Comments on: Has it all gone Jenny Tonge for David Ward?

By: Andi Ali

Andi Ali — Fri, 01 Feb 2013 20:49:26 +0000

Well said David Ward. It’s about time somebody in the Lib Dems tell the truth about Israel’s and brutal occupation of Palestine. If that offends the pro-Israel lobby so much the better.

By: Magidson

Magidson — Thu, 31 Jan 2013 07:15:35 +0000

David Ward has so done a Jenny Tonge. Dear readers please see Daniel Finklestein’s piece on page 19 of yesterday’s The Times for the clearest explanation of why, you will ever see.

By: Harvey

Harvey — Mon, 28 Jan 2013 05:29:39 +0000

@Mohammed Shafiq
Mohammed please explain to me why you use the term apartheid for Israel?
Please see my previous comment on why this term is totally inaccurate.
Thanks

By: Harvey

Harvey — Mon, 28 Jan 2013 05:28:31 +0000

@Mohammed Shafiq
Mohammed please explain to me why you use the term apartheid for Israel?
For apartheid to exist, there would have to be a situation that closely resembled how things were in South Africa under the apartheid regime. Unfortunately for those who believe this, a weekend in any part of Israel would be enough to show how ridiculous the claim is.
The most obvious focus for apartheid would be the country’s 20% Arab population. Under Israeli law, Arab Israelis have exactly the same rights as Jews or anyone else; Muslims have the same rights as Jews or Christians; Baha’is, severely persecuted in Iran, flourish in Israel, where they have their world center; Ahmadi Muslims, severely persecuted in Pakistan and elsewhere, are kept safe by Israel; the holy places of all religions are protected under a specific Israeli law. Arabs form 20% of the university population (an exact echo of their percentage in the general population).
In Iran, the Bahai’s (the largest religious minority) are forbidden to study in any university or to run their own universities: why aren’t you using the term apartheid re Iran? Arabs in Israel can go anywhere they want, unlike blacks in apartheid South Africa. They use public transport, they eat in restaurants, they go to swimming pools, they use libraries, they go to cinemas alongside Jews – something no blacks were able to do in South Africa.
Israeli hospitals not only treat Jews and Arabs, they also treat Palestinians from Gaza or the West Bank. On the same wards, in the same operating theaters.
In Israel, women have the same rights as men: there is no gender apartheid. Gay men and women face no restrictions, and Palestinian gays often escape into Israel, knowing they may be killed at home.
Irony is just now the Arab League actively encouraged Israeli Arabs to get out there and vote which is more than most Arabs can do in their own countries….

By: Matthew Huntbach

Matthew Huntbach — Sun, 27 Jan 2013 20:59:34 +0000

Charles Beaumont

So you’re saying that a group that has been victimised has a heavier obligation to call out other’s victimisation.

Obligation, no, but I think there is a sort of expectation that people from a group which has suffered in some way when they were the underdogs would have a particular sensitivity to this issue when they are in control. Human nature being what it is, this never seems to be the case.

By: Liberal Al

Liberal Al — Sun, 27 Jan 2013 17:27:16 +0000

“We can all make these kinds of mistakes; express ourselves poorly and then when criticised react overly defensively. But I hope after sleeping on it he will realise the best response to expressing yourself poorly is to clarify the meaning not to double down.”

Psi, I often agree with you and once more I do here; I did not misunderstand, I realise the problem was not just a poor use of language, but then he his refusal to correct himself. However, I feel that as you state here, Ward’s refusal to correct himself was more out of defensiveness and probably outright panic than anything else. I just wished to point out to the previous poster why usage of one’s language is important and not just people being pedantic. Anyway, thankfully, he has now corrected himself.

By: Richard Dean

Richard Dean — Sun, 27 Jan 2013 01:52:10 +0000

Perhaps in the light of a liberal Sunday morning, Brian, you may realize that your comment is rather more insulting to Jewish people than you may have thought when making it.

