Comments on: Euro-referendum – the view from the Lib Dem blogosphere http://www.libdemvoice.org/euro-referendum-the-view-from-the-lib-dem-blogosphere-1315.html Our place to talk - an independent website for supporters of the Liberal Democrat party in the UK. Sat, 11 Feb 2012 08:55:56 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Paul Walter http://www.libdemvoice.org/euro-referendum-the-view-from-the-lib-dem-blogosphere-1315.html#comment-29706 Paul Walter Sat, 15 Sep 2007 13:35:16 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/euro-referendum-the-view-from-the-lib-dem-blogosphere-1315.html#comment-29706 Thank you Editor - no need to apologise - easily done. "I felt, on balance, the tone of my post was more agin Ming than pro-Ming (on this occasion)." Thanks Stephen - yes your tone was very anti-Ming and you were vindicated by the later press release on Friday. Thank you Editor – no need to apologise – easily done.

“I felt, on balance, the tone of my post was more agin Ming than pro-Ming (on this occasion).”

Thanks Stephen – yes your tone was very anti-Ming and you were vindicated by the later press release on Friday.

]]> By: Hywel Morgan http://www.libdemvoice.org/euro-referendum-the-view-from-the-lib-dem-blogosphere-1315.html#comment-29621 Hywel Morgan Fri, 14 Sep 2007 12:47:36 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/euro-referendum-the-view-from-the-lib-dem-blogosphere-1315.html#comment-29621 BBC website is reporting we have called for a referendum on Britain's EU membership saying "more soon" BBC website is reporting we have called for a referendum on Britain’s EU membership saying “more soon”

]]> By: Barrie Wood http://www.libdemvoice.org/euro-referendum-the-view-from-the-lib-dem-blogosphere-1315.html#comment-29618 Barrie Wood Fri, 14 Sep 2007 11:14:43 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/euro-referendum-the-view-from-the-lib-dem-blogosphere-1315.html#comment-29618 Liberals afraid of trusting the people aren't, well, very liberal. I've blogged on the {EU Reform Treaty] Referendum issue and am firmly in favour of it and think politically and tactically we need to support such. This issue cuts across opinion in all major parties, even an officially pro-EU party, like the Lib Dems. Failure to support a referendum may well lose the party seats in tight Westcountry Lib Dem / Tory contests - not a happy prospect ! Liberals afraid of trusting the people aren’t, well, very liberal.

I’ve blogged on the {EU Reform Treaty] Referendum issue and am firmly in favour of it and think politically and tactically we need to support such.

This issue cuts across opinion in all major parties, even an officially pro-EU party, like the Lib Dems. Failure to support a referendum may well lose the party seats in tight Westcountry Lib Dem / Tory contests – not a happy prospect !

]]> By: Toby Philpott http://www.libdemvoice.org/euro-referendum-the-view-from-the-lib-dem-blogosphere-1315.html#comment-29582 Toby Philpott Thu, 13 Sep 2007 20:44:38 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/euro-referendum-the-view-from-the-lib-dem-blogosphere-1315.html#comment-29582 I want to see no dissing of my position on this issue using the excuse I am a "serial dissident" by certain individuals. Any nonsense and there will be repercussions. I proudly stood on a pro-referendum platform as a Parliamentary Candidate in 1992 in Birmingham and I certainly have seen no convincing argument put forward to change that position on the current treaty. Let's get out there, take on the Europhobes and take the British people with us on the treaty. We've let UKIP and elements of the Tory Party poison the atmosphere about the EU for far too long. It is time they were taken on and trounced good and proper. I want to see no dissing of my position on this issue using the excuse I am a “serial dissident” by certain individuals.

Any nonsense and there will be repercussions.

I proudly stood on a pro-referendum platform as a Parliamentary Candidate in 1992 in Birmingham and I certainly have seen no convincing argument put forward to change that position on the current treaty.

Let’s get out there, take on the Europhobes and take the British people with us on the treaty.

We’ve let UKIP and elements of the Tory Party poison the atmosphere about the EU for far too long. It is time they were taken on and trounced good and proper.

]]> By: Liam Pennington http://www.libdemvoice.org/euro-referendum-the-view-from-the-lib-dem-blogosphere-1315.html#comment-29562 Liam Pennington Thu, 13 Sep 2007 12:27:21 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/euro-referendum-the-view-from-the-lib-dem-blogosphere-1315.html#comment-29562 A good point was made further up this post, and elsewhere in the blogosphere - whether the party are for or against the Treaty per se matter not; we are always asked to make the case for Europe, and this is surely the best opportunity to make that case. I am pro-Europe, and pro-referendum. I really didn't expect to find myself at odds with liberals or Liberals on the issue of putting matters of national importance to the vote! A good point was made further up this post, and elsewhere in the blogosphere – whether the party are for or against the Treaty per se matter not; we are always asked to make the case for Europe, and this is surely the best opportunity to make that case.

