Comments on: BBC’s The World at One focuses on Ming’s future http://www.libdemvoice.org/bbc%e2%80%99s-the-world-at-one-focuses-on-ming%e2%80%99s-future-1108.html Our place to talk - an independent website for supporters of the Liberal Democrat party in the UK. Sat, 11 Feb 2012 03:46:54 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Laurence Boyce http://www.libdemvoice.org/bbc%e2%80%99s-the-world-at-one-focuses-on-ming%e2%80%99s-future-1108.html#comment-27055 Laurence Boyce Tue, 07 Aug 2007 11:27:38 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/bbc%e2%80%99s-the-world-at-one-focuses-on-ming%e2%80%99s-future-1108.html#comment-27055 <i>It’s not effing pop idol.</i> It isn't??? You'd think <i>somebody</i> might have told me . . . It’s not effing pop idol.

It isn’t??? You’d think somebody might have told me . . .

]]> By: Howard S http://www.libdemvoice.org/bbc%e2%80%99s-the-world-at-one-focuses-on-ming%e2%80%99s-future-1108.html#comment-27053 Howard S Tue, 07 Aug 2007 11:00:07 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/bbc%e2%80%99s-the-world-at-one-focuses-on-ming%e2%80%99s-future-1108.html#comment-27053 Coming in a bit late on this thread, but I do have another perspective, as I actually joined the party on Ming's elevation to the top job. I don't regret that decision - and I find it extraordinary that he has come in for such a degree of scorching opprobrium here and elsewhere. Here's why I like Ming: 1. He speaks in proper sentences, which are interesting and make sense. I stop what I am doing and listen to what he has to say, because it goes beyond the glib and obvious more often than pretty well any other senior politician. 2. He dosen't rush to score petty party political points. Some might see this as a demerit - I don't. 3. He is currently the same age as Winston Churchill was when he became prime minister (for the first time) and about four years younger than Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman (yay!) was in 1905. The whizz-kid fixation is a recent phenomena - Blair was PM at 43, of course, and look where it's got us. 4. He had two successful careers prior to going into politics, and won his seat from an unpromising position on, I believe, the fourth attempt. Contrast this with the parachuting of Messrs Brown and Cameron into their cosy safe seats, after their previous exhilarating careers as politics lecturer and hack (yawn) and PR man for Carlton Television (God give me strength). If you're not convinced by any of that, then - as rehearsed above - please recognise it's both too soon and too late for another leadership contest, with the prospect of a general election looming. Make the most of the good man we've got. It's politics, it's serious, it's not effing pop idol. Coming in a bit late on this thread, but I do have another perspective, as I actually joined the party on Ming’s elevation to the top job. I don’t regret that decision – and I find it extraordinary that he has come in for such a degree of scorching opprobrium here and elsewhere.

Here’s why I like Ming:

1. He speaks in proper sentences, which are interesting and make sense. I stop what I am doing and listen to what he has to say, because it goes beyond the glib and obvious more often than pretty well any other senior politician.

2. He dosen’t rush to score petty party political points.
Some might see this as a demerit – I don’t.

3. He is currently the same age as Winston Churchill was when he became prime minister (for the first time) and about four years younger than Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman (yay!) was in 1905. The whizz-kid fixation is a recent phenomena – Blair was PM at 43, of course, and look where it’s got us.

4. He had two successful careers prior to going into politics, and won his seat from an unpromising position on, I believe, the fourth attempt. Contrast this with the parachuting of Messrs Brown
and Cameron into their cosy safe seats, after their previous exhilarating careers as politics lecturer and hack (yawn) and PR man for Carlton Television (God give me strength).

If you’re not convinced by any of that, then – as rehearsed above – please recognise it’s both too soon and too late for another leadership contest, with the prospect of a general election looming. Make the most of the good man we’ve got.
It’s politics, it’s serious, it’s not effing pop idol.

