Comments on: Jan Moir: the dilemma for the PCC (and what you should say in your complaint) http://www.libdemvoice.org/jan-moir-the-dilemma-for-the-pcc-and-what-you-should-say-in-your-complaint-16560.html Our place to talk - an independent website for supporters of the Liberal Democrat party in the UK. Sat, 11 Feb 2012 08:55:56 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Matthew Cain http://www.libdemvoice.org/jan-moir-the-dilemma-for-the-pcc-and-what-you-should-say-in-your-complaint-16560.html#comment-100238 Matthew Cain Wed, 21 Oct 2009 14:36:29 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=16560#comment-100238 The PCC is quite consistent at taking complaints from third parties about breaches of clause 1, but not other clauses. Indeed Chris Meyer argued that investigating cases without the consent of the person involved could further breach their privacy. This alludes to the real challenge for the PCC: an organisation constituted as a complaints resolution body, trying to meet expectations of an independent self-regulatory organisation. Cases like this bring that tension to the fore. The PCC is quite consistent at taking complaints from third parties about breaches of clause 1, but not other clauses. Indeed Chris Meyer argued that investigating cases without the consent of the person involved could further breach their privacy.

This alludes to the real challenge for the PCC: an organisation constituted as a complaints resolution body, trying to meet expectations of an independent self-regulatory organisation. Cases like this bring that tension to the fore.

]]> By: Ariane http://www.libdemvoice.org/jan-moir-the-dilemma-for-the-pcc-and-what-you-should-say-in-your-complaint-16560.html#comment-100147 Ariane Tue, 20 Oct 2009 17:28:07 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=16560#comment-100147 @Robson I think you'll find that there is far more at stake here than mere illogicality. A man was kicked to death this week, in broad daylight, by two teenage girls and a teenage boy purely because he was gay. Articles and attitudes like those of Jan Moir fuel such rampant homophobia. "Sheer lack of illogical argument getting on people's nerves" pales into insignificance beside the brutal fact that people in this country ARE kicked and beaten to death for being gay. 22 000 people did NOT go to the effort of complaining to the PCC, and it isn't easy, merely because of a lack of logical argument. It is clear from this single post of yours and your concerns re Jan Moir's article that you are neither gay nor have anyone close who is. Good for you. @Robson

I think you’ll find that there is far more at stake here than mere illogicality. A man was kicked to death this week, in broad daylight, by two teenage girls and a teenage boy purely because he was gay. Articles and attitudes like those of Jan Moir fuel such rampant homophobia. “Sheer lack of illogical argument getting on people’s nerves” pales into insignificance beside the brutal fact that people in this country ARE kicked and beaten to death for being gay.

22 000 people did NOT go to the effort of complaining to the PCC, and it isn’t easy, merely because of a lack of logical argument. It is clear from this single post of yours and your concerns re Jan Moir’s article that you are neither gay nor have anyone close who is.

Good for you.

]]> By: Robson http://www.libdemvoice.org/jan-moir-the-dilemma-for-the-pcc-and-what-you-should-say-in-your-complaint-16560.html#comment-100135 Robson Tue, 20 Oct 2009 12:09:50 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=16560#comment-100135 I think it's the sheer lack of logical argument in this piece that has really got on people's nerves. Jan's message was "the gay one from Boyzone is dead, now i'm not saying he did, but don't you think he gayed himself to death like that Little Britain fella's hubby?" and thus crassly attacked two incredibly popular figures and all gay people everywhere at once. I doubt very much, as Malcolm points out, that this will mean less stuff from Littlejohn and the other bastions of Britain's moral compass. And why would we want that? Freedom of the press means freedom in other parts of the press to attack, insult, and deconstruct it. And Peter Hitchens's Cameron bashing a few pages away from Cable's columns is sure to mean something come the election. No, the Mail, like the BNP, has its place in a democratic society - firmly at the bottom of it. I think it’s the sheer lack of logical argument in this piece that has really got on people’s nerves. Jan’s message was “the gay one from Boyzone is dead, now i’m not saying he did, but don’t you think he gayed himself to death like that Little Britain fella’s hubby?” and thus crassly attacked two incredibly popular figures and all gay people everywhere at once.

I doubt very much, as Malcolm points out, that this will mean less stuff from Littlejohn and the other bastions of Britain’s moral compass. And why would we want that? Freedom of the press means freedom in other parts of the press to attack, insult, and deconstruct it. And Peter Hitchens’s Cameron bashing a few pages away from Cable’s columns is sure to mean something come the election. No, the Mail, like the BNP, has its place in a democratic society – firmly at the bottom of it.

