Comments on: Democracy Dragons’ Den: What’s your one big idea to improve democracy in this country? http://www.libdemvoice.org/democracy-dragons-den-whats-your-one-big-idea-to-improve-democracy-in-this-country-3508.html Our place to talk - an independent website for supporters of the Liberal Democrat party in the UK. Sun, 12 Feb 2012 01:36:11 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Amy Rodger http://www.libdemvoice.org/democracy-dragons-den-whats-your-one-big-idea-to-improve-democracy-in-this-country-3508.html#comment-62114 Amy Rodger Mon, 15 Sep 2008 09:04:10 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=3508#comment-62114 Hey, can Oranjepan and Laurence give me a call? 07960 869018. Thanks, Amy Hey, can Oranjepan and Laurence give me a call? 07960 869018.

Thanks,
Amy

]]> By: David Rose http://www.libdemvoice.org/democracy-dragons-den-whats-your-one-big-idea-to-improve-democracy-in-this-country-3508.html#comment-61932 David Rose Sat, 13 Sep 2008 18:10:49 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=3508#comment-61932 Summary: Introduce STV to TV voting Get Big Brother or The X Factor on side. Each week an STV telephone vote is taken to fill the remaining available places. Overnight audiences understand and appreciate its fairness. Summary: Introduce STV to TV voting

Get Big Brother or The X Factor on side. Each week an STV telephone vote is taken to fill the remaining available places. Overnight audiences understand and appreciate its fairness.

]]> By: Amy Rodger http://www.libdemvoice.org/democracy-dragons-den-whats-your-one-big-idea-to-improve-democracy-in-this-country-3508.html#comment-61835 Amy Rodger Fri, 12 Sep 2008 18:47:53 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=3508#comment-61835 Goodness me - the Electoral Reform Society ought to be gratified that it still all comes down to PR! Please, if you want your idea on the ballot, could you email democracy@electoral-reform.org.uk or text me on 07960 869018 to confirm that you're a Lib Dem member and that you'll be in Bournemouth on Monday. Also please give me some way of contacting you to tell me whether you win or not, or come to the Electoral Reform Society stand on Saturday or Sunday. Conference delegates will be able to vote for which ideas they want to see pitched up to 10am on Monday, when we will conduct a count and notify the winners, so they have a few hours to prepare their pitches. The Den's on Monday lunchtime, and should be pretty quickfire. I think we've got some lunch and booze there to lubricate the debate. Hope to see you there. Amy Goodness me – the Electoral Reform Society ought to be gratified that it still all comes down to PR!

Please, if you want your idea on the ballot, could you email or text me on 07960 869018 to confirm that you’re a Lib Dem member and that you’ll be in Bournemouth on Monday. Also please give me some way of contacting you to tell me whether you win or not, or come to the Electoral Reform Society stand on Saturday or Sunday.

Conference delegates will be able to vote for which ideas they want to see pitched up to 10am on Monday, when we will conduct a count and notify the winners, so they have a few hours to prepare their pitches.

The Den’s on Monday lunchtime, and should be pretty quickfire. I think we’ve got some lunch and booze there to lubricate the debate. Hope to see you there.

Amy

]]> By: Laurence Boyce http://www.libdemvoice.org/democracy-dragons-den-whats-your-one-big-idea-to-improve-democracy-in-this-country-3508.html#comment-61787 Laurence Boyce Fri, 12 Sep 2008 11:53:11 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=3508#comment-61787 <i>"And as for complexity, it really makes no difference if it’s AV or STV - it’s still 1,2,3."</i> No it's not. In a large multi member set up, it's 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12, . . . “And as for complexity, it really makes no difference if it’s AV or STV – it’s still 1,2,3.”

No it’s not. In a large multi member set up, it’s 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12, . . .

]]> By: KL http://www.libdemvoice.org/democracy-dragons-den-whats-your-one-big-idea-to-improve-democracy-in-this-country-3508.html#comment-61784 KL Fri, 12 Sep 2008 11:48:09 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=3508#comment-61784 Laurence, the point about AV is that it's not a fairer system. With AV you can just as easily get the "least worst" option as the most favoured - hence opposition to a multi-option referendum in Scotland. And as for complexity, it really makes no difference if it's AV or STV - it's still 1,2,3. STV also has the added advantage that it is in use in UK elections already - in NI for all but General Elections, and in Scotland for Council elections. OK, so the counting up here didn't go too well, but that was more to do with the machines than the electorate! One thing which STV does do, though, is potentially reduce the numbers of candidates. For example, where a seat might have four councillors, you might only put up two candidates if that's all you thought you'd get elected. Be over-optimistic, and you can miss out on any - be under-optimistic, and you could have had more elected. Laurence, the point about AV is that it’s not a fairer system. With AV you can just as easily get the “least worst” option as the most favoured – hence opposition to a multi-option referendum in Scotland. And as for complexity, it really makes no difference if it’s AV or STV – it’s still 1,2,3.

