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	<title>Comments on: Daily View 2&#215;2: 15 December 2009</title>
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		<title>By: David Allen</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/daily-view-2x2-15-december-2009-17183.html#comment-105625</link>
		<dc:creator>David Allen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jan 2010 18:18:56 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Islington should let bigots quietly opt out of conducting ceremonies they don&#039;t believe in.  In fact, they should insist on it.  Would you want your partnership ceremony ruined by a registrar going through it all with a (metaphorical) peg on her nose?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Islington should let bigots quietly opt out of conducting ceremonies they don&#8217;t believe in.  In fact, they should insist on it.  Would you want your partnership ceremony ruined by a registrar going through it all with a (metaphorical) peg on her nose?</p>
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		<title>By: Brittany</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/daily-view-2x2-15-december-2009-17183.html#comment-105622</link>
		<dc:creator>Brittany</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jan 2010 18:06:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=17183#comment-105622</guid>
		<description>The KKK is publically supporting her. Thought that was interesting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The KKK is publically supporting her. Thought that was interesting.</p>
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		<title>By: Hywel</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/daily-view-2x2-15-december-2009-17183.html#comment-103595</link>
		<dc:creator>Hywel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Dec 2009 10:34:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=17183#comment-103595</guid>
		<description>&quot;but iainm stated that the woman was a bigot. She holds the views she has because she is a Christian.&quot;

It&#039;s the views that make you a bigot, not why you hold them.

Plenty of Christians hold opposite views.  My &quot;own&quot; Church* accepted the legitimacy of homosexual relationships whilst they were still illegal and held religous celebrations of such relationships well before the civil partnership legislation.

*this is stretching a point massively - you can&#039;t be a lapsed Quaker but if you could I am one!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;but iainm stated that the woman was a bigot. She holds the views she has because she is a Christian.&#8221;</p>
<p>It&#8217;s the views that make you a bigot, not why you hold them.</p>
<p>Plenty of Christians hold opposite views.  My &#8220;own&#8221; Church* accepted the legitimacy of homosexual relationships whilst they were still illegal and held religous celebrations of such relationships well before the civil partnership legislation.</p>
<p>*this is stretching a point massively &#8211; you can&#8217;t be a lapsed Quaker but if you could I am one!</p>
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		<title>By: Hywel</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/daily-view-2x2-15-december-2009-17183.html#comment-103594</link>
		<dc:creator>Hywel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Dec 2009 10:25:24 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&quot;If we say that it is perfectly alright for a tax-funded employee to not carry out her job,&quot;

That is a principle that is well recognised in some other areas though - most notably an opt-out for medical staff regarding abortion procedures.

&quot;Is it perfectly alright for the state, in changing the terms of that job’s requirements, to force a particular political viewpoint on an individual, regardless of whether or not the overall service provided will be affected?&quot;

I have some sympathy with this view - it is possible to argue that she wouldn&#039;t have taken the job under the current legislation.  That is different to someone who took the job post the Civil Partnership legislation

According to Grammar Police the court said this was a proportionate means of achieving the required end.  That doesn&#039;t mean that it was the only route open.

Though as usual in these cases I wonder whether the person who has such profound objections to what bits people rub their genitals against have equally strong views against marrying people wearing wedding dresses of mixed fibres or serving prawn cocktails at the reception.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;If we say that it is perfectly alright for a tax-funded employee to not carry out her job,&#8221;</p>
<p>That is a principle that is well recognised in some other areas though &#8211; most notably an opt-out for medical staff regarding abortion procedures.</p>
<p>&#8220;Is it perfectly alright for the state, in changing the terms of that job’s requirements, to force a particular political viewpoint on an individual, regardless of whether or not the overall service provided will be affected?&#8221;</p>
<p>I have some sympathy with this view &#8211; it is possible to argue that she wouldn&#8217;t have taken the job under the current legislation.  That is different to someone who took the job post the Civil Partnership legislation</p>
<p>According to Grammar Police the court said this was a proportionate means of achieving the required end.  That doesn&#8217;t mean that it was the only route open.</p>
<p>Though as usual in these cases I wonder whether the person who has such profound objections to what bits people rub their genitals against have equally strong views against marrying people wearing wedding dresses of mixed fibres or serving prawn cocktails at the reception.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/daily-view-2x2-15-december-2009-17183.html#comment-103592</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Dec 2009 10:00:39 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The process here is the important thing though. She took the job before its requirements were at odds with her beliefs. Is it perfectly alright for the state, in changing the terms of that job&#039;s requirements, to force a particular political viewpoint on an individual, regardless of whether or not the overall service provided will be affected? Once again, no element of society is being alienated here, because the outcome of this case makes not a jot of difference to the couples who desire civil partnership ceremonies. You mention &#039;toleration&#039; - does that extend to religious adherents?