By: Mike B

Mike B — Sat, 26 Jan 2013 23:54:18 +0000

It’s all in the timing. Appalling timing and crass insensitivity. Oh yes, and playing to the gallery in his constituency.

By: Brian

Brian — Sat, 26 Jan 2013 22:58:58 +0000

In his effort at damage control, David Ward has now said:: “In my comments this week I was trying to make clear that everybody needs to learn the lessons of the Holocaust.”

Lesson of the Holocaust #1: When someone slanders the Jews, take it seriously.
Have the Lib-Dems learned the lesson of the Holocaust? If they have, they’ll Kick David Ward out of the party.

By: Harvey

Harvey — Sat, 26 Jan 2013 20:55:57 +0000

The apartheid claim regarding Israel is a fallacy. For apartheid to exist, there would have to be a situation that closely resembled how things were in South Africa under the apartheid regime. Unfortunately for those who believe this, a weekend in any part of Israel would be enough to show how ridiculous the claim is.
The most obvious focus for apartheid would be the country’s 20% Arab population. Under Israeli law, Arab Israelis have exactly the same rights as Jews or anyone else; Muslims have the same rights as Jews or Christians; Baha’is, severely persecuted in Iran, flourish in Israel, where they have their world center; Ahmadi Muslims, severely persecuted in Pakistan and elsewhere, are kept safe by Israel; the holy places of all religions are protected under a specific Israeli law. Arabs form 20% of the university population (an exact echo of their percentage in the general population).
In Iran, the Bahai’s (the largest religious minority) are forbidden to study in any university or to run their own universities: why aren’t your members boycotting Iran? Arabs in Israel can go anywhere they want, unlike blacks in apartheid South Africa. They use public transport, they eat in restaurants, they go to swimming pools, they use libraries, they go to cinemas alongside Jews – something no blacks were able to do in South Africa.
Israeli hospitals not only treat Jews and Arabs, they also treat Palestinians from Gaza or the West Bank. On the same wards, in the same operating theaters.
In Israel, women have the same rights as men: there is no gender apartheid. Gay men and women face no restrictions, and Palestinian gays often escape into Israel, knowing they may be killed at home.
Irony is just now the Arab League actively encouraged Israeli Arabs to get out there and vote which is more than most Arabs can do in their own countries….

By: Anthony Hawkes

Anthony Hawkes — Sat, 26 Jan 2013 20:15:59 +0000

It is right and proper to support the right of Israel to exist. It is also right and proper to condemn the way that Israel treats the Palestinians. I thank Anthony (not me) for taking the time to list some of the many UN resolutions concerning Israel. I do not know anyone who has visited Palestine, including Mr Ward, who has not come back very angry with the injustice of it all. While his words may have been intemperate, I am extremely glad that Mr Ward has enough conviction to highlight a situation that is simply not acceptable.

I have read Mr Ward’s apology and it seem fine to me. Is there anything left to argue about?

By: Steve Way

Steve Way — Sat, 26 Jan 2013 18:26:10 +0000

He has now made the statement he should have made on Sky…

http://davidward.org.uk/en/article/2013/654558/david-ward-mp-s-update-on-israel-palestine-comments

If only he had done so earlier we could all have been talking rightly about the horrific situation he was trying to highlight.

By: Charles Beaumont

Charles Beaumont — Sat, 26 Jan 2013 18:15:40 +0000

Phyllis: jews “should be the first to condemn … given their history”. So you’re saying that a group that has been victimised has a heavier obligation to call out other’s victimisation. I don’t follow. Perhaps Anglican Christians should be first to condemn as it’s the established religion of the UK, a country that did more than most to enable the state of Israel to come into being. Except of course most Anglicans aren’t in fact English…

By: Psi

Psi — Sat, 26 Jan 2013 17:52:09 +0000

@ Phyllis

Why? Why should one racial or religious group be compelled to act for any reason. People are individuals and can should be treated as such not “expected” to say or do certain things based upon crimes inflicted against their families or people who may be of no identifiable blood relation to them.

