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	<title>Comments on: Cometh the hour, cometh PR?</title>
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		<title>By: Sesenco</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/cometh-the-hour-cometh-pr-15142.html#comment-91297</link>
		<dc:creator>Sesenco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 May 2009 11:35:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=15142#comment-91297</guid>
		<description>We need to remove from our minds the slightest silly notion that Cameron is interested in &quot;reform&quot;. Cameron is a servant of the US military-industrial-petro-chemical complex and once in Downing Street will follow Washington&#039;s orders with utmost servility - just as Blair did. (Anyone who doubts me should recall that Cameron&#039;s election to the Tory leadership was engineered by the Republican neocon pollster, Frank Luntz.)

Cameron doesn&#039;t want more democracy, he wants less. Hence his opposition to PR, his call for fewer MPs, and his unwillingness to have a 100% elected House of Lords. When Cameron says he wants to give MPs more power, I laugh. MPs already have plenary jurisdiction. The problem is that MPs don&#039;t use the powers they have and are content to be supine puppets of the party system (and its North American puppet-masters). Cameron is an oleaginous PR showman with a silver tongue, and the key in his back is turned in Washington.

What is so frightening about the media frenzy over MPs over-claiming expenses is the ease with which the neocons and their media marionettes have turned the people against democracy. What comes next? War with Iran? The micro-chipping of the population? And how soon? After all, almost all of the poeple can be fooled almost all of the time, as the Barclay brothers, Murdoch and Desmond have demonstrated.

Who is going to stop this country being turned into a semi-fascist police state governed by the mega-rich for the mega-rich? It is unlikely that our elected representatives are going to be able to do much, even if they felt so inclined, because the people have been conned into hating and mistrusting them.

Alix Mortimer - when are you going to throw the wool off your eyes?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We need to remove from our minds the slightest silly notion that Cameron is interested in &#8220;reform&#8221;. Cameron is a servant of the US military-industrial-petro-chemical complex and once in Downing Street will follow Washington&#8217;s orders with utmost servility &#8211; just as Blair did. (Anyone who doubts me should recall that Cameron&#8217;s election to the Tory leadership was engineered by the Republican neocon pollster, Frank Luntz.)</p>
<p>Cameron doesn&#8217;t want more democracy, he wants less. Hence his opposition to PR, his call for fewer MPs, and his unwillingness to have a 100% elected House of Lords. When Cameron says he wants to give MPs more power, I laugh. MPs already have plenary jurisdiction. The problem is that MPs don&#8217;t use the powers they have and are content to be supine puppets of the party system (and its North American puppet-masters). Cameron is an oleaginous PR showman with a silver tongue, and the key in his back is turned in Washington.</p>
<p>What is so frightening about the media frenzy over MPs over-claiming expenses is the ease with which the neocons and their media marionettes have turned the people against democracy. What comes next? War with Iran? The micro-chipping of the population? And how soon? After all, almost all of the poeple can be fooled almost all of the time, as the Barclay brothers, Murdoch and Desmond have demonstrated.</p>
<p>Who is going to stop this country being turned into a semi-fascist police state governed by the mega-rich for the mega-rich? It is unlikely that our elected representatives are going to be able to do much, even if they felt so inclined, because the people have been conned into hating and mistrusting them.</p>
<p>Alix Mortimer &#8211; when are you going to throw the wool off your eyes?</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Falchikov</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/cometh-the-hour-cometh-pr-15142.html#comment-91291</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Falchikov</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 May 2009 10:47:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=15142#comment-91291</guid>
		<description>Another reason to oppose Cameron&#039;s opposition to PR is that, if it&#039;s considered  alongside reducing the number of MPs by 10-15% as I think he&#039;s suggested,
then FPTP distorts the situation even more (e.g. the earlier directly  elected Euro polls)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another reason to oppose Cameron&#8217;s opposition to PR is that, if it&#8217;s considered  alongside reducing the number of MPs by 10-15% as I think he&#8217;s suggested,<br />
then FPTP distorts the situation even more (e.g. the earlier directly  elected Euro polls)</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew Huntbach</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/cometh-the-hour-cometh-pr-15142.html#comment-91286</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew Huntbach</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 May 2009 10:01:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=15142#comment-91286</guid>
		<description>Tony Hill