I am pro-Europe, and pro-referendum. I really didn’t expect to find myself at odds with liberals or Liberals on the issue of putting matters of national importance to the vote!

]]> By: Jeremy Hargreaves http://www.libdemvoice.org/euro-referendum-the-view-from-the-lib-dem-blogosphere-1315.html#comment-29553 Jeremy Hargreaves Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:30:47 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/euro-referendum-the-view-from-the-lib-dem-blogosphere-1315.html#comment-29553 Lloyd - Richard Laming has done a very good analysis <a href="http://www.euromove.org.uk/publications/briefings/reformtreaty" rel="nofollow">here (pdf)</a> which I think is what you are after. In answer to your last question about the "foreign minister" idea - it is closer to being just a single spokesman. She/he will have no new decision-making powers (unanimity from all member state governments will still be required on taking a position), but the person will have some greater ability to project that position internationally. That item is I would say the most significant change in the treaty - most of the rest are frankly piffling little things like capping the size of the European Parliament and insisting that the EU Council meet in public to agree legislation. Lloyd – Richard Laming has done a very good analysis here (pdf) which I think is what you are after.

In answer to your last question about the “foreign minister” idea – it is closer to being just a single spokesman. She/he will have no new decision-making powers (unanimity from all member state governments will still be required on taking a position), but the person will have some greater ability to project that position internationally.

That item is I would say the most significant change in the treaty – most of the rest are frankly piffling little things like capping the size of the European Parliament and insisting that the EU Council meet in public to agree legislation.

]]> By: lloyd http://www.libdemvoice.org/euro-referendum-the-view-from-the-lib-dem-blogosphere-1315.html#comment-29551 lloyd Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:15:21 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/euro-referendum-the-view-from-the-lib-dem-blogosphere-1315.html#comment-29551 What I want to know is how much if the treaty is new in terms of EU law. As I understand it the majority of the treaty is already EU law so if there is no change, then I agree no referendum on the treaty. However I would like to know from those who have read the document what are the new things and if theses new things are just consolidation of existing rules. e.g. the foreign minister idea - does this come with new powers or the same powers just vested in a single spokesman? What I want to know is how much if the treaty is new in terms of EU law.

As I understand it the majority of the treaty is already EU law so if there is no change, then I agree no referendum on the treaty.

However I would like to know from those who have read the document what are the new things and if theses new things are just consolidation of existing rules.

e.g. the foreign minister idea – does this come with new powers or the same powers just vested in a single spokesman?

]]> By: Stephen Tall http://www.libdemvoice.org/euro-referendum-the-view-from-the-lib-dem-blogosphere-1315.html#comment-29549 Stephen Tall Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:05:19 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/euro-referendum-the-view-from-the-lib-dem-blogosphere-1315.html#comment-29549 9 (Paul) - I wasn't taking a named vote! - just linking to those who'd posted on their blogs. I felt, on balance, the tone of my post was more agin Ming than pro-Ming (on this occasion). 9 (Paul) – I wasn’t taking a named vote! – just linking to those who’d posted on their blogs.

I felt, on balance, the tone of my post was more agin Ming than pro-Ming (on this occasion).

]]> By: Paul P http://www.libdemvoice.org/euro-referendum-the-view-from-the-lib-dem-blogosphere-1315.html#comment-29547 Paul P Thu, 13 Sep 2007 10:57:26 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/euro-referendum-the-view-from-the-lib-dem-blogosphere-1315.html#comment-29547 I am quite frankly embarrassed by Ming’s decision. Here’s hoping for an uplifting speech next Thursday, where he attempts to distance him self from Brown. I am quite frankly embarrassed by Ming’s decision. Here’s hoping for an uplifting speech next Thursday, where he attempts to distance him self from Brown.

]]> By: Alex Wilcock http://www.libdemvoice.org/euro-referendum-the-view-from-the-lib-dem-blogosphere-1315.html#comment-29546 Alex Wilcock Thu, 13 Sep 2007 10:53:38 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/euro-referendum-the-view-from-the-lib-dem-blogosphere-1315.html#comment-29546 ...But then there are all of us who've commented, say, on yesterday's Lib Dem Voice story, so you'd have to add me and others to the disagree column! And also to Paul Walter(s): tell me about it ;-) …But then there are all of us who’ve commented, say, on yesterday’s Lib Dem Voice story, so you’d have to add me and others to the disagree column!