Basic liberal stuff, people are individuals are have the right to be treated as such.

@ Charles Beaumomt
Quite right, Mark V missed something and when it was pointed out to him he accepted it and adjusted his argument in light of the new evidence. The problem is that David Ward had his error pointed out to him and did not accept his error instead reinforced it.

By: Psi

Psi — Sat, 26 Jan 2013 17:42:52 +0000

@ ColinW

Ah, now I have seen the light two wrongs definitely make a right…

By: Phyllis

Phyllis — Sat, 26 Jan 2013 17:01:48 +0000

Isn’t he just saying that all Jews, whether they live in Israel r not, should be the first to condemn what is happening in Palestine , given their history? We knw that there is a powerful pro-Israel lobby in the US and elsewhere. It’s not just about the Israeli government,, is it?

By: Charles Beaumomt

Charles Beaumomt — Sat, 26 Jan 2013 16:49:32 +0000

Mark V, fully accept an innocent mistake. We’ve all made them. Maybe it’s because of personal familiarity with these issues, but I do find it surprising that an MP and a well-connected party activist could have fallen into such an obvious error. And the arguments that it’s a “Jewish state” so that’s OK are mind blowingly stupid and anyone who proposes it should be ashamed. If Saudi Arabia beheads a Philipino (as happened a few months ago) would we say, ‘once again the Muslims have enacted a horrific punishment after a totally inadequate judicial process. After all, it is an Islamic state.” Well, you could say that but it would clearly Islamophobia.

Why is this a difficult concept to grasp?

By: Mark Valladares

Mark Valladares — Sat, 26 Jan 2013 15:51:23 +0000

Charles,

You would not believe how disappointed I am in myself that I missed the reference to “the Jews”. It was a question of haste over precision, which in no way excuses the error.

I picked up on the contentious relating of the Holocaust to more recent events in the West Bank and Gaza, and felt that there was a legitimate argument to be had – I’m not persuaded that the comparison is a fair one, but I know that others feel differently.

However, conflating the State of Israel and “the Jews” is horribly flawed, over-generalising and ignorant of the facts. Whilst the actions of the Israeli government are fair game for condemnation if you disagree with them, the diaspora hold a range of views from complete support to total opposition, through all points in between. So, at the very least, the language used by David Ward was lazy.

And then, there is the question of offence. If offence was not intended, a full and frank apology was the obvious course of action. If the language used did not reflect his intent, and was simply clumsy and flawed, he could have issued a clarification, learned a valuable lesson and moved on. Unfortunately, it seems that either he didn’t understand how the language offends or, more worryingly, doesn’t care.

Meanwhile, the message from the Party appears to have subtly changed. Initially, it was his comments that were condemned, whereas now it is his “use of language” that is now the issue, according to the BBC. That implies that it was not his intention to cause offence, and I can only hope that this is the case.

I’ve certainly learned a valuable lesson in my role as editor and author. It’s likely that David has too…

By: Prudence

Prudence — Sat, 26 Jan 2013 15:39:40 +0000

Is it just possible that Mr Ward’s slim majority, large number of Muslim constituents and upcoming proposed boundary changes might have had something to do with his outburst? Surely not!

By: Chris Beney

Chris Beney — Sat, 26 Jan 2013 15:13:03 +0000

My newspaper, the Independent, often refers to Israel as ‘the jewish state’. That always jars with me but it is technically true. Some people say David Ward should have said ‘the israelis’ instead of ‘the jews’. I understand that. But in referring to the holocaust I took it he was referring to those killed who were jews, not to those who were homosexuals or others. Saying in effect ‘Have you not, as jews, learned?’
My brother-in-law is an israeli but not jewish, David Ward was not referring to him or his like, though he and his family happen to be very upset by the sufferings of the palestinians. So jew rather than israeli was in order, but open to misunderstanding.