As for &#039;sanitising homophobia&#039; - I will attempt to avoid semantic wranglings over what homophobia is or is not, but iainm stated that the woman was a bigot. She holds the views she has because she is a Christian. As far as I am concerned that implies that Christians are bigots.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The process here is the important thing though. She took the job before its requirements were at odds with her beliefs. Is it perfectly alright for the state, in changing the terms of that job&#8217;s requirements, to force a particular political viewpoint on an individual, regardless of whether or not the overall service provided will be affected? Once again, no element of society is being alienated here, because the outcome of this case makes not a jot of difference to the couples who desire civil partnership ceremonies. You mention &#8216;toleration&#8217; &#8211; does that extend to religious adherents?</p>
<p>As for &#8216;sanitising homophobia&#8217; &#8211; I will attempt to avoid semantic wranglings over what homophobia is or is not, but iainm stated that the woman was a bigot. She holds the views she has because she is a Christian. As far as I am concerned that implies that Christians are bigots.</p>
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		<title>By: Harry</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/daily-view-2x2-15-december-2009-17183.html#comment-103589</link>
		<dc:creator>Harry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Dec 2009 08:42:07 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Futhermore (sorry), I just realised your sanitising of homophobia thorugh incredulity that it can compare with racism. They are of the same material. It is not in the slightest &quot;bigoted&quot; to point this out - nor was iain even comparing Christianity to racism - rather, as I have said, homophobia.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Futhermore (sorry), I just realised your sanitising of homophobia thorugh incredulity that it can compare with racism. They are of the same material. It is not in the slightest &#8220;bigoted&#8221; to point this out &#8211; nor was iain even comparing Christianity to racism &#8211; rather, as I have said, homophobia.</p>
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		<title>By: Harry</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/daily-view-2x2-15-december-2009-17183.html#comment-103588</link>
		<dc:creator>Harry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Dec 2009 08:38:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=17183#comment-103588</guid>
		<description>Tom - 

The essence of building up a liberal society must start with the employees of the &#039;state&#039;  (here, local government). If we say that it is perfectly alright for a tax-funded employee to not carry out her job, and in the process alienate a segment of society, there is no basis from which we can urge toleration and, through such, a harmonious and truly liberal society.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom &#8211; </p>
<p>The essence of building up a liberal society must start with the employees of the &#8216;state&#8217;  (here, local government). If we say that it is perfectly alright for a tax-funded employee to not carry out her job, and in the process alienate a segment of society, there is no basis from which we can urge toleration and, through such, a harmonious and truly liberal society.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/daily-view-2x2-15-december-2009-17183.html#comment-103585</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Dec 2009 07:52:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=17183#comment-103585</guid>
		<description>You may think it is bigoted for someone to believe that homosexuality is wrong. However, your decision to equate Christianity and racism seems fairly bigoted to me.

Again: she doesn&#039;t argue for the prevention of civil partnerships per se, nor does her refusal to perform them prevent couples from taking part in them if they so wish. How is it liberal to prevent people from living out their beliefs, as long as they don&#039;t harm others? Who&#039;s being harmed here (apart from her)?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You may think it is bigoted for someone to believe that homosexuality is wrong. However, your decision to equate Christianity and racism seems fairly bigoted to me.</p>
<p>Again: she doesn&#8217;t argue for the prevention of civil partnerships per se, nor does her refusal to perform them prevent couples from taking part in them if they so wish. How is it liberal to prevent people from living out their beliefs, as long as they don&#8217;t harm others? Who&#8217;s being harmed here (apart from her)?</p>
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		<title>By: iainm</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/daily-view-2x2-15-december-2009-17183.html#comment-103578</link>
		<dc:creator>iainm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Dec 2009 23:33:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=17183#comment-103578</guid>
		<description>@Tom

