forgot to mention the file my petitions are named under Babyp001 and babyP 002. Two becasue you only ge t a 1000 characters and I had lots to say.
They will hopefully be up and running in a few days as they have to be approved first.
Please keep a look out for them and sign them. Thank you and forward on to anyone you know. Its time we as a nation stood up for our children and demand changes and long long long sentences.!
DAN, why are you annoyed with the posters on this blog?
Are you not aware that Britain (if it still exists) is now full of millions of immigrants who’s English – I am sure you will agree – cannot be expected to be perfect?
So if you are really a Liberal Democrat, show some compassion for immigrants or people with a poor education or some other problem in their upbringing/community/family etc etc etc.
I can,t think of him all battered and bruised without crying.Please let the inmates take care of them
What a shame for this little child you can,t belive it can you that this could happen I think that the whole lot of them should be locked up thats the mother boyfriend lodger doctor and haringey social services they all have blood on there hands sleep well you rotten lot rip little baby P they can,t hurt you anymore
To Pamela Caley.
Please do not be a pessimist and affirm that this will happen again. I pray to God and every other being out there who can help it will never ever again. We have to keep believing we the people have the power to change things and demand change else we will always throw our hands up and become complacent. Complacency only creates more complacency and allows these very acts to continue. I understand that there is not much history to go by, but we must try and change that history starting from now to our-story instead of his-story. There better be resignations or else we should all take to the streets and protest failing that drag them out their puny f**g office and force them to resign.
If rioting is good for France why not for Britain??
Have we all gone too soft???
Hi Josh, i know the baby was white and blonde, i was just trying to highlight that it doesnt and shouldnt matter about colour or race, no child should ever suffer.Regardless of their background as well they should be given the basic human requirements, respect, love, and secruity, especially from your parents, because lets face it, if your parents cant love or protect you, who can you rely on? that women should not be allowed anywhere near the rest of her children, and i cant believe how little people involved in the case valued that little babys life! I hope that all my input as not offended anyone, but this is how I feel, and I dont say, this news will continue to eat away at me.
After two days of constantly shedding tears for this little boy, I am now at the stage when i’m feeling consumed with anger. Why wasn’t he removed from the ‘flea ridden property’ when he had bruises and cuts? Just why? Where was the sense of urgency? Now I can’t help but think about what might have happened had a different doctor examined the paralysed baby, would he now be safe at home with a loving, adoptive family? Or would his sicko parents just get counselling sessions, and would Baby P be thrown straight back into the lion’s den? Rest in peace darling Baby P, they cannot hurt you anymore. Yasmin, 17 years of age.
Dan, Emily,
Well, I’m a paid-up Lib Dem. I suppose you have a point. It would be wrong for the State to deal with evil by perpetrating evil itself.
But the people who aren’t Lib Dems, and are posting here, seem to me to be basically very genuine, sincere, and human. This crime has upset them , got under their skins, eaten into their souls. That’s understandable, isn’t it?
A lot more understandable than watching Brown and Cameron have a political dog-fight over a dead baby!
The abuse that this poor baby endured is disgusting!
Listening to interviews from people who witnessed the abuse or noticed injuries to the wee boy is just sickening. Did the childminder who saw that the baby was bleeding from his ears not think to phone an ambulance and the police? The young girl who witnessed the abuse and chose to go outside for a cigarette to escape the screaming, why did she not intervene or go for help straight away? Did the social services not notice the physical and emotional injuries, as they are trained to do?
This poor wee boy was failed by so many people, and the really shocking, heartbreaking part is that after putting up with so much pain, in the end he never received any help and died alone.
Some may think that torturous punishment is too harsh for the three sickos that carried out this appalling abuse but I feel that they should suffer for their terrible crime against a defenceless child. For this case, BRING BACK CAPITAL PUNISHMENT!
It’s not a question of revenge or punishment! Quite simply DOCTORS SHOULD BE STRUCK OFF!SOCIAL WORKERS SHOULD BE SACKED!
POLITICIANS SHOULD BE FORCED TO RESIGN,and Senior administrators should be held to public account ! If this is not done the same situation will occur again,and again,and again,and again !Bad practices can only be cured by accountability and child cruelty is no exception !
No one can understand why they did this to the baby. And non of us can decide what will happen to them. It’s a waste of time to get angry here and write they should be tortured and killed…it will hot happen. But something must happen, some justice, something that has not happened before…
Hell, am i upset, Not only does the social services tick (f…k) me off for not doing their job, but so do all of you as you speek like baby p was the only one. He had a brother, if none of you noticed. I now live abroad, but try to keep in touch with english news when ever i can. Please, can someone explain to me, how the police can call at 2.50pm and not go in the house, BUT can call at the grandparants, THEN, get a call saying two babies are found stabbed too death. How on earth can any neighbour or social worker that has been invoved, NOT notice when a young mother has problems, surely someone saw or heard something disturbing enough to call the authorities, i know i would, im a mother. This woman,because i can not in my heart call her a mother deserves the worst thing ever. DO NOT put her in a mental institute, that is too good for the likes of her. Lock her in a room full of mothers and children, let her realise what she has done AND LOST. My heart goes out to the family and friends who have lost two beautiful baby boys. God rest their souls.My only consolation is that, those babies are better off now, and are happy ( i am NO religious person), and that the english law system will for once, Not let us down. I read an article, on the internet, where labour was blaming the conservatives for this. (it was in the daily mail i beleive, but dont quote me, as i have read many). How on earth can they OR EVEN THINK of using this as a weapon. (THEY ALL DISCUSSED ME, maybe this is why i am not in england anymore). I love and miss my home, BUT this just shows me that there is something really wrong, and for that i am truely sorry.BUT in cases like this where babies are involved we need someone to bring back the death penalty, i know some of you wont or dont agree with me,BUT i know there are many many more of you that do.
Thank you for taking the time to read this.
Most of the ‘professional’ people that came into contact with Baby P are obviously highly qualified and can justify their position and salaries because of their qualifications.
When will we learn that ‘theory’ and qualifications are not the be all and end all – particularly when you’re dealing with life and death situations? I’m not talking about qualified medical practitioners, but so called ‘Social Workers’.
I’m aware that you have to be a very special sort of person to carry out the duties of a competent Social Worker, or Police Officer for that matter. You have to be objective and not allow yourself to get emotionally involved. However, you do have to have compassion and common sense – poor Baby P obviously was not fortunate enough to have come into contact with ‘professional people’ who had those vital qualities.
Though Baby P suffered a dreadful list of injuries throughout short his life, I’m sure that the list of qualifications, should they be supplied by the inadequate ‘professionals’ that allowed him to suffer and subsequently die, would be far longer.
When those ‘professionals’ list their ‘achievements’ on their future CV’s, I would imagine that they will fail to mention that they contributed to the death of Baby P.
Maybe I’m being harsh and some of them won’t be submitting CV’s in the near future. Perhaps they will go on long term sick leave due to ‘stress’ and subsequently draw ill-health pensions for the rest of their lives.
Baby P like any baby should have felt and experienced love, fun, warmth and security instead he spent his short and tragic life in pain and discomfort. Instead of home comforts and love what baby P surely felt was loneliness, neglect, torture, the cold, hunger, dehydration and discomfort, one example being made to touch his forehead on the floor by his torturers when they clicked their fingers. There they would keep him in fear of another beating for 30 minutes or more until they next clicked their fingers. All this and much more he went through in isolation with no one there for him or on his side despite being on the case load of Haringey Social Services.
How Sharon Shoesmith (head of Haringey children’s services) can claim good practises were made in the case of a small boys abuse and subsequent death is beyond be. Then to issue graphs of her department’s performance to the media is cold and heartless. This highlights she has no empathy and should not be in a post where she is responsible for the welfare of vulnerable children.
In addition to this a Paediatrician who cannot detect a broken back and the many other visible injuries and signs of discomfort displayed by baby P is not a Paediatrician and should be sacked and placed on charges of neglect. All people involved in this case who had the power to stop it should be disciplined. I do however have some small praise for the police who informed Haringey children’s services they recommend baby p not be placed back into care of his mother where he was being neglected and abused.
Finally, I think all in positions of responsibility who have had involvement in this case, people such as Shoesmith and the paediatrician should take the time to reflect on the ordeal that poor baby had to go through, take the time to imagine him being torture and being set upon by a large viscous dog that left puncher marks in his head, imagine what that must have felt like for a 17 month old boy. Imagine his screams of pain and living in fear everyday, imagine that within a 17 month old boy then tell yourselves you didn’t let him down. I feel the people and politicians in power who have the ability to make change for the benefit of vulnerable children should also take this time out to reflect on this and not to get caught up in party politics and scoring points to further their careers. At least now baby P can suffer no more.
I did notice today that the paediatrician who examined him two days before he died is now being investigated by the General Medical Council, and has been sacked (or “not had their contract renewed”) by Great Ormond Street hospital. Quite a contrast to Haringey Council’s response.
Hi Julie, Baby P is a seperate case to the one that you are speaking of, that involved a 3 month old baby and three year old boy stabbed to death in Greater Manchester.
Bah, correction. She hasn’t been sacked, she just has to be “supervised” until the enquiry is complete.
she should be sacked!!!!!!!!!
To Ian Joseph
Unfortunately you are right about Social Service kidnapping and it’s so so dangerous. It is why juries are not allowed in family courts and parents are threaten with jail if they dare speak out. It nearly happened to a friend of mine. The Social Services snatched her little boy because he was good adoption material but fortunately she got herself a good solicitor and barrister and got her little boy back. He is 20 now and shudders when he realizes what nearly happened to him. But some poor souls cannot afford solicitors and lose their little ones forever. And poor little innocent mites like poor Baby P are left to rot. This is a serious menace and we need to wake up and do something soon.
>Some may think that torturous punishment is too harsh for the three sickos
No, some people believe torture is wrong full stop.
If you are personally prepared to torture or kill anyone, no matter how vile they may be – what does that make you?
It makes us Human, to want to protect.
Absolutly dispicible, social workers wash their hands like they were not to blame, of course they were, they could have saved the baby!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ive never been so mad at our society, councils tell us what to do yet they cannot even perform the most important job in to taking care and protecting children..sick people, social workers just pretended they didnt see anything..how many more children are safe under the protection of the Haringey council, they need to be sacked!!!!!
Rebecca,
Mouse makes us a valid point. You don’t want to offer protection; you want to exact retribution…there is a world of difference…
A message to ian josephs
In the last 12 months, my wife and I adopted children. In their birth home they were neglected to the point where they suffered speech delay and cognitive impairment. They were also physically abused to the point of hospitalisation. They came from a chaotic, filthy, unstable background.
They have had a horrible start to life, and we have dedicated our lives to giving them the best chance possible. There are thousands more children who do not get adopted, and despite your – I have to say – utterly nonsensical and ignorant rant, the reason they are not adopted is because most social workers see every adoption as a failure, and often wilfully ignore abuse in order to keep children with birth parents, sometimes for years. Which is, once all the smoke has cleared, what happened with baby P.
Opinions like yours, which accuse social workers of taking away children without just cause, are one of the reasons why they are so dogmatically dedicated to maintaining children in damaging circumstances even after clear evidence of that damage is becoming clear. Simply by spouting your ridiculous, ignorant, rather pathetic views, you contribute to every baby P case. You are complicit in these children’s suffering.
My experience of social workers is almost uniformly negative. Their inaction, their dogma, their willingness to set aside credulity, all damage children, and I consider many incompetent. Yet you, and those like you, reinforce their incompetence. Next time you find yourself wanting to blame someone for the harm caused to a child who should have been removed to a safe and loving home, look in the mirror. You disgust me, and I cannot say how grateful I am that my children escaped the fate you would have locked them into.
I am absolutly thrilled ther are so many adoptive parents and and foster parents on this webpage. I assume you all are as you seem to be judging those who are not. sayin things like take this child away. And where should he have gone? foster parents and adoptive paretns are a finite resource and until there is a drastic increase in numbers, childreni n dager will continually not be able to be removed from thier home as there is no where for them to go. but thank you to all you who are adoptive parents, as i assume you must all be.
i feel sick at that i was enjoying every moment with my little girl whilst baby p was being tortured by his mother.if only the people who this little boy needed were there for him then, maybe he would be here today.the evidence of abuse missed or ignored by the social workers involved, puts the good work of truly caring and professional social workers who would of removed baby p at the very first sign of abuse regardless of the “protocol” unmentioned.
I am probably not going to be liked for saying this but I dont actually care. I find this thread almost as upsetting as the crime itself and it shows the recklessness of people who want to politicise this issue. Yes, if there were failures they should be addressed and if those failures were endemic or institutional then that needs to be rectified.
However natural it is to want to hurt back and see people suffer for this but that is not the right response. Yes the ‘hang em flog em’ response is indeed understandable but then again so are most things…that doesnt make them right Dave.
Politicians should lead and rise above in times like this not be using PMQ’s as a forum to grandstand themselves….and not pander to gut reactions and a desire not to protect but to exact revenge….
Ian Joseph states that the baby was not good adoption material because he was not white with blue eyed, in fact he was as the blanked out picture in today’s Sun shows, plus sign their petition to ensure this never happens yet again. Sylvia Henry was implicated in theClimbie case andshould never have continued in her job; she should face misconduct action. I am a civil servant; a colleague was sacked for misconduct for leaving his official phone in his car so why is she still working with vulnerable children after two deaths of children whose cases she was supervising? Incidentally i or any right minded person would have taken Baby P to a place of safety regardless of his colour or condition because he deserved a happy, secure life. This case has been harrowing and upsetting and I am very very angry that this filthy home was considered good enough even without the pieces of him that were missing when he was returned to his abusers for them to have a competition to see who could inflict the most damage on him. That doctor should never treat patients again; is she blind, or stupid? Or just couldn’t be bothered?
I do think that Haringey, the NSPCC and society as a whole should be called to account; these evil people should have been caged for child abuse when he was first seen to be injured, why was this not done? If he had been an animal he woulf d have had more protection under the law and they would have been banned form keeping animals. Why is there a crazy assumption that “parents” should keep the child at all costs when clearly they were the last people who should have had him? Children are a precious blessing and no true parent would see their child hurt; this child had fingernails and tips missing and still he was left with them. Are social workers stupid? It really breaks my heart that they were so gullible and stupid. Some people are evil and they lie- do these social workers not know this? Not read papers or see the news? Not wonder how a child suffers horrific injuries? Why he is always smeared witrh chocolate?Also a surveillance by benefits staff would have shown that [people were living there who were not known to be there, likewise the council should have made themselves aware of who was living at their address. Neighbours must have heard him being battered and known people were living there who should not have been. About 50 % of women claiming as lone parents are not- more scrutiny should be used to ensure that the children of these women are in safe hands- if they are already liars and cheats what else could be going on? We live in a fragmented society fuelled by drink, drugs, porn, violent imagery and greed.This is the consequence.
Please let’s finally stop this. By the way, besides advertising on tv and charging social services to run family centres for them, what does the NSPCC do? They used to have uniformed inspectors like the RSPCA but not any more- why not?
Also why is that 15 year old girl who had an encyclopeadic knowledge of his tortures not get help? She has his blood on her hands and will walk away scot free.
This case will live in my soul forever and I will not sleep easily until the law is changed and we all take responsibility for helping all the countless other Baby Ps. We will never know the true extent of his suffering. He has gone too soon to a better place.Please make it easier for children to be taken to a place of safety and for kind people to adopt or foster them in a loving home- will people please also consider adoption before ivf?I know several lovely people who owe their lives to adoption.
Haringay council and especially that clown shoesmith and her partners in crime should be locked up !! Baby p this time how many more in the future ? There is the whole alphabet A to Z available BUT if these clowns are removed from their jobs at least it reduces the risk of other poor wee children using all the letters of the alphabet in the future !! Poor wee lad , At least your pain and anguish is no more, blees you
BABY P……
Adoption is a wonderful thing if it is voluntary,but a wicked crime if it is forced against the will of parents opposing it in court !
If baby P had been taken into care with a view to future adoption, there is no way that mother would have gone to court to oppose it;She would never have gone near a court !
How to save the lives of children like Victoria Climbé and Baby P ?
Quite simply social workers should act like those in other European countries and concentrate on protecting children from PHYSICAL or SEXUAL ABUSE and severe PHYSICAL INJURIES !
They should stop wasting valuable time and resources taking parents to court ACCUSING THEM OF EMOTIONAL HARM, failing to protect them from witnessing domestic violence (battered women are punished twice as when they report an assault as often as not they lose their children!),failing to work with so called “professionals” poor school attendance, an untidy or cluttered house,.If the “SS” concentrated on protecting children from physical harm and ignored all these other issues thousands of lives would be saved !
It’s only common sense ,but that is the quality most lacking in our deplorable social service system !
IAN JOSEPHS
Anyone feeling powerless in the face of tragedy, here’s one small thing you can do.
One of the Lib Dem MPs, John Hemming, has just proposed a parliamentary Early Day Motion about child protection, calling for an independent enquiry into the whole system. Basically, if other MPs agree they will sign it.
You can find the motion and a list of the MPs who have signed it here:
http://tinyurl.com/58qvcy
Keep checking back, and if your MP doesn’t sign it, contact them and tell them why they should. You can find out who your MP is and how to contact them here:
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/
I too like everyone else am sickened by the Baby P case.
I have just rang Haringey Council this morning and have spoken to this Shoestring person’s p.a. – asking why she still has a job AND ASKING HER TO CALL ME BACK SO I CAN TELL HER EXACTLY WHAT I THINK – I urge others to do the same!! This isn’t right and action needs to be taken NOW!!
what ever happened to the health vistors that visited mums till the kids where at school?cut backs! yes we have nursary now so we could have health vistors more involved in the ynder threes.things didnt happen so much years ago.i think also the social workers should be mums not young and single they dont understand the mother if they havent been there do they?more checks for the under threes through gps the people who know the family.lets not allow these babys suffer any more lets get action plans now.Not wait till next april funding.Families must see things?childline is there we all have a duty to these little kids.in schools action plans are there to safe guard kids also with child minders and nursary so lets bridge the gap . The under threes should be monitored and if they are not attending toddlers groups this should flag up ,maybe mum needs help,maybe if these supports where free to under threes.YOUR ARE MP YOU GET HIGH WAGES!THEN START PROTECTING OUR KIDS PLEASE?HOW MANY MORE LITTLE LIVES WILL BE LOST?WHATS YOUR PLAN?WHERE IS THE ACTION?
we could go on forever sayin how sick and discusting this is which i must say i totally agree but what sould happen to these monsters?? the death penalty? To me that is just an easy way out these people will not suffer how they should so no i dont agree with that…. prison?? in prison they will be fed waterd and clothed which is all better treatment than poor poor baby p recived and if they were to eventually get out they would most likley recive a new identity just like maxine car and the james bulger killers so no thats not right it discusts me that what ever happens to these people justice for baby p and every other child that suffers abuse will never come. these people need to be treated like the scum that they are they deserve to be tourted every day for the rest of there lives just as baby p was these people need to live in fear for there lives without being able to speak out just like baby p with the services available to help turning a blind eye just like baby p…. is this going yo happen NO so there we have it these people will never get what they deserve so they are never going to pay for what they have done… and as for the workers involved with this case including the doctor you obviously are not capable of your duties so yes there is no doubt you should be sacked.. and last but not least i read somewere that the doctor used the perthetic excuse that she failed to notice injuries because this kind of thing didnt happen in her country!!! well i cant put into words what i think to that comment…
baby p my thoughts and prayers are with you god bless your soul and be happy with your angels xxxxxxxx
Social Services are ment to help children arnt they… if you ask me the Social Services palyed a part in his deaf. REST IN PEACE LITTLE MAN NO MORE PAIN WERE YOU ARE NOW!!