]]> By: Laurence Boyce http://www.libdemvoice.org/bbc%e2%80%99s-the-world-at-one-focuses-on-ming%e2%80%99s-future-1108.html#comment-26966 Laurence Boyce Mon, 06 Aug 2007 22:21:33 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/bbc%e2%80%99s-the-world-at-one-focuses-on-ming%e2%80%99s-future-1108.html#comment-26966 No. It's an opinion. No. It’s an opinion.

]]> By: Hywel Morgan http://www.libdemvoice.org/bbc%e2%80%99s-the-world-at-one-focuses-on-ming%e2%80%99s-future-1108.html#comment-26965 Hywel Morgan Mon, 06 Aug 2007 22:19:17 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/bbc%e2%80%99s-the-world-at-one-focuses-on-ming%e2%80%99s-future-1108.html#comment-26965 "All I know is that Sir Ming is not up to the job, and that Chris Huhne, say, would be." Is there any evidence for this statement? “All I know is that Sir Ming is not up to the job, and that Chris Huhne, say, would be.”

Is there any evidence for this statement?

]]> By: Letterman http://www.libdemvoice.org/bbc%e2%80%99s-the-world-at-one-focuses-on-ming%e2%80%99s-future-1108.html#comment-26945 Letterman Mon, 06 Aug 2007 21:08:16 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/bbc%e2%80%99s-the-world-at-one-focuses-on-ming%e2%80%99s-future-1108.html#comment-26945 *gazes at his navel* *gazes at his navel*

]]> By: Laurence Boyce http://www.libdemvoice.org/bbc%e2%80%99s-the-world-at-one-focuses-on-ming%e2%80%99s-future-1108.html#comment-26942 Laurence Boyce Mon, 06 Aug 2007 20:52:46 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/bbc%e2%80%99s-the-world-at-one-focuses-on-ming%e2%80%99s-future-1108.html#comment-26942 Well no, Sanders is wrong insofar as he is imputing to me an argument which I have not and will not make. I cannot guarantee that we will sweep to power under a new leader, indeed this seems unlikely at present. Nor can I guarantee that a meltdown will not ensue. All I know is that Sir Ming is not up to the job, and that Chris Huhne, say, would be. If you're all happy to go to an election with an unconvincing leader, then fine, but I think that's a bit like serving up half-baked food at a restaurant – don't be too surprised if it gets thrown back at you. By all means argue that Sir Ming is a great leader, but merely to argue that we're no worse off than we would be under another leader is essentially to have lost the argument in my view. On the other point, I was going to leave it at comment 54, and then again at comment 70, but people keep coming back at me! The thing to do is either to ignore me or agree with me :-) Well no, Sanders is wrong insofar as he is imputing to me an argument which I have not and will not make. I cannot guarantee that we will sweep to power under a new leader, indeed this seems unlikely at present. Nor can I guarantee that a meltdown will not ensue. All I know is that Sir Ming is not up to the job, and that Chris Huhne, say, would be. If you’re all happy to go to an election with an unconvincing leader, then fine, but I think that’s a bit like serving up half-baked food at a restaurant – don’t be too surprised if it gets thrown back at you. By all means argue that Sir Ming is a great leader, but merely to argue that we’re no worse off than we would be under another leader is essentially to have lost the argument in my view.

On the other point, I was going to leave it at comment 54, and then again at comment 70, but people keep coming back at me! The thing to do is either to ignore me or agree with me :-)

]]> By: Jeremy Hargreaves http://www.libdemvoice.org/bbc%e2%80%99s-the-world-at-one-focuses-on-ming%e2%80%99s-future-1108.html#comment-26919 Jeremy Hargreaves Mon, 06 Aug 2007 18:09:16 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/bbc%e2%80%99s-the-world-at-one-focuses-on-ming%e2%80%99s-future-1108.html#comment-26919 I completely disagree with no 79 - Jeremy Sanders' point (77) is absolutely *is* the point. If a loyal party member has an actual alternative plan for doing things better, then I think they're entitled to argue for that. But simply saying "I think our current leader is crap", as you keep doing Laurence, with no actual plan for improving things for the party, and just to make you feel better, is not the act of someone who has the best interests of the party at heart. By the way I am really all in favour of free speech and everything but is there any way of limiting the number of contributions from any one individual, just in the interests of the sanity of the rest of us, and the diversity of the site....there really is an *awful lot* of Laurence Boyce on this site - Laurence, obviously I do fully recognise your right to contribute, but is there any chance of limiting your contributions to, say, single figures a day...:-) I completely disagree with no 79 – Jeremy Sanders’ point (77) is absolutely *is* the point.