]]> By: John http://www.libdemvoice.org/jan-moir-the-dilemma-for-the-pcc-and-what-you-should-say-in-your-complaint-16560.html#comment-100107 John Mon, 19 Oct 2009 23:38:46 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=16560#comment-100107 Wonder how natural jans life is mm let's dig Wonder how natural jans life is mm let’s dig

]]> By: malcolm coles http://www.libdemvoice.org/jan-moir-the-dilemma-for-the-pcc-and-what-you-should-say-in-your-complaint-16560.html#comment-100086 malcolm coles Mon, 19 Oct 2009 21:34:08 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=16560#comment-100086 I think the PCC won't rule on this in the end - they'll just wait for it blow over. It's writing to the Mail "for its response to the more general complaints from the public before considering whether there are any issues under the Code to pursue." Surely it could launch an investigation before hearing the Mail's reply? It should know whether there are any issues under the Code. However, as you say, the issue isn't the Code - it's the PCC's refusal to investigate unless someone directly mentioned complains. The whole thing is a farce anyway - the PCC, chair Paul Dacre, writing to the Mail, editor Paul Dacre. I think the PCC won’t rule on this in the end – they’ll just wait for it blow over. It’s writing to the Mail “for its response to the more general complaints from the public before considering whether there are any issues under the Code to pursue.”
Surely it could launch an investigation before hearing the Mail’s reply? It should know whether there are any issues under the Code. However, as you say, the issue isn’t the Code – it’s the PCC’s refusal to investigate unless someone directly mentioned complains.
The whole thing is a farce anyway – the PCC, chair Paul Dacre, writing to the Mail, editor Paul Dacre.

]]> By: Mark Pack http://www.libdemvoice.org/jan-moir-the-dilemma-for-the-pcc-and-what-you-should-say-in-your-complaint-16560.html#comment-100063 Mark Pack Mon, 19 Oct 2009 19:06:19 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=16560#comment-100063 Sarah: thanks; glad you found it helpful. Looks like from the PCC's statement today that they will fully investigate the issue, fingers crossed... Sarah: thanks; glad you found it helpful. Looks like from the PCC’s statement today that they will fully investigate the issue, fingers crossed…

]]> By: Drop Jan a line! http://www.libdemvoice.org/jan-moir-the-dilemma-for-the-pcc-and-what-you-should-say-in-your-complaint-16560.html#comment-100040 Drop Jan a line! Mon, 19 Oct 2009 14:14:06 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=16560#comment-100040 Say a big hello to Jan at her email address, tell her *exactly* what you think of her article: jan.moir@dailymail.co.uk I did, and I encourage everyone to do the same! Say a big hello to Jan at her email address, tell her *exactly* what you think of her article:

I did, and I encourage everyone to do the same!

]]> By: Sarah Trashy http://www.libdemvoice.org/jan-moir-the-dilemma-for-the-pcc-and-what-you-should-say-in-your-complaint-16560.html#comment-100021 Sarah Trashy Mon, 19 Oct 2009 10:08:31 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=16560#comment-100021 Hi Mark Thanks so much for this - have copied the advice onto the facebook page (and credited you). Hopefully if we all complain AGAIN, they may just be forced to address it. Hi Mark

Thanks so much for this – have copied the advice onto the facebook page (and credited you). Hopefully if we all complain AGAIN, they may just be forced to address it.

]]> By: LDV’s weekend round-up (17-18 Oct ‘09) http://www.libdemvoice.org/jan-moir-the-dilemma-for-the-pcc-and-what-you-should-say-in-your-complaint-16560.html#comment-100014 LDV’s weekend round-up (17-18 Oct ‘09) Mon, 19 Oct 2009 08:57:10 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=16560#comment-100014 [...] Tall The LDV Saturday caption competition – Bedford mayoral sensation (12) by Stephen Tall Jan Moir: the dilemma for the PCC (and what you should say in your complaint) (8) by Mark Pack Lembit: it’s time to pull out of Afghanistan (7) by Stephen Tall Jenny [...] [...] Tall The LDV Saturday caption competition – Bedford mayoral sensation (12) by Stephen Tall Jan Moir: the dilemma for the PCC (and what you should say in your complaint) (8) by Mark Pack Lembit: it’s time to pull out of Afghanistan (7) by Stephen Tall Jenny [...]

]]> By: Letters From A Tory http://www.libdemvoice.org/jan-moir-the-dilemma-for-the-pcc-and-what-you-should-say-in-your-complaint-16560.html#comment-100010 Letters From A Tory Mon, 19 Oct 2009 08:37:39 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=16560#comment-100010 "The Press Complaints Commission does not have the best of reputations to begin with" And the award for Understatement of the Day goes to..... The PCC is impotent when it comes to holding newspapers to account and no political party has the balls to do anything about it - simple as that. “The Press Complaints Commission does not have the best of reputations to begin with”

And the award for Understatement of the Day goes to…..

The PCC is impotent when it comes to holding newspapers to account and no political party has the balls to do anything about it – simple as that.

