Comments on: Ming says EU reform treaty referendum “not necessary” http://www.libdemvoice.org/ming-says-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-%e2%80%9cnot-necessary%e2%80%9d-1312.html Our place to talk - an independent website for supporters of the Liberal Democrat party in the UK. Sat, 11 Feb 2012 08:55:56 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Geoffrey Payne http://www.libdemvoice.org/ming-says-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-%e2%80%9cnot-necessary%e2%80%9d-1312.html#comment-29600 Geoffrey Payne Fri, 14 Sep 2007 06:57:23 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/ming-says-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-%e2%80%9cnot-necessary%e2%80%9d-1312.html#comment-29600 In response to Alex, the reality is that Ming had to say something. How is he supposed to respond when he is asked by the media where the Lib Dems stand on this issue? "I will give you my answer when we have discussed it at conference"? Although in principle I agree he should not unilaterally decide policy, on this issue I think he had no choice but to do so. However we do need a debate on this issue, I am not clear in my own mind how to sell our current policy position and I hope things will become clearer at conference. In response to Alex, the reality is that Ming had to say something. How is he supposed to respond when he is asked by the media where the Lib Dems stand on this issue? “I will give you my answer when we have discussed it at conference”?
Although in principle I agree he should not unilaterally decide policy, on this issue I think he had no choice but to do so.
However we do need a debate on this issue, I am not clear in my own mind how to sell our current policy position and I hope things will become clearer at conference.

]]> By: Ralph http://www.libdemvoice.org/ming-says-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-%e2%80%9cnot-necessary%e2%80%9d-1312.html#comment-29558 Ralph Thu, 13 Sep 2007 12:11:55 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/ming-says-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-%e2%80%9cnot-necessary%e2%80%9d-1312.html#comment-29558 Laurence, Is it really such a 'complex document' that it can't be summed up on a sheet of A4 in such a way that anyone can understand it? The real issue is that the Lib Dems made a commitment they have now broken. Laurence,

Is it really such a ‘complex document’ that it can’t be summed up on a sheet of A4 in such a way that anyone can understand it?

The real issue is that the Lib Dems made a commitment they have now broken.

]]> By: Laurence Boyce http://www.libdemvoice.org/ming-says-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-%e2%80%9cnot-necessary%e2%80%9d-1312.html#comment-29536 Laurence Boyce Thu, 13 Sep 2007 09:20:40 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/ming-says-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-%e2%80%9cnot-necessary%e2%80%9d-1312.html#comment-29536 I know, I'm feeling a little strange too! I know, I’m feeling a little strange too!

]]> By: Jeremy Hargreaves http://www.libdemvoice.org/ming-says-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-%e2%80%9cnot-necessary%e2%80%9d-1312.html#comment-29535 Jeremy Hargreaves Thu, 13 Sep 2007 09:10:25 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/ming-says-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-%e2%80%9cnot-necessary%e2%80%9d-1312.html#comment-29535 This is very alarming. I feel quite disorientated. It is such a new feeling - on this issue, <b>I agree with Laurence!</b> This is very alarming. I feel quite disorientated. It is such a new feeling – on this issue, I agree with Laurence!

]]> By: Hywel Morgan http://www.libdemvoice.org/ming-says-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-%e2%80%9cnot-necessary%e2%80%9d-1312.html#comment-29513 Hywel Morgan Wed, 12 Sep 2007 22:37:11 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/ming-says-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-%e2%80%9cnot-necessary%e2%80%9d-1312.html#comment-29513 Gavin - as the Face of Boe said, "You Are Not Alone" :-) Gavin – as the Face of Boe said, “You Are Not Alone” :-)