And also to Paul Walter(s): tell me about it ;-)

]]> By: Paul Walter http://www.libdemvoice.org/euro-referendum-the-view-from-the-lib-dem-blogosphere-1315.html#comment-29545 Paul Walter Thu, 13 Sep 2007 10:49:10 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/euro-referendum-the-view-from-the-lib-dem-blogosphere-1315.html#comment-29545 PS My name has no "s" on the end of it - but don't worry, everyone does it to everyone in my vast extended family and indeed, for other families with first names as surnames (eg I have a friend called "Rodger" who is always called "Rodgers"! <strong><strong>[Editor's note: sorry, Paul. Duly corrected.]</strong><em></strong> PS My name has no “s” on the end of it – but don’t worry, everyone does it to everyone in my vast extended family and indeed, for other families with first names as surnames (eg I have a friend called “Rodger” who is always called “Rodgers”!

[Editor's note: sorry, Paul. Duly corrected.]

]]> By: Paul Walter http://www.libdemvoice.org/euro-referendum-the-view-from-the-lib-dem-blogosphere-1315.html#comment-29544 Paul Walter Thu, 13 Sep 2007 10:47:33 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/euro-referendum-the-view-from-the-lib-dem-blogosphere-1315.html#comment-29544 I tried to comment earlier but it seems to have evaporated. Peter Black AM ought to be added to the "agee with Ming" column - see comment on the Whiskey Priest blog. Also I am intrigued, Stephenus, why you put yourself in the "disagreeing with Ming" column when your post on the matter makes it crystal clear that you actually....er....agree with Ming but didn't like his choice of words - "too lawyerly" I think was your phrase. Perhaps there should be a third category: "Agreeing with Ming but incandescently indignant about his choice of words". I tried to comment earlier but it seems to have evaporated. Peter Black AM ought to be added to the “agee with Ming” column – see comment on the Whiskey Priest blog. Also I am intrigued, Stephenus, why you put yourself in the “disagreeing with Ming” column when your post on the matter makes it crystal clear that you actually….er….agree with Ming but didn’t like his choice of words – “too lawyerly” I think was your phrase. Perhaps there should be a third category: “Agreeing with Ming but incandescently indignant about his choice of words”.

]]> By: Anon http://www.libdemvoice.org/euro-referendum-the-view-from-the-lib-dem-blogosphere-1315.html#comment-29540 Anon Thu, 13 Sep 2007 09:25:59 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/euro-referendum-the-view-from-the-lib-dem-blogosphere-1315.html#comment-29540 This just proves to me that even the Lib Dems don't really know what they are talking about when it comes to understanding European Treaties - understanding what power and soverignty is in the 21st century - and also judging the mood of the British people. Compare new proposals to Nice Treaty (which they replace) and you will see little shift of any actual power. The big shifts in power happend at Maastricht - that is why we called for a referendum then - the Tories didn't. So there is no constitutional need for a referendum. The question then is - is one desireable? The answer to that is yes, as Britain (an inparticular the Tories and other Europhobes) has still not come to terms with the Maastricht settlement of 1991 when the EU was created in its current form. The real argument isn't about this new reform treaty, its about Britain's place in Europe. Don't let the Europhobes bamboozle you with arcana, people on the doorstep just think that we have given too much power away, they don't even really know what that power is. We should have a referendum! Lib Dems should be brave enough to call for the referendum that really matters and what this is really all about. In or out! This just proves to me that even the Lib Dems don’t really know what they are talking about when it comes to understanding European Treaties – understanding what power and soverignty is in the 21st century – and also judging the mood of the British people.

Compare new proposals to Nice Treaty (which they replace) and you will see little shift of any actual power. The big shifts in power happend at Maastricht – that is why we called for a referendum then – the Tories didn’t. So there is no constitutional need for a referendum. The question then is – is one desireable?

The answer to that is yes, as Britain (an inparticular the Tories and other Europhobes) has still not come to terms with the Maastricht settlement of 1991 when the EU was created in its current form. The real argument isn’t about this new reform treaty, its about Britain’s place in Europe. Don’t let the Europhobes bamboozle you with arcana, people on the doorstep just think that we have given too much power away, they don’t even really know what that power is.

We should have a referendum! Lib Dems should be brave enough to call for the referendum that really matters and what this is really all about. In or out!

]]> By: MatGB http://www.libdemvoice.org/euro-referendum-the-view-from-the-lib-dem-blogosphere-1315.html#comment-29539 MatGB Thu, 13 Sep 2007 09:25:52 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/euro-referendum-the-view-from-the-lib-dem-blogosphere-1315.html#comment-29539 @Graeme—the thing is, a lot of us calling for a referendum want one because we think we can win it. We're not anti europe or eurosceptics, we want it in order to make the case. So the party is split on whether to have a referendum, but a lot less split on what we want the result to be. although I've no doubt there will be some no campaigners, there'll be a lot less than in other parties. @Graeme—the thing is, a lot of us calling for a referendum want one because we think we can win it. We’re not anti europe or eurosceptics, we want it in order to make the case.

