Comments on: Jo Swinson: “Ban airbrushing in children’s adverts” http://www.libdemvoice.org/jo-swinson-ban-airbrushing-in-childrens-adverts-15807.html Our place to talk - an independent website for supporters of the Liberal Democrat party in the UK. Sun, 12 Feb 2012 01:36:11 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Stuart Mitchell http://www.libdemvoice.org/jo-swinson-ban-airbrushing-in-childrens-adverts-15807.html#comment-136188 Stuart Mitchell Thu, 05 Aug 2010 20:35:02 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=15807#comment-136188 I think the whole concept of "Real Women" is ill-conceived and offensive. The implication is that some women (usually, ones who are not thin) are "real" whereas other women presumably are not. At least that is always the impression given in the endless newspaper articles and TV programmes championing "real women", which invariably include a torrent of abuse aimed at "skinny" and "skeletal" (i.e. not real) women. The whole thing stinks. All women are real women, whatever size and shape they are, and it is simply crass to think that you can improve the confidence of one group of women by marginalising a different group of women. I'd be interested to know what the Lib Dem definition of a "real woman" is. If it is simply any woman, then what's with all this "real" nonsense? I think the whole concept of “Real Women” is ill-conceived and offensive. The implication is that some women (usually, ones who are not thin) are “real” whereas other women presumably are not. At least that is always the impression given in the endless newspaper articles and TV programmes championing “real women”, which invariably include a torrent of abuse aimed at “skinny” and “skeletal” (i.e. not real) women.

The whole thing stinks. All women are real women, whatever size and shape they are, and it is simply crass to think that you can improve the confidence of one group of women by marginalising a different group of women. I’d be interested to know what the Lib Dem definition of a “real woman” is. If it is simply any woman, then what’s with all this “real” nonsense?

]]> By: Ralph L http://www.libdemvoice.org/jo-swinson-ban-airbrushing-in-childrens-adverts-15807.html#comment-136110 Ralph L Thu, 05 Aug 2010 12:03:36 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=15807#comment-136110 I welcome this move and do not consider it illiberal at all. A ban on airbrushing / retouching children’s advertisements (and compulsory labelling for other advertisements) would merely complement the existing stringent laws against misleading advertising. I used to work in this area as a consumer lawyer at the OFT and (even though it is accepted market practice and has not been subject to regulatory challenge) there is a good argument that any retouching of a model’s image in an advertisement is unlawful. Using Snow-White in an advert would not be misleading, as she is clearly a cartoon character, but using a manipulated image of a person is likely to be misleading unless the retouching would be obvious to the average member of the target audience (e.g. the average girl aged 10-14). As for what any ban / warning statement would apply to, I think we can clearly distinguish between make-up / lighting etc, which should remain legal (as it represents exactly what the camera captured during the shoot), and manipulation of a digital or printed image, which should be subject to control. And on a moral level, what is the social harm in insisting that advertisers use unmanipulated images in children’s advertisements? I can see that this may lead to the adverts being very slightly less effective but surely this commercial interest would be strongly outweighed by the public interest. I welcome this move and do not consider it illiberal at all. A ban on airbrushing / retouching children’s advertisements (and compulsory labelling for other advertisements) would merely complement the existing stringent laws against misleading advertising. I used to work in this area as a consumer lawyer at the OFT and (even though it is accepted market practice and has not been subject to regulatory challenge) there is a good argument that any retouching of a model’s image in an advertisement is unlawful. Using Snow-White in an advert would not be misleading, as she is clearly a cartoon character, but using a manipulated image of a person is likely to be misleading unless the retouching would be obvious to the average member of the target audience (e.g. the average girl aged 10-14).

As for what any ban / warning statement would apply to, I think we can clearly distinguish between make-up / lighting etc, which should remain legal (as it represents exactly what the camera captured during the shoot), and manipulation of a digital or printed image, which should be subject to control.

