Comments on: Clegg calls for Lib Dem “narrative” http://www.libdemvoice.org/clegg-calls-for-lib-dem-narrative-810.html Our place to talk - an independent website for supporters of the Liberal Democrat party in the UK. Sat, 11 Feb 2012 03:46:54 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Duncan Borrowman http://www.libdemvoice.org/clegg-calls-for-lib-dem-narrative-810.html#comment-16158 Duncan Borrowman Wed, 30 May 2007 20:19:35 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/clegg-calls-for-lib-dem-narrative-810.html#comment-16158 Peace, Reform and Liberation is a slogan, not a narrative. Peace, Reform and Liberation is a slogan, not a narrative.

]]> By: Hywel Morgan http://www.libdemvoice.org/clegg-calls-for-lib-dem-narrative-810.html#comment-16148 Hywel Morgan Wed, 30 May 2007 19:14:11 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/clegg-calls-for-lib-dem-narrative-810.html#comment-16148 At the weekend one of the songs from the Liberator songbook popped into my head. I thought "Peace, Reform and Liberation" had rather a good ring... :-) At the weekend one of the songs from the Liberator songbook popped into my head.

I thought “Peace, Reform and Liberation” had rather a good ring… :-)

]]> By: Tom Papworth http://www.libdemvoice.org/clegg-calls-for-lib-dem-narrative-810.html#comment-16143 Tom Papworth Wed, 30 May 2007 18:27:08 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/clegg-calls-for-lib-dem-narrative-810.html#comment-16143 Boy, I've come to <i>this</i> late! I’ve always thought “It’s about freedom” summed it up, but even better is “Trust the people”. I’ve never yet found somebody who does not agree that their life would be better if they were in more control. Even the socialists are usually worrying about <i>other</i> people and not themselves. We need to push personal freedom and personal responsibility; localism as against statism; smaller and more efficient government; lower and fairer taxes; individual empowerment in <i>every</i> area of life. If that leads to “a funeral pyre of proscriptive conference motions and policy documents” (Rob Fenwick) then hand me the matches! I was the <a HREF="http://liberalpolemic.blogspot.com/2007/02/together-we-can-cut-crime-rejecting.html" rel="nofollow"> lone voice at Conference</A> pointing out that Nick “Great Repeal Act” Clegg’s Together We Can Cut Crime policy paper was filled with new meddling regulations that would allow bureaucrats to interfere in private lives and businesses. I agree with the big-faced bureaucrat: “Liberalism comes with a clear philosophy and it’s about time we applied it…” Boy, I’ve come to this late!

I’ve always thought “It’s about freedom” summed it up, but even better is “Trust the people”. I’ve never yet found somebody who does not agree that their life would be better if they were in more control. Even the socialists are usually worrying about other people and not themselves.

We need to push personal freedom and personal responsibility; localism as against statism; smaller and more efficient government; lower and fairer taxes; individual empowerment in every area of life.

If that leads to “a funeral pyre of proscriptive conference motions and policy documents” (Rob Fenwick) then hand me the matches! I was the lone voice at Conference pointing out that Nick “Great Repeal Act” Clegg’s Together We Can Cut Crime policy paper was filled with new meddling regulations that would allow bureaucrats to interfere in private lives and businesses.

I agree with the big-faced bureaucrat: “Liberalism comes with a clear philosophy and it’s about time we applied it…”

]]> By: Hywel Morgan http://www.libdemvoice.org/clegg-calls-for-lib-dem-narrative-810.html#comment-14548 Hywel Morgan Fri, 18 May 2007 10:36:07 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/clegg-calls-for-lib-dem-narrative-810.html#comment-14548 "In my region a common characteristic of LDs taking local power is their poor ability to manage." Maybe because they try to manage rather than change. “In my region a common characteristic of LDs taking local power is their poor ability to manage.”

Maybe because they try to manage rather than change.

]]> By: Peter http://www.libdemvoice.org/clegg-calls-for-lib-dem-narrative-810.html#comment-14537 Peter Fri, 18 May 2007 09:58:08 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/clegg-calls-for-lib-dem-narrative-810.html#comment-14537 25 - this fantastic paragraph is to be found in the Thorpe piece "But the immediate crisis - desperate as it is - is only the culmination of a long process of deterioration in our ability, and the capacity of our political and social institutions, to manage our counntry's affairs efficiently and with tolerable sanity." Scarcely designed for Sun readers. The 1970s message was that Britain was being torn apart by class conflict, and that we were the constructive solution. It is harder to make that case nowadays. 25 – this fantastic paragraph is to be found in the Thorpe piece

“But the immediate crisis – desperate as it is – is only the culmination of a long process of deterioration in our ability, and the capacity of our political and social institutions, to manage our counntry’s affairs efficiently and with tolerable sanity.”