If a loyal party member has an actual alternative plan for doing things better, then I think they’re entitled to argue for that. But simply saying “I think our current leader is crap”, as you keep doing Laurence, with no actual plan for improving things for the party, and just to make you feel better, is not the act of someone who has the best interests of the party at heart.

By the way I am really all in favour of free speech and everything but is there any way of limiting the number of contributions from any one individual, just in the interests of the sanity of the rest of us, and the diversity of the site….there really is an *awful lot* of Laurence Boyce on this site – Laurence, obviously I do fully recognise your right to contribute, but is there any chance of limiting your contributions to, say, single figures a day…:-)

]]> By: Laurence Boyce http://www.libdemvoice.org/bbc%e2%80%99s-the-world-at-one-focuses-on-ming%e2%80%99s-future-1108.html#comment-26907 Laurence Boyce Mon, 06 Aug 2007 16:16:09 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/bbc%e2%80%99s-the-world-at-one-focuses-on-ming%e2%80%99s-future-1108.html#comment-26907 <i>Personally I didn’t vote for Ming, but the idea that replacing him by Nick Clegg, Chris Huhne, or whoever would suddenly revolutionise the whole political situation is simply nonsense.</i> I totally agree, but that's not the argument. The argument is that Sir Ming is not up to the job. Simple as that. To say that "we'd be no better off under another leader," is a counsel of despair. Personally I didn’t vote for Ming, but the idea that replacing him by Nick Clegg, Chris Huhne, or whoever would suddenly revolutionise the whole political situation is simply nonsense.

I totally agree, but that’s not the argument. The argument is that Sir Ming is not up to the job. Simple as that. To say that “we’d be no better off under another leader,” is a counsel of despair.

]]> By: James S http://www.libdemvoice.org/bbc%e2%80%99s-the-world-at-one-focuses-on-ming%e2%80%99s-future-1108.html#comment-26904 James S Mon, 06 Aug 2007 16:04:54 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/bbc%e2%80%99s-the-world-at-one-focuses-on-ming%e2%80%99s-future-1108.html#comment-26904 #77 has the point mostly down to a tee. Leadership isn't solely about the personality of the leader, it involves a combination of the whole team spurring impetus and building momentum. I personally think it should be taken as a credit to the party that we have such a strong front-bench capable of inspiring the speculation of any tormentor-aspirant! Were we to reverse the roles and ask who are alternative potential party leaders in the Labour or Conservative groups, we'd quickly discover, for all their greater numbers, their pools of talent are relatively shallower. #77 has the point mostly down to a tee.

Leadership isn’t solely about the personality of the leader, it involves a combination of the whole team spurring impetus and building momentum.

I personally think it should be taken as a credit to the party that we have such a strong front-bench capable of inspiring the speculation of any tormentor-aspirant!

Were we to reverse the roles and ask who are alternative potential party leaders in the Labour or Conservative groups, we’d quickly discover, for all their greater numbers, their pools of talent are relatively shallower.

