I think on Mark’s thoroughly sensible note, it’s time (I’m sure some would say it’s past time!) to shut down the public debate on this issue. Members may carry on the discussion on our discussion board if you want to say “and one more thing!”

Congratulations on a thoroughly disheartening debate, which I’m sure will be held against us by the sort of people who need only the slightest of excuses to attack our credibility.

Just one point, if I may. The Party has a clearly defined process for disciplinary action against any member. It doesn’t involve issuing press releases to try to influence the debate, but seeks a proper debate of the evidence, followed by a measured decision as to appropriate action. It might have been better had we all borne this in mind before entering into a public slanging match. Openness and transparency are thoroughly good and noble things, but justice is equally valuable…

The only point I would like to add to the forum is that although the Party has made a statement against Jenny Tonge’s comments the wider issue here is how the Party is perceived on the Middle East in general. Where I have a problem is that we are always condemning Israel for this that and the other but we never seem to be commending for anything. I know for instance that phone calls were made by the IDF (a first in warfare I believe) to the blocks of houses where the Hizbollah were hiding to advise residents to get out due to imminent bombings – not reported in the press.

I do not believe that Israel purposely targets civilians and if we were faced by hostile neighbours from all sides how would we react? I think that Israel is scared and as very young country feels threatened when all its neighbours want to push it into the sea. I agree that many of its actions appear to be overreactions etc but I can seldom recall any Lib Dem commending Israel for any action it takes. Balance I guess is my issue and I think when people in the Party like Gavin and others see the Party displaying more balance in our public pronouncements perhaps our credibility on the issue will be raised a few notches.

All interesting reading although the only person I take issue with is Colin W – no need to swear and be discourteous. Gavin is entitled to his view as much as the rest of us and it is quite intriguing to see that our party has a pro-Israeli point of view, something I commend.

Matt

Chris Davies has probably done more on the ground on a practical level to defeat the BNP in the North West of England. All the while the Lib Dems in Brentwood have gone from majority control to 7 councillors with the BNP making strong advances. I know whose approach I prefer…

I think it’s fair comment.

I don’t agree with a lot of what Gavin has said but I would say his credentials in challenging them are pretty much much unimpeachable so I think that’s a pretty unfair suggestion.

If we lived in Israel, or worse, in Gaza, in Southern Lebanon, or the West Bank, we would not have the luxury of all this being somewhat academic and theoretical. For the UK end of this row (it isn’t a debate), why can’t we all accept that we are anti-racist. That is why many of us came into the liberal movement, Lib Dems etc. I have met people who are not always the pure milk of anti- or non – racism in the party, and it is not tolerable, but for those who have campaigned hard against racism I think it is very blinkered to condemn them because they “have their language wrong”, eg. “in the financial grips of…”, “conspiracy…” etc. Agreed, people need to watch the words that are used (eg Thatcher’s ‘swamping’) where they have entered the language as a sort of code. But everyone gets caught out like that from time to time!

On the real debate, on the Middle East and the need to get agreements – when there are conflict situations you have organisations expressing views that we would condemn, and rather not hear from the comfort of the Union bar. Everyone here, for instance, has condemned both Hamas and Hizbollah. Compare that to the situation on the ground, where Hamas has been elected as the Palestinian Govt, and Hizbollah has been feted by many Lebanese people as a powerful defender. It no doubt is the case that both these organisations are Islamist (although to keep describing them as mere pawns of Iran or Syria seems to lack balance). But what is obvious is that they are strong community organisations as well as militias, and we, along with Europe, would be wise to put pressure on Israel to include these groups in discussions (when such take place – presumably when the next US President takes office). The lessons from Iraq and Afghanistan are all too clear – people get more violent, and more extreme, the more they are kept out of the loop.

On specifics – Gary Bellamy top of the student debating class – playing to Gavin’s ego – “Mr. Stollar….” and putting down Gareth “Gareth…” Result – continuing row.
Colin W – Entry to the EU for Israel??! Yes, I know they are in Eurovision, and various European championships, but surely that’s for the reason that several of their neighbours won’t accept them in their area events! We should be working towards ensuring neighbourliness, not accepting existing hatreds.

I grew up in a part of Loindon that has a large Jewish population. I had many Jewish school friends, joined in with festivals and other parts of their religion. I have the greatest of respect for Judaism as a faith and for its members. I would find it very hard to be described as anti-semitic.