And on a moral level, what is the social harm in insisting that advertisers use unmanipulated images in children’s advertisements? I can see that this may lead to the adverts being very slightly less effective but surely this commercial interest would be strongly outweighed by the public interest.

]]> By: Libdem Guru http://www.libdemvoice.org/jo-swinson-ban-airbrushing-in-childrens-adverts-15807.html#comment-96124 Libdem Guru Wed, 12 Aug 2009 14:16:32 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=15807#comment-96124 Does on-one understand the media at Cowley Street? (i'm beginning to wonder) Mind you, do they understand the voting public or party members? Does on-one understand the media at Cowley Street? (i’m beginning to wonder)

Mind you, do they understand the voting public or party members?

]]> By: Hywel http://www.libdemvoice.org/jo-swinson-ban-airbrushing-in-childrens-adverts-15807.html#comment-96122 Hywel Wed, 12 Aug 2009 13:49:33 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=15807#comment-96122 @Mark The party's own Real Women site collecting media comment on the policy paper only gives links to "airbrushing stories" and nothing on the rape convictions point. On your second point, it could of course be true that the media are more interested in gimmicky and superficial stories than more serious ones.... @Mark

The party’s own Real Women site collecting media comment on the policy paper only gives links to “airbrushing stories” and nothing on the rape convictions point.

On your second point, it could of course be true that the media are more interested in gimmicky and superficial stories than more serious ones….

]]> By: Dan http://www.libdemvoice.org/jo-swinson-ban-airbrushing-in-childrens-adverts-15807.html#comment-95973 Dan Sat, 08 Aug 2009 22:44:31 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=15807#comment-95973 Oh dear Mark - what's of most interest to the media is knee jerk reactionism. So why not get rid of anything Liberal in our policies and simply regurgitate lowest common denominator bollocks that fuels the lick spittled prejudice of the Sun, Mail and Express? Or we could call ourselves Liberals and stop idiotic policy working groups chaired by self publicising MPs coming up with shite like this. In fact - lets get rid of self appointed, self interested, self seeking policy groups altogether - they always come up with stuff that either accepts 'expert' producer interest or lunatic ill thought out useless drivel like this. We might be able to save some money that might go some way to pay off the half a million defecit we ran up last year. Oh dear Mark – what’s of most interest to the media is knee jerk reactionism. So why not get rid of anything Liberal in our policies and simply regurgitate lowest common denominator bollocks that fuels the lick spittled prejudice of the Sun, Mail and Express? Or we could call ourselves Liberals and stop idiotic policy working groups chaired by self publicising MPs coming up with shite like this. In fact – lets get rid of self appointed, self interested, self seeking policy groups altogether – they always come up with stuff that either accepts ‘expert’ producer interest or lunatic ill thought out useless drivel like this. We might be able to save some money that might go some way to pay off the half a million defecit we ran up last year.

]]> By: Mark Pack http://www.libdemvoice.org/jo-swinson-ban-airbrushing-in-childrens-adverts-15807.html#comment-95970 Mark Pack Sat, 08 Aug 2009 20:47:12 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=15807#comment-95970 My Google must be different to yours Hywel (actually, quite possible given the various permutation of options, search terms and data centres) as it throws up a decent clutch of local and regional coverage. But actually either way, I think this undermines your original complaint about the air-brushing story being pulled out to be press released rather than other parts of the paper because whilst we might think other parts of the policy paper are in a policy sense more important, it's the airbrushing proposals which are of the most interest to the media. My Google must be different to yours Hywel (actually, quite possible given the various permutation of options, search terms and data centres) as it throws up a decent clutch of local and regional coverage. But actually either way, I think this undermines your original complaint about the air-brushing story being pulled out to be press released rather than other parts of the paper because whilst we might think other parts of the policy paper are in a policy sense more important, it’s the airbrushing proposals which are of the most interest to the media.

