<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Finance and economics: what we have learned, and what still needs to be done &#8211; part 4</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.libdemvoice.org/finance-and-economics-what-we-have-learned-and-what-still-needs-to-be-done-part-4-6203.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/finance-and-economics-what-we-have-learned-and-what-still-needs-to-be-done-part-4-6203.html</link>
	<description>Our place to talk - an independent website for supporters of the Liberal Democrat party in the UK.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 12 Feb 2012 01:36:11 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1</generator>
<xhtml:meta xmlns:xhtml="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" name="robots" content="noindex" />
	<item>
		<title>By: Mark Inskip</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/finance-and-economics-what-we-have-learned-and-what-still-needs-to-be-done-part-4-6203.html#comment-72448</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Inskip</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Dec 2008 22:17:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=6203#comment-72448</guid>
		<description>And guess what, the ONS figures today show manufacturing production fell by 1.4% in October.

I see Tim has gone very quiet on this subject!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And guess what, the ONS figures today show manufacturing production fell by 1.4% in October.</p>
<p>I see Tim has gone very quiet on this subject!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mark Inskip</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/finance-and-economics-what-we-have-learned-and-what-still-needs-to-be-done-part-4-6203.html#comment-71607</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Inskip</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 14:01:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=6203#comment-71607</guid>
		<description>Tim wrote &#039;Manufacturing output (in volume terms) continues to rise&#039;
Really? Today&#039;s drop in the Purchasing Managers&#039; Index from 42.4 to 34.4 is consistent with manufacturing output contracting at an annual rate of around 10 percent!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tim wrote &#8216;Manufacturing output (in volume terms) continues to rise&#8217;<br />
Really? Today&#8217;s drop in the Purchasing Managers&#8217; Index from 42.4 to 34.4 is consistent with manufacturing output contracting at an annual rate of around 10 percent!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mark Inskip</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/finance-and-economics-what-we-have-learned-and-what-still-needs-to-be-done-part-4-6203.html#comment-71375</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Inskip</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Nov 2008 22:38:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=6203#comment-71375</guid>
		<description>Its a nonsense to say that cutting interest rates earlier would have made things worse. 

Change in monetary policy only affect the real economy with a substantial lag. Therefore those in charge of monetary policy need to be forward looking.

As late as September the MPC minutes stated &quot;most members judged that maintaining Bank Rate at 5% this month was necessary if inflation was to be brought back to the target in the medium term&quot; and that &quot;a case could be made for an increase in Bank rate&quot;.

Yet since the end of 2007 a many forward looking surveys of UK economic activity have indicated a marked downturn. Look at the GFK Consumer Confidence Surveys,  the CBI Industrial Trends Survey and the BCC Quarterly Surveys for examples.

In any other profession anyone making such a bad judgement call would be out of a job. For economists the rules appear to be different!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Its a nonsense to say that cutting interest rates earlier would have made things worse. </p>
<p>Change in monetary policy only affect the real economy with a substantial lag. Therefore those in charge of monetary policy need to be forward looking.</p>
<p>As late as September the MPC minutes stated &#8220;most members judged that maintaining Bank Rate at 5% this month was necessary if inflation was to be brought back to the target in the medium term&#8221; and that &#8220;a case could be made for an increase in Bank rate&#8221;.</p>
<p>Yet since the end of 2007 a many forward looking surveys of UK economic activity have indicated a marked downturn. Look at the GFK Consumer Confidence Surveys,  the CBI Industrial Trends Survey and the BCC Quarterly Surveys for examples.</p>
<p>In any other profession anyone making such a bad judgement call would be out of a job. For economists the rules appear to be different!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Tim Leunig</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/finance-and-economics-what-we-have-learned-and-what-still-needs-to-be-done-part-4-6203.html#comment-71328</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Leunig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Nov 2008 13:39:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=6203#comment-71328</guid>
		<description>Cutting 0.5% in May - which is what I recollect Blanchflower advocating - would not have prevented the downturn, or done much to mitigate it. A 0.5% cut 6 months ago is not a big thing compared to what has happened this autumn.

Cutting earlier could have made things worse: lower borrowing costs, more debt, higher house prices, and now bigger problems.