However I cannot see what the problem is with Jenny’s comments. Her opponents seem to be using the worst of student union politics and Ming seems to have fallen for it. Saying that anyone who is against much of what the State of Israel is doing is anti-Jewish and therefore racist is simply the worst sort of Trot-style knee jerking.

Jenny did not say that she supported suicide bombers. She said that she could understand why they did what they did in the position that they are in. As a mother, I can understand why the father of Holly Wells wants to kill Ian Huntley. If it had been my daughter, I may have felt the same. But it doesn’t make it right.

I don’t think many of us have all the information needed to totally prove or disprove the comments that Jenny made at conference. But as far as I am concerned, they are not out of keeping with party policy or the preamble to the constitution. Jenny is a liberal in the best traditions and a fair-minded, compassionate and intelligent member of the party of many years standing. Just the sort of person that apparently GS and friends would like to send to Respect. If she is forced out, there will be many of us forced to consider our own positions.

I commend the leadership on the decisive action taken and will continue to press to get Jenny Tonge removed from the Lib Dem benches of the Lords.

If we are unsucessful you can bet your bottom dollar that she will fall foul of a racist remark again soon enough, this time however the leadership will have the standing orders in place to be rid of her once and for all.

End of postings…

What is your qualification for being the sole arbiter of public opinion or indeed opinion within the Liberal Democrats?

And what are your criticisms of the current Israeli government?

You appear to feel that if you patronise Mr Stollar your argument will somehow gain more credance. As I said when I first posted, I am critical of Israel where I feel it is justified but find your logic on discrediting Mr Stollar’s position somewhat flawed. He has outlined why he feels Tonge should go in three or four postings above – did you miss that?

This has guy clearly been fighting the BNP in Epping and even gone as far as to put his head above the parapet to say so ref: the article he quotes. Just because his views do not meet yours you seem to feel patronising will somehow win you more friends.

I say again, I fear the majority would align themselves with Mr Stollar and not you Gareth. Jenny Tonge has form and for all the many reasons stated above, she should go.

GB

His demands that anyone who expresses pro-Palestine views should resign (in capital letters), er, don’t sit well with a party that condemned the actions of the Israel government in inflicting collective punishment on Lebanon at its democratic conference just 4 weeks ago.

Now I’ve been around a little longer than Gavin. My old local party had to root out a racist element – not gesture ‘racism’, Gavin, but the real, ugly kind. But this party does not conduct itself by the sort of centralist diktat that removes Parliamentarians on the leader’s say-so. Remember Howard Flight? Gavin, your attitude to party democracy appears more suited to the Tories.

Gavin’s vulgar repetition and rhetoric (his words) discredit the Party and bring it into disrepute. Perhaps he should grow up and concentrating on dealing with the proper anti-Semites in his own back yard.

‘All these people seeking to defend our ‘friends’ Jenny and Chris fail to recognise on every single occasion (without exception) OUR PARTY has made a stand against them. If you disagree with Charles’ sacking of Tonge originally – RESIGN, if you disagree with the Chris Davies’ sacking – RESIGN, if you disagree with Ming’s recent public slap down of Tonge – RESIGN’

Hmmm – so if you disagree with me get out of my party. How very mature and Liberal.

You may not like people disagreeing with you Gavin – but it’s called a debate and we are a democratic party that tolerates a variety of views. You may not agree with them, but tough. I don’t agree with your views, but I’ll defend your right to express them – at least do your opponents that courtesy and end this stupid and illiberal witch hunt.

I concur with much of what Mr Stollar says. His arguments are justifed and well reasoned.

Galloway’s Party seems to be more suited to many people posting on this site.

Tony, I say again, do drop me a line with your evidence of Jewish money controlling the Liberal Party, I would be most interested to hear what you have to say.

It’s easy, you can email –

“The BNP is still smarting over a Standards Board ruling in June that it was acceptable to call the BNP “nazi”. Cllr Terry Farr had complained when Gavin Stollar, a Liberal Democrat councillor, said, “We don’t want nazis in our town”. Rejecting his complaint the Standards Board said that Stollar “expressed his views on a rival political party within the normal and acceptable limits of political debate”.

Stollar, who was a general election candidate for Brentwood and Ongar, had made the comment after the BNP held a conference in Brentwood in January. It was not directed at any individual BNP member.

Gareth – engage in the debate my friend, don’t simply discredit what I say without dealing without challenging the issues I raise, interesting that you choose not to challenge my take on matters though.

