Comments on: Did Labour’s Camden election campaign break the law? http://www.libdemvoice.org/did-labours-camden-election-campaign-break-the-law-329.html Our place to talk - an independent website for supporters of the Liberal Democrat party in the UK. Sun, 12 Feb 2012 01:36:11 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: David Boothroyd http://www.libdemvoice.org/did-labours-camden-election-campaign-break-the-law-329.html#comment-2002 David Boothroyd Sun, 10 Dec 2006 18:12:58 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/did-labours-camden-election-campaign-break-the-law-329.html#comment-2002 What's expolict? How about a scan of the poll card, Ed? What’s expolict? How about a scan of the poll card, Ed?

]]> By: ed fordham http://www.libdemvoice.org/did-labours-camden-election-campaign-break-the-law-329.html#comment-1985 ed fordham Sun, 10 Dec 2006 02:47:40 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/did-labours-camden-election-campaign-break-the-law-329.html#comment-1985 Thanks Tony - the poll card' as they describe it has the words: Below are listed your poll number and where you vote It's pretty expolict at suggesting it is the official card... Thanks Tony – the poll card’ as they describe it has the words:
Below are listed your poll number and where you vote

It’s pretty expolict at suggesting it is the official card…

]]> By: tonygreaves http://www.libdemvoice.org/did-labours-camden-election-campaign-break-the-law-329.html#comment-1959 tonygreaves Sat, 09 Dec 2006 15:41:35 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/did-labours-camden-election-campaign-break-the-law-329.html#comment-1959 Some points here from a "young " Liberal Democrat: (1) Under the 1949 RPA Act it was illegal to issue a poll card at parliamentary elections, where the RO was under a duty to do so. At local elections the RO did not do so and parties often did. (I have many examples in my files published by me). (2) This was changed at some point - I think before 1983 and possibly in the 1972 Local Government Act but I am not sure. ROs at local elections (except - in England - parish council elections) were given a duty to issue poll cards and it became illegal for candidates to do so. (I think you can still issue them for parish council elections?) (3) The real point of a poll card is that they contain the NAME and ELECTORAL NUMBER of each elector. We used to spend hours writing them out. In my view (IANAL) the presence or absence of such information is crucial to whether the law has been broken. Tony Greaves Some points here from a “young ” Liberal Democrat:

(1) Under the 1949 RPA Act it was illegal to issue a poll card at parliamentary elections, where the RO was under a duty to do so. At local elections the RO did not do so and parties often did. (I have many examples in my files published by me).

(2) This was changed at some point – I think before 1983 and possibly in the 1972 Local Government Act but I am not sure. ROs at local elections (except – in England – parish council elections) were given a duty to issue poll cards and it became illegal for candidates to do so.
(I think you can still issue them for parish council elections?)

(3) The real point of a poll card is that they contain the NAME and ELECTORAL NUMBER of each elector. We used to spend hours writing them out. In my view (IANAL) the presence or absence of such information is crucial to whether the law has been broken.

Tony Greaves

]]> By: Duncan Borrowman http://www.libdemvoice.org/did-labours-camden-election-campaign-break-the-law-329.html#comment-1935 Duncan Borrowman Sat, 09 Dec 2006 02:03:04 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/did-labours-camden-election-campaign-break-the-law-329.html#comment-1935 Sorry David, all parties have skated on ice on this. But Labour have clearly finally picked a thin bit and cracked it. Sorry David, all parties have skated on ice on this. But Labour have clearly finally picked a thin bit and cracked it.

]]> By: Dan http://www.libdemvoice.org/did-labours-camden-election-campaign-break-the-law-329.html#comment-1931 Dan Sat, 09 Dec 2006 00:47:53 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/did-labours-camden-election-campaign-break-the-law-329.html#comment-1931 I think the important point to remember here is that electoral law is only ever changed by losers. I think the important point to remember here is that electoral law is only ever changed by losers.