As Hywel says, % are not particularly effective at curbing house prices - or rather, the rates needed to curb the rises over the last few years are high (more than double, on average). That in turn would have raised £ even higher, destroying large parts of the economy. If we want to dampen oscilations in house prices we need supply to respond to demand, just as in the rest of the economy. 

Manufacturing output (in volume terms) continues to rise, although rises in productivity mean that manufacturing employment falls. Whether the £ is at $2 or $1.50 makes little difference in competitiveness cf China: our future has to be in the high skills sectors of the economy, mfg or services. 

I don&#039;t think we are likely to see unemployment rise in the way of the early 1980s, since there is no obvious need to shake out uncompetitive sectors (finance is much smaller now that mfg, mining etc was then). But peak unemployment may well be higher, because the economy has been poor at finding work for low skilled males, particularly those living outside the SE of England. So we start with more &quot;non-active&quot; males as a baseline.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cutting 0.5% in May &#8211; which is what I recollect Blanchflower advocating &#8211; would not have prevented the downturn, or done much to mitigate it. A 0.5% cut 6 months ago is not a big thing compared to what has happened this autumn.</p>
<p>Cutting earlier could have made things worse: lower borrowing costs, more debt, higher house prices, and now bigger problems.</p>
<p>As Hywel says, % are not particularly effective at curbing house prices &#8211; or rather, the rates needed to curb the rises over the last few years are high (more than double, on average). That in turn would have raised £ even higher, destroying large parts of the economy. If we want to dampen oscilations in house prices we need supply to respond to demand, just as in the rest of the economy. </p>
<p>Manufacturing output (in volume terms) continues to rise, although rises in productivity mean that manufacturing employment falls. Whether the £ is at $2 or $1.50 makes little difference in competitiveness cf China: our future has to be in the high skills sectors of the economy, mfg or services. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think we are likely to see unemployment rise in the way of the early 1980s, since there is no obvious need to shake out uncompetitive sectors (finance is much smaller now that mfg, mining etc was then). But peak unemployment may well be higher, because the economy has been poor at finding work for low skilled males, particularly those living outside the SE of England. So we start with more &#8220;non-active&#8221; males as a baseline.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/finance-and-economics-what-we-have-learned-and-what-still-needs-to-be-done-part-4-6203.html#comment-71324</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Nov 2008 11:40:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=6203#comment-71324</guid>
		<description>Tim,

It seems they agree with you at CentreForum.

http://www.centreforum.org/publications/inflation.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tim,</p>
<p>It seems they agree with you at CentreForum.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.centreforum.org/publications/inflation.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.centreforum.org/publications/inflation.html</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: David Evans</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/finance-and-economics-what-we-have-learned-and-what-still-needs-to-be-done-part-4-6203.html#comment-71299</link>
		<dc:creator>David Evans</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Nov 2008 00:05:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=6203#comment-71299</guid>
		<description>Tim,

Playing devil&#039;s advocate - but only a bit, because I think these scenarios are a real risk too many are ignoring.  

The experiment carried out by the Bank of England’s monetary policy committee has not worked out well.  They did nothing to head off the housing bubble, largely because they were not responsible for it, but they did provide a fig leaf for Gordon Brown to cover up his mismanagement of the economy, and by splitting responsibility into two, allowed him to confuse the issue and pretend all was well.  

The need to change the overall control structure back to an integrated one is clear for all to see.  Domestic inflation has been allowed to run riot in inefficient service industries which could hide their inefficiencies under fictitious rises in asset values, while manufacturing has gone further to the wall as it is faced with real international competition.  Prices of imports have been driven ridiculously low, due to the China effect and the excessive value of the pound.  This is now unravelling.

Stagflation may again become an issue as we no longer have a diverse economy, with little manufacturing industry in place to benefit from a falling exchange rate.  The wage price spiral will not be the problem; it will be the exchange rate price spiral.  I believe there is a real problem here and economists are still fighting the old war (against inflation) and not the new one.
Finally unemployment could surge drastically not like in the 1970s and 80s, but because we are so dependent on financial services to drive the economy and that area is the one that is failing the most.