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Like everyone else, I am shocked and disgusted by the story of Baby P’s life and death. I abhorr the bullies who launched such a lengthy and savage attack on a defenceless child, I worry about doctors who fail to diagnose broken backs, and I fail to understand social workers who think this is not their problem. What I would say, though, is that our nation’s children are our collective responsibility. We all have a duty to look out for them, whether they are our own children, grandchildren, nephews, nieces, or whether they are the children of neighbours or our own childrens’ school friends. If more of us had the guts to stand up to the bullies who attack toddlers, and insisted on our voice being heard with the police, the social services and the doctors,
perhaps fewer children would be forced to live such benighted lives or suffer such horrific deaths.
I have cried many tears for Baby P.
All a child wants is to be loved! The thought of what that poor child went through, possiably not sleeping through fear of what was going to happen next, finally slept forever the night he was killed.
I can only offer the one solution of an eye for an eye – bring back the death penalty for such crimes and leave this country free of the people who feel they have the right to take the innocent life of a child!
My heart bleeds for all the children who suffer under the care of their own parents. I blame the mothers, they should know with the instinct a mother is given when she becomes a mum that it is not right to abuse your flesh and blood. Take the child to a police station or Doctors and leave it to be taken into care surely a better option than suffering and death.
i think that wat happened to baby P[deleted] is disgusting!!!!
i am 15 yrs old and i am already considering whether or not to trust my midwife wen i am at the rite age for kids.
it had both me and my mum in tears 2 even fink bout wat that poor innocent defenceless child was put thro! as a abuse victim from my dad, i feel that social services shud do more bout kids in dangerous situations. my auntie had her kidstaken off her because she was always taking and picking her kids up late for skl! they lived on the otha side of town to where the nearest skl was!!!!
she now hasnt seen her kids for almost 6 yrs now!! 2 fink dat dat sweet lil boy cud hav been saved by all those ppl! even the police warned “ss” bout [deleted] behaviour!!
i jus hope that they suffer in jail just like they made him suffer in his jail, his home!!!!
R.I.P P[deleted], may god keep u outta harms way!!
i just wish that the social services and the same hospital learnt their mistakes from the Victoria Climbee murder!!!!
NB: this comment has been edited to delete names. Stephen Tall, Editor, http://www.libdemvoice.org
sleep well little man no more pain xxxx . and four his mother she should be locked up four life
I can’t stop looking at the info and pictures on baby P and crying, I have an 8 month old baby boy and i look at his little face and his innocence and it Just makes me cry so much for Baby P, all he wanted is love nothing more and nothing less, how could they hurt him, with him looking back at them in the face with his innocent eyes, He is now in place where no one and nothing can harm him but it is so sad that it had to come to that, it makes me want to quit my job and help babies like this as its effected me in such a big way!!, RIP Baby P, god rest your soul may you now be at peace
xxxx
The poor baby! I am a mother of 2 and 1 on the way! I would never ever hit my children yes I discipline them but they don’t deserve to be hit by a bigger harder person! The social workers and doctors are as much to blame for this poor baby P. If a child has an accident and is taken to hospital to be checked out then a couple of days later a health visitor calls. So why didn’t they see fingertips missing, a ripped ear and Baby p must have been in a lot of pain from the broken bones??? Why wasn’t this baby taken into care, taken to a safe place? This baby would still be alive if the doctor & social workers had done their job! There are many loving couples out there that cant have children! I had fertility treatment for my children! They would give a child love & support! Then there are evil women & men who torture a gift they are given! Take the privilege away! Take away her uterus & ovaries & the men’s testis! That way they never ever have a chance to hurt or kill another child!
Rest in peace with the other angels Baby P x
Darrell, of course you’re right, we Lib Dems cannot condone meeting violence with violence, as some (certainly not all) of the posters on this thread have suggested. I did say that on my earlier post.
All I was trying to get across was – Yes, a lot of people who don’t normally post here have found this thread. That’s a good thing. We Lib Dems should be prepared to listen. We mustn’t just sneer at people who mis-spell, as one previous poster did.
Yes, instant “solutions” may be dangerous. But something needs to be changed, and that has to mean people taking personal responsibility for their role in this disaster. That’s a message that our posters have sent to us, loud and clear.
Dave,
I think we are all united that we want to see something happen, that things need to be changed. I was just rather alarmed by the tone of some of this debate and see some danger in it to be honest and that why I was tacking against the ‘understandable’ line.
I would not sneer at people who misspell; hell, I do it on occasions but I think it is right at this time to urge actions but also cool the temperature as it were; especially when this is now being broadened out by right wing commentators into, for example, attacks on the welfare state.
People should be taking responsibility but frankly, if I was in that council and read any of this thread, I would find a bunker given the tone of some comments here.
sick bastards they are, the social workers and doctors are as much to blame for this aswell, they allowed it to carry on. let the mother and the two men be stoned and tortured to death in public, r i p baby p the angels are with you now.
sack the social workers and the doctors, why the hell should we pay our taxes for them now.
I dont agree with capital punishment, but I definatly dont agree with beating defensless children even more, because we dont have such severe punishments anymore to fit severe actions, nobody cares anymore, because its all about fines, bail, short prison sentences, which lets face it, prison isnt excatly hard core anymore, that also has become soft, all this human rights stuff protecting them, but correct me if im wrong in saying, but didnt these people fore fit their rights when taking another life? and where are the human rights to protect these children? lost amongst paper work you ll most probably find, the law needs to change, we need stricter guidelines back, we also need to stop the goverment pouring our money into paying smokers to quit smoking, paying over weight parents for walking their children to school and paying for drug users to obtain drugs for their addition in a safe manner, i would much rather see our money being put into stopping this happening now to children and in the future.
Rest in Peace Baby P
Firstly I am so disgusted with those 3 ‘cowards, who ‘tortured’ this poor little ‘defenceless’ little boy for most of his life. I think about the excruciating amounts of pain and fear he must have gone through, while incompetent selfish people, the doctors and social workers just brushed it all off. How ‘DUMB’ do you have to be to not notice all those injuries, missing part of a finger, finger nail pulled off etc etc. I have suffered broken ribs and believe me its painful, to suffer 8 broken ribs and a broken back and then be punched so hard as to have your neck damaged I cannot even imagine!!!!
Why now are they ‘protecting’ baby P with not realising his name or more importantly the name/pictures of the mother / boyfriend to the public, I do not understand. Justice is not just sending them to prison, it is for them to FEAR and receive the same physical violence /pain they administered to this poor ‘defenceless’ baby. I pray they get constant ‘payback’ in prison and when all 3 eventually get released after the pathetic ‘manslaughter’ charge, they are hunted down!!!
To that poor boy one foot tall looking up at a 6’4” abuser, would be like for one of us looking up at 24ft brute, can you imagine the fear of this poor boy, let them feel the same and more!!!
Why oh why does the law protect these type of people!!!!!! It’s the weak punishment which does not deter such crimes in the first instance.
I completely agree with you Si
so many people have said about others not noticing what was happening to poor baby p. The problem is if you phone the ss and not give your name they do not follow it up, how do we know how many phone calls people made that where ignored. I read that baby p went to a childminder, as a minder myself there is no why i would let that child out of my care and give him back to the parents until something was done. I would get done for kidnap myself if it came to it, but i would feel so guilty and responsible for the death of the poor baby. The whole situation disgusts me. I know it wont happen but i believe that the horrible people should have done to them exactly what they did to him. And apparently she is 3 months pregnant? what a joke.
To any police person or lawyer . Does the apparant abject failure of social workers , medical services and others in the case of baby P not deserve investigation with a view to prosecution of those involved on the grounds of CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE . Will the investigation team sent by Ed Balls have the power to make recommendations to the CPS that there is apparantly a prima facia case of negligence by one or more than one of the people involved . TWO children stabbed to death in another case where social services were “aware” of problems THIS APPEARS TO BE SYSTEMIC INCOMPETENCE
Things like this happen, the majority agree that it is an outrage and wrong to treat a child in that way and as such there are agencies such as SS, Doctors, Child Protection Boards and a large network of ‘professionals’ who will often do their very best to provide reports to back up the Local Authority.
Nothing will bring this child back, it’s too late, accept it, the world isn’t the place we would like it to be and we don’t have control over everyone, that’s a fact.
A lot of energy is being wasted blaming the authorities, but in reality, just like you, they can’t be everywhere all at once, they’re not perfect and mostly incompetent working in systems that are difficult and inflexible.
Children belong to their community; they are their parents responsibility and that of the local community. The more we ‘blame’ professionals the more we move our community responsibilities away from ourselves. It’s very easy to blame others – if everyone reading this isn’t guilty of ingoring their own community in some way then I’d be surprised.
So don’t sit here moaning, be nice to your neighbours, visit them, support them, spend time together and there will be less isolated unsupported parents who end up in such a screwed up mess.
Social workers do not like to get things wrong but they often do, they don’t have time and can cause far more harm than good, this is why some families hate them, and rightly so, they have been done an injustice because of the pressure to always do the right thing.
Think about it – do whatever you can yourself – meet the neighbours and do your bit for your own community because ‘professionals’ can not be relied upon; this has been proven time and time again.
Its great how so many people are villifying not the murderers but the social workers, when they are yet to have even completed any sort of enquiry, these social workers do an invaluable near impossibly poorly paid job to try and save lives.
what do any of you do all day to be so pompous.
for shame.
i have a little boy the same age as baby p and it has disgusted me to think his own mother could allow this. to think what that poor child had bin through. the proffesional s who let him down all need sacking. they were the only people who could of helped him and they did not even do that. police social services doctors all these people need lose there responsibiltys. as for his mum and so called step dad they need to be tortured the way they hounded and beat this poor defenseless child.
Sack all the incompetent SS team involved, right up to the councillor with responsibility for oversight.
http://www.facebook.com
How can this just be ‘just’ manslaugher? If this had been a gangland killing, all involved would be under a murder charge.
The death of this poor baby was a collective ‘effort’ by the mother and step-dad. How could any solictor defending them think otherwise??
how can you listen to a woman who watches even joins in beating her chil you cant get awhe pooay with that amagine how much pain he must of been in rubing chocolate on the cuts the poor baby had a broken back forgodness sakes what was there excuse of th broken back “i acidently flung him across the room or some thing i feel sorry for the baby the mother that gave birth to beated up her own flesh and blood its sick
i agree, we could blame the ss until we are blue in the face but the fact is that these 3 people are the ones who did this terrible thing to the defencless baby and i hope they burn for it, seemly the mother has had another baby already in prison
she shouldn’t be allowed to bare anymore children she should be striped of all her ovaries and womb! i don’t think i have ever hated anyone before but the hatred i feel for these 3 people especially the “stepfather” i’d go to jail myself for the damage i’d do to him!
This story breaks my heart and makes me feel ill.
That poor little creature…
A fact that has been missed is that the child had a biological father . This would explain why this beautiful child (we now have a full picture)could not be adopted.
I sincerely hope this isn’t another case of the child being left with the abusing parent while the non-abuser tries frantically to obtain custody while every conceivable obstacle is put in his path by Social services. I have a terrible feeling that there is far more information to come out of this case. Let us hope that that information is not stifled by more injunctions.
Justice, Justice, Justice. for BABY P. That means all the people who failed him called to account. Justice demands it. The creature who passed for his mother cannot be human, and her partners in this horrendus crime must pay for ever for this sustained assault on a defenceless infant. As a father and grandfather I am sure I speak for many expressing my horror and disgust at this sorry failure of the established care system. Do not wait for these people to resign but dismiss them at once. How many more of our children must suffer at the hands of evil people such as those. When a child comes on the radar as a possible victim every care must be taken to remove it from harms way at once. Better making a mistake which can be rectified than another BABY P.
BRING BACK CAPITAL PUNISHMENT!!!
THESE PEOPLE ARE COWARDLY ANIMALS AND NEED TO BE WIPED OFF OF THIS EARTH.
SCUM LIKE THAT DONT DESERVE ANY RIGHTS AT ALL.I WANT TO SEE THEIR FACES,KNOW THEIR NAMES I WANT THEM TO KNOW THAT WHEN THEY GET OUT OF PRISON(HOPEFULLY AS TORMENTED AND TORTURED AS BABY P)THEY WILL HAVE TO LOOK OVER THEIR SHOULDERS EVERY MINUTE OF THE DAY!!!!WE WILL ALL BE WATCHING THEM!!!
This moronic mother and her two evil accomplices should not have protected identities. They should be named and shamed. The magnitude of this crime merits capital punishment.
Unfortunately, all we can hope for is a lengthy sentence and maybe some fellow cons will do us all a favour and administer justice.
This child should have been removed to a place of safety long before events took place. The authorities failed baby P and they too should pay the ultimate price.
Firstly… i want to say i am only 14 and i am guessing that the majority of you are adults. This just proves this story has affected everybody, everywhere, of all ages. It is horrific. I want to say SI i agree with you totally 100%. Every word you have said is true and you have sumed the whole thing up.
I believe that these 3 vile creatures do not deserve to be able to live the rest of their lifes, even if their lives involve being disasterous.
Yes i know they will get a prison sentence of life most probably but i lets be serious justice is ridiculous these days. Its make me so enthurated to think that when they say life it only means about 20 years. Life in prison should be forever until they die!!
This Poor baby has been put through such torture and therefore these 3 disgustingly vicious creature should be tortured back. I use the word creatures because for any human beings to act this way they should not be thought of as people as our equals. And for any religious peopole here, how can go say we are all equal?, how can we be thought of as the same as these people? well we can’t. They are not like us one BIT.
And i know i am contridicting myself now because i did say they they that should be in prison until they die or just be killed but i believe they should be killed but in the most painful way ever. They should be viciously beaten every day until they are so weak they can’t physically move. I am not going to go into detail because it is not needed.
Secondly… social services, haha. They are such a joke, call themself people that produce good and help when they are needed, WEL QUITE FRANKLY IT’S A LOAD OF RUBBISH. They can’t even do their job so why should they be getting paid?
All these questions that can’t be answered because they know they have done wrong. 60 Times the ss had been to see Baby p and are you seriously telling me they didnt notice a thing? Well the truth is yes they did they just chose to ignore it and why was this. Laziness. Yes a letter was sent from a social worker to the MPs explaining the issue that they were aware of but nothing was done so why not try and try again?
Well all i can say is that this is the most horrific, disgustingly, revoltingly,creul and vile thing that could have happened to this baby.
This child had a right to live.
Well all i can say is REST IN PEACE BABY P and god bless you.
Yet again I am going to flirt with a deluge of unpopularity
. Firstly, it is worth noting that the calls for ‘capital punishment for this case’ show exactly where they actually come from; a desire for revenge.
Revenge is great because it satisfies primal desires within us to hurt back those who have hurt us but it is usually a dish served cold because the sense of satisfaction lasts for all of five seconds because it doesnt actually change the crime that was committed and bring anybody back.
Secondly, it errr doesnt really work as a deterrant…
Actually, I want to ask this question to anybody who posts here….do you honestly think that the thought of the death penalty would have deterred these 3, obviously messed-up to say the least, individuals from doing anything??
Of course it wouldnt have…
TO MOUSE,
I’d appreciate it if this did not turn into personal attacks.
I’m a very tolerant person but the crime that these cowards committed was sickening, and it proves that there is something seriously wrong with them.
Capital punishment would ensure that they never get out of prison and will never have the chance to do anything like this again. They tortured and killed a child, and they could do it again.
Jenny,
Of course there is something seriously wrong with them…so your solution when something is wrong is to smash it??
Also, as I understand it the female is pregant…would the state sponsored murder of that innocent (after all it can’t choose who it’s parents are) make things better???
as long as we have councils (local authorities ONLY accountable to themselves and no-one else they will carry on murdering children, as long as they are not their own children!!!
i am a social worker myself and i tell you we get more than enough pay so it is not about low paid job. is it not time that a revolution was made and people who want to do social work must do it not for only money but because they want to.
let us be real here. yes these adults/parents are bad but BABY P should never have remained on register list for such a long time. She should have been ‘in care’.
For the Director to say, “no-one will be suspended!!!! she should go go go.
Brown should go too. I will never vote him again or his party.
for experts such as hill and NSPCC who say senior managers (i think they mean Chief Executives), “have a lot to do and cannot possibly keep an eye on every child.” but my lord, that is why they get so highly paid jobs. if they cannot keep an eye on each and every child in their borough, they should not take up their well-paid jobs, they should go go go.
It is time that we all don’t just moan but act. let us do something. someone tell me what i can do!!!!!!
Darrell
The child was born in jail so that argument is out the window!
What punishment do you feel would fit the crime? A few years in jail then get out and carry on with normal life again? It’s happened before with previous cases, and it shouldn’t be allowed to happen.
These cowards would never be able to have a normal life outside anyway. Their crime would always be remembered, as it should be!
To be honest, I don’t have the time to wade through all these 101 comments, most of which appear to be variations on the same theme.
Oddly enough, the point that bothers me most about this case is the anonymity given to two of the three perpetrators. Why has the court agreed to this?
Convicted criminals who have undergone the public humiliation of all their friends, neighbours and colleagues knowing what they have done will feel justifiably aggrieved.
And so will future partners.
Would YOU want to father a child with this woman? I certainly wouldn’t, which is why I’d like to know who she is.
Jenny,
Well actually I am afraid it doesnt because how scarring in later life will it be for that child to learn it’s biological parents were put to death. You are visiting the sins of the parents on that child. I mean it’s going to have a tough life as it is. All this is deeply ironic when supporters of this punishment claim to want to protect children as is the support of anybody for capital punishment who claims to want to protect life.
The whole point is that no punishment could ever fit this crime. The point of punishment isn’t to ‘fit the crime’ as in ‘you take my eye, I take yours’ kind of way. The point of any punishment is to chastise and then pave the way for correction.
Sesenco,
I’d imagine because they have read this thread lol….
BTW, how did these unemployable parasites succeed in obtaining the tenancy of such a large flat? They surely couldn’t have raised the deposit for a private tenancy, or passed a letting agency credit check? If they were HA or LA tenants, how did they climb the waiting list so quickly? Did the lady concerned have the child because she was too lazy to use contraception, or was it a ploy to scrounge state benefits?
I think the public is entitled to know the answers to such questions, and these will be forthcoming only if they are NAMED.
How can the authorities who ignored this problem can live with themselves,they are partly responsible for this poor boy’s fate.
Time and time again we hear that lessons will be learnt from this sort of mistake yet we are still experiencing something that should never happen in 21st Century Britain.
God help anyone who complains about social workers through the laughingly named “Independent complaints procedure”
Social care in this country may be good in occasional cases but is generally very poor.