]]> By: Hywel http://www.libdemvoice.org/jo-swinson-ban-airbrushing-in-childrens-adverts-15807.html#comment-95967 Hywel Sat, 08 Aug 2009 19:28:45 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=15807#comment-95967 Based on a Google news search on Lynne's quote in the rape figures story and the phrase "one in 16"/"1 in 16" that story has not been reported anywhere in the mainstream media. If the strategy was a partial release of different aspects then it doesn't seem to have worked. Based on a Google news search on Lynne’s quote in the rape figures story and the phrase “one in 16″/”1 in 16″ that story has not been reported anywhere in the mainstream media.

If the strategy was a partial release of different aspects then it doesn’t seem to have worked.

]]> By: Libdem Guru http://www.libdemvoice.org/jo-swinson-ban-airbrushing-in-childrens-adverts-15807.html#comment-95963 Libdem Guru Sat, 08 Aug 2009 18:11:40 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=15807#comment-95963 i can't believe you lot are still debating this minor point. has miss swinson and the party not got better things to do? i can’t believe you lot are still debating this minor point. has miss swinson and the party not got better things to do?

]]> By: Alan Knight http://www.libdemvoice.org/jo-swinson-ban-airbrushing-in-childrens-adverts-15807.html#comment-95955 Alan Knight Sat, 08 Aug 2009 15:30:07 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=15807#comment-95955 Policies have to be practical and much as it may be desirable to ban airbrushing I wonder if it is feasible. I would like to see a draft bill which can be checked by leading lawyers. Policies have to be practical and much as it may be desirable to ban airbrushing I wonder if it is feasible. I would like to see a draft bill which can be checked by leading lawyers.

]]> By: Alex http://www.libdemvoice.org/jo-swinson-ban-airbrushing-in-childrens-adverts-15807.html#comment-95945 Alex Sat, 08 Aug 2009 00:55:44 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=15807#comment-95945 "Hywel: of those different parts of the policy paper, the one that looks to me most likely to get media interest is the one that’s been press released first. ‘Lib Dems say women should feel safe’, even spiced up a bit, doesn’t really have the same news value (it’s what lots of people have been saying for a long time). Whatever the merits of the proposal (and I’ll be interested to see Jo’s response on the question of why ban rather than label), it seems to me this is a good example of the party’s media operation working as it should – take something from a policy paper and get widespread media coverage for it." Except the media has reported this as "Lib Dems want to ban airbrushing". With no caveats or anything. Terrible policy, which is searching for a problem to fix which doesn't exist. “Hywel: of those different parts of the policy paper, the one that looks to me most likely to get media interest is the one that’s been press released first. ‘Lib Dems say women should feel safe’, even spiced up a bit, doesn’t really have the same news value (it’s what lots of people have been saying for a long time). Whatever the merits of the proposal (and I’ll be interested to see Jo’s response on the question of why ban rather than label), it seems to me this is a good example of the party’s media operation working as it should – take something from a policy paper and get widespread media coverage for it.”

Except the media has reported this as “Lib Dems want to ban airbrushing”. With no caveats or anything.

Terrible policy, which is searching for a problem to fix which doesn’t exist.

]]> By: YelloSmurf http://www.libdemvoice.org/jo-swinson-ban-airbrushing-in-childrens-adverts-15807.html#comment-95916 YelloSmurf Fri, 07 Aug 2009 11:42:01 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=15807#comment-95916 It's not just girls who drop out of excercise. I would have done almost anything to be allowed to get out of PE at school (come to think of it, I did an extra GCSE that I neither needed nor wanted to avoid an extra half an hour of excercise). The problem with sport in schools is that, if you're no good at it (I am dispraxic, and therefore hopelessly un-co-ordinated) it becomes a sort of ritual humiliation. It’s not just girls who drop out of excercise. I would have done almost anything to be allowed to get out of PE at school (come to think of it, I did an extra GCSE that I neither needed nor wanted to avoid an extra half an hour of excercise). The problem with sport in schools is that, if you’re no good at it (I am dispraxic, and therefore hopelessly un-co-ordinated) it becomes a sort of ritual humiliation.

