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	<title>Comments on: Nick Clegg: “Time to take on the supermarket Trolleygarchs”</title>
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	<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/nick-clegg-time-to-take-on-the-supermarkets-2201.html</link>
	<description>Our place to talk - an independent website for supporters of the Liberal Democrat party in the UK.</description>
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		<title>By: Geoffrey Payne</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/nick-clegg-time-to-take-on-the-supermarkets-2201.html#comment-40724</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoffrey Payne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Feb 2008 22:14:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/nick-clegg-time-to-take-on-the-supermarkets-2201.html#comment-40724</guid>
		<description>I was about to write an article against &quot;supermarket liberalism&quot; after Jeremy Browne&#039;s speech at the Lib Dem policy forum in London recently.
To my surprise, Nick Clegg got there first!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was about to write an article against &#8220;supermarket liberalism&#8221; after Jeremy Browne&#8217;s speech at the Lib Dem policy forum in London recently.<br />
To my surprise, Nick Clegg got there first!</p>
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		<title>By: Geoffrey Payne</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/nick-clegg-time-to-take-on-the-supermarkets-2201.html#comment-40723</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoffrey Payne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Feb 2008 22:11:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/nick-clegg-time-to-take-on-the-supermarkets-2201.html#comment-40723</guid>
		<description>I very much welcome much of what Nick Clegg says in his speech, although I do find one thing rather odd about it. The big picture is presented as the Lib Dems supporting the free market, but much of the content is critical of it.
Some market failures come at a very high price as Northern Rock has shown recently. It is about time we toned down the free market rhetoric. Perfect free markets do not and cannot exist in the real world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I very much welcome much of what Nick Clegg says in his speech, although I do find one thing rather odd about it. The big picture is presented as the Lib Dems supporting the free market, but much of the content is critical of it.<br />
Some market failures come at a very high price as Northern Rock has shown recently. It is about time we toned down the free market rhetoric. Perfect free markets do not and cannot exist in the real world.</p>
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		<title>By: tony hill</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/nick-clegg-time-to-take-on-the-supermarkets-2201.html#comment-40719</link>
		<dc:creator>tony hill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Feb 2008 18:57:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/nick-clegg-time-to-take-on-the-supermarkets-2201.html#comment-40719</guid>
		<description>For some reason the number prefixing responses isn&#039;t showing up on my computer any more, but replying to Tristan Mills:  as I respect the seriousness of your comments without necessarily agreeing with you I would be interested to hear an elaboration of your point that monopolies cannot charge monopoly prices because this makes no sense to me.  The supermarkets are not, I would suggest, a prime exemplar of government cronyism, but rather an illustration of what happens when a few companies become so powerful that they can use their economic muscle to determine the structure and shape of the market in which they operate.  They do this in a quasi-competitive way, and at the same time have covert anti-competitive agreements in some areas.  All of these aspects are acting against the interests of the consumer and primary suppliers.  How less government regulation would rectify the situation baffles me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For some reason the number prefixing responses isn&#8217;t showing up on my computer any more, but replying to Tristan Mills:  as I respect the seriousness of your comments without necessarily agreeing with you I would be interested to hear an elaboration of your point that monopolies cannot charge monopoly prices because this makes no sense to me.  The supermarkets are not, I would suggest, a prime exemplar of government cronyism, but rather an illustration of what happens when a few companies become so powerful that they can use their economic muscle to determine the structure and shape of the market in which they operate.  They do this in a quasi-competitive way, and at the same time have covert anti-competitive agreements in some areas.  All of these aspects are acting against the interests of the consumer and primary suppliers.  How less government regulation would rectify the situation baffles me.</p>
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		<title>By: Edis</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/nick-clegg-time-to-take-on-the-supermarkets-2201.html#comment-40718</link>
		<dc:creator>Edis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Feb 2008 18:54:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/nick-clegg-time-to-take-on-the-supermarkets-2201.html#comment-40718</guid>
		<description>Tristan, your comments on monopoly are grounded in classic theory which has a long and distinguished history. It is however under challenge from 21st century economic models applying nonliner dynamic concepts. One consequence of these is that increasing returns to scale are possible in a self-reinforcing process. A monopoly might well be the most &#039;efficent market structure&#039; in terms of coping with all comers. This means that monopolies can be established that do not experience the self-regulating damping down assumed in the linear equilibrium models of textbook economics. A process rather similar to the care and feeding of a cancer, to use a sombre simile. Whether that is a good thing overall may depend on the point of view - from inside the cancer may be more enjoyable than from outside.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tristan, your comments on monopoly are grounded in classic theory which has a long and distinguished history. It is however under challenge from 21st century economic models applying nonliner dynamic concepts. One consequence of these is that increasing returns to scale are possible in a self-reinforcing process. A monopoly might well be the most &#8216;efficent market structure&#8217; in terms of coping with all comers. This means that monopolies can be established that do not experience the self-regulating damping down assumed in the linear equilibrium models of textbook economics. A process rather similar to the care and feeding of a cancer, to use a sombre simile. Whether that is a good thing overall may depend on the point of view &#8211; from inside the cancer may be more enjoyable than from outside.</p>
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		<title>By: Tristan Mills</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/nick-clegg-time-to-take-on-the-supermarkets-2201.html#comment-40679</link>
		<dc:creator>Tristan Mills</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Feb 2008 12:08:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/nick-clegg-time-to-take-on-the-supermarkets-2201.html#comment-40679</guid>
		<description>Edis:

Well, since a free market is one in which there is no government interference in the market except to preserve property rights then yes, there is in theory - in practice due to massive government intervention in the economy such a thing does not exist. Surely though, the answer is not to regulate more, but to deregulate?

Those who claim that capitalism inevitably tends towards monopoly:

In a free market this is not the case, or at least monopolies cannot charge monopoly prices.

In the crony capitalism which we have in which government favour and dis-favour has massive effects on business then yes, it will happen, but that&#039;s not a consequence of free market capitalism but of the corporatist political capitalism we have.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Edis:</p>
<p>Well, since a free market is one in which there is no government interference in the market except to preserve property rights then yes, there is in theory &#8211; in practice due to massive government intervention in the economy such a thing does not exist. Surely though, the answer is not to regulate more, but to deregulate?</p>
<p>Those who claim that capitalism inevitably tends towards monopoly:</p>
<p>In a free market this is not the case, or at least monopolies cannot charge monopoly prices.</p>
<p>In the crony capitalism which we have in which government favour and dis-favour has massive effects on business then yes, it will happen, but that&#8217;s not a consequence of free market capitalism but of the corporatist political capitalism we have.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Duffield</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/nick-clegg-time-to-take-on-the-supermarkets-2201.html#comment-40644</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Duffield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Feb 2008 22:02:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/nick-clegg-time-to-take-on-the-supermarkets-2201.html#comment-40644</guid>
		<description>This would have been a good opportunity for Nick to have mentioned our excellent, distinctive and long standing policy for charging supermarkets a business rate based on the full development value of their vast car-parks and speculative land holdings. The additional revenue raised from these (and all other undeveloped, under-utilised or derelict commercial sites) would allow rates for local businesses to be reduced accordingly - lowering commercial rents as well in the process - so levelling the market place and allowing free competition (with greater price parity) to flourish in a fair, sustainable and non-interventionist way. 

Perhaps he&#039;ll remember next time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This would have been a good opportunity for Nick to have mentioned our excellent, distinctive and long standing policy for charging supermarkets a business rate based on the full development value of their vast car-parks and speculative land holdings. The additional revenue raised from these (and all other undeveloped, under-utilised or derelict commercial sites) would allow rates for local businesses to be reduced accordingly &#8211; lowering commercial rents as well in the process &#8211; so levelling the market place and allowing free competition (with greater price parity) to flourish in a fair, sustainable and non-interventionist way. </p>
<p>Perhaps he&#8217;ll remember next time.</p>
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		<title>By: asquith</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/nick-clegg-time-to-take-on-the-supermarkets-2201.html#comment-40637</link>
		<dc:creator>asquith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Feb 2008 20:58:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/nick-clegg-time-to-take-on-the-supermarkets-2201.html#comment-40637</guid>
		<description>In my humble opinion, we need more votes and seats than in &#039;05. I just hope enough people see through Dave from PR in time. Look, I won&#039;t like to you, I want a LibDem government. I&#039;m sick and tired of being sneered at by the Tories. I want the whole of Liberal England to come back. 

This time 100 years ago, I, Asquith, was in charge! :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In my humble opinion, we need more votes and seats than in &#8217;05. I just hope enough people see through Dave from PR in time. Look, I won&#8217;t like to you, I want a LibDem government. I&#8217;m sick and tired of being sneered at by the Tories. I want the whole of Liberal England to come back. </p>
<p>This time 100 years ago, I, Asquith, was in charge! <img src='http://www.libdemvoice.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: ApRhys</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/nick-clegg-time-to-take-on-the-supermarkets-2201.html#comment-40636</link>
		<dc:creator>ApRhys</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Feb 2008 20:46:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/nick-clegg-time-to-take-on-the-supermarkets-2201.html#comment-40636</guid>
		<description>Good to see another decent poll rating for the Libdems in tomorrows guardian ICM poll -21%</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good to see another decent poll rating for the Libdems in tomorrows guardian ICM poll -21%</p>
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		<title>By: asquith</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/nick-clegg-time-to-take-on-the-supermarkets-2201.html#comment-40624</link>
		<dc:creator>asquith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Feb 2008 19:16:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/nick-clegg-time-to-take-on-the-supermarkets-2201.html#comment-40624</guid>
		<description>I agree with Tony Hill.