So the party is split on whether to have a referendum, but a lot less split on what we want the result to be. although I’ve no doubt there will be some no campaigners, there’ll be a lot less than in other parties.

]]> By: Trev Gillett http://www.libdemvoice.org/euro-referendum-the-view-from-the-lib-dem-blogosphere-1315.html#comment-29537 Trev Gillett Thu, 13 Sep 2007 09:24:29 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/euro-referendum-the-view-from-the-lib-dem-blogosphere-1315.html#comment-29537 I think it's about time this EU squeeze on the British voter was put to the test. If the Lib-Dems aren't allowed a voice in the House on this (by leadership decision)....then I will cease membership of the party -soon after the last chance to speak out against the EU takeover goes. I think it’s about time this EU squeeze on the British voter was put to the test.
If the Lib-Dems aren’t allowed a voice in the House on this (by leadership decision)….then I will cease membership of the party -soon after the last chance to speak out against the EU takeover goes.

]]> By: Jeremy Hargreaves http://www.libdemvoice.org/euro-referendum-the-view-from-the-lib-dem-blogosphere-1315.html#comment-29534 Jeremy Hargreaves Thu, 13 Sep 2007 08:58:53 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/euro-referendum-the-view-from-the-lib-dem-blogosphere-1315.html#comment-29534 Coming along just a little late (apologies), is <a href="http://www.jeremyhargreaves.org/blog/2007/ming-is-right-we-dont-need-a-referendum-on-this-treaty/" rel="nofollow">my blog comment</a> on this, which goes in the 'Agreeing with Ming' column. Coming along just a little late (apologies), is my blog comment on this, which goes in the ‘Agreeing with Ming’ column.

]]> By: Joe Taylor http://www.libdemvoice.org/euro-referendum-the-view-from-the-lib-dem-blogosphere-1315.html#comment-29533 Joe Taylor Thu, 13 Sep 2007 08:58:16 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/euro-referendum-the-view-from-the-lib-dem-blogosphere-1315.html#comment-29533 You can add me to the list of dissenters when I finally get round to blogging about it! You can add me to the list of dissenters when I finally get round to blogging about it!

]]> By: Letters From A Tory http://www.libdemvoice.org/euro-referendum-the-view-from-the-lib-dem-blogosphere-1315.html#comment-29532 Letters From A Tory Thu, 13 Sep 2007 08:54:45 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/euro-referendum-the-view-from-the-lib-dem-blogosphere-1315.html#comment-29532 After 54% of the Lib Dems on this website called for a referendum on the EU less than two weeks ago, this kind of reaction is hardly a surprise. http://www.libdemvoice.org/poll-result-ldv-readers-say-yes-to-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-1274.html After 54% of the Lib Dems on this website called for a referendum on the EU less than two weeks ago, this kind of reaction is hardly a surprise.

http://www.libdemvoice.org/poll-result-ldv-readers-say-yes-to-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-1274.html

]]> By: Graeme http://www.libdemvoice.org/euro-referendum-the-view-from-the-lib-dem-blogosphere-1315.html#comment-29529 Graeme Thu, 13 Sep 2007 08:31:01 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/euro-referendum-the-view-from-the-lib-dem-blogosphere-1315.html#comment-29529 One of the arguments for a referendum some LDs put forward is that we would be united during such a poll while the other parties split. This list goes some way to demonstrating the awful truth: while we may be officially a pro-European party, ours also contains a range of views. If anything, that pro-European label keeps most of the party's Eurosceptics quiet. I doubt that would remain the case during a referendum. One of the arguments for a referendum some LDs put forward is that we would be united during such a poll while the other parties split. This list goes some way to demonstrating the awful truth: while we may be officially a pro-European party, ours also contains a range of views. If anything, that pro-European label keeps most of the party’s Eurosceptics quiet. I doubt that would remain the case during a referendum.

]]> By: Chris Paul http://www.libdemvoice.org/euro-referendum-the-view-from-the-lib-dem-blogosphere-1315.html#comment-29527 Chris Paul Thu, 13 Sep 2007 08:04:42 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/euro-referendum-the-view-from-the-lib-dem-blogosphere-1315.html#comment-29527 Didn't I hear the official Lib Dem spokesman on Radio5Live about a week ago saying no need for a referendum? Sorry can't remember name. Didn’t I hear the official Lib Dem spokesman on Radio5Live about a week ago saying no need for a referendum? Sorry can’t remember name.

]]>