This is absolutely a cause for celebration. The woman is a bigot, plain and simple. The fact that she&#039;s sincere bigot doesn&#039;t excuse her. She&#039;s entitled to her beliefs just like anyone else, but as a public servant she has no more right to be excused from conducting same-sex ceremonies than a registrar with racist beliefs should be excused from conducting inter-racial ones.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Tom</p>
<p>This is absolutely a cause for celebration. The woman is a bigot, plain and simple. The fact that she&#8217;s sincere bigot doesn&#8217;t excuse her. She&#8217;s entitled to her beliefs just like anyone else, but as a public servant she has no more right to be excused from conducting same-sex ceremonies than a registrar with racist beliefs should be excused from conducting inter-racial ones.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/daily-view-2x2-15-december-2009-17183.html#comment-103569</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Dec 2009 18:05:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=17183#comment-103569</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t particularly see what there is to celebrate about this verdict. How is it a good thing that there is no room for those who take a different view to participate in the public services? Her moral stance did not mean that people were stopped from participating in civil partnership ceremonies. I find it alarming that the mood here seems to be celebratory rather than critical of the clearly illiberal nature of the legislation which has led to this ruling.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t particularly see what there is to celebrate about this verdict. How is it a good thing that there is no room for those who take a different view to participate in the public services? Her moral stance did not mean that people were stopped from participating in civil partnership ceremonies. I find it alarming that the mood here seems to be celebratory rather than critical of the clearly illiberal nature of the legislation which has led to this ruling.</p>
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		<title>By: Niklas Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/daily-view-2x2-15-december-2009-17183.html#comment-103567</link>
		<dc:creator>Niklas Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Dec 2009 17:48:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=17183#comment-103567</guid>
		<description>@Grammar Police: I.e., game, set and match to Islington. Excellent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Grammar Police: I.e., game, set and match to Islington. Excellent.</p>
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		<title>By: Grammar Police</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/daily-view-2x2-15-december-2009-17183.html#comment-103564</link>
		<dc:creator>Grammar Police</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Dec 2009 17:02:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=17183#comment-103564</guid>
		<description>The court considered, among other issues, whether the London Borough of Islington were entitled to compel a registrar of Births, Marriages and Deaths to register civil partnerships even though the registrar objected to officiating at such registrations on the grounds of her religious beliefs. The court upheld the EAT’s decision that there had been no direct or indirect discrimination  contrary to the Employment Equality (Religion or Belief) Regs 2003, whether by being designated a civil partnership registrar, by being required to officiate at civil partnerships, or by any other aspect of her treatment by Islington. In particular, the respondent’s policy to designate all their registrars civil partnership registrars and to require all registrars to perform civil partnerships was a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim within Employment Equality (Religion or Belief) Regs 2003, reg 3(1) . The court also held that in the light of the Equality Act (Sexual Orientation) Regs 2007, specifically reg 3(1), the respondents had no alternative but to insist on the registrar performing her duties.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The court considered, among other issues, whether the London Borough of Islington were entitled to compel a registrar of Births, Marriages and Deaths to register civil partnerships even though the registrar objected to officiating at such registrations on the grounds of her religious beliefs. The court upheld the EAT’s decision that there had been no direct or indirect discrimination  contrary to the Employment Equality (Religion or Belief) Regs 2003, whether by being designated a civil partnership registrar, by being required to officiate at civil partnerships, or by any other aspect of her treatment by Islington. In particular, the respondent’s policy to designate all their registrars civil partnership registrars and to require all registrars to perform civil partnerships was a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim within Employment Equality (Religion or Belief) Regs 2003, reg 3(1) . The court also held that in the light of the Equality Act (Sexual Orientation) Regs 2007, specifically reg 3(1), the respondents had no alternative but to insist on the registrar performing her duties.</p>
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		<title>By: Niklas Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/daily-view-2x2-15-december-2009-17183.html#comment-103560</link>
		<dc:creator>Niklas Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Dec 2009 14:56:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=17183#comment-103560</guid>
		<description>Taking you up on your invitation, here is a post from Mike Smithson on whether tactical voting will help the Lib Dems against the Tories: http://politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2009/12/15/will-tactical-voting-keep-most-of-these-orange/

According to UKPR there are 23 Lib Dem-held seats that will need to fall to the Conservatives (assuming the same swing nationally) if Cameron is to have a majority of one. Mike Smithson questions whether many of these will fall given anti-Tory voting by Labour supporters.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Taking you up on your invitation, here is a post from Mike Smithson on whether tactical voting will help the Lib Dems against the Tories: <a href="http://politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2009/12/15/will-tactical-voting-keep-most-of-these-orange/" rel="nofollow">http://politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2009/12/15/will-tactical-voting-keep-most-of-these-orange/</a></p>
<p>According to UKPR there are 23 Lib Dem-held seats that will need to fall to the Conservatives (assuming the same swing nationally) if Cameron is to have a majority of one. Mike Smithson questions whether many of these will fall given anti-Tory voting by Labour supporters.</p>
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