Rest in Peace Baby P xxx
As I say on my blog…’I smell the unmistakeable ordour of fires being stoked and witches being hunted’….
Everything you say Sesenco suggests to me that the court took the right descision….
Supporters of capital puinishment need to ponder the irony of pouring scorn on ‘evil’ people while at the same time braying for their blood…and then the mystery of how such people exist in society may start to have a little light shed on it…
I am sat watching my 2 year old daughter play with her daddy (the joy of late night tea partys), I’m looking at my daughter and thinking how blessed am I to have helped to create such a wonderful human being who god willing will add/ benefit this world. At the same time I am wondering what kind of monster/animal could do the horrific things that baby P’s mother did??
I dont want to hear about a poor background (i am one of six, my mother was a single parent and i am mixed race), I dont want to hear about the uneducated or any othe PC rubbish…what we are talking about is one basic natural instinct which is quite simple..a mothers love!! better still a understanding of love.
I’m sick of living in a country that locks up a bank robber longer than they will lock up a child abuser or granny basher (ask me which i’d choose given the chance, id choose to live next door??!!), a country that no longer seems to care about it’s own…..
Incidentally, before people start I put ‘evil’ in inverted commas because i reject it’s somewhat metaphysical connotations not because I dont think what these people did was deplorable and disgusting. It was but as a society and a civilisation we cannot reduce ourselves to the level of deplorable acts just to satisfy our own sense of powerlessness…and thrist for revenge…
*wasn’t..trying to wash up and type really isnt good
Well Just when I thought I couldn’t cry anymore for this baby. I read Jenny’s post about him dying all alone and again my heart bleeds. Further more there is the fact that after sustaining a broken back by god knows what method he then got punched so hard he swallowed a tooth. I cry my heart aches what sort of evil sadistic f*ck is this w*nker who should be fed his own shit and vomit all day long. The mother’s womb should be ripped out hung in front of her to see and pelted with rotten eggs. She herself should be kept alive by artificial methods to witness this for a hundred years.
No punishment is good enough for this bunch of Hindley /brady followers. Bring back the death penalty but please give them to the public first>!!
Disgraceful Why did no-on eon earth help this poor baby. Please God WHY?????????????????????????????????????????????????
RIP Baby p Safe with the angels now!
Oh dear shouty Lorraine – you’re right to be angry about what happened and you’re right to be appalled that people tortured and killed a toddler. But do you not see the contradiction in calling for torture and murder of the perpetrators.
Torture and murder is either wrong or it isn’t – it can’t be both at the same time.
“Everything you say Sesenco suggests to me that the court took the right descision”
I disagree. Serious offenders should always be named.
To quote Lord Hewart CJ in R v Sussex Justices ex parte McCarthy [1924] 1 KB 256, 259: “justice should not only be done, but should manifestly and undoubtedly be seen to be done.”
Who knows how many people could have assisted the court if the identities of the defendants had been published? How many additional crimes of theirs remain undetected?
And what if Mr X and Miss Y were innocent? How would anyone be able to publicise their case? Would the Birmingham Six and the Guildford Four ever have been released if there was a court order preventing anyone disclosing their identities?
Which is more dangerous? Brainless slobs who have children, or secret courts?
BTW, I am opposed to capital punishment, but I am in favour of depriving people like these two of the ability to have more chidlren.
To Darrel The reason such people exist is the negative crap that keeps getting fed into our media. The mother herself was a porn addict on the net. The Brute a nazi collector. Need I say more..
People want revenge because the baby was helpless, defenceless and at the mercy of its captives who had none. If you had children which I am sure you do not you would be horrified and want some form of revenge too./ Either way if you do or don’t, it doesn’t matter. Death Penalty is not coming back and certainly won’t be back in time for this lot.Which is a matter of fact too good for them. People need release from the grief and anger they feel. So get off your mighty pedastal and get REAL!
Anyway I say why should they be released by death. I say let them rot in prison and let the inmates get hold of them.
Thats good enough revenge for me.
An outlet for anger is needed. So let people grieve in the way they need to about this dreadful dreadful case of abuse, starvation, torture, unimaginable cruelty pain and disgrace.
I put a petition online to G. Brown and it was rejected. There no wonder people want capital punishment when the normal channels don’t work!
Sesenco,
I can see your point about secret courts but surely the reason they took this descision was to avoid the prospect of a lynch mob……?
Lesley,
There is a complex relationship between a society which creats a media which gives it what it wants and how media shapes society…its by no means a one way street…
I think it’s perfectly natural that people want revenge but I cant countenence letting my gut govern my politics…I am being real. I am opposed to capital punishment on a point of principle, I am arguing against people who support it…what could be more real than that?
Why am I the ONLY contributor on this site to propose a solution to the growing frequency of tortured children? Here once again is the solution for those few who are more interested in resolving the situation rather than wreaking vengeance on the criminals responsible !
Legally FORBID the taking of children (with expensive court hearings,) for the usual trivial causes of “emotional abuse”,”poor school attendance,”"a cluttered house or flat”,”failing to work with professionals”,or “witnessing (but not physically harmed by ) domestic violence”
This would leave the “SS” legally obliged to concentrate only on those children sufferig severe physical harm or neglect.They would then have the manpower and financial resources to do a proper job in eliminating long term torture and abuse of children. This is what they do in other European countries and it’s about time we did likewise !
Ian,
I have to take you to task on one thing; emotional abuse is by no means ‘trivial’ and can be just as damaging as physical abuse….
Lesley Heron wrote:
“The mother herself was a porn addict on the net. The Brute a nazi collector.”
And where did they get the money to pursue these interests? Not the £60 per week they each scrounged off the state, surely?
Oh, but we can’t inquire into such matters, because the court has issued a blanket injunction prohibiting anyone from disclosing their identities.
It isn’t Mr X and Miss Y who are having the black bag pulled over their heads, it is OPEN JUSTICE.
Darrell, you are wasting your breath. These people are angry and sounding off, and you will never persuade them, however hard you try.
What we can usefully do on this thread, however, is raise a number of alarming issues. The failure of the system is one of these. Open justice is another. But I have yet to hear people talking about it; and that worries me.
Lesley,
Incidentally, if people want to do something then I do believe Alix posted links with practical suggestions for lobbying…far more constructive than braying for the letting of more blood I would suggest….
IM 14, FROM SOUTH LONDON AND IN CARE
AND FROM MY EXPERIENCE SOCIAL SERVICES ARE MORE LIKELY TO TAKE THE PEOPLE THAT DONT REALLY NEED TO BE TAKEN IN THAN THE PEOPLE WHO DESPRATLEY NEED TO BE TAKEN IN
I HAVE FRIST HAND EXPERIENCE IN THAT
Sesenco,
I totally disagree. Yes they are…but as people have already pointed out alot of non-political people are visiting this site…what better time to actually defend our politics, rather than rather opportunistically keep quiet when people are supporting things we dont and let them think ‘oh we are on your side, we will just raise alarming issues’??
Maybe it wont make us popular but I feel its right.
Well said rebecca Fisher and Si.
Darrell, you haven’t read my posts. I have just articulated the most cogent argument there is against capital punishment: that we cannot trust the state to hang the right person. If we move to a system of secret trials where the identity of the defendant is not made public, we may never be in a position to know if the right person has been convicted. The instant case looks to me like the first faltering step on a slippery slope. Yet all you can do is utter the condescending sleight against ordinary people that they cannot be trusted with information. That is an argument deployed by every tyrant in history.
I would urge those who know the identities of Mr X and Miss Y to do what Paul Foot did to Colonel Hugh Johnston (a secret prosecution witness at the ABC Trial). NAME THEM.
Darrel,
what I meant about getting real, was that you need to overstand people are venting their grief and anger.As for the politics of capital punishment I am neither against or for. I am neutral. I believe setting up a resistance creates a force for opposition.
I will look further into lobbying Thank You. And whilst I do not ask for the scum to be got to in prison, its a known fact that people like that are usually disliked intensely by some prisoners.
I only hope they are locked up for life with no release. And to Senesco.The fact they are saying the “mother” could get 14 years would mean she would be 41 if she served all her sentence therefore hopefully too old to concieve further naturally. Hopefully you wouldn’t have to worry about conceiving with her.
However (AS is more likely the case) if she got released early for (good behaviour)!!!! you may well be unfortunate enough to run into her on a dark night or day for that matter, but you would never know because like you say they are keeping her identity secret. I wonder does this mean they will give her a new identity like that girlfriend of the janitor who molested and murdered these other two babes.?
new identity and possible plastic surgery at our expense.!
Darrell ,really? If baby P had suffered emotional abuse instead of physical torture he would still be alive today which proves it to be less damaging!
Added to which emotional abuse is difficult to define in practical terms and accusations of risk of emotional buse are impossible for parents to defend themselves against when confronted in court with highly paid experts making prophecies !
We all suffer emotional abuse at some time or other it’s called “living” but it’s much easier to survive that than the broken limbs and skull fractures that should be the real targets of social workers and all private citizens to eliminate for good !
IAN
Sensco: judging from the media reports, Baby P has at least one brother or sister. I guess that’d be why the court order for secrecy has been made.
Keeping his parents’ names secret is giving the brother/sister some privacy and respect, and goodness me they will I’m sure find growing up hard enough without being allowed to make their own choices in the future about who or what to tell.
It is amazing how much can be done and said after a child dies in terrible circumstances, and how little before? I think Child Protection should be taken away from Social Services and given to a new body attached to the Police. Your average detective in that house for 10 minutes would have had a pretty good idea of what was going on. Social Services, alas, were part of the problem. Your average caring grandmother would have known the difference between a mother who was loving and ensuring no harm came to her child (because that is what mothers are supposed to do) and one who wasn’t. Which then leads to the question why Social Services at all? The Police would have been investigating a crime – because that is what it was. If 3 people abused then tortured and finally murdered me, that is what they would have been tried for and found guilty of. Why should a child under the present system have less rights that I have for justice? Social Services are no doubt well meaning but in these cases worse than useless. Let the Police handle these abuse enquiries and perhaps Baby P would have had better protection.
Sesenco,
That is a valid point against it but by no means the most ‘cogent case’. I am intellectually (it doesn’t work and is prone to error etc,etc) and morally (an eye for an eye is not justice, you cant defend the sanctity of life and take one etc,etc) 110% opposed to capital punishment in any case.
Obviously I am not the only person who is concerned that we are not engaging with these issues….witness the comments of Dan and Emily near the top. Are our politics really that weak that when people challenge them with a legitmate feeling of anger our response is effectively to try and change the subject because engaging with it is a waste of time?
I think things have gone on too long on this thread unsaid to be honest…for example, making abusive phone calls to Sharon Shoesmith is wrong…..encouraging others to do so is wrong..
As the week goes on I find myself unable to think of anything else but this child and the others like him who are failed so terribly by every layer of the agencies and departments set up to protect them from harm.
I can hardly bear to think of his suffering and the utter loneliness he must have felt. He was a little baby, a defenceless child who had bearly learnt to walk before he had his back broken and his beautiful face mutilated.
I feel such overwhelming anger and such helplessness to affect real change to save others like him. I have written to my MP and Government ministers, I have signed every petition I can find and written numerous comments on sites like these but what good will it do?
All we can do is keep making a noise about this case. Don’t let it be forgotten or brushed aside. Keep lobbying everyone with influence until something is done.
how could anyone rip off babys nails how could doctors not see theat he was beeing abused i still cant get it though my head why would you want to do that anyway that is so sick esepially to a cute and loveable little boy arrrrr
Gah…
(( I’m just saddened ya know? Just saddened that one little boy that should have had the chance to live just didn’t get it. He’s become yet another stat in our mess of a so civil society. This really shouldn’t have happened, it really shouldn’t.
I think i’ve read one too many of these sorry stories now…
Grrrrrrrr…. is the only thing on my mind.
Helpless, my hands are tied, nothing i can do. Only be sad about the whole sorry state of affairs… i just don’t get it.
(
Mark Pack wrote: “judging from the media reports, Baby P has at least one brother or sister. I guess that’d be why the court order for secrecy has been made.”
Robert Thompson and Jon Venables had siblings, Rosemary West had children (mostly fathered by clients), etc, etc, etc. Yet these killers’ names were made public.
Open justice matters rather more than the feelings of a handful of individuals, I would respectfully suggest.
I dont want my taxes to pay for these people’s existence in jail. That’s why I would like to see baby P’s 3 killers obliterated from this planet. Execute them, i don’t think death’s too good for them – torturing them might be sweet revenge but Darrell’s right – torture is morally wrong no matter who receives it. The best thing to do is get rid of them for good.
I keep having to turn off the radio or tv when the details of baby p come on as I cannot bear to listen to what that little boy had to endure. It fills me with complete terror what that baby had suffered and as a human being how anyone can do that to a defenceless child, I find myself crying through sheer helplessness for his plight.
In the media everyone is blaming the authorities, and YES they had a huge part to play in Baby P’s fate and I feel that Social Workers and other authorities were too complacent and the government MUST review what is going on to examine how robust the procedures are in relation to all the agencies…. where were the health visitors, social workers and other agencies???? why was this child left when so many alarm bells were raised???? Children are not numbers or cases to process – they are real lives that need individual consideration and not matter what the bureaucratic cost!
I know as a mother and as a normal human being that there are gut instincts about situations when you come into contact with them and it ASTOUNDS me that not one of the professionals considered that this baby was at extreme risk, ALL of the authorities that had contact with that child should be examined. Also in my view EVERYONE who had contact with that baby should hang their heads in shame, whether it was other family members, ‘friends’, neighbours or even people who may have any other contact with baby P at the local shop and thought that something wasn’t right are to blame. As a society we are to quick to say it is nothing to do with us…but we all have a responsibility to raise any concerns we have…. WE CANNOT ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN TO ANOTHER CHILD. As a mother I can’t comprehend the wickedness of these so called ‘adults’….rest in peace and god bless his little soul.
And to hang with our ‘PC’ culture – I hope those responsible endure what is left of their miserable lives and forever after as torment and misery.
IT did not surprise me in the slightest that these obscene people did next to nothing work wise, probably claiming benefits off the state no doubt. Also, did the social services people not question why they had a dangerous dog ie Rottweiler with a young child? We have seen the end result of those cases before.. These people make me sick. I hope that they will be treated horribly in prison and can never be allowed in the same room as another child. These people should be steralised. But I am sorry I do not want MY taxes being spent on these people. Bring back Capital punishment for these sick people, we have the technology these days to prove cases, even if too late, but justice can be done. The Bible said “eye for an eye tooth for tooth” so karma says if one takes a life, one should be punished.That way, justice is done and our taxes are not spent on sick people and can be spent on worthwhile cases and charities for children who need it. RIP BABY P. X
Louise,
Dont be under the illusion that the death penalty is just; it isnt. Justice is not just punishment but is also rehabilitation. An ‘eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth’ has nothing to do with justice but everything to do with vengence….
If you want to invoke karma you have a slight problem because there is no human agency in karma…it is the universe that is supposed to ensure ‘what goes around comes around’….
Laura Oh no Death IS too good for these baby killers. also did you not think that in death they would be closer to baby P.. At least let him grow big and strong so he can meet them eye to eye. No the best natural punishment by far would be for us all to pray for their enlightenment to make them become fully conscious of their own vile actions and know that that they were wrong and vile. Knowing that you did something terribly terribly cruel and wrong and have the soul carry that burden and repent and wish you could turn back the clocks but know you can’t would be the best torture for their minds!
Also I would not like to know where they ended up un monitored if we did obliterate them from this planet.
Jonathon Ross and Russell Brand get 30,ooo complaints, eh? Well in the light of this tragedy their gaffe seems a bit daft. I am sorry but I have never felt strongly enough about anything to write in before. When will we admit that our social services is now in the hands of girls with no experience? When will we admit that our social services system is completely useless? Haringey council apologises unreservedly do they? And then we have a mother in Manchester who stabs her two babies! The whole problem is endemic across the social service system, obviously. I’m sorry but different systems and different people need to be put in place very quickly!
Vile Scum. I’ve been reading tomorrow’s newspaper headlines and one actually claimed Baby P’s so called mother (the devil in my opinion) claimed that she would be home for Christmas! What an inbred disgusting remorseless cow.
My best friend is a social worker and if this ever happened under her jurisdiction i’m sure she would hang her head in shame and leave the profession completely.
Also you lot who think torture is wrong, if it was your child?? would you not want them tortured too? No matter how wrong you feel it to be,when you become a parent something (usually) very protective fundamentally changes in you. Me I don’t care if they are tortured or not. I just pray for their enlightenment.
Their own mental torture would be enough for me.
Hi Lesley, well in practical terms I do not want to pay for these people to live so I’d want them dead for that reason. Also, they are a danger to society, and there is always the risk of them doing this again if they get let out early on good behaviour (or after a stupidly short sentence- we all know ‘life’ doesn’t mean life in this country) Unfortunately I don’t think praying’s going to do much good either – how will people this sick and twisted ever become ‘enlightened’ do you think? Are you suggesting spending more of our funds rehabilitating them? Sorry – don’t want to pay for that either. These people aren’t worth the time of day. Get rid of them. (Ashes to ashes, so they wont end up anywhere..)
Enough is enough how many more children have to die.. who is going to be man enough to bring back the death penalty or give US the public the vote to bring it back..when these people go to jail they will still have there human rights well what about poor Baby Ps human rights shame he didnt live to have them………. R.I.P baby P God Bless xx
Just like to say I have lit a candle in baby P’s memory. Now there are published pics we can appreciate his beautiful self.
I am visualising him with all his injuries reversed and receiving healing and love. I am also not sending any more anger to his persecuters. Baby P deserves some peace. He deserves love no more anger and hate. We like I say should pray they become fully conscious of their actions. And stay in prison for the remainder of their lives. What will be will be from then on.
A great consciousness has woken up many due to this tragedy. For that Baby P has truimphed.
I believe and affirm that many changes for the better will follow this tragedy.
RIP sweet angel. I know you are at peace.
Please send light to his sister too.
ALLAH the most merciful ,baby p i love you as for me you are an angel who is hurt by evil and i promise you my little soul ALLAH give me chance so i take a flesh bit by bit from their bodies who hurt you and dont let them die as each day i punish so they be in hell of pain till they live if i got the power i show you my angel how to bring justice not this system of U.K as my ALLAH say if some one kill than justice is to kill back ALLAH be with you rest your soul in peace AMEEN
Laura,
Leave the “getting people enlightened to the external forces” If your beliefs are not of that way then so be it. You are entitled to hold your views, that is the soceity we live in, but if we want to create a more tolerant just and loving one like the type baby P a new born soul should have expereinced we must all try and overcome our anger and hatred in wanting someone dead. It just keeps perpetuating more hate and more deaths. And more shedding of innocent blood.
I do not think we should offer them rehab, nor do I think their time in prison will be soft. I think they may get it whether we like it or not at the hands of other prisoners.
A salam aleekum Shahid,
Bismillah ar Rahman ar Rahim,
What verse and chapter are you quoting from the Holy Koran?