]]> By: Jeremy Sanders http://www.libdemvoice.org/bbc%e2%80%99s-the-world-at-one-focuses-on-ming%e2%80%99s-future-1108.html#comment-26876 Jeremy Sanders Mon, 06 Aug 2007 12:57:38 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/bbc%e2%80%99s-the-world-at-one-focuses-on-ming%e2%80%99s-future-1108.html#comment-26876 The problem with this whole argument is that there seem to be certain people who believe that a party can sweep to political success simply by changing leaders. Given that a large proportion of these people seem to be Tories, you would have thought they would have learnt by experience over the last 10 years or so! Personally I didn't vote for Ming, but the idea that replacing him by Nick Clegg, Chris Huhne, or whoever would suddenly revolutionise the whole policial situation is simply nonsense. The problem with this whole argument is that there seem to be certain people who believe that a party can sweep to political success simply by changing leaders. Given that a large proportion of these people seem to be Tories, you would have thought they would have learnt by experience over the last 10 years or so!

Personally I didn’t vote for Ming, but the idea that replacing him by Nick Clegg, Chris Huhne, or whoever would suddenly revolutionise the whole policial situation is simply nonsense.

]]> By: D http://www.libdemvoice.org/bbc%e2%80%99s-the-world-at-one-focuses-on-ming%e2%80%99s-future-1108.html#comment-26863 D Mon, 06 Aug 2007 10:55:30 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/bbc%e2%80%99s-the-world-at-one-focuses-on-ming%e2%80%99s-future-1108.html#comment-26863 Coronation? I don't believe it would happen, but even if it did, a coronated leader would never have the same mandate than an elected leader, like Ming. So I think that if Lib Dems would switch Ming to some coronated leader, they were worse off. Coronation? I don’t believe it would happen, but even if it did, a coronated leader would never have the same mandate than an elected leader, like Ming. So I think that if Lib Dems would switch Ming to some coronated leader, they were worse off.

]]> By: Laurence Boyce http://www.libdemvoice.org/bbc%e2%80%99s-the-world-at-one-focuses-on-ming%e2%80%99s-future-1108.html#comment-26415 Laurence Boyce Fri, 03 Aug 2007 18:55:51 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/bbc%e2%80%99s-the-world-at-one-focuses-on-ming%e2%80%99s-future-1108.html#comment-26415 Wow, that's so wrong, it's quite funny. In my youth I was very right-wing, largely on account of a somewhat odious upbringing. But I still lean to the right today, though I am certainly no Conservative. In fact I was dismayed a few weeks ago to hear Sir Ming describe the Liberal Democrats as a party of the "centre-left" on Question Time. In my view, we should be tacking to the right at this moment. As for your Marxist analysis, well it would give Norman a run for his money in the fruitcake stakes. This has got to be a wind up. Wow, that’s so wrong, it’s quite funny. In my youth I was very right-wing, largely on account of a somewhat odious upbringing. But I still lean to the right today, though I am certainly no Conservative. In fact I was dismayed a few weeks ago to hear Sir Ming describe the Liberal Democrats as a party of the “centre-left” on Question Time. In my view, we should be tacking to the right at this moment. As for your Marxist analysis, well it would give Norman a run for his money in the fruitcake stakes. This has got to be a wind up.

]]> By: Angus Huck http://www.libdemvoice.org/bbc%e2%80%99s-the-world-at-one-focuses-on-ming%e2%80%99s-future-1108.html#comment-26409 Angus Huck Fri, 03 Aug 2007 18:25:00 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/bbc%e2%80%99s-the-world-at-one-focuses-on-ming%e2%80%99s-future-1108.html#comment-26409 In the 1970s, Laurence would have been a student lefty, quoting Marx, Lenin and Jean-Paul Sartre, and possibly also Mao and Comrade Enver Hoxha. He is a militant atheist and materialist, fancies himself as an intellectual, and has the bullying, sneering manner to go with it. All the ingredients of the classic raging Trot. His attitude to Norman Baker is telling. A Marxist would say Norman is diverting the workers from the revolutionary struggle with his agitation for high standards of probity in public life, his outing of corrupt ministers, and his investigations into high-level skulduggery. A similar excuse lay behind the odious public school know-all, Monbiot's attack on the 9-11 Truth Movement. Something I will wager. If Laurence falls seriously ill, just watch how fast he rushes round to the local priest for absolution. Am I being too hard on Laurence? In the 1970s, Laurence would have been a student lefty, quoting Marx, Lenin and Jean-Paul Sartre, and possibly also Mao and Comrade Enver Hoxha. He is a militant atheist and materialist, fancies himself as an intellectual, and has the bullying, sneering manner to go with it. All the ingredients of the classic raging Trot.