]]> By: hywelmorgan http://www.libdemvoice.org/did-labours-camden-election-campaign-break-the-law-329.html#comment-1924 hywelmorgan Sat, 09 Dec 2006 00:09:03 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/did-labours-camden-election-campaign-break-the-law-329.html#comment-1924 AFAIK (and I ain't going to spend the time checking!) the wording of the section in the 1949 Act was the same as the 83 act. Of course just because someone did something in 1973 doesn't mean it was legal - my understanding of the Richmond case is that it ruled several practices that were common practice across the parties as not being legal. If someone could post a scan of the relevant card we might be a bit better informed but frankly I doubt the CPS are going to be that excited about it. AFAIK (and I ain’t going to spend the time checking!) the wording of the section in the 1949 Act was the same as the 83 act.

Of course just because someone did something in 1973 doesn’t mean it was legal – my understanding of the Richmond case is that it ruled several practices that were common practice across the parties as not being legal.

If someone could post a scan of the relevant card we might be a bit better informed but frankly I doubt the CPS are going to be that excited about it.

]]> By: Phil W http://www.libdemvoice.org/did-labours-camden-election-campaign-break-the-law-329.html#comment-1921 Phil W Sat, 09 Dec 2006 00:03:55 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/did-labours-camden-election-campaign-break-the-law-329.html#comment-1921 > Before 1983 it was section 81 of the Representation of the People Act 1949. That was the law when this poll card was issued Thanks David. Also very quaint and an excellent prop for use in a future episode of Life on Mars. However the current debate relates to whether it is legal in 2006 to issue lookalike polling cards. Both the examples you have so far produced are so antiquated they don't even reach the last quarter of the previous century, and my original question was specifically whether these museum pieces have any relevance to the legality of this kind of tactic in the current day and age. A question that I note you have deliberately chosen to sidestep with the unmistakeable gait of a troll. > Before 1983 it was section 81 of the Representation of the People Act 1949. That was the law when this poll card was issued

Thanks David. Also very quaint and an excellent prop for use in a future episode of Life on Mars. However the current debate relates to whether it is legal in 2006 to issue lookalike polling cards. Both the examples you have so far produced are so antiquated they don’t even reach the last quarter of the previous century, and my original question was specifically whether these museum pieces have any relevance to the legality of this kind of tactic in the current day and age. A question that I note you have deliberately chosen to sidestep with the unmistakeable gait of a troll.

]]> By: David Boothroyd http://www.libdemvoice.org/did-labours-camden-election-campaign-break-the-law-329.html#comment-1906 David Boothroyd Fri, 08 Dec 2006 20:24:43 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/did-labours-camden-election-campaign-break-the-law-329.html#comment-1906 Before 1983 it was section 81 of the Representation of the People Act 1949. That was the law when this poll card was issued: http://www.election.demon.co.uk/wcc/labourpollcard.png Before 1983 it was section 81 of the Representation of the People Act 1949. That was the law when this poll card was issued:

http://www.election.demon.co.uk/wcc/labourpollcard.png

]]> By: Phil W http://www.libdemvoice.org/did-labours-camden-election-campaign-break-the-law-329.html#comment-1905 Phil W Fri, 08 Dec 2006 19:58:20 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/did-labours-camden-election-campaign-break-the-law-329.html#comment-1905 > it was standard practice until not very long ago ... Perhaps until enactment of RPA 1983 or whenever it was? I note that the quaint historical example you provide wouldn't look out of place in an episode of Heartbeat, even allowing for the frequently archaic typography of Tory electoral literature. BTW congrats to the Camden campaign team. As Andrea notes, the 10% majority is bang on target and provides a platform for squeezing both greens and cons in any future parliamentary campaign. > it was standard practice until not very long ago …
Perhaps until enactment of RPA 1983 or whenever it was? I note that the quaint historical example you provide wouldn’t look out of place in an episode of Heartbeat, even allowing for the frequently archaic typography of Tory electoral literature.

BTW congrats to the Camden campaign team. As Andrea notes, the 10% majority is bang on target and provides a platform for squeezing both greens and cons in any future parliamentary campaign.