Sorry there’s a lot of nonsense being written here – firstly you don’t have to be a parent to feel anger and anguish at the poor soul’s treatment. And secondly there are a number of parents on here (myself included) who don’t wish torture or death on anyone (adult or child) – so please don’t try and make this an argument about not understanding parental reaction – we do, but we disagree with torture and killing full stop.
Laura,
You will end up paying your taxes for something along the line in any case…the necessary long stay on death row, the appeals process and the eventual execution…..the notion that you can just pull a gun out and kill them is nonsense…there has to be due process especially in a case you want ot make a capital one….
WHY ???
Nathalie
Because society would destroy itself if we had execution without legal process. This is why we have law. If we could just lop off a limb or kill people to redress a wrong, without a legal process, we wouldn’t have a society. We would have a perpetual war.
Or to put it another way, if you have a system where people can be executed without a legal process, that means that someone some day may use that very power to execute YOU without a legal process.
You might think, “They wouldn’t, I haven’t done anything wrong.” But you’re depending on the current legal system to define what is “wrong”. How do you know what you might get implicated in? How do you know what innocent activity of yours may end up being made a crime? And how do you know mistakes wouldn’t be made? Remember that story about the lynch mob who went after a paediatrician because they thought that meant the same thing as “paedophile”?
Basically, the death penalty is wrong because it’s irrevocable. You can’t undo it. And if the state ever uses it unwisely against someone, then that’s that. That’s why we can’t use it, ever, because what applies to one must apply to all.
Natalie,
I would echo what Alix said but only add that the existence of due process does not totally insure against a wrongful conviction; the presence of scientific evidence does not make the system error proof.
The reality is that if capital punishment is brought back there will be a day when an innocent dies…and suddenly we will all have blood on our hands…
the mother of baby p shud be sterilised or at least if she has any other kids they shud b taken off her str8 away by social services it disgusts me as a mother myself of an 8 month old if that i did anythin 2 harm my baby social services would b str8 on 2 me as 4 baby ps mother and stepdad nothin happened about it is ttly distraceful for wot that poor baby had 2 suffer for i hope the stepdad and the other person rots in hel and does not get out as for the mother i hope wot she gets cumming to her she shud rot in hel and as for doctors that is wot they trained for isnt it looking after people clearly not!!
I have read all the comments on this thread and it’s very disappointing that there is this running argument going on about the death penalty. Particularly from Darrell, who has set himself up as some sort of moral guardian of the rest of us. I am undecided about the death penalty, but even if I was strongly against it, I would find it easy to realise that those who are calling for it are responding to a very natural human emotion for revenge, and an outpouring of grief at the lack of care extended to Baby P which makes people want someone to pay for this. In times such as this there will always be people being emotional, and maybe even saying things they don’t mean because they are so angry and upset. The people who have not managed to show any such emotions so far are the so-called mother and boyfriend, and the social workers who seem more intent on watching their backs and keeping their overpaid jobs. So Darrell, don’t castigate people for being emotional and upset, it’s human.
Angela
We do not want the death penalty. As a society we are far more advanced than that.
As for Ian Josephs comments about the ethnicity of the child – how totally and utterly ignorant.
Angela,
People have called for it; i’m against it, why are you not castigating the people who have used this case to call for its reintroduction? Frankly, I find peoples blood lust just as upsetting so why deny my right to comment?
Its perfectly possible to be upset and not call for the reintroduction of the death penalty or call on others to make harressing phone calls to Sharon Shoesmith…i refer you to these comments;
Dan Says:
15th November 2008 at 12:37 am
Sorry there’s a lot of nonsense being written here – firstly you don’t have to be a parent to feel anger and anguish at the poor soul’s treatment. And secondly there are a number of parents on here (myself included) who don’t wish torture or death on anyone (adult or child) – so please don’t try and make this an argument about not understanding parental reaction – we do, but we disagree with torture and killing full stop.
This is a political site; if people make political points that individuals disagree with then people are well within their rights to respond….and it seems to me there is probably a silent majority reading this who feel like Dan does above…
The standars os Child Protection in the UK is very low compared with the rest of the EU. Social workers are recruited based on those standars hence their IQ.
Mothers who clearly needs social assitance are ignored as this case because there is none! the solution is to penalize the child by removing from the family. Had a in-house assistance be made available then this child would be alive today. Discrimination and segregation among social class in the Uk is still in progress in the UK despite Human Rights Conventions. It is very easy to DIVERT the main responsible for this death which is this GOVERMENT and Gordon Brown. Mothers are always protrayed as the “Criminals” when in fact most of them are emotional unbalanced and this unbalance could be every month. Have you ever heard of a male with MPS?? Endometriosis???. I am positive this mother was very weak and vulnerable in need of attention by SS.
UK the country where the truth lies and the Goverment’s view towards children is totally distorted, unhealthy and dangerous for every child in this country.
Angela,
I also refer you to the comments made by Jay just a moment ago;
Jay Entee Says:
15th November 2008 at 9:04 am
We do not want the death penalty. As a society we are far more advanced than that.
As for Ian Josephs comments about the ethnicity of the child – how totally and utterly ignorant.
I do accept that people are upset but to my mind that doesnt mean ‘anything goes’…incidentally on what Jay says I also think it is totally wrong of Ian to also trivalise the issue of emotional abuse….
Crmen Semanski wrote:
“I am positive this mother was very weak and vulnerable in need of attention by SS.”
Unfortunately, it is unlikely that we will ever be able to arrive at an informed judgment as to this woman’s character, motivations and mental state, because the court has decided to keep her identity secret.
This is the second secret trial for a serious crime I can recall this year. The first was the trial of a Chinese man accused of murdering an elderly writer in Hampstead. In that case, the trial was held in camera because the government claimed that state secrets might be revealed. At least the jury had the good sense to refuse to reach a verdict.
I fear we are heading down the slippery road to Guantanamo justice in this country, and Darrell (apparently) welcomes it.
Physical torture KILLS KILLS KILLS !!!
Emotional abuse does NOT
Poor school attendance does NOT
A cluttered house does NOT
Witnessing domestic violence does NOT
Hostility to the “professionals” does NOT
Where therefore should the “SS” priorities lie?
I’m only asking !!
To all those who would love to but can’t make the march, PLS JOIN
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=39559041804&ref=mf
we will be releasing BLUE BALLOONS AT 12.20 (TIME BABY P DIED) OUTSIDE 10 DOWNING STREET ON 3RD DECEMBER
for everyone who can’t be there. just post them, with your message to
ANGELICA TERZOLI
C/O BARON ESTATES
65 WEYMOUTH STREET
LONDON W1G 8NU
there is a group for a demonstration outside downing street..
DEMONSTRATION OUTSIDE 10 DOWNING ST ON 3RD DEC 2008
(16 months after beautiful Baby P died)
AT 11.35 (time ambulance came)
UNTIL 12.20 PM (time Baby P pronounced dead)
THANK YOU
Ian
Emotional abuse can kill in exrtreme cases; it can lead to people either harming themselves or others….
Poor school attendance can be a symptom of wider issues that need addressing…
I agree about a cluttered house but one would assume it’s on their for the above reason…
Watching domestic violence can be emotionally scarring and also of course if there is a household which there is domestic violence in is that really a safe place for a child??
Hostility to officials is again on there as possibly being symptomatic of wider problems…
That answer your question??
Also, there is a likely correleration between emotional and physical abuse…
No Darrell you did not answer the questio so I will repeat it !
Physical torture KILLS KILLS KILLS !!!
Emotional abuse does NOT
Poor school attendance does NOT
A cluttered house does NOT
Witnessing domestic violence does NOT
Hostility to the “professionals” does NOT
Where therefore should the “SS” priorities lie?
I’m only asking !!
I would have thought myself it was MORE IMPORTANT to concentrate on preventing babies being tortured rather than the more common rush to remove babies AT BIRTH from mothers whom some highly paid psychobabble merchant has decided may at some future date emotionally harm their babies !Crystal ball gazing ?
Ian,
Errr yes I did; I made concrete points which you have failed to concretely respond too so until you actually say something concrete I have nothing more to say….
Darrel,
people are grieving and need an outlet for their emotions. What would you prefer, that they were bottled up. I think that your own zeal for non torture is blinding you to reality here.
You are discrediting everyone here who voices an opposing opinion to your own, with a righteous moral high ground. Their view is just as political as yours. I think you are taking these opinions far too literal.
Its easy to sit back and cry we don’t want torture but torture exists in every day cases like those innocent lambs.
Torture exists because of the sick society that we live in which glorifies violence, torture exists because of the sick images that humanity are bombarded with daily from the media. It exists because of the sick mentality in people’s mind which causes them to write about such stuff. It exists because humanity is so unevolved that people cannot be allowed to express their emotions without being chastised. Two wrongs do not make a right, that much I do know. It still doesn’t stop me from wanting to see these demons punished severely. All life imprisonment with no release ever. (what are your views on that) I know in this system that the death penalty does not exist and neither likely to in the near future so what are you so worried about. I also know that their greatest punishment given by our courts of justice will be a lengthy prison sentence.
We all know they will go to prison and that is the only punishment. No hard labour and all the perks. The system is letting down society not soceity.
The reality here mate is that people hurt and want to hurt back those that hurt that baby. Whether it is meant or not is something you can take up individually but you are wasting your time. It is grief and Grief is expressed in all manners. These views have a right to exist, just as you believe your view of non torture.
Those against torture.
Think again if it was your child that was hurt so badly or if he/she was abused by a peado.
I am sure your opinion would change then about torture. Unless of course you are all saints.
Lesley,
When have I ever denied their right to exist?? Also, a right for them to exist presupposes the right to challenge as well….you say this is just harmless ‘venting’.
I do not class people calling, as posters have done here, for the harrassment of Sharon Shoesmith with abusive phone calls as merely ‘venting’…you reel of alot of homilies about ‘torture existing in every day life’ but that is not the concrete issue is it now….people have concretely called for the bringing back of capital punishment and I have replied in the concrete with arguments against again as is my right…
I think people calling on a public forum for the use of torture are reckless in the extreme…who knows who is out their reading this and getting riled up…who knows who will actually take their ‘venting’ further and do people damage…
It’s high time there was less emotion here and more clear heads…
What a load of worthless rubbish these MPs talk about; they have the power to change the law but chose to do nothing. The bottom line is they don’t have the guts or the back bone to rid our society of this scum. Who I might add is now protected by the human rights bill! What about the human rights of baby p! Get real you idiots.
The lot of them have blood on their hands so don’t have any choice but to accept responsibility for the cruel murder of this innocent child. You people are so out of touch with what the vast majority of the uk really wants.
It would be nice to think the working people of this country could force these spineless MPs to bring back the death sentence by having a general strike. To starve the government of the taxes they unlawfully take from the generally decent and law abiding people then squander it on pointless things to lengthy to mention. The cost of keeping this scum in prison springs to mind and then when they eventually get released. Because we all know we will continue to support this kind of scum until the day they die. So why not just bring their death forward so they don’t have the opportunity to bring another innocent life into this world.
The British National Party is gathering more support than ever, Have you ever thought why. Do something now before its to late to reverse this trend.
I would welcome any feed back, but please don’t comment on my poor grammer.
Norman,
I would never dream of commenting on your poor grammer as mine can be truly dreadful at times
.
I am really not sure what you want MP’s do and how they change the law. I suspect somewhere in there is a dig at human rights law based upon a false counterposition. Tax’s are not unlawful at all…
As I have previously pointed out; capital punishment costs money too…in America prisioners are often on death row for years so I do not accept the ’saving money’ argument at all…
And there is Elena to prove the validity of what I have just said…I think it needs to be clarified what this site actually is; it’s a site for *political discussion*…it is not a Facebook group or a wall to pin messages on; thus people cannot be surprised when people actually enter into discussions and debates…
Darrell no you still did NOT ANSWER where the “SS” priorities should lie ! All the features bellow 2-6 give rise to concerns but it is my contention that they pale into insignificance compared with number one !
Can you honestly disagree ?
1Physical torture KILLS KILLS KILLS !!!
2Emotional abuse does NOT
3Poor school attendance does NOT
4A cluttered house does NOT
5Witnessing domestic violence does NOT
6 Hostility to the “professionals” does NOT
Where therefore should the “SS” priorities lie?
I’m only asking !!
Well said Elena, but which ones!
As for you Darrell you know exactly what I’m talking about. MPs are in a position to make the law and change it when it doesn’t work. What more do I need to say.
Yes I am having a dig at the human rights law and why not. To my reckoning the law should be there to protect the victims of crime not this kind of evil scum who commit it. As far as I am concerned they should have lost that right when ceased to become human.
However, back to the issue why doesn’t the government have a referendum on the subject of capital punishment for this kind of crime? I think the results would be quite interesting, then we would really find out if we live in a democracy or not.
What kind of world is this, when
pure evil exists that we can make a mockery about it?
Bunch of sad sick b*stards out there.
Ian,
My concrete point is that they bare a relation to point number one…especially in the case of emotional abuse where there is often corrleration…
Nigel,
Firstly, apologies for getting your name wrong. Humanity is not an elective group constituted on the basis of an individuals actions…it’s not something you ‘expel’ or ‘cast people out’ from…that’s why human rights legislation is generalised…
Victims are already victims and nothing can change what happened to them; the law isnt some time travelling force that can protect them. It exists as a balancing force and is there to punish and correct. It is also there to protect other members of society from possible harm too.
I don’t feel a referendum would be right at this time because obviously it would be won on the basis of people reacting to this…
As to what Lesley says I think he answers eloquently why the court made the decision it did….
This story has braugt me to tears i dont understand how any one could get away with murder just because a Jury could not agree who participated in the injuries. Well i am affraid either they participated or watched so in my eyes they all should have been convicted of murder. I work with children we have a few kids who are fragile and you can spot them right away. So for doctors and nurses not being able to spot that baby P was being abused is beyond me. Chocloat to cover up his bruses what was the nurse or doctor blind. I am so shocked at this Story really i am cant beilieve that no one could spot or do they research to actually acknowledge this child was on the child protection register What a mess our system is in and from this story and the shocking results. You all now realise its time to do something about it.
after seeing and reading the press about Baby P I had to visit the web to somehow say how I felt about this as I cannot begin to understand how any human being can harm a child (obviously the people he lived with are not human!.) and also how any human being cannot help a child so vulnerable and in need of care!! why did these trained professionals not help this child. I have cried at he stories today and cuddled my two year old daughter whom I would give up my life for…the death punishment should be brought back for these monsters…. I am a cristian person but I hope that they do not survive…
Further to the comment made by Ian Josephs about baby P not being good adoption material, how ridiculous when you can see from the pictures this baby did have blonde hair and blue eyes.
Does the culture of inmates making child batterers suffer in prison still exist ? Sure hope so !
that poor little boy. I think life for a life thay should never be alound out. thay should be named and shamed r.i.p baby p.
My heart breaks for that poor little baby. Can you imagine what the poor helpless child had to endure in his short life and what agony he must have gone through before he died. To be left all ALONE in his filthy blood stained cot, in terrible, agonising pain, properly crying in the hope that someone would come and help him. His cries properly changed to whimpers as he lay there and he realised that no-one be comning to help him and eventually he died from his injuries. He was only 17 months old!! Can any of us ever come close to imagining what that sweet innocent little boy went through before he died? How could NO-ONE see what was happening to him?? Wake up people!!
This case is clearly a tragic one, and serious lessons do need to be learnt. However i do think the social workers in this case did try to their best, by visiting as often as they can. It is not the social workers who decide wheather or not a child comes into Local Authority care, it is senior management. Baby P died of physical injuries, however most likely the child also suffered from emotional abuse and neglect, all abuse is concerning.
The law does need to change and the Human Rights Act 1998 is being exploited, as peadophiles and abusers use this act to defend their cases.
Social workers can not win, as they are critised for removing children into care, and critised when they don’t take children into care…
I feel sick every time i think of that poor little baby, bring back hanging for people like this
I am a mother of 2 boys, 2 years old and 7 months old. When i read about baby P I turned and looked at my two boys and thought how could anyone have ever EVER done that to a small innocent and helpless child. I still cannot get this un-imaginable torture out of my mind and I still cannot get my head round this whole horrific thing, his parents should be tortured the same way he was and then hung, as for the health professonal that missed a baby with a broken back and broken ribs crying out in agony she is no better than the SS and should be locked away for the rest of her life. As for the SS could there be a more useless waste of space. The state of the living conditions should have been enough to trigger alarm bells, and did they not question why the baby was always covered in chocolate I mean come on how many kids do you know that are constantly covered in food? I dont know of any. All these families that have been split up over the most trivial of things, I feel sorry for them they cared enough to fight to get their children back but of course as always the SS must be right so therefore they win the battle, where were they for baby P!! Its absolutely disgusting, i should hope you feel exactly what you are USELESS FAILURES!! If it was down to me i think everyone involved in this case who failed to rescue this poor little boy should be locked up under the charge of accessories to murder. Rest in peace you poor little man at least you are safe at last. I just wish it could have been you were alive and safe!
I’m not going to be part of this political debate.
I just wanted to say
Rest In Peace Baby P
you’ll be safe now
I may only be sixteen, but I love children and if I ever lost my sister, I couldn’t go on
so my prayers are with the members of his family who loved him
xxxx
I wonder how many of the people here screaming abuse have actually worked in child protection? Try being in the shoes of those who actually have to walk in and make judgments on things like this before making judgments yourself on these people. It’s intensive pressurised and emotionally draining work, and you are going to get things wrong sometimes. It seems to be that one day we have the tabloid press screaming abuse at social workers saying they are too ready to take children away from their parents, next day the tabloid press is screaming abuse at social workers saying they don’t take enough children away from their parents. In this case I read even the real father of the boy didn’t know what was happening, so are we all quite so sure if we were in that situation we’d have got it right?
Also, next time you moan about council tax being too high, remember it pays for things like this. Perhaps the biggest thing that alarmed me during the time I was a councillor was the relentless rise in spending due to “problem children”. It was always every year massively more than inflation. Yet we have stupid national politicians who seem to think the answer to any hole in the budget is to call on local government to “become more efficient”. The result of this IS social workers left depressed an unable to cope because they just have too high a workload.
I’m afraid so long as people are free to live with whom they like, have sex with whom they like, and bring up their children how they wish, things like this WILL happen. Do we want a rigidly authoritarian society where the state would always intervene to stop it? Do we want to go back to the days when sex and babies were something strictly for married couples and marriage was seen as a lifetime commitment which you would enter into only when you were secure enough to be able to cope?
In the old days, a girl like this who had a baby out of wedlock would have had the baby taken from her at birth, and she would have been locked up in an institution. If this is what you want, people, say it.
Since the news of baby P’s sad demise broke last week two toddlers have been stabbed in Manchester. The NSPCC report that on average 47 under threes are killed by their immediate family each year in the UK – basically one a week,
Hundreds of toddlers are dieing every hour in the Congo and across our planet millions of children die each year through abuse/lack of food/war/because of their sex or because they have a sibling. For a large number of the planet’s under fives life is nasty, brutish and short.
I’d hope if any good comes out of this tragic case its that we all do more to protect and enhance life in all its awkward and difficult forms, rather than simply allow base emotions to make a bad situation worse by calling for even more torture and death.
Lesley Heron said:
“Those against torture.