&lt;i&gt;
The stuff about giving power back to the man and woman in the streets is just twaddle if you want, as Cameron does, to go further down the road of destroying local democracy by imposing elected mayors.
&lt;/i&gt;

Indeed. I have asked, many times, why it is that so many people, some of them with a modicum of intelligence, seem to believe that directly elected mayors is some sort of devolution or power-to-the-people idea. The DIRECT EQUIVALENT of this idea when applied to national politics would be to abolish voting in Parliament and instead give unlimited power to a directly elected dictator. Why isn&#039;t this obvious? Why isn&#039;t this said every time someone puts forward directly elected mayors as the solution to political malaise? Why do we find political commentators in the press solemnly intoning that this is a very good devolution etc idea? And why did Nick Clegg write a paper supporting the idea?

It is an absolute rule of mine - assuming these people aren&#039;t all closet fascists (I don&#039;t think they are) - their adoption of the directly elected mayor idea is a sign of flakiness. Do not trust anyone who supports the idea - they are just jumping on a trendy sounding bandwagon and showing by doing so their incapability of real deep thought on political issues. 

Almost everything else in Cameron&#039;s recent speech/article (as I read it in the Guardian) is similar contradictory flakiness. It is appalling stuff, as I said, it would be good from an 18 year old, but from someone who will probably be Prime Minister soon it is embarrassing.

Sorry not to have more time to pull it to pieces - left as a exercise to the reader.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tony Hill</p>
<p><i><br />
The stuff about giving power back to the man and woman in the streets is just twaddle if you want, as Cameron does, to go further down the road of destroying local democracy by imposing elected mayors.<br />
</i></p>
<p>Indeed. I have asked, many times, why it is that so many people, some of them with a modicum of intelligence, seem to believe that directly elected mayors is some sort of devolution or power-to-the-people idea. The DIRECT EQUIVALENT of this idea when applied to national politics would be to abolish voting in Parliament and instead give unlimited power to a directly elected dictator. Why isn&#8217;t this obvious? Why isn&#8217;t this said every time someone puts forward directly elected mayors as the solution to political malaise? Why do we find political commentators in the press solemnly intoning that this is a very good devolution etc idea? And why did Nick Clegg write a paper supporting the idea?</p>
<p>It is an absolute rule of mine &#8211; assuming these people aren&#8217;t all closet fascists (I don&#8217;t think they are) &#8211; their adoption of the directly elected mayor idea is a sign of flakiness. Do not trust anyone who supports the idea &#8211; they are just jumping on a trendy sounding bandwagon and showing by doing so their incapability of real deep thought on political issues. </p>
<p>Almost everything else in Cameron&#8217;s recent speech/article (as I read it in the Guardian) is similar contradictory flakiness. It is appalling stuff, as I said, it would be good from an 18 year old, but from someone who will probably be Prime Minister soon it is embarrassing.</p>
<p>Sorry not to have more time to pull it to pieces &#8211; left as a exercise to the reader.</p>
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		<title>By: Cllr Patrick Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/cometh-the-hour-cometh-pr-15142.html#comment-91275</link>
		<dc:creator>Cllr Patrick Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 May 2009 07:39:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=15142#comment-91275</guid>
		<description>David Cameron is prposing a mere `constititional tinkering&#039; when what is required is root and branch reform.

It is significant that Mr Camerson is silent on PR as he is not interested in changing a voting system that  stands out as a democratic pariah internationally.

Labour secured a mandate to govern on 22.6% of the popular vote in 2005.This  was the lowest total ever, since national democratic elections have been held in the UK, since 1832 and he says nothing about its reform!

Labour`s vote share in 2005 was only 36% and yet due to their distribution of votes around the Country still secured a majority of 66 Seats in Parliament.Why?