His attitude to Norman Baker is telling. A Marxist would say Norman is diverting the workers from the revolutionary struggle with his agitation for high standards of probity in public life, his outing of corrupt ministers, and his investigations into high-level skulduggery. A similar excuse lay behind the odious public school know-all, Monbiot’s attack on the 9-11 Truth Movement.

Something I will wager. If Laurence falls seriously ill, just watch how fast he rushes round to the local priest for absolution.

Am I being too hard on Laurence?

]]> By: Paul L http://www.libdemvoice.org/bbc%e2%80%99s-the-world-at-one-focuses-on-ming%e2%80%99s-future-1108.html#comment-26336 Paul L Fri, 03 Aug 2007 10:00:46 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/bbc%e2%80%99s-the-world-at-one-focuses-on-ming%e2%80%99s-future-1108.html#comment-26336 I agree wholeheartedly with James S at 51 especially the last part - we must get on with it! The results in ealing and sedgefield were good and really down to this that we as a party got on with the fight and were united and clear in the messages we got to the electorate - messages which have substance and aren't just about image. Shame that this is the only way Lib Dems get any publicity in the media at present - but we've got to be more relevent and we've got to talk up our policy differences from both the other two parties to do that. we could all come up with criticisms of the leadership - best if at this stage i the parliament they are 'constructive' ones - i.e. given where we are what can we do better and how are we going to get the message over in the forthcoming GE. This year's conference is most likely the last one for the election - no time for a leadership election even if that were desirable - so better focus on the real political battle - the external one with the Tories and Labour. I agree wholeheartedly with James S at 51 especially the last part – we must get on with it!

The results in ealing and sedgefield were good and really down to this that we as a party got on with the fight and were united and clear in the messages we got to the electorate – messages which have substance and aren’t just about image.

Shame that this is the only way Lib Dems get any publicity in the media at present – but we’ve got to be more relevent and we’ve got to talk up our policy differences from both the other two parties to do that.

we could all come up with criticisms of the leadership – best if at this stage i the parliament they are ‘constructive’ ones – i.e. given where we are what can we do better and how are we going to get the message over in the forthcoming GE.

This year’s conference is most likely the last one for the election – no time for a leadership election even if that were desirable – so better focus on the real political battle – the external one with the Tories and Labour.

]]> By: Barry Scott http://www.libdemvoice.org/bbc%e2%80%99s-the-world-at-one-focuses-on-ming%e2%80%99s-future-1108.html#comment-26331 Barry Scott Fri, 03 Aug 2007 09:03:01 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/bbc%e2%80%99s-the-world-at-one-focuses-on-ming%e2%80%99s-future-1108.html#comment-26331 As others have pointed out, the problem with Laurence's argument is that it relies on all of us uniting around one candidate. Which wouldn't happen. Clegg and Huhne would be bound to run and even though I agree Lembit's got no chance, I suspect he'll try. That's not to mention Ed Davey and possibly (though I think it would be ill-advised) Charles Kennedy. Unlike with the Tories post-IDS, there is no natural candidate for everyone to coalesce around. Plus in principle as Liberal Democrats I believe that we ought to be advocating an open contest in any case. As others have pointed out, the problem with Laurence’s argument is that it relies on all of us uniting around one candidate. Which wouldn’t happen.

Clegg and Huhne would be bound to run and even though I agree Lembit’s got no chance, I suspect he’ll try. That’s not to mention Ed Davey and possibly (though I think it would be ill-advised) Charles Kennedy.

Unlike with the Tories post-IDS, there is no natural candidate for everyone to coalesce around. Plus in principle as Liberal Democrats I believe that we ought to be advocating an open contest in any case.