Think again if it was your child that was hurt so badly or if he/she was abused by a paedo.
I am sure your opinion would change then about torture.”
OK Lesley, I do see your point. If it was my child, I would feel distraught, furious, and probably murderous.
But the question we have to answer in politics – because that’s what we’re all getting involved in on this website – is a different one. It’s not about what an individual might feel. The question we have to answer is “Should the British Government torture convicted child killers?”
My answer as a Liberal Democrat is no, never. Here are some reasons:
First, yes, some murderers are evil. But others are mad, others are just completely unable to cope with life, others are dominated by powerful partners, and, a few of the people who get convicted of any crime are in fact innocent. Would you have them all tortured?
Next – how would you feel if we had someone employed and paid to be the official British torturer? What sort of person do you think would apply for a job like that? Would you want them as your neighbour? Would you feel comfortable living in a state where the government could use torture when it wanted to?
In the old days, Britain did use many violent punishments, such as hanging thieves. There was more violent crime in those days. The State had no proper respect for human life in the bad old days. Nor did many of its subjects.
State violence doesn’t prevent individual people being violent. It can only cause more violence and inhumanity.
im totally sickened by this whole baby p story it was a friend who told me about cos i dont watch the news how could any human person do that to a wee baby ppl like that dont deserve children and as for social services they seem to pick on the wrong familys and miss the ones that really need there help. RIP BABY P
I think it is hilarious, all you do gooders “you should not condone death whether it be an adult or a child” one thing your all missing is the experience, you were never abused as a child, and whats more important you never DIED at the hands of pure hatred! You would have had a smacking every now and then for doing something wrong while you were growing up, who hasnt (i got the belt, and im sure alot of you did, and extended out even to a shoe, a wooden spoon or a hose) Why should we keep these creatures alive? What value does their life add to our society? They devalue the life of a voiceless defenseless child, and you want to give them a voice and there rights?! Im sorry but their “rights” went out long ago, with that fatal blow to the head, their “rights” went out long ago when they cracked that childs spine over their knee, their “rights” went out long ago when chocolate was used to cover up the disgustingly horrific torture they made that little baby boy endure, ensuring he had no chance for a life or a future in this world!
What I find more disgusting than the healt care officials and even the sick twisted poor excuse for human beings, is the people who “avoid reading things liek these” and the people who think that death penatly wont solve anything. No your right death penatly wont solve a god damn thing, but it sure as hell will ensure that particular person never has a chance at harming anyone of Gods creatures again. I dont know about you but im not particularly fond of my tax dollars paying for the scum of the earth to live, when you can just see their value in life, when they can think itis okay to torture and kill a beautiful defenseless little boy.
And to all you people who avoid these types of stroies, I think your just as bad as the health care professionsals, avoiding the reality that bad things happen in the world and taking the affirmative action to do something about it.
Human kind disgusts me as of late, we are more concered about the rights of the criminal than the victim! We wait for something bad to happen then apologise for our incompetence and unwillingness to help out our fellow man.
I cant help but think of those last few months that little boy lived, what life that was. The only people he would have ever known were the people who were killing him.
I still dont understand how those evil things could torture that gorgeous little boy, looking up at them throughhis beautiful blue eyes with tears streaming down, face covered in bruises, paralysed on the floor! crying out for it to stop.
I dont know what it would be like to regret being born or to want to die as a 17month old child, but I’m sure thats what that little boy thought every day for the short life he did live
I will never what that feels like, and I dont think any child or person for that matter ever should.
As a collective, we should all be disgusted in ourselves to have aloud something as horrific as this to happen and continue to happen.
Cassandra – I think its you who need to get a grip. Attacking so-called ‘do-gooders’ is both trite and wrong.
What this country is crying out for is more do-gooders – the sort of people who check up on their neighbours, volunteer to help them in difficult times and if necessary tell the authorities when things start to go wrong.
The problem is we have allowed our neighbourly functions to be nationalised by both local and central government – us neighbours won’t interfere because we think that there is someone in authority who is doing our job.
Baby P should not have died or been tortured, but unfortunately he’s not alone in this country or the world – and we shouldn’t launch witch hunts against public authorities until we’re confindent we’ll look in on our neighbours and take action when we think somethings amiss. And I don’t mean signing up to on-line or tabloid petitions.
Oh and torture and killing is wrong regardless whether the victim has done something nasty…
i here that these 3 Baby Killers still have friends that stand by them!!! Who are these freinds??? they need a good seeing to as well!!!!
Congratulations to LDV for hitting 200 comments for the first time. Here’s my opinion:
I blame the parents. And their parents in turn. And their parents . . .
The British definitely have a very singular and peculiar way of caring for their youngsters. I was always told that mothers tend to overprotect their weakest offspring. Obviously, this rule does not apply in the UK. As long as Old Lizzy the Second is healthy, who would care about some insignificant poor kid?
Shameful, indeed.
Dan, I think it is you that needs to get a grip. Cassandra never said anything against checking up on neighbours. She was talking about do-gooders protecting the criminal and not caring about the victim, and quite frankly we are all sick of it. So what would you do with Baby P’s torturers? Hold their hands and give them sweet words of comfort, no doubt. People like you make me sick.
Excellent post, Cassandra. well done.
Social services plead shortage of staff and financial resources as excuses for overlooking torture of children(even after 60 visits to baby P ).In other European countries they take children from parents only if they have been severely physically abused but in Britain we waste most of out valuable resources fighting cruel cases in secret courts to remove children and even new born babies at “risk of emotional harm” and for similar lesser reasons.The parents of baby P WOULD NEVER HAVE GONE TO COURT to fight for his return if he had been taken earlier as parents that violently physically abuse their children avoid courts like the plague !
Physical torture KILLS KILLS KILLS !!!
Emotional abuse does NOT
Poor school attendance does NOT
A cluttered house does NOT
Witnessing domestic violence does NOT
Hostility to the “professionals” does NOT
A parent with learning problems does NOT
Where therefore should the “SS” priorities lie?
I’m only asking !!
I would have thought myself it was MORE IMPORTANT to concentrate on preventing babies being tortured rather than the more common rush to remove babies AT BIRTH from mothers whom some highly paid psychobabble merchants have decided may at some future date emotionally harm their babies !Crystal ball gazing ?
I know this might sound daft and many will disagree, but I cannot help but question why our society would rather pass blame around, either to social workers, MPs, and medical professionals and police rather than facing one simple, horrible fact.
It was the boy’s mother, boyfriend and lodger who subjected that small boy to endless torture, not social workers, not the police or medical professionals. I doubt any would even consider doing such things to a young child, that is why such cases are so difficult to handle and to spot, I struggle to comprehend it myself.
Moreover, if the mother is being devious about the abuse and covering it up, social workers and other professionals have a harder time trying to discern if she is genuinely deranged (which I think she is) or actually a good person in a bad circumstance. Most people in this country want to believe the best in others. I don’t know how I could handle such a case – I don’t envy those social workers having to make such tough choices.
Yes, questions NEED to be asked, and some of those questions SHOULD be directed at social workers, health professionals, and others who failed to spot the signs of neglect and abuse. Some of these questions should be uncomfortable ones. Most of them should be in the vein of ‘lets not allow this to happen again’.
Blaming and shaming health professionals and social workers will not bring children like Baby P back, nor protect children like them from their awful parents/guardians.
DEAR LESLEY HERON as i let you know the exact place where its taken and for the information in SAUDI ARABIA is in the whole world crime rate is lowest because of the islamic law of justice as life is for life and death is for death unless you forgive them ALLAH allow you to take revenge because if you dont than the evil be more stronger so cut him in pieces no put in jail for 10 year and than he back again same here the LITTLE ANGEL BABY P suffer from torture which a human never think of what i do in this is never let them die burn a fire under them as put them on so much heat them their flest start melting but dont let them die as each day they be in hell of pain are you agree to me and second i will do this in public as all are invited to see this hell and i promise you 100% after watching this it be example for only that if anyone do this be like this i wait for your comment as hope you agree to me shahid
whole world the country where crime rate is lowest as i put fire under them untill their flest start melthinf and they be in pain of hell and all public can come to see this so no one again dare to do this are you agree rather than just putting behind bar for 10 years and feed them is this fair
DEAR LESLEY ITS FOR YOUR KNOWLEDGE Take verse 38 in Sura 5 of the Qu’ran. ‘As to the thief, male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example from God, for their crime: a nd God is exalted in power’. There are other barbaric punishments :- Chapter 42:2-4 lays down that fornication is to be punished by 100 lashes.
Verse 45 in Chapter 5 reads as follows ‘We ordained therein for them: “Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal.” But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an ac t of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.
Eye of an eye and life for life is primitive retribution. It is interesting that it is considered good not to carry out the retaliation that God says he himself ordained. Surely if God ordained it, God must think it is good to carry it out.
Who is going to have to guts to NAME the two child killers?
In this so-called “free” country, anyone who does so is likely to go to prison.
See who is being protected here? Not children, not the public, but the CRIMINALS.
The only people who are allowed to defy the court injunction are Members of Parliament. A job for Norman Baker?
Mary Jo, I think both you and Cassandra assume that because someone is against the death penalty, they must be in favour of the murderers. That’s just not true.
Whoever mentioned rights of the criminals? It’s your rights and my rights I’m concerned with. Listen: if the state has weapons like execution and torture at its disposal, then ANY of us are potentially subject to them.
As David Allen points out, anyone can be wrongfully convicted, anyone can be coerced, and anyone can just become ill in some way. Do you think the police never fake evidence? You think the courts never make a mistake? You think the law is never an ass? Develop some healthy cynicism, because all these things have happened. And if a mistake is made, the death penalty can’t be undone (neither can years in prison, of course, but it’s a definite improvement).
Please try to separate out in your mind these two things: being against the death penalty and being somehow sympathetic to the murderers of Baby P. I’m sorry, but they’re just not the same thing.
to the person who doesnt agree with capital punishment is saying that they will pay taxes to keep them alive in prison…… life for a life.
cassandra im with you in what u have said
This whole case sickens me, It is a disgrace and I am ashamed to say I live here where such a terrible act occurred in so called modern soceity. As for what I think Shahid said she may have raised a valid points where crime rate is low for fear of severe penalty. Shahid Thanks for info on Koran I will look it up. The problem in this country is that there is not severe enough penalty in this country to deter crims. Peado’s can abuse kids and get out in a couple of months and do it again. Never mind the childs life who is destroyed, or abused. She the devil witch Satan’s helper, was boasting that she would be out for christmas. What does that tell you about people who commit those kind of crimes?
It tells you that there is not enough severe punishment in place to intimidate these people into not doing these barbaric acts. So to Dan and to Darrel that is why people here are asking for the death penalty and whatever else. In the absense of any other form of strict punishment missing in Britain we all want to see the country rid of such scum and vermin and or to be punished very very severeley. No longer do they get shipped to islands. There is no hard labour like there may have been in America at one time. Why not? Why should they get an easy time in prison? Prison is meant to be a punishment but it is a holiday camp where crims can continue their evil acts and earn degrees to carry out more when they come out. Some may be rehabilitated but thats not the argument here. Here the argument is why people want the death penalty back and why many people are tired of hearing the status quo say, oh no more to killing and torture. In the proper sense you are right, but this was not a proper act carried out by proper people
Thes people where actually cold and calculating to the very fact that they coverered up the baby’s (a baby for Gods sake)Lets not forget> with chocolate to hide the bruises. SO THEY KNOW THEY WERE DOING WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They should and deserve whatever is coming to them in prison or whatever else people would like to see happen to them. There actions were and totally always will be unforgivable.
I do agree with the very valid point Dan did make and that would be who would carry out the torture. It would make for a certain kind of person. Which would make that person no better than the that the evil doers. SO WHAT IS TO BE DONE> AS SOMETHING IS NOT WORKING>
One question I have to say to Shahid,
Why would God, or Allah AKBAR, AL JABUR, grant that demon another child after surely he witnessed, AL Shahid the cruel torture and pain that baby P endured.
It makes me question my faith.
The only 2 answers I can come up with are that
1. She is ruled by the devil and the devil fathered it. But that is cruel to the new born and the devil can’t grant life.
or 2. That God or Allah has plans far greater than our comprehension.
It is obviously beyond me.
Nicola – ok, that’s a good point. But on the other hand, my taxes pay for a lot of things I don’t particularly like, or see the value in.
I guess the question I ask myself is – am I prepared to pay taxes which mean my society doesn’t have the power to kill me? The answer is yes, I am, even if it also happens to mean supporting the life of someone I might personally find loathsome.
(1) Capital punishment.
Those who favour it presumably don’t object if innocent people are executed by mistake. Roger Scruton is honest enough to admit as much. Are the hangers on this thread so candid?
(2) Social workers.
I don’t have much experience of social work, but those social workers I have met and have worked with (albeit briefly) strike me as relatively competent and with it. I can’t say the same for social work managers, however, who have often proved to be domineering, manipulative bullies (witness the numerous inspection reports).
There may be few bad social workers, but there are surely plenty of terrible social work managers.
(3) Open justice.
Contributors to this thread are so overcome with rage that they cannot see how the system is selling them short. No-one thus far has posited a justifiable reason for the draconian anonymity order. Why is this? Might it possibly be because there isn’t one? Why are these killers being protected by the court? Are they related to members of the Royal Family, a billionaire, or a senior Freemason? Probably not. But we cannot know one way or the other until someone NAMES THEM. (Will anyone in Scotland or Ireland help here?)
Guys,
I’ve noticed that a lot of people on this thread have talked about feeling powerless (Nigel Chapman, Rita, Spike, probably others). And I think Lesley’s right in saying this is probably where a lot of the angry talk comes from.
But you’re not powerless. I’ve written a new post that suggests some actions you could take to prevent this ever happening to another child. We can all talk all we like – but only action is going to make any difference.
Please read it:
http://www.libdemvoice.org/after-baby-p-what-can-be-done-5931.html
Thanks
woah woah woah excuse me there mr!
how dare you assume such nonsense, which is completley free of any truth!
I never once said innocent people should die, but this poor excuse of a human being ADMITTED to commiting these dispicable acts, showing absoloutley no remorse for it!
her own flash and blood! what would you do if your wife did this to your child?
or your mum did this to your brother?
like think of these things as if it was personally happening to you before you say what is right or wrong in punishment for the accused.
because im teling you now there is not a person here who would say they wouldnt want the death penalty for that creature if they put themselves in the same position if you honestly stepped back and thought about it.
But that childs only support network were the killers! he has no voice and no family to honour him in his tragic passing.
but never the less every case is different and cant be judged the same way, but this one is clear cut! there should absoloutley be no question about this.
I am outraged at what happened to this little lad and I wish someone somewhere had taken him from that evil pair of sub-humans, but I’m alarmed at the lack of language skills displayed in the comments section of each news story, too. These days, when there are so many sub-cultures and different languages spoken in this country, we need English more than ever to avoid potential misunderstandings. Also, when discussing important issues it helps if you have more than a primary-school grasp of grammar and spelling.
)
Why do we not make them all do hard labour every day for their remaining lives under ball and chain and shot if they try to escape. We need billions of pounds of infrastructure with not enough revenue to pay the wages of the workers make the scum do the work for us.
Also I think You do not have to have a proper standard of english to understand the extremities or express your feelings about this case. How trivial can you get? Get A LIFE.
To Abigail.
In a country where we have free speech, it should not matter if spelling or grammar is not 100% correct. This is a site that has allowed people political and non political to express their views and opinions freely. Personally I think it is a very good sign and encouraging that all types of people here are having an open debate about this situation. Whether it is grammatically wrong emotional or logically charged it matters not, people are talking. And people want change. This society is failing us.
To Abigail, I didn’t know one needed a degree in English Lit to post on a message board. Does that include mobile text messaging too? Sorry! Should I have said, “literature”?
I read and listen to the reports of baby p with disgust and dispair.To call these people animals would be unjust to animals,would they treat their young this way?There would be no punishment suitable for these people,but capital punishment should be brought back.I’m sure the do gooders of this world would have something to say about this.To think you need a licence to have a t.v. but any low life can have a child.What has happened to human nature?How can anyone take pleasure in harming a poor defenceless baby for goodness sake!
Lesley Heron wrote:
“In a country where we have free speech,”
Not in this one we don’t. Anyone who names these two child-killers, Mr X and Miss Y, is likely to be sent to prison.
since labour came to power in 1997 nobody in charge will take the blame for anything what happened to the buck stops here!Why do we pay someone £100.00 per year if they are not ultimatly responsible for their department?The head of the department should be sacked but she won`t Because no one in goverment has ever done this.
Just take a few minutes when you do your christmas cards to send one to the leader of harringey council, the prime minister and your local MP signed from Baby P, with your own personal message so he is not forgotten like Victoria was, and do this every year so they don’t forget why they sit back with their big pay packets and life of luxury, unlike what Baby P had, aswell as Victoria. We know this won’t be the last, so just spare a thought at christmas for these two lovely people
P.S. Please mention this at the end of your correspondence to other people so every year they will not be forgotten and brushed to one side
Keep to the point, don’t go astray like alot of you already have done with silly things such as spelling and grammar, remember what this is about, Baby P and Victoria
Hello Mary Jo
No, I aint got no degree in Inglish litritur! You don’t need a degree to be able to express yourself, just a bit of education and a bit of care.
Toodle-oo!
wot happend to baby p is awfull. The parent should be shot and doesnt deserve kids. people like them make my skin crawl. If anyone had done that to my daughter i would kill them. They are a discrase and deserves everything that comes to them !!!!
I also cannot get little baby P out of my mind and feel physically sick when I think what they put him through. I have a little grandson similar age and like many of you cannot imagine what the poor little boy went through. He was with monsters to “care” for him and the only people who could help him were the social services or the doctors and they let him down, plain and simple, no excuses full stop. If they are human they will never be able to sleep again at night for the rest of their lives, but I doubt that, always excuses and passing the buck. They should also get life imprisonment.
The Government should make an exception when it comes to the rules of sentencing and let the Judge give these three monsters life, mneaning life until they die. Forget the 14 yr. maximum rule! Also, where were the grandparents, the natural father, relatives, not to notice what was going on? Nothing though can bring him back now, all too late.
We are all outraged and my heart goes out to the poor darling little boy, as somebody else said, sorry that nobody helped you, there would have been so many of us who would have done if we had known! Rest in peace little angel and if there is another life for you, may it be a happy caring loving one, I hope so sincerely. I will pray for you tonight and every night and wish this had never happened to you. Poor little darling – you did not deserve to be born into that “family”.