The reasons why we should support a change to STV are clearly announced by the Electoral Reform Society on `The Myths-The Facts and the Fiction on PR&#039; with forward by Vernon Bognanor the   greatest advocate of STV and Cameron`s former tutor.
 
Mr Cameron you do not support either Constitutional or Electoral Reform that will do anything but tinker with the problem!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David Cameron is prposing a mere `constititional tinkering&#8217; when what is required is root and branch reform.</p>
<p>It is significant that Mr Camerson is silent on PR as he is not interested in changing a voting system that  stands out as a democratic pariah internationally.</p>
<p>Labour secured a mandate to govern on 22.6% of the popular vote in 2005.This  was the lowest total ever, since national democratic elections have been held in the UK, since 1832 and he says nothing about its reform!</p>
<p>Labour`s vote share in 2005 was only 36% and yet due to their distribution of votes around the Country still secured a majority of 66 Seats in Parliament.Why?</p>
<p>The reasons why we should support a change to STV are clearly announced by the Electoral Reform Society on `The Myths-The Facts and the Fiction on PR&#8217; with forward by Vernon Bognanor the   greatest advocate of STV and Cameron`s former tutor.</p>
<p>Mr Cameron you do not support either Constitutional or Electoral Reform that will do anything but tinker with the problem!</p>
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		<title>By: Tabman</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/cometh-the-hour-cometh-pr-15142.html#comment-91270</link>
		<dc:creator>Tabman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 22:36:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=15142#comment-91270</guid>
		<description>AV is not PR.  And its likely to make Labour&#039;s defeat more pronounced.  So it baffles me why Johnson is proposing it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>AV is not PR.  And its likely to make Labour&#8217;s defeat more pronounced.  So it baffles me why Johnson is proposing it.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert C</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/cometh-the-hour-cometh-pr-15142.html#comment-91267</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 20:46:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=15142#comment-91267</guid>
		<description>I am totally with Marc Bénier. We should be shouting louder and making some headlines with some dramatic statements showing up Dave Shameron for the plagiarist he is. The home page of http://www.libdems.org.uk/ should be changed daily, if not every few hours with a press release from Clegg&#039;s office. At the moment it is really short-selling us. 

Sorry to whoever puts it together, they surely must be underworked and underpaid, but it needs to step up the VOLUME.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am totally with Marc Bénier. We should be shouting louder and making some headlines with some dramatic statements showing up Dave Shameron for the plagiarist he is. The home page of <a href="http://www.libdems.org.uk/" rel="nofollow">http://www.libdems.org.uk/</a> should be changed daily, if not every few hours with a press release from Clegg&#8217;s office. At the moment it is really short-selling us. </p>
<p>Sorry to whoever puts it together, they surely must be underworked and underpaid, but it needs to step up the VOLUME.</p>
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		<title>By: Jennie</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/cometh-the-hour-cometh-pr-15142.html#comment-91263</link>
		<dc:creator>Jennie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 19:01:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=15142#comment-91263</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the linkies ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the linkies <img src='http://www.libdemvoice.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: tony hill</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/cometh-the-hour-cometh-pr-15142.html#comment-91260</link>
		<dc:creator>tony hill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 17:57:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=15142#comment-91260</guid>
		<description>The stuff about giving power back to the man and woman in the streets is just twaddle if you want, as Cameron does, to go further down the road of destroying local democracy by imposing elected mayors.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The stuff about giving power back to the man and woman in the streets is just twaddle if you want, as Cameron does, to go further down the road of destroying local democracy by imposing elected mayors.</p>
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		<title>By: Marc Bénier</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/cometh-the-hour-cometh-pr-15142.html#comment-91258</link>
		<dc:creator>Marc Bénier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 17:49:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=15142#comment-91258</guid>
		<description>Am I the only member who is really angry at the way the Conservatives are being allowed not only to be seen to be setting the agenda for change, but also stealing some of our policies for himself?
What are our MPs&#039; up to?  This is the time when they need to be busily promoting our policies and pointing out that we have been arguing for change for the last twenty years!
Come on Clegg &amp; co!  You must do better and seize the initiative away from the tories!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Am I the only member who is really angry at the way the Conservatives are being allowed not only to be seen to be setting the agenda for change, but also stealing some of our policies for himself?<br />
What are our MPs&#8217; up to?  This is the time when they need to be busily promoting our policies and pointing out that we have been arguing for change for the last twenty years!<br />
Come on Clegg &amp; co!  You must do better and seize the initiative away from the tories!</p>
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		<title>By: Huw Dawson</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/cometh-the-hour-cometh-pr-15142.html#comment-91257</link>
		<dc:creator>Huw Dawson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 17:38:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=15142#comment-91257</guid>
		<description>Irrelevant twaddle. Blair did this at the height of the Tory sleaze-fest in 1995-6.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Irrelevant twaddle. Blair did this at the height of the Tory sleaze-fest in 1995-6.</p>
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		<title>By: David Allen</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/cometh-the-hour-cometh-pr-15142.html#comment-91251</link>
		<dc:creator>David Allen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 16:45:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=15142#comment-91251</guid>
		<description>If it is seen as opportunism, it will fail.  If Brown were to pass a law in his dying months and then hold a PR election, Cameron would win on the platform of an instant repeal of Labour&#039;s gerrymander.  And then where would we be?