STV also has the added advantage that it is in use in UK elections already – in NI for all but General Elections, and in Scotland for Council elections. OK, so the counting up here didn’t go too well, but that was more to do with the machines than the electorate! One thing which STV does do, though, is potentially reduce the numbers of candidates. For example, where a seat might have four councillors, you might only put up two candidates if that’s all you thought you’d get elected. Be over-optimistic, and you can miss out on any – be under-optimistic, and you could have had more elected.

]]> By: Laurence Boyce http://www.libdemvoice.org/democracy-dragons-den-whats-your-one-big-idea-to-improve-democracy-in-this-country-3508.html#comment-60074 Laurence Boyce Sat, 06 Sep 2008 11:02:38 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=3508#comment-60074 I disagree. I think we can say that AV is objectively fairer than FPTP because it is a straight <i>extension</i> of FPTP. That’s why I think Lib Dems should jump at the chance of AV with Labour support if indeed that is on the cards. We should support a fairer system even if it is not our favourite system. I disagree. I think we can say that AV is objectively fairer than FPTP because it is a straight extension of FPTP. That’s why I think Lib Dems should jump at the chance of AV with Labour support if indeed that is on the cards. We should support a fairer system even if it is not our favourite system.

]]> By: Oranjepan http://www.libdemvoice.org/democracy-dragons-den-whats-your-one-big-idea-to-improve-democracy-in-this-country-3508.html#comment-60073 Oranjepan Sat, 06 Sep 2008 10:51:57 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=3508#comment-60073 Laurence, the relative fairness of different voting systems depends in the greatest part on the state of party political electioneering infrastructure - none is inherently fairer or more accurate because they all tend to reflect different things. Each form of ballot has strengths and weaknesses, so our choice of which is best is a question of which method fits in closest alignment with the overall system. Your preference indicates your bias in favour of what it actually is you want to measure, not what is objectively fairer. As far as I'm concerned the way to solve the problems with elections is to hold more of them. This also opens up the possibility of introducing different voting systems to differentiate each different level of democratic representation and creates a point of identification which can be used to educate members of the public about the different processes involved. Laurence, the relative fairness of different voting systems depends in the greatest part on the state of party political electioneering infrastructure – none is inherently fairer or more accurate because they all tend to reflect different things.

Each form of ballot has strengths and weaknesses, so our choice of which is best is a question of which method fits in closest alignment with the overall system.

Your preference indicates your bias in favour of what it actually is you want to measure, not what is objectively fairer.

As far as I’m concerned the way to solve the problems with elections is to hold more of them.

This also opens up the possibility of introducing different voting systems to differentiate each different level of democratic representation and creates a point of identification which can be used to educate members of the public about the different processes involved.

]]> By: Laurence Boyce http://www.libdemvoice.org/democracy-dragons-den-whats-your-one-big-idea-to-improve-democracy-in-this-country-3508.html#comment-60071 Laurence Boyce Sat, 06 Sep 2008 10:28:00 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=3508#comment-60071 So what? If AV is a fairer system than FPTP (which it manifestly is), then whatever outcome it produces should be accepted. So what? If AV is a fairer system than FPTP (which it manifestly is), then whatever outcome it produces should be accepted.

]]> By: Geoffrey Payne http://www.libdemvoice.org/democracy-dragons-den-whats-your-one-big-idea-to-improve-democracy-in-this-country-3508.html#comment-60069 Geoffrey Payne Sat, 06 Sep 2008 09:49:20 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=3508#comment-60069 Laurence, I do not know if your reply is anything to do with what I wrote, but if it is you clearly do not understand the point I was making. I did not say anything about the Lib Dem vote. What I said was that is one party has a big lead over the second place party, then AV will exaggerate that lead even more than the current First Past the Post. Laurence, I do not know if your reply is anything to do with what I wrote, but if it is you clearly do not understand the point I was making. I did not say anything about the Lib Dem vote. What I said was that is one party has a big lead over the second place party, then AV will exaggerate that lead even more than the current First Past the Post.

]]> By: Laurence Boyce http://www.libdemvoice.org/democracy-dragons-den-whats-your-one-big-idea-to-improve-democracy-in-this-country-3508.html#comment-60068 Laurence Boyce Sat, 06 Sep 2008 09:30:13 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=3508#comment-60068 Ah, I can see the problem. Basically we need a system that only ever boosts the <i>Lib Dem</i> outcome in every conceivable scenario. Ah, I can see the problem. Basically we need a system that only ever boosts the Lib Dem outcome in every conceivable scenario.