]]> By: hywelmorgan http://www.libdemvoice.org/did-labours-camden-election-campaign-break-the-law-329.html#comment-1897 hywelmorgan Fri, 08 Dec 2006 14:43:54 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/did-labours-camden-election-campaign-break-the-law-329.html#comment-1897 I'm with Mark on this a bit - the card linked to be David is missing a lot of the bits needed to be a poll card - it doesn't say it is a polling card, no address or poll number, clearly only refers to the Conservative candidates. Hard to see it could be regarded as a poll card My advise on doing anything that could be considered a poll card was to (a) put the party logo on and (b) somewhere on it - in a reasonable font size - put the words "this is not an official poll card. You could also make a case that a "new" style imprint with the party name makes it clear it is from a political party not the returning officer. The bit I think is borderline is the printing on the outside of the envelope. That said taking the mailing as a whole it is clearly a political leaflet. Whether that would make it inside/outside the law I'm not sure but I wouldn't have advised someone to do that in my ALDC days. Our interpretation of what we put on leaflets as experienced political hacks and how the courts look at it is not always the same. R v Rowe ex p Mainwaring makes interesting reading on this front as regards the point size of imprints for example :-) I’m with Mark on this a bit – the card linked to be David is missing a lot of the bits needed to be a poll card – it doesn’t say it is a polling card, no address or poll number, clearly only refers to the Conservative candidates. Hard to see it could be regarded as a poll card

My advise on doing anything that could be considered a poll card was to (a) put the party logo on and (b) somewhere on it – in a reasonable font size – put the words “this is not an official poll card. You could also make a case that a “new” style imprint with the party name makes it clear it is from a political party not the returning officer.

The bit I think is borderline is the printing on the outside of the envelope. That said taking the mailing as a whole it is clearly a political leaflet. Whether that would make it inside/outside the law I’m not sure but I wouldn’t have advised someone to do that in my ALDC days.

Our interpretation of what we put on leaflets as experienced political hacks and how the courts look at it is not always the same. R v Rowe ex p Mainwaring makes interesting reading on this front as regards the point size of imprints for example :-)

]]> By: Elizabeths http://www.libdemvoice.org/did-labours-camden-election-campaign-break-the-law-329.html#comment-1895 Elizabeths Fri, 08 Dec 2006 14:37:23 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/did-labours-camden-election-campaign-break-the-law-329.html#comment-1895 No. The it was a self-seal window envelope with just the printing of URGENT: POLL CARD INSIDE on it. No. The it was a self-seal window envelope with just the printing of URGENT: POLL CARD INSIDE on it.

]]> By: Liberal Neil http://www.libdemvoice.org/did-labours-camden-election-campaign-break-the-law-329.html#comment-1893 Liberal Neil Fri, 08 Dec 2006 14:14:04 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/did-labours-camden-election-campaign-break-the-law-329.html#comment-1893 Does the envelope have an imprint? Does the envelope have an imprint?

]]> By: David Boothroyd http://www.libdemvoice.org/did-labours-camden-election-campaign-break-the-law-329.html#comment-1892 David Boothroyd Fri, 08 Dec 2006 13:09:30 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/did-labours-camden-election-campaign-break-the-law-329.html#comment-1892 I suspect what was meant was 'illegal practice'. Election offences are divided into 'illegal practices' and 'corrupt practices' (the latter being worse). I suspect what was meant was ‘illegal practice’. Election offences are divided into ‘illegal practices’ and ‘corrupt practices’ (the latter being worse).

]]> By: Martin Hoscik http://www.libdemvoice.org/did-labours-camden-election-campaign-break-the-law-329.html#comment-1891 Martin Hoscik Fri, 08 Dec 2006 12:51:01 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/did-labours-camden-election-campaign-break-the-law-329.html#comment-1891 Can I just point ore the phrase "illegal offence" that you cant have legal offences so the word illegal is a bit redundant! Can I just point ore the phrase “illegal offence” that you cant have legal offences so the word illegal is a bit redundant!

]]> By: nigelashton http://www.libdemvoice.org/did-labours-camden-election-campaign-break-the-law-329.html#comment-1885 nigelashton Fri, 08 Dec 2006 10:52:53 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/did-labours-camden-election-campaign-break-the-law-329.html#comment-1885 Looking at the image at the top of this page the envelope says "URGENT:POLL CARD INSIDE" and you can just make out some of the wording on the letter "The polling card sent with this letter shows you where to go to vote". I would need to see an image of an actual card to form a view on whether it 'closely resembled an official poll card'. Even if it did it would be difficult to prove that it was "calculated to deceive". Looking at the image at the top of this page the envelope says “URGENT:POLL CARD INSIDE” and you can just make out some of the wording on the letter “The polling card sent with this letter shows you where to go to vote”. I would need to see an image of an actual card to form a view on whether it ‘closely resembled an official poll card’. Even if it did it would be difficult to prove that it was “calculated to deceive”.