Scarcely designed for Sun readers.

The 1970s message was that Britain was being torn apart by class conflict, and that we were the constructive solution. It is harder to make that case nowadays.

]]> By: dreamingspire http://www.libdemvoice.org/clegg-calls-for-lib-dem-narrative-810.html#comment-14513 dreamingspire Fri, 18 May 2007 06:34:54 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/clegg-calls-for-lib-dem-narrative-810.html#comment-14513 In my region a common characteristic of LDs taking local power is their poor ability to manage. It becomes a shooting themselves in the foot progress, but with some individuals who strive to deliver really good outcomes. The implication is that too many LD political hopefuls are muddlers. First develop and use the narrative internally, please - if there is a snap election, there isn't time to develop and use the narrative in public, and if the election isn't until 2010 there is time to sharpen up internally and then open up. In my region a common characteristic of LDs taking local power is their poor ability to manage. It becomes a shooting themselves in the foot progress, but with some individuals who strive to deliver really good outcomes. The implication is that too many LD political hopefuls are muddlers. First develop and use the narrative internally, please – if there is a snap election, there isn’t time to develop and use the narrative in public, and if the election isn’t until 2010 there is time to sharpen up internally and then open up.

]]> By: Mark Valladares http://www.libdemvoice.org/clegg-calls-for-lib-dem-narrative-810.html#comment-14474 Mark Valladares Thu, 17 May 2007 23:51:52 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/clegg-calls-for-lib-dem-narrative-810.html#comment-14474 And what's wrong with faceless bureaucrats anyway? But seriously, why can't we talk about freedom with responsibility, about giving people a real say about the decisions that affect their day to day lives? Now that's what I call a narrative. Frankly, I'm bored of being against things and talking about woolly concepts like fairness. Fairness to whom? Liberalism comes with a clear philosophy and it's about time we applied it... And what’s wrong with faceless bureaucrats anyway?

But seriously, why can’t we talk about freedom with responsibility, about giving people a real say about the decisions that affect their day to day lives? Now that’s what I call a narrative.

Frankly, I’m bored of being against things and talking about woolly concepts like fairness. Fairness to whom? Liberalism comes with a clear philosophy and it’s about time we applied it…

]]> By: Hywel Morgan http://www.libdemvoice.org/clegg-calls-for-lib-dem-narrative-810.html#comment-14469 Hywel Morgan Thu, 17 May 2007 23:00:56 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/clegg-calls-for-lib-dem-narrative-810.html#comment-14469 James (G) - I share you view on the FE. Just think this is a particularly glaring illustration of how useless it is James (G) – I share you view on the FE. Just think this is a particularly glaring illustration of how useless it is

]]> By: Martin http://www.libdemvoice.org/clegg-calls-for-lib-dem-narrative-810.html#comment-14467 Martin Thu, 17 May 2007 22:45:12 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/clegg-calls-for-lib-dem-narrative-810.html#comment-14467 Peter, Let's be even glibber... <a href="http://www.libdems.co.uk/manifestos/1974/feb/february-1974-liberal-manifesto.shtml" rel="nofollow">February 1974 General Election...</a> <blockquote>Take Power. Vote Liberal. You can change the face of Britain. </blockquote> Peter,

Let’s be even glibber… February 1974 General Election…

Take Power. Vote Liberal.

You can change the face of Britain.

]]> By: James S http://www.libdemvoice.org/clegg-calls-for-lib-dem-narrative-810.html#comment-14443 James S Thu, 17 May 2007 17:54:49 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/clegg-calls-for-lib-dem-narrative-810.html#comment-14443 Too much narrative blurs the picture, just like too much focus on policy causes headaches by magnifying healthy debating positions into splits. Impatient calls for momentum will be answered if we hit a downward slope, better to emulate Sisyphous with continual effort upward. Good sense demands balance and perspective, let others carp and criticise. Too much narrative blurs the picture, just like too much focus on policy causes headaches by magnifying healthy debating positions into splits.
Impatient calls for momentum will be answered if we hit a downward slope, better to emulate Sisyphous with continual effort upward.
Good sense demands balance and perspective, let others carp and criticise.

]]> By: Peter http://www.libdemvoice.org/clegg-calls-for-lib-dem-narrative-810.html#comment-14441 Peter Thu, 17 May 2007 17:36:06 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/clegg-calls-for-lib-dem-narrative-810.html#comment-14441 Rob said\ "Ah, now you’re talking. I can cope with a narrative that can be summed up (albeit glibly) as “power to the people”, but I hope we’re prepared for a funeral pyre of proscriptive conference motions and policy documents in order to deliver it." There's the problem with the narrative then - too much policy. Rob said\
“Ah, now you’re talking. I can cope with a narrative that can be summed up (albeit glibly) as “power to the people”, but I hope we’re prepared for a funeral pyre of proscriptive conference motions and policy documents in order to deliver it.”