]]> By: Libertine http://www.libdemvoice.org/ming-says-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-%e2%80%9cnot-necessary%e2%80%9d-1312.html#comment-29512 Libertine Wed, 12 Sep 2007 22:23:10 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/ming-says-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-%e2%80%9cnot-necessary%e2%80%9d-1312.html#comment-29512 And yet no less arbitrary for that, Stephen. I am pro-referendums in principle, but in practice find myself tortured in the voting booth - as I suspect does Laurence? - by the fact that I haven't had time to read 17 white papers, the last three years' worth of academic political journals etc etc. And the question becomes more acute when the voting decision involves such (relatively) unfamiliar implications as does any kind of vote on "Europe". However much one trawls for info, I suspect plain unfamiliarity with what the complex document MEANS (let us say) is actually the problem Laurence is talking about. Stop me if I'm rambling. And yet no less arbitrary for that, Stephen. I am pro-referendums in principle, but in practice find myself tortured in the voting booth – as I suspect does Laurence? – by the fact that I haven’t had time to read 17 white papers, the last three years’ worth of academic political journals etc etc. And the question becomes more acute when the voting decision involves such (relatively) unfamiliar implications as does any kind of vote on “Europe”. However much one trawls for info, I suspect plain unfamiliarity with what the complex document MEANS (let us say) is actually the problem Laurence is talking about.

Stop me if I’m rambling.

]]> By: Stephen Tall http://www.libdemvoice.org/ming-says-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-%e2%80%9cnot-necessary%e2%80%9d-1312.html#comment-29510 Stephen Tall Wed, 12 Sep 2007 21:37:06 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/ming-says-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-%e2%80%9cnot-necessary%e2%80%9d-1312.html#comment-29510 If we used referendums more, of course, they would be a less alien concept. If we used referendums more, of course, they would be a less alien concept.

]]> By: Laurence Boyce http://www.libdemvoice.org/ming-says-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-%e2%80%9cnot-necessary%e2%80%9d-1312.html#comment-29509 Laurence Boyce Wed, 12 Sep 2007 21:24:08 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/ming-says-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-%e2%80%9cnot-necessary%e2%80%9d-1312.html#comment-29509 Not at all. There's no need to master the minutiae of government in order to cast one's vote at a general election. Basically you just need to have been following the news a bit, and have formed a rough view about who you like and who you don't like. The system is quite deliberately fuzzy and works reasonably well. But a referendum on the EU treaty suddenly brings everything dramatically and dangerously into focus. How many pages is this bloody treaty? If it's more than three, I'm not going to read it. If there is to be any referendum on Europe, then it should be on the fundamental question: in or out? Not at all. There’s no need to master the minutiae of government in order to cast one’s vote at a general election. Basically you just need to have been following the news a bit, and have formed a rough view about who you like and who you don’t like. The system is quite deliberately fuzzy and works reasonably well.

But a referendum on the EU treaty suddenly brings everything dramatically and dangerously into focus. How many pages is this bloody treaty? If it’s more than three, I’m not going to read it. If there is to be any referendum on Europe, then it should be on the fundamental question: in or out?

]]> By: Stephen Tall http://www.libdemvoice.org/ming-says-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-%e2%80%9cnot-necessary%e2%80%9d-1312.html#comment-29506 Stephen Tall Wed, 12 Sep 2007 21:12:40 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/ming-says-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-%e2%80%9cnot-necessary%e2%80%9d-1312.html#comment-29506 Following the logic, Laurence, we probably shouldn't be asked our views about how the country should be run, either. Following the logic, Laurence, we probably shouldn’t be asked our views about how the country should be run, either.

]]> By: Laurence Boyce http://www.libdemvoice.org/ming-says-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-%e2%80%9cnot-necessary%e2%80%9d-1312.html#comment-29504 Laurence Boyce Wed, 12 Sep 2007 20:58:56 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/ming-says-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-%e2%80%9cnot-necessary%e2%80%9d-1312.html#comment-29504 There is absolutely no point in asking for our views on a complex document which nobody can understand. There is absolutely no point in asking for our views on a complex document which nobody can understand.