I would just like to point out to some of the comments left here about Social Workers and Child Protection. Reams of Legislation was bought in after the Soham murders. Outside of the home people who have access to children in their care (i.e. a School) have to be (under the Legislation) vetted and rightly so. Emotional abuse, in the long term, is just as destructive as physical abuse, although it may not kill you physically. How many sexually abused children have gone on and committed suicide in later life? However, I would suggest that in cases like Baby P, they are subjected to both forms of abuse, the one leading to the other as this case has indicated. The emotional abuse would have been a precursor to the next blow. The Director of S.S. says that if someone wants to kill someone there is little one can do! Well, this maybe true of a gunman walking down Hungerford High Street, or a studen shooting dead 20 other students, but it was the wrong argument for this case. In Child Protection, “the safety, welfare, well-being of the Child is paramount” and under the Legislation this includes neglect, emotional abuse, sexual and physical abuse. The Legislation is very clear. The S.S failed to uphold this and one now learns that this mother’s daughter was also abused. The decisions not made begger belief. I go back to asking that these cases come under a Police body who investigate – in the same way you investigate any crime. The child’s welfare should come under just one body, and not confused, muddied, by different organisations who may or may not talk to each other. CJ
i think there identity should be reveled so we can wait for them to come out so the british public can torture them
Dear LESLEY as life is only given by GOD and baby p is also an angel who suffer and i assure you he be in heaven now why he suffer?why his mom do this to him?is important to understand as ALLAH SAY i give you life to see who do good in this world and than you be rewarded what is do as GOD always do justice this life is a test and the mom of baby p fail not only here but rest of her life she suffer forever in this world human is free to choose a pth but only here not after death.BABY p is an angel and alll babies are born on the nature of GOD than their parents make them muslim,jew,christian etc
I think that all needs to be said about this appalling case has been said.
All we can now do is hope for true justice, and that those who did not do their jobs competently will be dismissed.
R.I.P. little fellah
GOD and the parents make them christian,jew,muslim,etc.BABY P IS POWERLESS,INNOCENT and her mother she is satan because on background she can be a drug addict,become mentally unstable and for her BABAY P is just a toy to destroy not a living soul
you read about abuse every day lesley and in this county specially europe as people are sexually abusing ,children because if you see they have no base where they can start a family as with out marriage they have children they have no time for kids as both busy in their work to earn more and forget their duty towards the child as it happen in a society where people forget the GOD and the purpose why they be created,if you want to finish the crime of any kind than you have to start from changing their mind and hearts as make a good example to them
the three sick bastards involved in the torture and killing of baby peter have there names photos and addresses on net. bring back capital punishment, why should they be allowed to live?
LESLEY i beleve we can make a change if you , me and others who are here promise to our selves that we do positive in life and be a good example for others and help others from heart make this society free from drugs,sex and porn and child abuse be kind and honest with our ownselves we can make a difference
NICOLA i agree to you as bring them in front to the public on net so tie them with rope and every one who pass through throw stones on them untill they die and make them an example for rest so no one dare to do this again
god, there is no god, if you believe in god then your a idiot
Nicola tell me if their is no GOD than how you come to this world how you exist?
DEAR LESLEY when have time just check this site
http://www.ahmed-deedat.co.za/frameset.asp
so if there is a god then why did he let baby p be tortured and left to die
Im only a teenager myself, and im finding it so so so hard to even begin to understand why the parents would do this, I have a little brother, Little cousins, and I just dont get it, forgive me if Im being stupid, The parents do not, and I repeat DO NOT deseve to remain annonomous. They dont even deserve the death penulty tbh.
The mother has just had another baby in prison right?
- thats just not right, she dosent even deserve the organs to make another child.
hopefully this child has baby P watching over it, Babys dont have the ability to use forums like this to have a voice, RIP baby P, Your storys not going to be forgotten. Surely iof the parents found the death penulty a worthy punishment for their innocent, child. then they should also find the death penulty worthy of their sick selves.
Dan wrote:
“i think there identity should be reveled so we can wait for them to come out so the british public can torture them”
A few clicks on Google will get you the information you want.
One of the benefits of the internet has been to weaken the ability of the elite to control and deceive us.
For those who are calling for Mr X, Miss Y and Mr O to be executed, I would point out that none of them has been convicted of murder. Death penalty proponents need to be up front and tell us (1) how many crimes they wish to be punishable by death, and (2) how many mistakes they are willing to tolerate.
as a mother i am trying to come to terms with the country we live in and ready the 60 reports sickens me to think that the social services couldnt be bothered to help baby p, as we all know he couldnt help himself. I donate to teh NSPCC and strongly believe that if they had been involved they would have had enough evidence to take baby p out of that hell hole.
As a country we should al be sticking together to ensure justice to the vile unhumane people that did this, prison is not justice, 3 hot meals a day, pocket money and visits every week is not justice. I just hope that they are named and shamed in the prison and beaten to death just like baby p was.
I am now working on making the baby p blue ribbon, similar to the cancer ribbon in rememberence of the lil man, all proceeds will go to the NSPCC. if you want to help email me on . RIP baby p xxx
dear nicola as you cannot mix your thoughts of GOD to protect the baby p because GOD give you wisdom and intelligence to use and decide your way and GOD is watching what you do and this life is a examination place where who are free but on day of judgement you see the JUSTICE OF GOD AS IF GOD DO NOW THAN NO ONE CAN LIVE NOW IN THIS WORLD AS WHAT WE HAVE DONE SO FOR.
i dont see the point in giving birth to the beautiful baby if all your are going to do is kill him they are sick and dont deserve life !!! and the doctor is obviously a load of shit to be honest not realising the briken back and ribs x
Chelsie,
Before we condemn the doctor, perhaps we should wait for the outcome of the inquiry. Medical negligence can have several causes. Poor medical knowledge and training is one of them. Being drunk is another. In the case of a junior hospital doctor, it is more likely to be the result of working 120 hours per week.
The consultant paediatrician, Dr Heather McKinnon, acted impeccably, but her advice was disregarded by Haringey Social Services.
Shahid,
Can you tell us what the Quran has to say about the state executing innocent people by mistake.
Just a couple of points;
Sesenco you are wrong to call for the court to name these people. I know that their identities are avalible on the internet but they shouldnt be and the people who are posting them are reckless and irresponsible. Kudos to the moderator who removed the link from this thread.
For proponents of the death penalty I have penned a lengtheir article outlinging my case against here http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-restating-the-case-against-capital-punishment-5944.html
i see nothing wrong with argueing for the death penalty for the people who killed Baby P
why should anyone be forced to pay taxes to keep these murderers in jail for the rest of their lives, at great expense to the taxpayer.
society has lost its ultimate sanction against crimes of a particularly vile nature. have you ever wondered why murders and violence have escalated since hanging was abolished?
Contrary to what has been claimed, there are not a great many people clamouring to be social workers. What intelligent person would go out to be a social worker when there are (or were until recently) far better paid jobs in finance? Social work tends to be the sort of job people go into if they can’t get anything else. That is why we often find young and inexperienced social workers given large amounts of case work they can’t cope with, and people imported from other countries to do the job despite the fact that this job above all requires familiarity with the local culture. There are often many vacancies for social workers which just can’t get filled. Filling them all with experienced people and paying those people enough to stay would cost a LOT – and for those who say “there, it’s all about money” – well, you go on the election campaign on the platform “I’ll make big increases in council tax”. Indeed, next time anyone moans about high council tax, remember this is one of the things it pays for, and the growing mess of people who can’t control their lives and require expensive state intervention to keep them and their children alive is one of the main contributors to council tax going up and up.
Now, we could just take the radical approach and say “we won’t bother – the state sticking its nose in just makes things worse”. Actually, there is something to this line, and if one looks at the hundreds of thousands it costs to intervene in the lives of people like the mother and her male companions in the Baby P case, all those meetings all those consultations, perhaps just handing this sort the money would do better. But if we take this line we have to accept, nasty things will happen, babies will get killed.
Will the alternative – more and more intervention, more and more paperwork – ever completely solve the problem? No. Part of the problem is that the usual “something must be done” reaction to cases like this is to set up more paperwork, more bureaucratic procedures to try and paper over the cracks discovered. People get to feel that so long as they have done the paperwork right, they won’t get blamed. An obsessive “someone must be blamed, someone must be punished” attitude only makes this more likely to happen. People are too scared to do anything for fear they wil be blamed, so they fall down on sticking to the bureaucratic procedures.
So, paradoxically, the way to deal with issues like this is actually to accept that sometimes they WILL happen. Then what we actually need is more wise and mature people doing the social work job, and less paperwork and bureaucratic procedures.
We must also accept, as I have already said, that there is inevitably a balance between the possibility of some thing like this happening and freedom in society. The greater sexual and relationship freedoms we have now DO lead to this more casual sort of home life in which babies happen, men drop in and out of women’s lives, people don’t feel the deep sense of shame they do in more conservative societies when they aren’t bringing up children in quite the approved way. If you have this freedom, a natural consequence IS that some mothers and their children will get things dreadfully wrong.
The mother’s boyfriend in this case does seem to be a dreadful brute, with an unhealthy interest in violence. Well, what are we to do about this? Ban violent films and books? Put people in prison because they enjoy watching scenes of torture on film? Right – so that means you’ve put the audience for many recent films in prison. Where do you stop?
Archduke,
I do for reasons I explain at greater length at the link provided. I think we need to nail the myth that the death penalty costs nothing…you are still going to be paying money for it if you have it…especially now since this country hasnt had capital punishment for a substantial number of years…anybody care to cost what bringing it back would cost??
A fair amount of money i’d say….
“For those who are calling for Mr X, Miss Y and Mr O to be executed, I would point out that none of them has been convicted of murder. ”
which is EXACTLY why the British public are fed up and ANGRY right now. i have read that they could be subject a term of 14 years in jail – so that means half that on “good behaviour”.
can you understand now why many people are calling for a return of the death penalty?
“Death penalty proponents need to be up front and tell us (1) how many crimes they wish to be punishable by death, and (2) how many mistakes they are willing to tolerate.”
the mistakes will be far far less than the current murder and violence rates – the sky high rates are a DIRECT result of the abolition of the death penalty.
mark my words -if we reintroduce hanging for capital offenses, you will see a dramatic decline in violent crime.
as for the crimes that should be punisable by death – well for the starters, the torture and murder of a 17 month old baby would be right up there.
“especially now since this country hasnt had capital punishment for a substantial number of years…anybody care to cost what bringing it back would cost??”
whats so expensive about a firing squad?
“Daryl Says:
16th November 2008 at 2:13 pm
Just take a few minutes when you do your christmas cards to send one to the leader of harringey council, the prime minister and your local MP signed from Baby P, with your own personal message so he is not forgotten like Victoria was, ”
that is simply a wonderful idea. so simple and yet effective.
you should get that idea published – get onto the newspapers about it…
I hope the all burn in Helllll… he was a very cute kid…she not a mom she is an evil from Hell where she belong..bitch hate her for what she did..
“David Allen Says:
16th November 2008 at 12:02 am
State violence doesn’t prevent individual people being violent. It can only cause more violence and inhumanity.”
If capital punishment is “state violence”, then imprisonment is state kidnapping.
and here’s an interesting graph
recorded crime per 100,000 people from 1950 to 2005
http://www.civitas.org.uk/data/RecordedCrimePer100k1950-2004.htm
Darrell wrote:
“Sesenco you are wrong to call for the court to name these people.”
I am RIGHT to call for the court to name Mr X and Miss Y. If we are to preserve our system of open justice, this must happen.
You are a paternalist who believes that ordinary people cannot be trusted with information, and I have to disagree with your profoundly.
Would you apply the same principle to “Lady Chatterley’s Lover”? Mervyn Griffith Jones QC did. Would you apply the same principle to pornography? Mrs Mary Whitehouse did. Hitler, Stalin and Mao applied it to about every aspect of life.
One of the greatest journalists this country has ever produced, the late Paul Foot, had the guts to defy court injunctions and name Colonel Hugh Johnston (the secret witness in the ABC Trial) and the media personalities who hired prostitutes disguised as children from Janie Jones. Presumably, were you around at the time you would have condemned Paul Foot for his lack of deference to authority.
BTW, I haven’t provided a link to internet sites that name Mr X and Miss Y (as much as I’m itching to do so), contrary to the impression you give.
Sesenco,
No, I am a rationalist who feels with good reason that ‘ordinary people’ cannot be trusted with that information in this case. I need say nothing more than look through the contributions on this thread…
Archduke,
Your graph proves nothing. Why?? Well for a start it doesnt show which offences have increased and, on a related point, it doesnt take account the numerous changes in the law which have made more things an offence…
Archduke wrote:
“the mistakes will be far far less than the current murder and violence rates – the sky high rates are a DIRECT result of the abolition of the death penalty.”
Right. So hanging a few innocent people by mistake is quite OK?
When, in the 1830s, Sir Samuel Romilly called for the abolition of the death penalty for theft he was told that the result would be an astronomical increase in property crime. But after the death penalty actually was abolished for theft, the crime rate didn’t rise at all.
Serious proponents of the death penalty no longer bother to argue from deterrence because the contrary evidence is so overwhelming.
Between 1956 and 1965, the ratio of capital to non-capital murders remained roughly as it had been in the period when all murders were capital.
In the United States, where individual states have abolished then reapplied the death penalty, often more than once over short periods, no deterrent effect has been found.
As Sir Robert Mark never tired of reminding us, even if we had the death penalty in the UK, it would only ever be applied in a small number of cases. Would we want to give the state the right to kill avoidably, he asked, just to deal with a few bad people?
Of course, it is possible to argue that crime has risen due to an overall decline in moral standards, of which the abolition of the death penalty is a symptom – along with gay rights, women working, anti-racism, long hair, pop festivals, TV satire, etc, etc.
If someone is planning to commit an extreme crime like murder, is he/she really going to contemplate the consequences?
30 years of sitting on a slop-bucket and drinking urine-flavoured tea? Or death?
One person did not do their job properly,
All of them should be sacked without compensation of any kind and without pension pot immediately.
No Darrell, you re a typical bleeding heart? Sesenco is merely expressing the nation’s collective views. He is right. These vile creatures should be named. Not doing so is an insult to poor Baby P. Try respecting the unfortunate baby rather than his evil murders. These people must be named.
Darrell,
You haven’t answered my question about Colonel Hugh Johnstone and Janie Jones. Can the public not be trusted to know the the location of the Post Office Tower or the sexual proclivities of media celebrities?
The trouble with information is that someone has to know it. In your case, you think it’s OK for the elite to know it, but not the hoi polloi.
Mrs Whitehouse agreed. She thought it was OK for her and her fellow campaigners to wade through mountains of smutty pictures because she was specially protected by God and couldn’t be corrupted. Unlike the rest of us.
BTW, what is “rational” about naming Jason Owen, but not Mr X and Miss Y? It was Jason Owen’s dog that was set upon the child.
i know its the “daily mail” , but this whistleblower story is highly disturbing…
seems as if Haringey were more concerned about stopping the whistleblower, rather than protecting kids like Baby P.
“If someone is planning to commit an extreme crime like murder, is he/she really going to contemplate the consequences?
30 years of sitting on a slop-bucket and drinking urine-flavoured tea? Or death?”
lets stand back a bit – we executed Nazi war criminals in the wake of WW2.
why did we do that? yes , a bit of it was vengence – but a heck of a lot of it was to do with society sending out a VERY clear message – that we find Nazism to be completely unacceptable. and to such an extent that we are willing to hang you for it.
quite frankly, what happened to Baby P was just as horrific as what the Nazis did – and yet here you are argueing that the scumbags who did that should live – and with “good behaviour” they will no doubt be out in 7 years, since they havent been charged with murder.
i hope you sleep easy at night , because i certainly could not. your kind of thinking only leads to one thing – the molly coddling of monsters in our society. and kids die as a result.
you are typical of the smug attitudes of the political elite in this country – completely divorced from reality and utterly divorced from what the public are demanding right now.
sesenco -> i retract my statement above, having read your previous posts.
sorry about that. you seem to have the right attitude, with regards to democracy and freedom of information, but just disagree on the death penalty.
i can live with that.
“Darrell Says:
16th November 2008 at 10:25 pm
No, I am a rationalist who feels with good reason that ‘ordinary people’ cannot be trusted with that information in this case. I need say nothing more than look through the contributions on this thread…”
Abraham Lincoln must be turning in his grave. Which bit of “government of the people, by the people, and for the people” do you not understand.
my friend – such an elitist view can only lead to one thing – and that is 17 month old babys being battered to death because the elitists in Haringey know better than the proles.
George Orwell would be proud of you. You have vindicated his predictions.
Archuduke,
What utter rubbish. Government by the people does not mean mob rule; it does not mean right of way for lynch-law.
Sometimes people are plainly and simply wrong and i resent your allegation that this ‘elitism’ lead to this case…
Archduke,
We have a due legal process in this country. It only takes one or two hotheads, not even the majority or the ‘people’ to subvert that by taking matters into their own hands…these people are not being named because there is a very real prospect that hot-heads will subvert that process.
So, this is not even a measure against the ‘people’ who you so self-rightously claims to speak for…its a measure to stop the subversion of the law by people who I hope would be in a minority…
whats the point of “due legal process” when baby killers dont get life in prison?
they were not charged with murder. a man , who broke a kids spine on his knee – broke it in TWO – and he’ll probably do about 7 years in prison.
and you now wonder about “mob rule”?
what gives you the right to overrule the wishes of the majority of people in this country? are you appointed by God to pontificate to the rest of us proles with your wonderful wisdom on how we shouldn’t hang baby killers who torture to death 17 month old babies while laughing about it?
i romanians had the right idea – out the back, 30 second trial, and firing squad.
this lovely blue eyed boy did not know any different in his life, no laughs, no tickles, no kisses or hugs, his was pure terror and fear day after day…..I look at my two young children and think of this tiny little deflencless child and my heart goes out to him! These people are bullies and so sick that it goes beyond belief what went through their heads in this length of time! Social Services is a farse, i’m sorry there maybe exceptional workers out there but what has happened here is an absolute disgrace. What is our state of living coming to these days and why the hell are their so many parents out there killing their children……theres so many words i can say but do not wish to type. R.I.P Baby P, may the angels take you to the most happy colourful place you have never seen x
Darrell wrote:
“these people are not being named because there is a very real prospect that hot-heads will subvert that process.”
So why has Jason Owen been named?
Would you have protected the identities of Ian Huntley, Fred and Rosemary West, Dennis Andrew Nilsen, Peter Sutcliffe, Ian Brady and Myra Hindley, John Reginald Halliday Christie, Alfred Arthur Rouse, Dr Hawley Crippen? Where does it end?
No, I will save you the bother of answering my rhetorical question. It ends with the Orwellian State.
BTW, your characterisation of your opposition to open justice in this case as “rationalist” implies that people who disagree with you are stupid. That is rather rude.
Archduke,
I dont know the specifics of the reasons why to be honest; this is not the point. The point is that there is no right or mandate for it to be overridden. It exists to balance; not satisfy peoples thrist for venegence…
a) you dont even know your view is the majority
b) even if it were, i recognise that sometimes majorities are tyrannical and therefore the state and law must curb their power and balance between the rights of the minority and those of the majority…
I’m an atheist so err that would be a no…
Sesenco,
Well you did start by accusing me of being a praternalist which I am not. Having said that I think the reason why this court made the descision it did is the same reason the moderator of this site removed the link from Elena…
I think if you cant see why I would not trust people with the information in this instance from this thread I really do not know what to say…on the concrete questions, yes if I saw what I have done on this thread in response to their crimes…
@archduke
“out the back, 30 second trial, and firing squad.”
Look, I do happen to agree with you that maybe Darrell’s being a bit pompous, but where did on earth that line come from? What do you think George Orwell would have made of that statement?