David</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tim,</p>
<p>Playing devil&#8217;s advocate &#8211; but only a bit, because I think these scenarios are a real risk too many are ignoring.  </p>
<p>The experiment carried out by the Bank of England’s monetary policy committee has not worked out well.  They did nothing to head off the housing bubble, largely because they were not responsible for it, but they did provide a fig leaf for Gordon Brown to cover up his mismanagement of the economy, and by splitting responsibility into two, allowed him to confuse the issue and pretend all was well.  </p>
<p>The need to change the overall control structure back to an integrated one is clear for all to see.  Domestic inflation has been allowed to run riot in inefficient service industries which could hide their inefficiencies under fictitious rises in asset values, while manufacturing has gone further to the wall as it is faced with real international competition.  Prices of imports have been driven ridiculously low, due to the China effect and the excessive value of the pound.  This is now unravelling.</p>
<p>Stagflation may again become an issue as we no longer have a diverse economy, with little manufacturing industry in place to benefit from a falling exchange rate.  The wage price spiral will not be the problem; it will be the exchange rate price spiral.  I believe there is a real problem here and economists are still fighting the old war (against inflation) and not the new one.<br />
Finally unemployment could surge drastically not like in the 1970s and 80s, but because we are so dependent on financial services to drive the economy and that area is the one that is failing the most.</p>
<p>David</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mark Inskip</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/finance-and-economics-what-we-have-learned-and-what-still-needs-to-be-done-part-4-6203.html#comment-71290</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Inskip</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Nov 2008 23:31:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=6203#comment-71290</guid>
		<description>The MPC got it wrong month after month (with the exception of David Blanchflower). Even in September they still saw inflation as the threat. In April Blanchflower predicted house prices could fall by a third. In May he said the number of jobless in Britain could reach 2 million by Christmas. Meanwhile, King and the others ignored him and held rates too high for too long. The recession will undoubtedly be deeper than it needed to have been as a consequence.

As for wage inflation - this hasn&#039;t been a threat for a long time, there was a very well argued analysis again from Blanchflower on this point earlier in the year (March?).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The MPC got it wrong month after month (with the exception of David Blanchflower). Even in September they still saw inflation as the threat. In April Blanchflower predicted house prices could fall by a third. In May he said the number of jobless in Britain could reach 2 million by Christmas. Meanwhile, King and the others ignored him and held rates too high for too long. The recession will undoubtedly be deeper than it needed to have been as a consequence.</p>
<p>As for wage inflation &#8211; this hasn&#8217;t been a threat for a long time, there was a very well argued analysis again from Blanchflower on this point earlier in the year (March?).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Hywel Morgan</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/finance-and-economics-what-we-have-learned-and-what-still-needs-to-be-done-part-4-6203.html#comment-71287</link>
		<dc:creator>Hywel Morgan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Nov 2008 23:16:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=6203#comment-71287</guid>
		<description>Sorry Tim - I mean curbing *house* prices.  So a vastly different point :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry Tim &#8211; I mean curbing *house* prices.  So a vastly different point <img src='http://www.libdemvoice.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Tim Leunig</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/finance-and-economics-what-we-have-learned-and-what-still-needs-to-be-done-part-4-6203.html#comment-71284</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Leunig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Nov 2008 23:11:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=6203#comment-71284</guid>
		<description>Interest rates are reasonably effective at controlling inflation 9 years out of 10 - it has been on target for 9 out of 10 years. Whether it works now - we shall see...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interest rates are reasonably effective at controlling inflation 9 years out of 10 &#8211; it has been on target for 9 out of 10 years. Whether it works now &#8211; we shall see&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Hywel Morgan</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/finance-and-economics-what-we-have-learned-and-what-still-needs-to-be-done-part-4-6203.html#comment-71263</link>
		<dc:creator>Hywel Morgan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Nov 2008 20:56:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=6203#comment-71263</guid>
		<description>Tim could probably confirm this but I think interest rate rises would have limited effect on curbing price rises.  It also gives them a contradictory brief.  At several points cooling the housing market wanted a rate increase whereas other conditions required a cut - eg post 9/11</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tim could probably confirm this but I think interest rate rises would have limited effect on curbing price rises.  It also gives them a contradictory brief.  At several points cooling the housing market wanted a rate increase whereas other conditions required a cut &#8211; eg post 9/11</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Tim Leunig</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/finance-and-economics-what-we-have-learned-and-what-still-needs-to-be-done-part-4-6203.html#comment-71261</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Leunig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Nov 2008 20:53:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=6203#comment-71261</guid>
		<description>So how high are you saying % should have been? They would have had to have been pretty high indeed to stop house price rises over the last few years. 