]]> By: Geoffrey Payne http://www.libdemvoice.org/democracy-dragons-den-whats-your-one-big-idea-to-improve-democracy-in-this-country-3508.html#comment-60067 Geoffrey Payne Sat, 06 Sep 2008 09:05:33 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=3508#comment-60067 It was said during the 1997 general election which Labour won with a landslide that if we had at the time AV, Lib Dem supporters would have given their second preference votes between Labour and Tory to the same proportions as the rest of the population gave as their first preference. So if say Labour got 40% and the Tories 30%, Labour would have won many of the seats where second preferences made a difference, thus exaggerating further their majority. The same is likely to apply in reverse if the Tories have such a lead. It was said during the 1997 general election which Labour won with a landslide that if we had at the time AV, Lib Dem supporters would have given their second preference votes between Labour and Tory to the same proportions as the rest of the population gave as their first preference. So if say Labour got 40% and the Tories 30%, Labour would have won many of the seats where second preferences made a difference, thus exaggerating further their majority.
The same is likely to apply in reverse if the Tories have such a lead.

]]> By: Laurence Boyce http://www.libdemvoice.org/democracy-dragons-den-whats-your-one-big-idea-to-improve-democracy-in-this-country-3508.html#comment-60066 Laurence Boyce Sat, 06 Sep 2008 08:37:04 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=3508#comment-60066 I forgot to mention <a href="http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-ditch-pr-in-favour-of-weighted-votes-2416.html" rel="nofollow">weighted votes</a>. I forgot to mention weighted votes.

]]> By: Andrew Duffield http://www.libdemvoice.org/democracy-dragons-den-whats-your-one-big-idea-to-improve-democracy-in-this-country-3508.html#comment-60064 Andrew Duffield Sat, 06 Sep 2008 07:43:50 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=3508#comment-60064 Sunday voting. Sunday voting.

]]> By: James Schneider http://www.libdemvoice.org/democracy-dragons-den-whats-your-one-big-idea-to-improve-democracy-in-this-country-3508.html#comment-60060 James Schneider Fri, 05 Sep 2008 23:25:25 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=3508#comment-60060 I wrote something (http://schneiderhome.blogspot.com/2008/09/proposal-on-direct-democracy.html) which may be of interest. I wrote something (http://schneiderhome.blogspot.com/2008/09/proposal-on-direct-democracy.html) which may be of interest.

]]> By: Laurence Boyce http://www.libdemvoice.org/democracy-dragons-den-whats-your-one-big-idea-to-improve-democracy-in-this-country-3508.html#comment-60059 Laurence Boyce Fri, 05 Sep 2008 22:29:58 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=3508#comment-60059 Eh? I don't understand that. Surely AV can only ever be an improvement on FPTP. Eh? I don’t understand that. Surely AV can only ever be an improvement on FPTP.

]]> By: Clegg's Candid Friend http://www.libdemvoice.org/democracy-dragons-den-whats-your-one-big-idea-to-improve-democracy-in-this-country-3508.html#comment-60058 Clegg's Candid Friend Fri, 05 Sep 2008 21:55:09 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=3508#comment-60058 Compulsory voting? Compulsory voting?

]]> By: Geoffrey Payne http://www.libdemvoice.org/democracy-dragons-den-whats-your-one-big-idea-to-improve-democracy-in-this-country-3508.html#comment-60054 Geoffrey Payne Fri, 05 Sep 2008 20:22:42 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=3508#comment-60054 With the opinion polls as they currently are, AV would be even more disproportional than first past the post. In my opinion, that is not acceptable. With the opinion polls as they currently are, AV would be even more disproportional than first past the post.
In my opinion, that is not acceptable.

]]> By: Oranjepan http://www.libdemvoice.org/democracy-dragons-den-whats-your-one-big-idea-to-improve-democracy-in-this-country-3508.html#comment-60050 Oranjepan Fri, 05 Sep 2008 17:31:59 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=3508#comment-60050 A V-day bank holiday. That's V-for-Votes. A V-day bank holiday. That’s V-for-Votes.

]]> By: Laurence Boyce http://www.libdemvoice.org/democracy-dragons-den-whats-your-one-big-idea-to-improve-democracy-in-this-country-3508.html#comment-60030 Laurence Boyce Fri, 05 Sep 2008 16:26:47 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=3508#comment-60030 I disagree. We should settle for AV which as you say is supported by people like Peter Hain. We can't make STV a deal breaker. It's too complex and too much of a constitutional upheaval. That will have to wait until we are in outright power. Ho ho . . . I disagree. We should settle for AV which as you say is supported by people like Peter Hain. We can’t make STV a deal breaker. It’s too complex and too much of a constitutional upheaval. That will have to wait until we are in outright power. Ho ho . . .

]]> By: Geoffrey Payne http://www.libdemvoice.org/democracy-dragons-den-whats-your-one-big-idea-to-improve-democracy-in-this-country-3508.html#comment-60029 Geoffrey Payne Fri, 05 Sep 2008 16:09:07 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=3508#comment-60029 Proportional Representation (which does not include the Alternative Vote favoured by some in Labour) should be the deal breaker if the Liberal Democrats hold the balance of power after the next general election. Proportional Representation (which does not include the Alternative Vote favoured by some in Labour) should be the deal breaker if the Liberal Democrats hold the balance of power after the next general election.

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