]]> By: Paul Walter http://www.libdemvoice.org/bbc%e2%80%99s-the-world-at-one-focuses-on-ming%e2%80%99s-future-1108.html#comment-26328 Paul Walter Fri, 03 Aug 2007 08:39:18 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/bbc%e2%80%99s-the-world-at-one-focuses-on-ming%e2%80%99s-future-1108.html#comment-26328 Exactly!!!!!! I was hoping you would spot that and that it would cause extra grating! ;-) Quick - think of something else to say - this must be well on course to being the most commented LDV story ever! Exactly!!!!!! I was hoping you would spot that and that it would cause extra grating! ;-)

Quick – think of something else to say – this must be well on course to being the most commented LDV story ever!

]]> By: Laurence Boyce http://www.libdemvoice.org/bbc%e2%80%99s-the-world-at-one-focuses-on-ming%e2%80%99s-future-1108.html#comment-26321 Laurence Boyce Fri, 03 Aug 2007 08:02:13 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/bbc%e2%80%99s-the-world-at-one-focuses-on-ming%e2%80%99s-future-1108.html#comment-26321 It is a bit. Especially as you said the same thing to Linda :-) It is a bit. Especially as you said the same thing to Linda :-)

]]> By: Paul Walter http://www.libdemvoice.org/bbc%e2%80%99s-the-world-at-one-focuses-on-ming%e2%80%99s-future-1108.html#comment-26306 Paul Walter Fri, 03 Aug 2007 05:35:32 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/bbc%e2%80%99s-the-world-at-one-focuses-on-ming%e2%80%99s-future-1108.html#comment-26306 I don't find you irritating at all Laurence. You are a diamond in the LibDem blogging jewel-box. .....now you must find that irritating, surely? I don’t find you irritating at all Laurence. You are a diamond in the LibDem blogging jewel-box.

…..now you must find that irritating, surely?

]]> By: Laurence Boyce http://www.libdemvoice.org/bbc%e2%80%99s-the-world-at-one-focuses-on-ming%e2%80%99s-future-1108.html#comment-26289 Laurence Boyce Fri, 03 Aug 2007 02:30:17 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/bbc%e2%80%99s-the-world-at-one-focuses-on-ming%e2%80%99s-future-1108.html#comment-26289 a) Correct. b) I drink rather a lot of wine. c) I don't even know who this Grant Shapps guy is. d) I wouldn't say that I'm a <i>total</i> idiot. But I've noticed that some people do find me irritating, though I really can't think why. I'm only trying to help! a) Correct.
b) I drink rather a lot of wine.
c) I don’t even know who this Grant Shapps guy is.
d) I wouldn’t say that I’m a total idiot. But I’ve noticed that some people do find me irritating, though I really can’t think why. I’m only trying to help!

]]> By: leowatkins http://www.libdemvoice.org/bbc%e2%80%99s-the-world-at-one-focuses-on-ming%e2%80%99s-future-1108.html#comment-26285 leowatkins Fri, 03 Aug 2007 02:09:12 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/bbc%e2%80%99s-the-world-at-one-focuses-on-ming%e2%80%99s-future-1108.html#comment-26285 Laurence, i'm afraid i've been harbouring a deep suspicion that you are one of the following: a) perpetually stuck in a state of mental adolescence b) on some kind of narcotic drug c) grant shapps in disguise, in what is one of the worst practical jokes since the establishment of the papacy (full offence to any catholics) d) just a complete idiot with nothing better to do than prat about on LDV and general irritate people so tell me old bean, which one is it? Laurence, i’m afraid i’ve been harbouring a deep suspicion that you are one of the following:

a) perpetually stuck in a state of mental adolescence

b) on some kind of narcotic drug

c) grant shapps in disguise, in what is one of the worst practical jokes since the establishment of the papacy (full offence to any catholics)

d) just a complete idiot with nothing better to do than prat about on LDV and general irritate people

so tell me old bean, which one is it?

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