If the state has weapons like arbitrary execution and torture at its disposal, then ANY of us are potentially subject to them. Arbitrariness makes it all the more likely that mistakes are going to be made.
Archduke,
Incidentally, who has elected you spokesperson for the desires of ‘the people’??
Darrell, has it not occurred to you that the average lynch mob might have a bit of difficulty getting through the walls of Wormwood Scrubs?
Alix,
You can question tone but am I fundementally wrong??
Sesenco,
And what about an indeterminant time in the future when they are not in Wormward Scrubs??
Alix Mortimer wrote:
“If the state has weapons like arbitrary execution and torture at its disposal”
Actually, it already does, as Jean-Charles de Menezes, Harry Stanley and Dr David Kelly discovered.
All the reason not to give them any more, of course.
On the issue of why Mr X, Miss Y and Mr O were not charged with murder, we need to understand that the mens rea or murder requires that the defendant either intends to kill or cause really serious injury, or foresees death or really serious injury as a virtual certainty. That was drummed into me at my first Criminal Law lecture, and many times afterwards. In the case of X, Y and O, the CPS clearly decided that there was no reasonable chance of proving that these characters possessed the requisite mens rea beyond reasonable doubt. And from what I’ve heard about this case, I think that’s right.
Now the girl has revealed who dealt the final blow (see news of the world today) and thus murdered little baby p, she must tell police if she hasn’t already and there MUST be a retrial. they said they could not charge any of the 3 because they could not assertain who dealt the final deadly blow but the girl has now revealed it was the mother’s partner so he can now be charged with murder IF she testifies. if they do not order a retrial the people of england must cause uproar and make themselves heard!!
Darrell wrote:
“And what about an indeterminant time in the future when they are not in Wormward Scrubs??”
You have a short memory, Mr Goodliffe. For one so “rational”.
Robert Thompson and Jon Venables were given lifelong anonymity (and new identities) on release from incarceration, as was Maxine Carr. So there is a precedent for protecting notorious offenders once their sentences are completed.
The key differences beetween their cases and the present one are as follows:-
(1) Thompson, Venables and Carr had already been named. The first two upon conviction, the second when charged. Their anonymity took effect from the moment they were released – once they had already been punished for their crimes.
(2) Mr Murdoch’s newspapers had launched hate campaigns against Thompson, Venables and Carr, and in the first two cases, the News of the Screws had come perilously close to inciting people to kill them.
(3) Thompson and Venables were aged 10 when they committed their crime. Carr was foolish rather than wicked (not a very good excuse, I know). They were all judged unlikely to pose any kind of threat to the public, so there would be no legitimate reason for the media to hound them.
Rrestricting free speech is a nasty thing to have to do, but it probably needed to be done in those three extreme cases. I would have opposed protecting Thompson’s, Venables’ and Carr’s identities prior to their release.
As for X, Y and O, when their sentences are complete, I would dump them outside the prison gate and point them to the bus stop.
Lou Kelly wrote:
“but the girl has now revealed it was the mother’s partner so he can now be charged with murder IF she testifies.”
Not enough. He will deny it. That isn’t even 50% + 1. And you still don’t have the mens rea for murder. Only constructive manslaughter.
Sesenco,
Well, you started this debate saying you wanted to know who this women was so you didnt end up dating her. If the identities of these people were realeased then they would need new ones upon release so you could still end up dating this person because you wouldnt know who they were in any case.
Releaseing their names therefore makes no difference…except maybe endangering relatives etc. I think the end paragraph is rather revealing of the angle you are coming at this from…i support the courts descision.
Wrong again, Darrell.
Thompson and Venables committed their crimes aged 10 and were judged by the Parole Board no longer to present a danger to the public.
Miss Y committed her crime as a 27 year-old adult and must therefore be viewed as a potential danger to the public for the remainder of her life (which is likely to be short given her fag habit). Those men with poor enough taste to be attracted to such a loathesome slob are entitled to know who she is and what she did.
The case for protecting Maxine Carr is weak.
Your support for the court’s decision shows you to be a naive paternalist with a poor understanding of the nature of power and the functioning of elites.
Darrell, presumably you endorse the court’s decision to name Jason Owen – even though he was charged with exactly the same crime as X and Y? Oh, but it’s not for us mortals to question the action of a court, is it?
Sesenco,
How does anything you say make anything I said wrong. Since it is quite clear that the sentences of these people is unlikely to last anything close to their entire life I think it probably would be the case.
You cannot prejudge that with any sure conviction, rather you judge it from your comment about ‘parasites’.
Darrell, I take it you are happy for people to have children solely for the purpose of claiming money off the state, and spending that money, not on the children, but on cigarettes and booze? If X, Y and O are not parasites, then what are they? Hard-working upright folks?
You won’t answer my question about Jason Owen, will you?
Sesenco,
No I dont because it comes into contradiction with their descision not to name the others. Since it’s inconsistent I dont.
Sesenco,
I just did. Is it not right that none of these people have not been convicted of murder so the liklihood is that they will be released before the end of their life??
Darrell,
Yes, all three will be released within the next fourteen years. But I don’t see any justification for granting them changes of identity at that stage. The exceptional circumstance that applied to Thompson and Venables (they were both aged 10 at the time they committed the crime) does not apply to X, Y and Z. Of course, if they were pursued everywhere by people holding placards, it might prove cheaper in the long run to give them new identities rather than have police hold the line in the street.
“Archduke,
Incidentally, who has elected you spokesperson for the desires of ‘the people’??”
who elected sharon shoesmith. answer is nobody.
Sesenco,
Well that is a question that will be better answered in the concrete at the time I guess and to that extent I can go along with what you say but I would say there is a theoretical possibility that they *could* need them which means I feel the original point stands…
Archduke,
Thats true but thats often the case with the people in these roles. If you were arguing for greater accountability for people in these roles, depending on the specifics, I might agree with you but thats not the debate we are having.
The main thrust of my point is that your views no more represent the majority of billions of people any more than mine do; some of your points are broadly in line with some of those on this thread but that still doesnt enhance the strength of a claim to speak for the majority of this country…but as I have said it doesn’t need a majority…
As I have said even if they did that would not mean automatically that they were right. Democracy, to me, is not the dictatorship of the majorities will…in some instances it has to cut against the majorities will because of the need for balance which I mentioned.
look mate – when i have tesco checkout girls talking about it when i get petrol – and then the ENTIRE queue suddenly talking about it to eachm, then you know that something is up…
that happened to me today. this afternoon.
i can only relay what i have experienced. and i do my best to be truthful about it.
despite decades of politically correct education , folks want hanging brought back, and that is a fact.
if you dont deal with that , then you have only yerselves to blame as voting levels plummet to below 50 per cent….
Rest in peace now little boy they cant hurt you anymore. my heart goes out to you.xxxx
what i am trying to point is out is this – if the lib dems or labour or the tories dont sort it out, then you will have the likes of the bnp making inroads. and we dont want that to happen do we?
wake up and get some balls. do something about it. for if you dont, then you’ll have the BNP to worry about.. or some sharia law party.
i agree charlotte. he’s with the angels now. they are looking after him.
Archduke,
I am not denying that there are people out there who want a return to capital punishment – whether they form a majority or not is a debateable point but I am happy to concede you are not the only person. I don’t and think that is the wrong reaction to what has happened here and am merely expressing that which isnt really odd on a site which is after all a political discussion site.
Even if they did form a majority my argument would be that this does not automatically mean it should happen just because it’s a majority view.
Of course, nobody wants the BNP to make gains but I dont expect them to be significant even if they did on this issue alone. The way to combat any potential gains for the BNP is to have a debate on the issue…and because I believe on this like every issue they are wrong and I think that would come out in the debate…accepting there program isnt the way to combat them.
well why dont the lib dems put it to a referendum vote and find out how many people want to bring back the death penalty?
but of course you wont – because you know damn well that a majority would vote in favour of it.
@archduke, unhappily for the Lib Dems, we’re not in power. We can’t order a referendum. That’s a question you should ask of the government.
And this country isn’t governed by referendums, it’s governed by representative democracy. Of course, you can argue that it shouldn’t be, and a referenda system is the way to go. But you need to campaign for that first, then demand a referendum on the death penalty.
And no, I basically don’t disagree with you Darrell, about mob rule.
One point though – maybe the mob rule argument is irrelevant here. From what Lou Kelly says, there’s going to be a retrial on new evidence.
THAT’S why the identities are being kept secret. Therefore anyone who posts the identities is endangering the effectiveness of the trial. Sesenco, you are a legal type, is this a possibility?
Secrecy and Justice are incompatible ! They just don’t mix !Naming Jason Owen and not the other two !Sacking the whistleblower and getting a court injunction to stop her talking about the very case she raised !Gagging the parents in other family court cases under the pretext of “privacy” and sending over 200 a yezr to prison for breaking “omerta” the silence!(answer to a parliamentary question)
When those who work for the government feel guilty about something they have done or not done, their first reaction is not to try and correct the situation but to try and hush it up !
Secrecy enforced by courts is ALWAYS wrong!A recent tv programme revealed our top men in MI5 during the “cold war’ 30 years ago were actually working for the Russian KGB and even that was kept secret ubtil now !
Lastly capital punishment must be wrong because mistakes are made and even in the case of baby P if all 3 miscreants were executed one of them (possibly the lodger) might have been innocent ! We just don’t know.Executing the innocent is murder and no doubt if mistakes were made the courts would try and keep them secret too !
Alix,
If there is a possibility of a retrail then I agree it is not as relevant. However, I do think it right that courts in these cases give careful thought to the implications of naming people; not just for the accused but those who are associated with the accused (relatives, partners etc) who are not guilty of any crime themselves but are at risk of damage by association.
Sesenco has talked about these cases but I bet in all these instances the familes of the accused suffered and alot of people have talked about the law protecting people well here is an example of where protecting people cannot always mean total openness.
you all keep going on bout how their identities should be reveiled, as i said before, their names on on the net along with their photo and if you also look u will find their address. bring back capital punishment and for those of you who dont agree then you are just saying that they dont deserve to die for killing baby p. will u all get a grip
Nicola,
I’m not passing judgement on what punishment they deserve. As far as I am concerned that is a matter for judge and jury; what I am passing judgement on is capital punishment which is wrong both morally and intellectually as far as I can see….
But, Nicola, listen, what about the point I just made – if there’s going to be a retrial, then the identities NEED to be kept secret for the trial to succeed. This means it is a BAD thing that the identities are available on the internet. It makes it LESS LIKELY that the trial will succeed and that the killers will be punished properly.
Bullies are not born – they are made. The perpertrators of this horror were innocent at their births. The mother, boyfriend and lodger were probably neglected, possibly abused themselves and this was continued to the sickening abuse of Baby P which put me in floods of tears.
It’s a generation to generation problem.
People don’t KNOW how to bring up children properly unless they’ve been LUCKY to get good parenting themselves. I suggest lessons at school. Basic human decency and caring is not to be simply expected anymore.
Family and community is lost (which would have routed this evil out much quicker).
How can we fix this? Radically there is sterilisation for ‘undesirables’ but who decides what and who is ‘undesirable’ before an evil act is committed?
If these 3 end up in prison – the other inmates may give you all the torture that you require.
God bless us all and especially all the foster parents and loving parents out there bringing up children properly. Please help the SS to do their jobs well and protect the truly vulnerable. Amen
I’m absolutely disgusted. Not just by the cruel torment by the sick mother and step father of little P.. but by the lack of admittance to fault by any official from Haringey social services. Social services in any area have a duty to provide protection to children. Haringey failed. Not just with P, but also with poor young Victoria seven years ago. It’s true that it is a mother’s duty to provide protection to their children, but where the mother fails, officials need to step in. These officials didn’t.
My reaction to this story was, at first, a great feeling of upset.. but now I just feel angry.. that little boy didn’t deserve to be failed, by his Mum, by his family, by the social services whose duty it was to protect him from abusers. I’m disgusted.
There won’t be a retrial. The boyfriend’s Lawyer would argue that she only changed her evidence because she suddenly had a wake up call, and won’t be home for Christmas. A civil suit could still be pursued (by his father?) where the body of evidence is less. (i.e. O J Simpson.
As for all these lynch mobs out there – let he who is without sin cast the first stone. That doesn’t mean I wouldn’t bring back hanging for child murders.
But many of the comments here are ignoring more complicated issues. For many sink state people, having a child is the passport to housing and benefits. Such children are easily conceived; the fact they will not thrive in a house where such a way of life is a means to an end, is overlooked by Governments. There is one obvious answer to the abuse – he simply wasn’t wanted and the mother found him too hard a price to pay for the way of life she enjoyed at our expense. Toddlers demand endless patience; without the love necessary – a slap, a punch, a threat becomes the means of control. Many children are bought up in this sort of environment. They may not be killed or crippled but their care is poor. In India there are cases of parents who cripple their children to get sympathy money. There was a case in Geneva of a child from over the border, removed from the mother because she tied wire round his leg before dressing him, and then begged for money on the trams with her clearly distressed child. Abuse happens when the ideal circumstances for having a child have been removed and the motive is to get benefits from a welfare state.
Responsible people may make one mistake, or not, and there are one parent families who do their best for their child; beware of those who continually make the same one – another child they can’t afford.
Just a polite reminder, but as there is a legal injuction against them being named, any comments which do name them will be deleted in full.
Darrell wrote:
“I’m not passing judgement on what punishment they deserve. As far as I am concerned that is a matter for judge and jury”
It is NEVER a matter for the jury what punishment a convicted defendant receives.
A “rationalist” with the legal knowledge of a six year-old.
Whoever couldnt even be bothered to post their name that was a cheap shot. You know full-well what I mean it’s a matter for due process not posters on a website, newspaper editorial writers or anybody else.
FYI, Darrell, I was using an unfamiliar computer and forgot to add my name.
Now, how is it a cheap shot to point out that when you pontificate about legal matters you don’t know what you are talking about?
After all, you are the one who prides himself on being a “rationalist” and derides ordinary people as ignorant barbarians.
If you wrote that in a law exam you would be failed. And quite right.
Someone in this thread (I forget who) claims that the possibility of a retrial is all the more reason that Mr X and Miss Y should not be named.
Surely the exact opposite is the case?
There might be people out there who could assist the forensic process but can’t because they don’t know who the defendants are.
That is one of the reasons we have open justice.
Sesenco,
I wont comment on most of what you say but the notion that if these people are named the notion that there are people in the country who could be found to form a jury who had not already been prejeudiced by the press coverage then that is delusional.
Darrell,
YOU are the one who is being delusional, I am sorry to say.
When someone is arrested and charged with a crime, the Police investigation continues. New witnesses come forward, as do new victims (particularly so in serial rape cases). Others may even have information which points to the innocence of the accused.
In order for any of this to happen, those charged have to be NAMED.
That is the main reason we have open justice. There is also the point about justice having to be seen to be done, per Lord Hewart CJ; but I don’t suppose that would cut much ice with a champion of official secrecy like yourself.
i am absolutely horrified by the events which have happened to Baby P. how can the social worker and doctor not see the injuries that happened to him?? Is is not obvious to see when a baby’s back is broken?? Was the Social Worker so blind that she could not see any fear in his eyes? Even when you see a little baby crying you cannot bear to see them cry – and this mother actually physcially abused him and for what reason? What did she get out of it? Joy??? She is a cold-hearted women with no feeelings whatsoever, if you are not going to look after a small vulnerable child why bother having one? Poor Baby P could not say anything – was defenceless. I may only be sixteen but i know that if i was to see a child like that i would know that something will be wrong immediately. Doctors are meant to help people not help ignore them? My heart goes out to Baby P and to his fmaily who cared for him, may you rest in peace and may Allah (SWT) bless your soul. RIP Baby P.
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Sesenco,
Let’s cut to the chase shall we
….the facts are this; you have clearly already prejudged this case by your use of prejorative remarks like ‘parasites’ etc and this is what lies behind your position.
Concretely, is it not true that if a retrial were to take place the chances of finding an impartial jury would be well down on zero if these people have been named?
Concretely, what do you intend to do about the people who could suffer through possible association through the naming??
I would only add that this is an exceptional case as already been said and exceptional cases require exceptional measures; it is for that reason that I have no problem supporting ‘official secrecy’ this time around…because I think on balance any measures which prevent the possible suffering of *innocents* ie, people associated with the accused through being a relation or being a partner is acceptable…
Also, Alix has brought up the issue of a retrial which I would think is untenable given the media which has surrounded this case….in light of the said coverage I can at the very least say that the courts descision was not a conspiricy of official secrecy but has sound grounding in the circumstances around it…
Darrell wrote:
“you have clearly already prejudged this case by your use of prejorative remarks like ‘parasites’ etc and this is what lies behind your position.”
There is something you don’t seem to have spotted, Mr Rationalist. X, Y and O have already been CONVICTED. No prejudging, then.
Naming X, Y and O would have no bearing on the impartiality of a jury. As soon as the case began, the jury would realise who the defendants were. As Enoch Powell once put it, USE YOUR LOAF (something all good rationalists should know how to do).
Your final question you will need to address to X, Y and O. They should have thought about the consequences first before they embarked upon the torture and homicide of a defenceless child.
Darrell, you have still to answer my questions about Colonel Hugh Johnston and Janie Jones. Is the location of the Post Office Tower such a sensitive matter that we simply had to protect the identity of the security expert who showed the jury the plan of Fitzrovia? And the court really had to protect the feelings of those poor media celebrities who had hired prostitutes dressed in baby suits and carrying teddy bears, now didn’t it?
Sesenco,
Ok, that is a fair point.
On the impartiality of a jury I totally disagree. As soon as their names were released there would be full coverage in the news media of every detail of their lives. There is no way a jury could walk into a room and say with all clear conscience that they have no existing preconceptions about the defendants in a possible retrial ergo the trail would not be fair.
On the i’d need to ask them errr no; the fact remains that it is now the responsibility of the law to protect people who are innocent of any crime but tarred through association.
On the individual cases I made the point this is an exceptional case…which requires exceptional measures.
*trial is of course what I meant…
“Concretely, is it not true that if a retrial were to take place the chances of finding an impartial jury would be well down on zero if these people have been named?”
Ian Huntley got a fair trial (to the extent that one jury member voted to acquit IIRC) and he had been pretty widely named.
Darrell wrote:
“As soon as their names were released there would be full coverage in the news media of every detail of their lives. ”
Wrong. A preponderance of gossip would be replaced by a preponderance of accurate information.
A SECRET trial (which is what you want) can NEVER be fair.
X, Y and O were named by the Metropolitan Police when they were charged. The gagging order came later – when a power freak in the CPS asked for anonymity. Over the last two days, craven newspapers have been busily deleting X and Y from their website archives (the Sun entry vanished this morning) and ISP’s have been taking down customers’ pages. And we call this a “free” country!
“the fact remains that it is now the responsibility of the law to protect people who are innocent of any crime but tarred through association.”
Protect whom and from what? Direct me to the relevant statute.
“I made the point this is an exceptional case”
Is it more exceptional than R v West, or R v Sutcliffe, or R v Brady and Hindley? But you would doubtless protect them too, so I guess you are kind of consistent.