]]> By: David Boothroyd http://www.libdemvoice.org/did-labours-camden-election-campaign-break-the-law-329.html#comment-1882 David Boothroyd Fri, 08 Dec 2006 10:08:13 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/did-labours-camden-election-campaign-break-the-law-329.html#comment-1882 Mark, can you scan in the actual poll card for us to see? Mark, can you scan in the actual poll card for us to see?

]]> By: Mark Pack http://www.libdemvoice.org/did-labours-camden-election-campaign-break-the-law-329.html#comment-1881 Mark Pack Fri, 08 Dec 2006 10:07:04 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/did-labours-camden-election-campaign-break-the-law-329.html#comment-1881 The leaflet you have linked to doesn't say that it is a poll card though - was it distributed in an envelope saying the person's poll card was enclosed and with a covering letter calling it their poll card? The leaflet you have linked to doesn’t say that it is a poll card though – was it distributed in an envelope saying the person’s poll card was enclosed and with a covering letter calling it their poll card?

]]> By: nigelashton http://www.libdemvoice.org/did-labours-camden-election-campaign-break-the-law-329.html#comment-1880 nigelashton Fri, 08 Dec 2006 10:03:35 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/did-labours-camden-election-campaign-break-the-law-329.html#comment-1880 I think David Boothroyd is probably right. The 1995 Representation of the People Act uses the phrase "so closely resembling an official poll card as to be calculated to deceive" It is S.94 of the 1995 RPA. http://www.dca.gov.uk/legist/keeling/part2.pdf 94 Imitation poll cards No person shall for the purpose of promoting or procuring the election of any candidate at a parliamentary election [or a local government election to which this section applies] issue any poll card or document so closely resembling an official poll card as to be calculated to deceive, and subsections (2) and (3) of section 92 above apply as if an offence under this section were an offence under that section. I think David Boothroyd is probably right. The 1995 Representation of the People Act uses the phrase “so closely resembling an official poll card as to be calculated to deceive” It is S.94 of the 1995 RPA.

http://www.dca.gov.uk/legist/keeling/part2.pdf
94 Imitation poll cards
No person shall for the purpose of promoting or procuring the election of any candidate at a parliamentary election [or a local government election to which this section applies] issue any poll card or document so closely resembling an official poll card as to be calculated to deceive, and subsections (2) and (3) of section 92 above apply as if an offence under this section were an offence under that section.

]]> By: Rob Fenwick http://www.libdemvoice.org/did-labours-camden-election-campaign-break-the-law-329.html#comment-1879 Rob Fenwick Fri, 08 Dec 2006 09:59:35 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/did-labours-camden-election-campaign-break-the-law-329.html#comment-1879 Bloody youngsters coming over here, stealing our politics. Shouldn't be allowed I tell you, shouldn't be allowed. Bloody youngsters coming over here, stealing our politics. Shouldn’t be allowed I tell you, shouldn’t be allowed.

]]> By: David Boothroyd http://www.libdemvoice.org/did-labours-camden-election-campaign-break-the-law-329.html#comment-1878 David Boothroyd Fri, 08 Dec 2006 09:57:13 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/did-labours-camden-election-campaign-break-the-law-329.html#comment-1878 You young Lib Dem idiots are clearly unaware that it was standard practice until not very long ago for political parties to issue their own poll cards, especially for local elections. I have some that were issued in Westminster local elections. Have a look at http://www.election.demon.co.uk/wcc/warwick71.gif for a Conservative Party example. This is not illegal, it's just illegal to pretend to be the official poll card. You young Lib Dem idiots are clearly unaware that it was standard practice until not very long ago for political parties to issue their own poll cards, especially for local elections. I have some that were issued in Westminster local elections. Have a look at http://www.election.demon.co.uk/wcc/warwick71.gif for a Conservative Party example. This is not illegal, it’s just illegal to pretend to be the official poll card.

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