]]> By: Hywel http://www.libdemvoice.org/jo-swinson-ban-airbrushing-in-childrens-adverts-15807.html#comment-95915 Hywel Fri, 07 Aug 2009 11:28:47 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=15807#comment-95915 It is indeed 44 not 44% Source is a PQ referenced here http://lesbonner.mycouncillor.org.uk/2009/05/27/eating-disorder-hospital-admissions-for-girls-up-47/ It is indeed 44 not 44%

Source is a PQ referenced here
http://lesbonner.mycouncillor.org.uk/2009/05/27/eating-disorder-hospital-admissions-for-girls-up-47/

]]> By: Mike Gradwell http://www.libdemvoice.org/jo-swinson-ban-airbrushing-in-childrens-adverts-15807.html#comment-95912 Mike Gradwell Fri, 07 Aug 2009 10:49:48 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=15807#comment-95912 I hope that I haven't missed the point about children sanbikinoraion, but is a child 15 or 16 or 17? What about vulnerable adults? I can't see the difference between vulnerable adults and children so let's include them. What about the definition of "photoshopping" which was previously "airbrushing"? Cropping, desaturating, and even putting words on saying "this photo has been manipulated" are all photo manipulations. Let's define children because it's different ages for different things, but mostly let's define photoshop because that could take years. Then let's organise the beauty police. I hope that I haven’t missed the point about children sanbikinoraion, but is a child 15 or 16 or 17? What about vulnerable adults? I can’t see the difference between vulnerable adults and children so let’s include them. What about the definition of “photoshopping” which was previously “airbrushing”? Cropping, desaturating, and even putting words on saying “this photo has been manipulated” are all photo manipulations. Let’s define children because it’s different ages for different things, but mostly let’s define photoshop because that could take years.

Then let’s organise the beauty police.

]]> By: Herbert Brown http://www.libdemvoice.org/jo-swinson-ban-airbrushing-in-childrens-adverts-15807.html#comment-95910 Herbert Brown Fri, 07 Aug 2009 10:48:10 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=15807#comment-95910 <I>"44% of girls under 9 have received hospital treatment for an eating disorder?? I’m afraid that’s a statistic that I find particularly hard to swallow."</I> I think it's "44 girls", not "44% of girls"! “44% of girls under 9 have received hospital treatment for an eating disorder?? I’m afraid that’s a statistic that I find particularly hard to swallow.”

I think it’s “44 girls”, not “44% of girls”!

]]> By: sanbikinoraion http://www.libdemvoice.org/jo-swinson-ban-airbrushing-in-childrens-adverts-15807.html#comment-95908 sanbikinoraion Fri, 07 Aug 2009 10:30:07 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=15807#comment-95908 44% of girls under 9 have received hospital treatment for an eating disorder?? I'm afraid that's a statistic that I find particularly hard to swallow. Cite, please! (Incidentally, I think that banning photoshopping of body images of ads aimed at kids is entirely reasonable, and indeed that it should be editorial content as well as advertising. Most people here seem to have missed the point that it is for stuff aimed <i>at children</i> not at adults.) 44% of girls under 9 have received hospital treatment for an eating disorder?? I’m afraid that’s a statistic that I find particularly hard to swallow. Cite, please!

(Incidentally, I think that banning photoshopping of body images of ads aimed at kids is entirely reasonable, and indeed that it should be editorial content as well as advertising. Most people here seem to have missed the point that it is for stuff aimed at children not at adults.)