]]> By: Alex Wilcock http://www.libdemvoice.org/ming-says-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-%e2%80%9cnot-necessary%e2%80%9d-1312.html#comment-29492 Alex Wilcock Wed, 12 Sep 2007 18:19:32 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/ming-says-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-%e2%80%9cnot-necessary%e2%80%9d-1312.html#comment-29492 It’s a shame Ming picked today to write about climate change on here, as his unilateral decision – never a wise one for a leader – to change party policy is going to mean no-one on here pays it any attention. And it makes certain no-one in the media will notice what he has to say on an issue far more important than a pile of Eurocratic tidying-up. Sigh. Strategically, then, he’s wrong. But that would matter less if he was right on the principle. For months, we’ve argued that we should make up our mind when the final details are ready. A lot of us whose instincts are to let the people decide were happy with that – a constitution is a constitution; a treaty might just be a bore. Now Ming’s jumped the gun, that means none of the rest of us can do the sensible thing and wait and see either. Will it shut up his MPs who’ve been calling for a referendum? I don’t know. But it’s an invitation for all the rest of us just to tell him he’s got it wrong, and can’t he do without that? Back in 1991, we said we’d let the people decide on a written constitution. Back in 1992, we said the Maastricht Treaty was a major constitutional change, and so the people should decide. We’ve stuck to that ever since. By announcing he wants that overturned, Ming has got it badly wrong. It’s a shame Ming picked today to write about climate change on here, as his unilateral decision – never a wise one for a leader – to change party policy is going to mean no-one on here pays it any attention. And it makes certain no-one in the media will notice what he has to say on an issue far more important than a pile of Eurocratic tidying-up. Sigh.

Strategically, then, he’s wrong. But that would matter less if he was right on the principle. For months, we’ve argued that we should make up our mind when the final details are ready. A lot of us whose instincts are to let the people decide were happy with that – a constitution is a constitution; a treaty might just be a bore. Now Ming’s jumped the gun, that means none of the rest of us can do the sensible thing and wait and see either. Will it shut up his MPs who’ve been calling for a referendum? I don’t know. But it’s an invitation for all the rest of us just to tell him he’s got it wrong, and can’t he do without that?

Back in 1991, we said we’d let the people decide on a written constitution. Back in 1992, we said the Maastricht Treaty was a major constitutional change, and so the people should decide. We’ve stuck to that ever since. By announcing he wants that overturned, Ming has got it badly wrong.

]]> By: tony hill http://www.libdemvoice.org/ming-says-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-%e2%80%9cnot-necessary%e2%80%9d-1312.html#comment-29484 tony hill Wed, 12 Sep 2007 16:49:54 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/ming-says-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-%e2%80%9cnot-necessary%e2%80%9d-1312.html#comment-29484 Not being as active in the party as I used to be I don't know whether Liberal Democrats are as fascinated with Constitutions as was the case with Liberals. It was almost de rigeur in the Liberal Party to be able to write a constitution at the drop of a hat, and there might then be a debate about amendments which would quicken the hearts of the cognoscenti at an EGM. Is it being elitist or anti-democratic to suggest that perhaps the general public would find such discussions irrelevant and tedious, and that debate on the European 'Treaty' would simply resolve into the question of 'Europe: In or Out?' I think that we have been populist in the past over calling for a referendum on issues which are essentially far too complex to be capable of a sensible resolution into a yes/no answer. If you disagree, ask yourself: am I really going to plough my way through the Treaty making lists of things I like and dislike about it, and at the end of that process take a balanced view of which way to vote? I know that I'm not going to. Not being as active in the party as I used to be I don’t know whether Liberal Democrats are as fascinated with Constitutions as was the case with Liberals. It was almost de rigeur in the Liberal Party to be able to write a constitution at the drop of a hat, and there might then be a debate about amendments which would quicken the hearts of the cognoscenti at an EGM. Is it being elitist or anti-democratic to suggest that perhaps the general public would find such discussions irrelevant and tedious, and that debate on the European ‘Treaty’ would simply resolve into the question of ‘Europe: In or Out?’ I think that we have been populist in the past over calling for a referendum on issues which are essentially far too complex to be capable of a sensible resolution into a yes/no answer. If you disagree, ask yourself: am I really going to plough my way through the Treaty making lists of things I like and dislike about it, and at the end of that process take a balanced view of which way to vote? I know that I’m not going to.