As for Chris Davies – if you think it is ok to call for a constituent to “wallow in their own filth” (you can check with him that he said that!!!) after questioning his views on the Middle East then you are about as credible as he is.

All these people seeking to defend our ‘friends’ Jenny and Chris fail to recognise on every single occasion (without exception) OUR PARTY has made a stand against them. If you disagree with Charles’ sacking of Tonge originally – RESIGN, if you disagree with the Chris Davies’ sacking – RESIGN, if you disagree with Ming’s recent public slap down of Tonge – RESIGN.

Your Party cannot be getting such things so very wrong all the time, can it? And if they are then what are you still doing here? I’m absolutely sure that George Galloway’s mob would be delighted to receive you. You can be sure Jenny and Chris would not be told off for saying what they have done with George at the helm.

The bottom line here is I am proud to be a Lib Dem and Charles Kennedy, Tom McNally, Navnit Dholakia, Ming Campbell are/were the leaders of our Party and I trust their judgment, if you don’t, perhaps YOU are in the wrong Party.

I rest my case…

What Jenny Tonge said can by no stretch of the imagination can be called racist, and anyone who knows her knows she is no racist.

The idea that any comment mentioning financial interests or lobbying on behalf of Israel is playing to BNP/racist stereotypes of Jewish people is ludicrous and dangerously counter productive. The fact that there is this concerted witchhunt against her makes it more likely people will believe there is some Jewish/Zionist conspiracy at work.

Politics is a rough game and people say and do things in the heat of debate that on sober reflection they probably wish they had done differently – it’s part of the democratic process.

Instead of organising a false witchunt against Jenny Tonge – I’d recomend Gavin Stoller does two things – one he could take some advice from Chris Davies and start to beat the BNP in his own backyard of Epping and secondly he could work with his other friends of Israel to put some pressure (financial or otherwise) on that government to stop acting illegally immorally and counter productively and seek a peaceful solution to the Palestinian problem – and that means dealing with their democratically elected representatives – just like the UK governemnt did in northern Ireland.

Out of interest Jenny has issued this statement…

I will not be silenced
from
http://www.iwitness.co.uk/uk/1006u-01.htm

BARONESS Jenny Tonge insists she will continue to speak out for rights
of the Palestinian people despite Israeli groups accusing her of anti
Semitism.

A number of Israeli groups including the Board of British Jews and the
Jewish Leadership Council have objected to comments made by the former
Richmond Park MP at a meeting hosted by the Palestinian Solidarity
Campaign. She is alleged to have said: “The pro Israeli lobby has got
its grips on the Western world, its financial grips. I think they have
probably got a certain grip on our party.” She is also accused of
repeating her support for suicide bombings.

Gavin Stollar, spokesman for the Liberal Democrat Friends of Israel
said: “Jenny Tonge’s original support for suicide bombers in Israel got
her sacked from the front bench. I think her vulgar repetition and
rhetoric means that her position in the party needs to be seriously
reviewed.”

However speaking to the iWitness Mss Tonge reveals pressure from pro
Israeli groups will not silence her.

She said: “At the meeting we were discussing why Israel gets away with
flouting international law? The Israeli action in Lebanon was illegal,
as is the collective punishment being handed out to the people in Gaza
and the continued occupation of Palestine. The reason they get away with
it is because if anyone speaks out they get accused of anti Semitism and
no one wants to be associated with that tag.

“It is not anti Semetic to criticise the Israeli government as it is not
anti American to criticise George W Bush or anti Muslim to speak out
against Islamic extremists. I know of many Jewish people from groups
such as One Voice and Jews for Justice for Palestinians who are appalled
at what the Israeli Government has done in the past and what it
continues to do. It is our duty to raise the profile of such groups.”

Ms Tonge joined the Lib Dems in 1959 and was elected as an MP in 1997
and re elected in 2001 with a majority of 4,964. However in January
2004 she was asked to step down from front bench politics after stating
he understood what drove some Palestinians to turn into suicide bombers.

Speaking to the iWitness she continued: “I have never supported suicide
bombings or any other kind of violence whether it be from groups or
Governments. What I said was that if I was a Palestinian who had to
endure decades of humiliation, starvation, brutality then I might
consider becoming one. I am trying to understand what drives people to
strap bombs onto themselves. The reality is that anyone who tries to
speak out for the Palestinians will be accused of being anti Semitic and
as a result some people have given into the pressure. I can assure
everyone that I for one will continue to speak out against the brutality
shown by the Israeli government.”