There’s the problem with the narrative then – too much policy.

]]> By: James Graham http://www.libdemvoice.org/clegg-calls-for-lib-dem-narrative-810.html#comment-14422 James Graham Thu, 17 May 2007 15:29:36 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/clegg-calls-for-lib-dem-narrative-810.html#comment-14422 You could try that Hywel, but the majority of the FE is content to be compliant, not least of all because the majority of the membership is content to be compliant. One of the reasons I'm so sceptical about attacking the leadership is that as far as I can see the grassroots have got EXACTLY the party they have always voted for. Whenever people have called on them to rise up and take a stand, they just shuffle their feet. That's democracy for you! :) You could try that Hywel, but the majority of the FE is content to be compliant, not least of all because the majority of the membership is content to be compliant. One of the reasons I’m so sceptical about attacking the leadership is that as far as I can see the grassroots have got EXACTLY the party they have always voted for.

Whenever people have called on them to rise up and take a stand, they just shuffle their feet. That’s democracy for you! :)

]]> By: Hywel Morgan http://www.libdemvoice.org/clegg-calls-for-lib-dem-narrative-810.html#comment-14394 Hywel Morgan Thu, 17 May 2007 12:51:18 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/clegg-calls-for-lib-dem-narrative-810.html#comment-14394 So the question is what purpose does the FE and those elected to it actually serve? Not wishing to shoot the good guys but if there's been zero progress on a key issue after two years you'd usually start talking about no confidence. I'd email the President to complain but he only seems to reply to emails when he's running for leader. So the question is what purpose does the FE and those elected to it actually serve?

Not wishing to shoot the good guys but if there’s been zero progress on a key issue after two years you’d usually start talking about no confidence.

I’d email the President to complain but he only seems to reply to emails when he’s running for leader.

]]> By: Meral Ece, http://www.libdemvoice.org/clegg-calls-for-lib-dem-narrative-810.html#comment-14392 Meral Ece, Thu, 17 May 2007 12:16:46 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/clegg-calls-for-lib-dem-narrative-810.html#comment-14392 Just want to reassure James that there's been no earthquake on FE. If there has, I haven't felt it... Just want to reassure James that there’s been no earthquake on FE. If there has, I haven’t felt it…

]]> By: scottmrennie http://www.libdemvoice.org/clegg-calls-for-lib-dem-narrative-810.html#comment-14384 scottmrennie Thu, 17 May 2007 10:49:14 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/clegg-calls-for-lib-dem-narrative-810.html#comment-14384 This is my first time contributing. Be gentle! Following on from the Scottish elections, our experience north of the border resonates with this debate. We had a good manifesto with some great policies but no narrative, at least not in the public conscienceness. That is a big problem. People would ask me "what are the Liberals for?" In an even more crowded political market place than in England, identity is very important and asking this basic philosophical question - what is Liberalism today, in British Society - and framing the answer in a set of coherent policies that tell a story, must be the answer. Easier said than done I guess, but there must be more able minds than mine who are up to the task. This is my first time contributing. Be gentle! Following on from the Scottish elections, our experience north of the border resonates with this debate. We had a good manifesto with some great policies but no narrative, at least not in the public conscienceness. That is a big problem. People would ask me “what are the Liberals for?” In an even more crowded political market place than in England, identity is very important and asking this basic philosophical question – what is Liberalism today, in British Society – and framing the answer in a set of coherent policies that tell a story, must be the answer.

Easier said than done I guess, but there must be more able minds than mine who are up to the task.

]]> By: Leveller http://www.libdemvoice.org/clegg-calls-for-lib-dem-narrative-810.html#comment-14248 Leveller Wed, 16 May 2007 07:48:12 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/clegg-calls-for-lib-dem-narrative-810.html#comment-14248 In the words of the song - "There's only one way of life (and that's your own)" (unless of course you're 'harming' somone else)! In the words of the song – “There’s only one way of life (and that’s your own)”

(unless of course you’re ‘harming’ somone else)!