]]> By: Stephen Tall http://www.libdemvoice.org/ming-says-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-%e2%80%9cnot-necessary%e2%80%9d-1312.html#comment-29482 Stephen Tall Wed, 12 Sep 2007 16:14:23 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/ming-says-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-%e2%80%9cnot-necessary%e2%80%9d-1312.html#comment-29482 <b>7/8 - Editor's note</b>: If this Gordon with the e-mail address he's given is a Liberal Democrat, then I'm a banana. If he is truly a Lib Dem, can I respectfully ask him not to use those kind of insults. More generally, can I remind Tory trolls that they are most welcome to comment on this site, but not by pretending to be Lib Dems. 7/8 – Editor’s note: If this Gordon with the e-mail address he’s given is a Liberal Democrat, then I’m a banana.

If he is truly a Lib Dem, can I respectfully ask him not to use those kind of insults.

More generally, can I remind Tory trolls that they are most welcome to comment on this site, but not by pretending to be Lib Dems.

]]> By: Ralph http://www.libdemvoice.org/ming-says-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-%e2%80%9cnot-necessary%e2%80%9d-1312.html#comment-29477 Ralph Wed, 12 Sep 2007 15:34:17 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/ming-says-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-%e2%80%9cnot-necessary%e2%80%9d-1312.html#comment-29477 Another leader whose party promised a referendum at the last election now denies the British people what they clearly want. I would suggest you get a new leader but I'm not a Lib Dem. Another leader whose party promised a referendum at the last election now denies the British people what they clearly want.

I would suggest you get a new leader but I’m not a Lib Dem.

]]> By: Eldoc http://www.libdemvoice.org/ming-says-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-%e2%80%9cnot-necessary%e2%80%9d-1312.html#comment-29473 Eldoc Wed, 12 Sep 2007 14:42:58 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/ming-says-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-%e2%80%9cnot-necessary%e2%80%9d-1312.html#comment-29473 Bit strange to assume, Jeremy, that just because one doesn't give a full name it means one can't be a Liberal Democrat. And as for giving a website link... well, I don't have a website! Does that make me a Tory? Bit strange to assume, Jeremy, that just because one doesn’t give a full name it means one can’t be a Liberal Democrat.

And as for giving a website link… well, I don’t have a website! Does that make me a Tory?

]]> By: Geoffrey Payne http://www.libdemvoice.org/ming-says-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-%e2%80%9cnot-necessary%e2%80%9d-1312.html#comment-29460 Geoffrey Payne Wed, 12 Sep 2007 12:01:07 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/ming-says-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-%e2%80%9cnot-necessary%e2%80%9d-1312.html#comment-29460 I did not notice there was a poll on LDV, and in any case I am undecided. Undecided that it is until I have heard the debate at Lib Dem conference. I suspect that applies to a lot of people in the party. Like most Lib Dems I am pro-European and I can usually trust the instincts of the party leadership. I think a debate is very much needed at the moment. More fundamentally we need to sort out as a party in a general sense when we support referenda and when not. I did not notice there was a poll on LDV, and in any case I am undecided. Undecided that it is until I have heard the debate at Lib Dem conference. I suspect that applies to a lot of people in the party.
Like most Lib Dems I am pro-European and I can usually trust the instincts of the party leadership.
I think a debate is very much needed at the moment.
More fundamentally we need to sort out as a party in a general sense when we support referenda and when not.