]]> By: Michael Gradwell http://www.libdemvoice.org/jo-swinson-ban-airbrushing-in-childrens-adverts-15807.html#comment-95903 Michael Gradwell Fri, 07 Aug 2009 08:56:36 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=15807#comment-95903 I was just thinking that if we set up the beauty police and the corresponding beauty courts we would have comments like "I didn't remove a blemish Your Honour. Look, make-up does it". I think George Orwell and Aldous Huxley wrote about this type of police state but I didn't think it was a liberal one. I was just thinking that if we set up the beauty police and the corresponding beauty courts we would have comments like “I didn’t remove a blemish Your Honour. Look, make-up does it”. I think George Orwell and Aldous Huxley wrote about this type of police state but I didn’t think it was a liberal one.

]]> By: Hywel http://www.libdemvoice.org/jo-swinson-ban-airbrushing-in-childrens-adverts-15807.html#comment-95902 Hywel Fri, 07 Aug 2009 08:45:21 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=15807#comment-95902 @Mark That may be the strategy but this story made it onto the BBC politics pages, the immeasurably more serious story on rape convictions hasn't (at least as yet) @Mark

That may be the strategy but this story made it onto the BBC politics pages, the immeasurably more serious story on rape convictions hasn’t (at least as yet)

]]> By: Hywel http://www.libdemvoice.org/jo-swinson-ban-airbrushing-in-childrens-adverts-15807.html#comment-95825 Hywel Wed, 05 Aug 2009 23:25:44 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=15807#comment-95825 Those are hospital admissions - presumably there are some being treated out of hospital. Those are hospital admissions – presumably there are some being treated out of hospital.

]]> By: Hywel http://www.libdemvoice.org/jo-swinson-ban-airbrushing-in-childrens-adverts-15807.html#comment-95823 Hywel Wed, 05 Aug 2009 23:24:00 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=15807#comment-95823 "Note: the policy paper is talking about banning airbrushed ads aimed at children." How many of these are there? Surely many of these sorts of things are promoting beauty & clothing products and are aimed equally at adults and children. "Hell, I’m horrified that the number of girls under 9 who are being treated for eating disorders is now up 25%." A bit of googling gives me the figures that they are up from 35 to 44 which puts the %age figure into a bit of context “Note: the policy paper is talking about banning airbrushed ads aimed at children.”

How many of these are there? Surely many of these sorts of things are promoting beauty & clothing products and are aimed equally at adults and children.

“Hell, I’m horrified that the number of girls under 9 who are being treated for eating disorders is now up 25%.”
A bit of googling gives me the figures that they are up from 35 to 44 which puts the %age figure into a bit of context

]]> By: Mike Gradwell http://www.libdemvoice.org/jo-swinson-ban-airbrushing-in-childrens-adverts-15807.html#comment-95790 Mike Gradwell Wed, 05 Aug 2009 17:41:27 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=15807#comment-95790 According to Brendan Behan there was no such thing as bad publicity. I can't help thinking that when Walter Wolfgang was removed from the Labour Party conference that it was bad publicity for Labour. There are many other examples of bad publicity for the Labour Party. Just do a search on the name Gordon Brown. So we do have to be careful about what we say as Liberal Democrats. It doesn't matter what Walter was saying. People only remenber that he tried to say it and he was ejected from the conference hall. So let's have discussions even if we don't agree with the proposals although I am getting a little concerned that 'dangerous' may be a useful adjective if unworkable and illiberal opinions are defended so strongly. According to Brendan Behan there was no such thing as bad publicity. I can’t help thinking that when Walter Wolfgang was removed from the Labour Party conference that it was bad publicity for Labour. There are many other examples of bad publicity for the Labour Party. Just do a search on the name Gordon Brown. So we do have to be careful about what we say as Liberal Democrats. It doesn’t matter what Walter was saying. People only remenber that he tried to say it and he was ejected from the conference hall. So let’s have discussions even if we don’t agree with the proposals although I am getting a little concerned that ‘dangerous’ may be a useful adjective if unworkable and illiberal opinions are defended so strongly.

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