Johnson&#039;s approach makes much more sense.  By proposing to hold a PR (AV+) referendum alongside a normal FPTP election, he is conspicuously playing fair-ish.

Betcha Cameron would still win the election (narrowly?), and PR would also win.  Leaving Cameron a tough decision!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If it is seen as opportunism, it will fail.  If Brown were to pass a law in his dying months and then hold a PR election, Cameron would win on the platform of an instant repeal of Labour&#8217;s gerrymander.  And then where would we be?</p>
<p>Johnson&#8217;s approach makes much more sense.  By proposing to hold a PR (AV+) referendum alongside a normal FPTP election, he is conspicuously playing fair-ish.</p>
<p>Betcha Cameron would still win the election (narrowly?), and PR would also win.  Leaving Cameron a tough decision!</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy Hargreaves</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/cometh-the-hour-cometh-pr-15142.html#comment-91249</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy Hargreaves</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 16:41:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=15142#comment-91249</guid>
		<description>The old adage about the definition of a liberal being someone too even-handed to take his own side in an argument, should not deter us from supporting vigorously when a policy we support is in danger of actually being enacted!

The complaint that we should just treat it as political opportunism might apply if Brown just pushes PR through, but if it is just taking it to a referendum, where the people get to decide, is much more difficult to criticise on those grounds. Though there certainly is some cynical brilliance in saddling an incoming Conservative government with (a) a popular mandate for something they opposed, and (b) something which is the kind of policy which pushes almost everything else in a whole Parliament to the sidelines.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The old adage about the definition of a liberal being someone too even-handed to take his own side in an argument, should not deter us from supporting vigorously when a policy we support is in danger of actually being enacted!</p>
<p>The complaint that we should just treat it as political opportunism might apply if Brown just pushes PR through, but if it is just taking it to a referendum, where the people get to decide, is much more difficult to criticise on those grounds. Though there certainly is some cynical brilliance in saddling an incoming Conservative government with (a) a popular mandate for something they opposed, and (b) something which is the kind of policy which pushes almost everything else in a whole Parliament to the sidelines.</p>
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		<title>By: James S</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/cometh-the-hour-cometh-pr-15142.html#comment-91246</link>
		<dc:creator>James S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 15:27:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=15142#comment-91246</guid>
		<description>3rd option - Loudly say it&#039;s crass political opportunism... 
and endorse it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>3rd option &#8211; Loudly say it&#8217;s crass political opportunism&#8230;<br />
and endorse it.</p>
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		<title>By: Benjamin</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/cometh-the-hour-cometh-pr-15142.html#comment-91245</link>
		<dc:creator>Benjamin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 15:22:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=15142#comment-91245</guid>
		<description>For me, the more interesting question is this.

If Brown DID decide to propose PR in the dying months of his government - or fixed-term parliaments, or complete the reform of the Upper House - what should Lib Dems do?