]]> By: Neil Bradbury http://www.libdemvoice.org/ming-says-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-%e2%80%9cnot-necessary%e2%80%9d-1312.html#comment-29454 Neil Bradbury Wed, 12 Sep 2007 11:37:54 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/ming-says-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-%e2%80%9cnot-necessary%e2%80%9d-1312.html#comment-29454 Excellent decision Ming - how representative of public opinion (on the question actually asked) are referenda anyway? Most of my friends who are pro-referendum have never read the constitution and just hate foreigners because thats what the Mail tells them to do. Mings non populist approach is warming on me we want more prinicpled opinions not just people thinking because we are democrats we should have a vote on everything the right wing press want to vote on! Excellent decision Ming – how representative of public opinion (on the question actually asked) are referenda anyway? Most of my friends who are pro-referendum have never read the constitution and just hate foreigners because thats what the Mail tells them to do. Mings non populist approach is warming on me we want more prinicpled opinions not just people thinking because we are democrats we should have a vote on everything the right wing press want to vote on!

]]> By: Jeremy Hargreaves http://www.libdemvoice.org/ming-says-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-%e2%80%9cnot-necessary%e2%80%9d-1312.html#comment-29448 Jeremy Hargreaves Wed, 12 Sep 2007 11:02:02 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/ming-says-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-%e2%80%9cnot-necessary%e2%80%9d-1312.html#comment-29448 Gordon - well if you really are then my apologies, but I note you are still not willing to give your full name which would seem to me to be a normal thing for someone who is what you claim to be, to do. Also just to clarify I was certainly not casting aspersions on Gavin Whenman whose comment crossed with mine. He is certainly a proper LD - you can tell because he has given us his full name and a link to his website! Gordon – well if you really are then my apologies, but I note you are still not willing to give your full name which would seem to me to be a normal thing for someone who is what you claim to be, to do.

Also just to clarify I was certainly not casting aspersions on Gavin Whenman whose comment crossed with mine. He is certainly a proper LD – you can tell because he has given us his full name and a link to his website!

]]> By: Gordon http://www.libdemvoice.org/ming-says-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-%e2%80%9cnot-necessary%e2%80%9d-1312.html#comment-29446 Gordon Wed, 12 Sep 2007 10:51:38 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/ming-says-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-%e2%80%9cnot-necessary%e2%80%9d-1312.html#comment-29446 Screw you Jeremy. I'm a Liberal Democrat. <em> <b>Editor's comment</b>: <a href="http://www.libdemvoice.org/ming-says-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-%e2%80%9cnot-necessary%e2%80%9d-1312.html#comment-29482" rel="nofollow">please note</a>.</em> Screw you Jeremy. I’m a Liberal Democrat.

Editor’s comment: please note.

]]> By: Jeremy Hargreaves http://www.libdemvoice.org/ming-says-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-%e2%80%9cnot-necessary%e2%80%9d-1312.html#comment-29445 Jeremy Hargreaves Wed, 12 Sep 2007 10:47:58 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/ming-says-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-%e2%80%9cnot-necessary%e2%80%9d-1312.html#comment-29445 ...and welcome to all the members of other parties who have given just a first name and no link, in commenting here (I especially like the irony of one calling himself 'Gordon'!). At least we know who Chris Paul is! (a Labour activist). I've been around long enough to remember the days when the other parties didn't bother attacking us! Incidentally I have heard (although cannot confirm) that although David Heath was reported as having supported this call, he did not in fact do so. …and welcome to all the members of other parties who have given just a first name and no link, in commenting here (I especially like the irony of one calling himself ‘Gordon’!). At least we know who Chris Paul is! (a Labour activist). I’ve been around long enough to remember the days when the other parties didn’t bother attacking us!

Incidentally I have heard (although cannot confirm) that although David Heath was reported as having supported this call, he did not in fact do so.

]]>