]]> By: Mark Pack http://www.libdemvoice.org/jan-moir-the-dilemma-for-the-pcc-and-what-you-should-say-in-your-complaint-16560.html#comment-99984 Mark Pack Sun, 18 Oct 2009 17:02:45 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=16560#comment-99984 I think it's an excellent point too Mark :-) Though a bit puzzled why others aren't making it too? I think it’s an excellent point too Mark :-) Though a bit puzzled why others aren’t making it too?

]]> By: Mark Hanson http://www.libdemvoice.org/jan-moir-the-dilemma-for-the-pcc-and-what-you-should-say-in-your-complaint-16560.html#comment-99982 Mark Hanson Sun, 18 Oct 2009 16:53:36 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=16560#comment-99982 Excellent point about plummeting trust in the media and it's linkage to why people are no longer paying to consume media. That discussion is often a technical one based on platforms as opposed to the often fuzzy news 'values' of the big media brands. Excellent point about plummeting trust in the media and it’s linkage to why people are no longer paying to consume media. That discussion is often a technical one based on platforms as opposed to the often fuzzy news ‘values’ of the big media brands.

]]> By: Jan Moir: an SEO lesson from the long tail of search results | Mark Pack http://www.libdemvoice.org/jan-moir-the-dilemma-for-the-pcc-and-what-you-should-say-in-your-complaint-16560.html#comment-99963 Jan Moir: an SEO lesson from the long tail of search results | Mark Pack Sun, 18 Oct 2009 09:11:42 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=16560#comment-99963 [...] Google search statistics for people coming to my article about Jan Moir, Stephen Gately and the PCC over on Lib Dem Voice are a handy reminder of just how big the long tail is on many search [...] [...] Google search statistics for people coming to my article about Jan Moir, Stephen Gately and the PCC over on Lib Dem Voice are a handy reminder of just how big the long tail is on many search [...]

]]> By: michael http://www.libdemvoice.org/jan-moir-the-dilemma-for-the-pcc-and-what-you-should-say-in-your-complaint-16560.html#comment-99961 michael Sun, 18 Oct 2009 08:55:43 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=16560#comment-99961 thankyou for that i was wondering what to do, anyone else is wondering, simply "copy" and "paste" into a reply, maybe the serverswill crash again and someone will sit up and listen :O) although one bit of bad news is that ive heard one of the daily hate editors sits on the complaints commission board, lord help us all!! cheers again thankyou for that i was wondering what to do, anyone else is wondering, simply “copy” and “paste” into a reply, maybe the serverswill crash again and someone will sit up and listen :O) although one bit of bad news is that ive heard one of the daily hate editors sits on the complaints commission board, lord help us all!! cheers again

]]> By: crewegwyn http://www.libdemvoice.org/jan-moir-the-dilemma-for-the-pcc-and-what-you-should-say-in-your-complaint-16560.html#comment-99942 crewegwyn Sat, 17 Oct 2009 20:36:03 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=16560#comment-99942 Without wishing in any way to diminish the offensiveness of the article, I do find it odd that the Daily Mail has been - for years - publishing vile, spiteful articles about immigrants, migrant workers, Muslims etc. etc. but it takes an article relating to a celebrity to prompt this sort of response. Without wishing in any way to diminish the offensiveness of the article, I do find it odd that the Daily Mail has been – for years – publishing vile, spiteful articles about immigrants, migrant workers, Muslims etc. etc. but it takes an article relating to a celebrity to prompt this sort of response.

]]> By: David Boothroyd http://www.libdemvoice.org/jan-moir-the-dilemma-for-the-pcc-and-what-you-should-say-in-your-complaint-16560.html#comment-99918 David Boothroyd Sat, 17 Oct 2009 14:03:12 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=16560#comment-99918 This isn't an accident. The PCC was created to replace the Press Council, which did accept complaints made by third parties, and did get offensive pieces reported to it. There was one well-known person who would report any pejorative and irrelevant mention of the race of someone in the news. This practice got on the nerves of the newspaper editors, so when the PCC was set up after the Calcutt Report the editors made sure that third party reports were not "normally" allowed. This isn’t an accident. The PCC was created to replace the Press Council, which did accept complaints made by third parties, and did get offensive pieces reported to it. There was one well-known person who would report any pejorative and irrelevant mention of the race of someone in the news. This practice got on the nerves of the newspaper editors, so when the PCC was set up after the Calcutt Report the editors made sure that third party reports were not “normally” allowed.

]]> By: “Twitter and Facebook outrage over Jan Moir’s Stephen Gately article” and related posts http://www.libdemvoice.org/jan-moir-the-dilemma-for-the-pcc-and-what-you-should-say-in-your-complaint-16560.html#comment-99915 “Twitter and Facebook outrage over Jan Moir’s Stephen Gately article” and related posts Sat, 17 Oct 2009 13:24:20 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=16560#comment-99915 [...] Jan Moir: the dilemma for the PCC (and what you should say in your complaint) - Liberal Democrat Voice [...] [...] Jan Moir: the dilemma for the PCC (and what you should say in your complaint) - Liberal Democrat Voice [...]

]]>