]]> By: Rob Fenwick http://www.libdemvoice.org/clegg-calls-for-lib-dem-narrative-810.html#comment-14213 Rob Fenwick Tue, 15 May 2007 21:54:08 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/clegg-calls-for-lib-dem-narrative-810.html#comment-14213 <blockquote>A party that wants to help you “take back your democracy”. That rails against the “big brother society”. </blockquote> Hmm. Doesn't get my bins collected once a week. Next! <blockquote> That champions “decisions made by you” - not faceless bureaucrats in Whitehall.</blockquote> Ah, now you're talking. I can cope with a narrative that can be summed up (albeit glibly) as "power to the people", but I hope we're prepared for a funeral pyre of proscriptive conference motions and policy documents in order to deliver it.

A party that wants to help you “take back your democracy”.

That rails against the “big brother society”.

Hmm. Doesn’t get my bins collected once a week. Next!

That champions “decisions made by you” – not faceless bureaucrats in Whitehall.

Ah, now you’re talking. I can cope with a narrative that can be summed up (albeit glibly) as “power to the people”, but I hope we’re prepared for a funeral pyre of proscriptive conference motions and policy documents in order to deliver it.

]]> By: James Spackman http://www.libdemvoice.org/clegg-calls-for-lib-dem-narrative-810.html#comment-14212 James Spackman Tue, 15 May 2007 21:38:27 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/clegg-calls-for-lib-dem-narrative-810.html#comment-14212 Lot's of umming and ahhing is the problem - leadership requires decisiveness. We know who we are and now we are telling people. The narrative has changed - we are no longer questioning our stomach for the fight, we are fighting our corner...the pendulum is swinging and the clock is now ticking. Do we spread the message that we are prepared for office and ready to take it on? Do we keep on keeping on? ...well we're not giving up! Do you want to talk spades and shovels, or do you want to dig for victory? Lot’s of umming and ahhing is the problem – leadership requires decisiveness.
We know who we are and now we are telling people.
The narrative has changed – we are no longer questioning our stomach for the fight, we are fighting our corner…the pendulum is swinging and the clock is now ticking.
Do we spread the message that we are prepared for office and ready to take it on? Do we keep on keeping on? …well we’re not giving up!

Do you want to talk spades and shovels, or do you want to dig for victory?

]]> By: Geoff Payne http://www.libdemvoice.org/clegg-calls-for-lib-dem-narrative-810.html#comment-14208 Geoff Payne Tue, 15 May 2007 21:07:20 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/clegg-calls-for-lib-dem-narrative-810.html#comment-14208 Joe, You are completely over the top in your interpretation of my message, although I did expect a response such as yours. I suggested a "critique of capitalism". That does not imply socialism. If I wanted socialism I would have said so. However we should not be naive about capitalism. Stern referred to global warming as the greatest market failure. Stern is a capitalist who nonetheless has a critique of capitalism. And justifiably so. In the US the main lobby groups opposed to supporting Kyoto are financed from the business sector. Ryan Air have launched a vitriolic campaign trying to absolve them from paying green taxes, even the Tories don't agree with them. I have been in the Liberal Party and the Lib Dems for well over 20 years, and I do not remember them being so timid in their analysis of capitalism. Joe,
You are completely over the top in your interpretation of my message, although I did expect a response such as yours.
I suggested a “critique of capitalism”. That does not imply socialism. If I wanted socialism I would have said so. However we should not be naive about capitalism. Stern referred to global warming as the greatest market failure. Stern is a capitalist who nonetheless has a critique of capitalism. And justifiably so. In the US the main lobby groups opposed to supporting Kyoto are financed from the business sector. Ryan Air have launched a vitriolic campaign trying to absolve them from paying green taxes, even the Tories don’t agree with them.
I have been in the Liberal Party and the Lib Dems for well over 20 years, and I do not remember them being so timid in their analysis of capitalism.

]]> By: Rob Fenwick http://www.libdemvoice.org/clegg-calls-for-lib-dem-narrative-810.html#comment-14193 Rob Fenwick Tue, 15 May 2007 16:27:32 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/clegg-calls-for-lib-dem-narrative-810.html#comment-14193 Oh, that's a shame, that site was one of my projects... it was probably taken down because the hosting cost a bit of money (separate hosting package to the main Lib Dem web server)... it was on an annual billing cycle, so probably they decided not to renew. I would've taken a copy of the site for them if they'd asked. The text of the site, without graphics, still appears to be largely accessible here though: http://web.archive.org/web/20060424064251/http://www.meetingthechallenge.net/ Oh, that’s a shame, that site was one of my projects… it was probably taken down because the hosting cost a bit of money (separate hosting package to the main Lib Dem web server)… it was on an annual billing cycle, so probably they decided not to renew. I would’ve taken a copy of the site for them if they’d asked.

The text of the site, without graphics, still appears to be largely accessible here though:

http://web.archive.org/web/20060424064251/http://www.meetingthechallenge.net/

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