Do we say that it is what it is - crass opportunism to rescue some form of legacy - and oppose it?

Or do we take the rare opportunity to get something of a liberal policy platform passed into law and vote in favour?

What would be best for us in the public eye and coming election and, indeed, what would be best for the country as a whole?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For me, the more interesting question is this.</p>
<p>If Brown DID decide to propose PR in the dying months of his government &#8211; or fixed-term parliaments, or complete the reform of the Upper House &#8211; what should Lib Dems do?</p>
<p>Do we say that it is what it is &#8211; crass opportunism to rescue some form of legacy &#8211; and oppose it?</p>
<p>Or do we take the rare opportunity to get something of a liberal policy platform passed into law and vote in favour?</p>
<p>What would be best for us in the public eye and coming election and, indeed, what would be best for the country as a whole?</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew Huntbach</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/cometh-the-hour-cometh-pr-15142.html#comment-91244</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew Huntbach</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 15:15:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=15142#comment-91244</guid>
		<description>Critics of faith schools similarly never say “Ooh, don’t allow faith schools because it might turn us into the Netherlands”, do they?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Critics of faith schools similarly never say “Ooh, don’t allow faith schools because it might turn us into the Netherlands”, do they?</p>
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		<title>By: Rob Atkins</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/cometh-the-hour-cometh-pr-15142.html#comment-91243</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Atkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 15:03:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=15142#comment-91243</guid>
		<description>Forgive me for my cynicism. Brown has long been a critic of PR. Brown is about to get slaughtered in the next general election. The scale of the slaughter would be diminished by PR. Brown becomes an advocate of PR. Principled stand or crass political opportunism - you decide.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Forgive me for my cynicism. Brown has long been a critic of PR. Brown is about to get slaughtered in the next general election. The scale of the slaughter would be diminished by PR. Brown becomes an advocate of PR. Principled stand or crass political opportunism &#8211; you decide.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert C</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/cometh-the-hour-cometh-pr-15142.html#comment-91242</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 14:55:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=15142#comment-91242</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m surprised anyone&#039;s letting him get away with his dismissal of PR on the basis of his fairy story that adopting it will suddenly pitch the UK into Italian-style political chaos. It&#039;s just standard issue twaddle.

Critics of PR never say: &quot;Ooh, don&#039;t adopt PR because it might turn us into Sweden/the Netherlands/Denmark&quot;, do they?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m surprised anyone&#8217;s letting him get away with his dismissal of PR on the basis of his fairy story that adopting it will suddenly pitch the UK into Italian-style political chaos. It&#8217;s just standard issue twaddle.</p>
<p>Critics of PR never say: &#8220;Ooh, don&#8217;t adopt PR because it might turn us into Sweden/the Netherlands/Denmark&#8221;, do they?</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew Huntbach</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/cometh-the-hour-cometh-pr-15142.html#comment-91239</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew Huntbach</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 13:59:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=15142#comment-91239</guid>
		<description>I read Cameron&#039;s article in today&#039;s Guardian. I had intended to respond in more detail, write a letter to the Guardian and write something somewhere on line, but crises at work meant I had no time.

But essentially, the article had me banging my head on the table (ALMOST literally) saying (well thinking) &quot;sweet Jesus, if this is what passes for political sophistication, God help us&quot;.

I&#039;d give it A- as an essay from a bright sixth-former who&#039;s read the books, knows the theories, but isn&#039;t quite so clever as he thinks he is, and whose lack of real-world knowledge and experience is very obvious.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I read Cameron&#8217;s article in today&#8217;s Guardian. I had intended to respond in more detail, write a letter to the Guardian and write something somewhere on line, but crises at work meant I had no time.</p>
<p>But essentially, the article had me banging my head on the table (ALMOST literally) saying (well thinking) &#8220;sweet Jesus, if this is what passes for political sophistication, God help us&#8221;.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d give it A- as an essay from a bright sixth-former who&#8217;s read the books, knows the theories, but isn&#8217;t quite so clever as he thinks he is, and whose lack of real-world knowledge and experience is very obvious.</p>
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