(That poor Mr West hanged himself in Winson Green nick because those beastly people were saying horrible things about him.)
Hywel,
I still would like an admission that this is not some conspiricy of officialdom. I mean why not lets go the whole hog, put TV cameras in courtrooms and beam the whole sorry show right across the world, all in the name of ‘open justice’?? Incidentally, if I am informed correctly there were proposals that we do that at conference but it was chucked out; thankfully…
To all those calling for the mask of anonymity to be lifted, can I:
A/ refer you to this story where trial of the man accused of kidnapping Shannon Matthews has had be postponed – no doubt at some not inconsiderate expense to the public purse -because the accused has been attacked in prison.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_yorkshire/7733289.stm
B/ point out that is known there are other children involved with Baby Ps family, and other charges may be brought against the family.
If the names of the persons concerned are widely circulated you can be sure that defence lawyers will be (and admittedly its what they are paid to do) claiming its almost impossible to ensure a fair trial for their client(s).
Surely what we ALL want in this tragic case is for justice to prevail. Lets make sure it can.
Sesenco,
But they are not having a secret trial are they?? Last time I checked they would get the same trial as anybody else which can hardly be called ’secret’.
As for a preponderence of fact we know that isnt the case…we know it would be hyped up and sensationalised beyond belife. So, the only reason you can think of asking for this is ‘power mania’ on behalf of the CPS?? Or do you think that they might have thought that naming them might have given the defence grounds on which to bring a retrial crashing down??
Protect them from half the people on this site if some of the comments are anything to go by…and since relatives partners etc are *innocent* I think we can agree that reasonable measures should be taken to ensure they are not brought to harm….
Darrell,
OF COURSE they had a secret trial! Their names were kept secret!
A simple question: Is truth more likely to be spoken when the names of the convicted parties are known or when they are kept secret?
Again, you show that you haven’t a clue how the system works. The gagging order was imposed at the committal stage. No-one was talking about a retrial then.
Who is threatening relatives of X, Y and O? No-one on this thread, methinks.
If innocent people are harassed, then they have remedies available to them.
Any reasonable person would surely concede that the public interest in the open administration of justice is of rather greater moment than someone’s hurt feelings, or the odd glare in the grocery shop.
Anyone really determined to do the vigilante stuff will find out who they are anyway.
The gentleman who thinks that gagging orders are capable of protecting prisoners from having slop-buckets poured over them is living in la-la land. The prison officers will tell the lags who they are anyway, gagging order or no gagging order.
I refer you to the comments Nick just made…
I have already dealt with those.
I would add, however, that Fred West had other children whom he had also abused and could have been the subject of further charges. But West was still named. Moreover, West’s brother, John, was charged with raping one of West’s daughters long after West had died. But West was still named.
Oh I see you answered at the end. Thats simply not my definition of what a secret trial is to be honest. A secret trial is one where the entire process is conducted behind closed doors…not one where the defendants dont have their names and full biographies splashed all over papers…
It doesnt matter what stage it came at; there are still concrete grounds for defending it in the here and now…i find your assertion that this was down to power mania somewhat bizzare because to my mind the reason the CPS would do this would be precisely to not lie any future trials on the line…and maybe they do have information that neither yourself nor I actually do.
I think reducing it down to a ‘glare in a grocery shop’ is probably understating a case too. No nobody has but surely it’s not beyond the realms of possibility that they would…
Is feeding the media frenzy in the public interest…i rather think not to be honest..
Darrell wrote:
“It doesnt matter what stage”
It matters a great deal!
For a start, it proves that it has nothing to do with a possible retrial, as you have falsely claimed (a shift in ground on your part, in any event).
It seems as though you could do with a few basic beginner’s lessons in how the criminal justice shystem works, because you obviously don’t have a clue.
I have hammered home the reasons why we have open justice in this country, but you choose not to listen.
You have a problem, Darrell, with your nanny paternalism.
On the one hand, you sneer at ordinary people for holding silly opinions and for having punitive attitudes towards child killers. On the other, you deny that decent, law-abiding people have any claim to moral superiority over unemployable, chain-smoking parasites, like X, Y and O. In fact, you seem to hint that it is “our” fault that they are like that!
You are onme muddled guy!
Sesenco;
Is it not possible at the CPS would have information on cases they were working on and would make a call for anonimity on those grounds??
At least you are now reminding people who started with the pomposity….it is not a ’shift’ more an issue which Alix raised and which is now part of this debate.
As a point of interest are you in favour of tv cameras in court rooms??
As I say i think its quite clear who started the pomposity from your comments there….funny how now I am muddled and barely two posts ago ‘at least I was consistent’….
We should be allowed access to his killers and be able to torture them to death ourselves
I have 3 children my youngest son is 17 months old it makes me sick to my stomach to read/hear/think about what the 3 pure evil monsters have done to this beautifull little angel. This judge better give them nothing less than life in prison. If I had my way I would tie the whole lot up in the centre of the prisons and let other inmates take turns to torture them all day, every day for the rest of their rotten lives as death is too good for these sickos!!
I have reservations about my grandsons safety, so obviously I contacted Useless Services (Social Services). First off you have to ring a call centre, then there is a 4 day ring back period. Finally I got a social worker to call at the family home & because the mother admitted to all I had said and promised to try harder I was told the file will be closed! Sorry to upset anyone but I am now seeking the help of a solicitor to have custody. I guarantee if anything happens to my grandson I will sue the departments who are supposed to protect OUR children.
Don’t be silly of course it won’t happen again, Quote We will learn from this Unquote, they’ll know how to hide their mistakes a lot better that’s what they mean.
Angry? I’m bloody livid!!!
And its happened again – another innocent little child has had his life ripped from him. What this child has had to ensure sickens me to the stomach. However what sickens me more is how the so called authorities have yet again failed to protect this poor baby. And lets face it – what will happen now…the social workers will continue to be overloaded with cases clearly unable to cope, the mother and her partner will probably do a little time in what will be a comfortable cell with TV, radio, warmth and nutritious food. This country is in need of a serious shake up with appropriate punishments for disgusting crimes like these. Hidden identities – I would have there faces spread over the papers for all to see, have them named and shamed and most of all be given an appropiate life sentence locked in a dirty cold cell.
listen, at the end of the day that baby’s life has been taken away no matter how many comments we leave or how many times we voice our opinions, nothing will change. nothing has changed since victoria clumbie’s death. i jus pray and hope that some social workers out there can just take it into their own hands and fight. hopefully when i graduate next year i hope to make a difference to as many childrens lives as i can regardlesss of what bosses will tell me, social workers can go out their and fight their own cases if they have the energy and heart to do it. you dont have to listen the ”boss” go further.
would you do that to your child?
CAPITAL PUNISHMENT should be bought back i just hope that sense comes before another child is brutally killed.
my heart goes out to baby p and to all those children who are suffering whilst we are sleeping.
Rest in peace and live happily in heaven inshallah.x.
this is the most disgusting thing i’ve ever heard of, how dare someone be aloud to do this to a boy so young. this ‘man’ (if you can call him it) is a disgrace to all things humain! swing a child from his ankles, bashing his head on the cot, torturing him so badly ..he deserves the be tortured, killing the ‘man’ is not good enough, he needs to go through the ordeal he put this little boy through, a boy who could no speak up about what is happening to him! his mother on the other hand she’s disgusting allowing this ‘man’ to do this to her only child, how could anyone let this happen? however i blame only the people in higher management of ’social services’ who dismissed this poor boys life, do they deserve this well paid job? no. they disgust me it’s all targets and profit. they’re no better than the people who lived with baby P really.
poor boy, rest in peace xx
The tragic story of Baby P will no doubt haunt all of us for the rest of our lives, I too like many have a baby (17 months old), I look at my inncocent happy child with tears in my eyes, coming to terms with what has happened to baby P will be a hard long road. In the public sector I have often heard the’lack of accountability’ phrase used too often – and in the case of Harringey council, enough said. I pray that if there are more cases out there, these are surfaced quickly and actions to protect the child are not just recorded on a useless and robotic system (a system made up of people!). I pray that there will be no more, but if these sick and evil child killers get let off time and time again, when will there ever be an end to these kind of devastating and sick cases???!!! Simply sickening
Perhaps there should be a register for people who fail these innocent children,whereby they can never work with them again.
Or better still the pay should be the national minimum wage thus ensuring whoever takes a post at being a social worker will be doing it for the good of the child rather than their own corrrupt pockets. We all work long & damn hard to pay our council taxes which enables these dispassionate b’s to remain in their jobs, only to have another child die.
How nice it must be for Haringay authorities to go home at night & sleep soundly, I can’t can you?
To beautiful baby P we of compassion are so, so sorry to have failed you. Bless you sweetheart.
im a mother of two and i own a nursery looking after children.im a child protection officer and i am sickend with what has happend with baby p.social services need to sort them selves out,it would be just like me not reporting a case out if i needed to report one.bang the child losses a life.very sad this country is not looking after children!!!!! at least no harm can come to him now.baby p and victoria are gone now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
im sickened, disgusted and apalled what has happened to baby p…. i have a little boy the same age and cant even beging to imagine what that liitle boy went through… 60 visits and not one of those pigs helped that innocent helpless little boy….. each and everyone of them should be hung drawn and quatered they make my skin crawl, call themselves professionals the only thing they are, are low life scum bags. When i heard what had happened to baby p my heart broke a went to see my son who was sleeping and cried my heart out to think that there are people in this world who could harm someone so little who all he would of ever wanted was a hug and a kiss from his mum…. His mother doesnt deserve to breathe or her partner or the other scum bag that lived with them…. they deserve everything that is coming to them and i hope they rott in hell…. i cant even look at the photos of baby p in the paper or on the news as it saddenes me so much… Haringay you deserve to be shut down and all should be locked up….
Baby P rest in peace little one and fly with the angels they will watch you, you dont have to suffer no more… God bless you sweetheart
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Hi does anyone have a picture of the murdering step-dad?
Darrell has a blind faith in the CPS to give anonymity to convicted child killers for the “right reasons”. Doubtless he has a similarly unquestioning faith in Sharon Shoesmith and Haringey Social Services. Gosh, wasn’t Shoesmith’s performance on prime-time TV one of the biggest public relations disasters of all time?! The woman is consumed with vanity and contempt – contempt for her own staff, and contempt for the people she is paid so handsomely to serve. No doubt she will get a whopper of a golden handshake like Roy George did in Ealing.
I see people are having Miss Y’s mugshot removed from their Facebook pages, in this “free” country of ours.
Si,
I have seen one on the internet, but the Thought Police are taking them down as soon as they appear.
The really scary thing about that trio is they look so “ordinary”.
Is there a ‘long term’ action group to follow the developments of the 3 murderers so we know what happens to them in prison and when they come out?
i just cant believe they are covering up the identity of the 3 scum bags there faces should be everywhere for everyone to see….. they were big enough to do what they have done so why the hell cant everyone see what they look like they shouldnt be allowed to hide away i hope they get the shit kicked out of them in prison
I’ve been so upset by this. I didn’t want to read any of the details this poor little soul went through. I’ve just been on the facebook site reading comments which helps a little bit, by just letting you know that there are decent people in this world who love little children. There was a link to the News of the World newspaper site. I’ve always hated this newspaper, but clicked on the link, but soon wished I hadn’t. I just couldn’t read on, it was just too awful and disturbing.
I’ve many a time shed tears on my own for this beautiful little baby boy who found himself in a world of monsters. I’m just heartbroken. I’m a single man. I’m not a father. You don’t have to be a father to feel pain for this little child so abused and tortured. You just have to be human.
That man who slowly killed this child is purely evil. The mother is equally to blame. Why oh why over all those months did no one do anything to help this little, lonely, terrified child?
Dear Little P,
I’m so, so sorry no one could help you.
Your little arm reaches out, but there was no one to lovingly take your little hand, and lead you from your perils to safety.
It seems everyone you encountered during your short time in this world failed you.
You were left alone in a world of monsters.
You seemed to know nothing but fear, pain and confusion during your short life; and consequently, you were never able to understood life.
You are now free of this. The fear and pain are gone, and the love you never knew surrounds you with warmth, for always. You have gone home and are safe.
I would have loved you little baby P,
and I’ll never forget you.
God Now Blesses You with the love for us all.
Jeffrey. x
Sesenco,
The council is a different matter; when all the reports and enquirys are done I rather suspect that some people will rightly lose their jobs. Shoesmiths position is untenable no matter what any of them say I would imagine.
Jeffery that is all so true what you have said…. and its probably the most heartbreaking thing that i have ever heard of…. i just cant get my head around what these people have done…. i put my son to bed this evening with a hug kiss and hug, looked into his eyes and it fills me with so much joy that i have him….. he is my world and i love him with all my heart…. i just dont understand????????
These people deserve nothing. They shouldn’t have any rights! Nothing can bring this little angel back now. Least they can do, is to lock them all up and torture the way they tortured this poor boy and even more brutal. Torture them every day, for the rest of their lives. Even then, their pain will be just physical. They won’t feel this mental pain that this abandoned boy felt. Little helpless boy that wanted nothing but love… All the people that let this boy die should be punished. Dumb, blind, irresponsible idiots shouldn’t be allowed to work anywhere else than sweeping the streets – and even that might be to much of a responsibility for them! Those 3 should be tortured to death and then rot in hell!
i really hope there is some beautiful place where all those innocent angels go and are happy for ever. Free from pain and tears. Living their second, eternal life where everything is so perfect, just like they deserve it.
rest in peace, little prince…
I work within an organisation where child protection is high on our priorities – I have been involved in a case where we, as an organisation, reported the situation to social services. Neighbours of this mother where also so concerned that they reported the situation to social services. In this so-called society where multi-agency working is imperative, I have found it extremely difficult to gain information in order to protect 2 children. Health visitors have ignored concerns as i am not a qualified health professional (even though I am still a qualified professional working with teenage mums and their children) – they made their decisions on a 30 minute visit and ignored any concerns of mine – what would I know – I only see the mother and children once a week for several months before they finally visited (after the mum had constantly ‘missed’ and ‘forgotten’ her appointments (the warning bells should have started ringing!!) – I had to constantly chase up the social worker – she was very busy with other high priority child protection court cases that the case i was involved in was simply put on the back burner, and now they have decided that it is the mum that needs more support (even when it has been evidenced that she will go out of her way to avoid support), and that the children are not at risk. Emotional abuse IS high priority and is an implication of something not being right in the home…. it is damaging…. the 2 year old had severe speech delayment, and his 9 month old sister had attachment problems. Even my manager’s opinions were by and large ignored, and she is a qualified social worker who spent the early part of her career working in children’s homes. We, as an organisation, feel these children are hugely at risk from the mother’s neglect and by the people that she invites into her home…. whilst other organisations continue to be ‘precious’ about the information they hold, claiming client confidentiality and data protection (especially considering that child protection concerns over-ride these laws) then multi-agency working WOULD be far more effective in protecting our children – until organisations work together then abuse, emotional, sexual and physical will continue resulting in more children becoming several damaged or dying. The organisations can then simply blame each other whilst noone takes responsibility and politicians use the case as a weapon to score points off each other. Yes the so-called carers of BabyP were responsible for his death, but they were allowed to continue to perpetrate their abuse because they had already got away with it so many times. The case of babyP is one tragedy in a line of many before him, and sadly many to come. Early intervention, proper multi agency working and continuous follow ups must happen in order for more BabyP’s to be made safe. This was alledgedly put in place following the tragedy of Victoria Climbie – and yet, 8 years later, with the same social sevices department involved, and the same hospitals involved, shows that no one has learnt or actually changed anything from a case that had supposedly changed the way that the government deals with the issue of child protection… Every Child Matters…. like hell they do!!! It is a sad sad world where people do not want to get involved when a child is so desperately in need of protection, and only gets the attention they deserve after they have died.
One other point in the case of child protection – what the hell was a 15 year old child doing living with a grown up man, and another couple – where are her parents? Where her school not aware of her living situation? Her GP? Why were social services not involved with her? Was Jason Owen not also charged with statutory rape? My mind just boggles!!!!
Most people seem more intent on wreaking vengeance on the murderers of baby p than preventing the same situation occurring again; May I therefore make a suggestion?
Social services plead shortage of staff and financial resources as excuses for overlooking torture of children (even after 60 visits to baby P ). In other European countries they take children from parents only if they have been severely physically or sexually abused but in Britain we waste most of out valuable resources fighting cruel cases in secret and costly courts to remove children and even new born babies at “risk of emotional harm” and for similar lesser reasons.The parents of baby P would never have gone to court to fight for his return if he had been taken earlier as parents that violently physically abuse their children avoid courts like the plague !
Physical torture KILLS KILLS KILLS !!!
Emotional abuse does NOT
Poor school attendance does NOT
A cluttered house does NOT
Witnessing domestic violence does NOT
Hostility to the “professionals” does NOT
A parent with learning problems does NOT
Where therefore should the “SS” priorities lie?
I’m only asking !!
I would have thought myself it was MORE IMPORTANT to concentrate on preventing babies being tortured rather than the more common rush to remove babies AT BIRTH from mothers whom some highly paid psychobabble merchants have decided may at some future date emotionally harm their babies !Crystal ball gazing ?
If all the resources of child protection were used to examine thoroughly all those children suspected of having been seriously physically or sexually abused thousands of children’s lives would be saved.At present our resources are wasted fighting in courts to remove happy healthy children from their parents for risk of emotional abuse and similar non life endangering symptoms.Only parents that truly love their children fight through the gruelling ritual of the secret family courts and against all common sense they nearly always lose If they dare to protest publicly more than 200 parents a year are jailed (answer to a parliamentary question) for breaking the “omerta” wall of secrecy ! !If only mothers facing a life sentence by losing children to forced adoption had the right to a hearing by jury most of the present injustices would disappear.In short ,what is needed is simply concentration on eradicating physical child abuse and hearings by jury who would rarely take children in other cases siuch as “emotional abuse”,cluttereddwellings, poor school attendance etc.
IAN JOSEPHS TEL 0033626875684
http://www.forced-adoption.com
There are so many people who would love to have a child but they can’t…such a beautiful, innocent boy suffering so much simply because he was born in the wrong place!!! I prey for Baby P and I do apologise to him with all my heart – I am sorry for all the horrible people you have met and who have let you down. I hope you are in a better place now…
Failing to protect children is not the only nefarious thing that Social Services Departments do.
A few years ago, a Labour Council Leader tried to have a private landlord sent to a lunatic asylum to stop him exposing corruption in the Housing Benefits Department. Social Services was more than willing to co-operate, but the man’s GP refused to play ball.
Who thought abuse of psychiatry was confined to Brezhnev’s Soviet Union?
i think baby ps mum is sick in the head and soo is the step dad and the people in the house that was watching this and let it carry on , and the social workers and the docter well if u ask mee i dont think any off theys people hav a heart, i recon they should all die a very painfull death like the way they did to baby p that child had no reson to die the way he did he should still be livin till this day if i was in that house watching that i would viscaly stab the people that did this to baby p they really have no reason for doing this. i dont think baby p parents should be i prison i think they should be in hell rottin away. baby p was the most gorgouse baby in the world how could u do such a thing xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx lov u baby p rest in peice xxxxxxx