House price problems are caused above all by problems in the housing market</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So how high are you saying % should have been? They would have had to have been pretty high indeed to stop house price rises over the last few years. </p>
<p>House price problems are caused above all by problems in the housing market</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mark Wright</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/finance-and-economics-what-we-have-learned-and-what-still-needs-to-be-done-part-4-6203.html#comment-71260</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Wright</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Nov 2008 20:36:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=6203#comment-71260</guid>
		<description>Hywel is right - they werent allowed to take the house-price bubble into account. One of Vince&#039;s points from last year was that they should have been able.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hywel is right &#8211; they werent allowed to take the house-price bubble into account. One of Vince&#8217;s points from last year was that they should have been able.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Hywel Morgan</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/finance-and-economics-what-we-have-learned-and-what-still-needs-to-be-done-part-4-6203.html#comment-71219</link>
		<dc:creator>Hywel Morgan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Nov 2008 14:34:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=6203#comment-71219</guid>
		<description>&quot;I think you’re giving the MPC far too much praise, they failed to act on the property bubble,&quot;

Property prices weren&#039;t part of their remit - except in as much as they affected CPI inflation which they don&#039;t seem to have done.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I think you’re giving the MPC far too much praise, they failed to act on the property bubble,&#8221;</p>
<p>Property prices weren&#8217;t part of their remit &#8211; except in as much as they affected CPI inflation which they don&#8217;t seem to have done.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mund</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/finance-and-economics-what-we-have-learned-and-what-still-needs-to-be-done-part-4-6203.html#comment-71216</link>
		<dc:creator>Mund</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Nov 2008 13:29:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=6203#comment-71216</guid>
		<description>We still had high inflation at that point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We still had high inflation at that point.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/finance-and-economics-what-we-have-learned-and-what-still-needs-to-be-done-part-4-6203.html#comment-71215</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Nov 2008 13:24:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=6203#comment-71215</guid>
		<description>Quite Aaron.

Interest rates should have come down over the summer when it was clear the commodity price bubble had run its course.  The fact that the MPC (bar one) failed to see this is quite incredible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quite Aaron.</p>
<p>Interest rates should have come down over the summer when it was clear the commodity price bubble had run its course.  The fact that the MPC (bar one) failed to see this is quite incredible.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Aaron Trevena</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/finance-and-economics-what-we-have-learned-and-what-still-needs-to-be-done-part-4-6203.html#comment-71214</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron Trevena</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Nov 2008 13:07:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=6203#comment-71214</guid>
		<description>I think you&#039;re giving the MPC far too much praise, they failed to act on the property bubble, and acted too late and in great haste when it popped.

They totally took their eyes off the ball, worrying about short term comodities prices like oil and grain, rather than the huge bubble under their noses.

Then acted several months late.

If you read the minutes and the vote spreadsheet, you see only one person who spots the problems early and calls them :  Blanchflower.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you&#8217;re giving the MPC far too much praise, they failed to act on the property bubble, and acted too late and in great haste when it popped.</p>
<p>They totally took their eyes off the ball, worrying about short term comodities prices like oil and grain, rather than the huge bubble under their noses.</p>
<p>Then acted several months late.</p>
<p>If you read the minutes and the vote spreadsheet, you see only one person who spots the problems early and calls them :  Blanchflower.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: MBoy</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/finance-and-economics-what-we-have-learned-and-what-still-needs-to-be-done-part-4-6203.html#comment-71211</link>
		<dc:creator>MBoy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Nov 2008 12:36:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=6203#comment-71211</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;workers are sensible enough not to demand high wage rises&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

They are? I dont see much of Unions saying &quot;we wont put in a high claim this year&quot; yet...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;workers are sensible enough not to demand high wage rises&#8221;</i></p>
<p>They are? I dont see much of Unions saying &#8220;we wont put in a high claim this year&#8221; yet&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