A market dominated by cartels is not free. A truly free market requires a degree of state regulation. Basically to set the rules, prevent unfair competition, deception of the public and enforce a standard of quality. After that the state should back down, yes. But not before. 

Yet again, Clegg has scored over Dave from PR.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Tony Hill.</p>
<p>A market dominated by cartels is not free. A truly free market requires a degree of state regulation. Basically to set the rules, prevent unfair competition, deception of the public and enforce a standard of quality. After that the state should back down, yes. But not before. </p>
<p>Yet again, Clegg has scored over Dave from PR.</p>
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		<title>By: tony hill</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/nick-clegg-time-to-take-on-the-supermarkets-2201.html#comment-40623</link>
		<dc:creator>tony hill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Feb 2008 18:46:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/nick-clegg-time-to-take-on-the-supermarkets-2201.html#comment-40623</guid>
		<description>There is no conflict between liberal democracy and a need to police the &#039;free&#039; market.  One of the Liberal Party&#039;s cornerstone economic policies was always a Monopolies and Merger Commission with real teeth because the Party recognised the tendency towards monopoly in advanced capitalist society had to be countered, and how right we were as the food retailing sector shows.  To those for whom the market can do no wrong and who believe that any interference in its operation is illiberal I suggest that they should consider how much economic freedom there is in a situation of monopoly capitalism</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is no conflict between liberal democracy and a need to police the &#8216;free&#8217; market.  One of the Liberal Party&#8217;s cornerstone economic policies was always a Monopolies and Merger Commission with real teeth because the Party recognised the tendency towards monopoly in advanced capitalist society had to be countered, and how right we were as the food retailing sector shows.  To those for whom the market can do no wrong and who believe that any interference in its operation is illiberal I suggest that they should consider how much economic freedom there is in a situation of monopoly capitalism</p>
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		<title>By: Gordon</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/nick-clegg-time-to-take-on-the-supermarkets-2201.html#comment-40616</link>
		<dc:creator>Gordon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Feb 2008 16:58:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/nick-clegg-time-to-take-on-the-supermarkets-2201.html#comment-40616</guid>
		<description>Three cheers to Nick for challenging the ‘trolleygarchs’.  There is abundant evidence of their serial abuse of their market power and any party that aspires to greater fairness cannot neglect this.

However, these abuses need to be tackled directly and made illegal; just creating yet another regulator in the form of a Food Trade Inspector is likely to be as useful as a straw hat in a hurricane.  The Supermarkets are past masters at neutering regulators (including the Competition Commission itself to name but one).

Nor do I think that farmers’ markets and the like are the answer.  Not that I’ve anything against them as such and they certainly have their place but the job of farmers is … well farming - not retailing.  It is not unreasonable to expect that there should be a retail sector that does that job without grabbing ALL the profit from the entire supply chain.

There are many things that could be done but that would be beyond the scope of this comment – suffice to say that where there is a political will there is a way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Three cheers to Nick for challenging the ‘trolleygarchs’.  There is abundant evidence of their serial abuse of their market power and any party that aspires to greater fairness cannot neglect this.</p>
<p>However, these abuses need to be tackled directly and made illegal; just creating yet another regulator in the form of a Food Trade Inspector is likely to be as useful as a straw hat in a hurricane.  The Supermarkets are past masters at neutering regulators (including the Competition Commission itself to name but one).</p>
<p>Nor do I think that farmers’ markets and the like are the answer.  Not that I’ve anything against them as such and they certainly have their place but the job of farmers is … well farming &#8211; not retailing.  It is not unreasonable to expect that there should be a retail sector that does that job without grabbing ALL the profit from the entire supply chain.</p>
<p>There are many things that could be done but that would be beyond the scope of this comment – suffice to say that where there is a political will there is a way.</p>
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		<title>By: Edis</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/nick-clegg-time-to-take-on-the-supermarkets-2201.html#comment-40587</link>
		<dc:creator>Edis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Feb 2008 11:41:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/nick-clegg-time-to-take-on-the-supermarkets-2201.html#comment-40587</guid>
		<description>Tristan, outside slightly old-fashioned A-level economics textbooks, is there such a thing as the open market farm-gate price any more? This is a serious question – I think the answer is ‘no’ but I am still investigating and welcome evidence one way or another. 

I believe that, increasingly, farmers are contracted suppliers to one or other major retailer and do not have realistic market opportunities to sell to other wholesale or retail customers. If so this is one thing that needs to be tackled –if only by making the situation crystal clear to everybody including consumers and purist free-market commentators.

Yes farmers markets are fighting back and a good thing too, as this may help recreate some genuine markets in foods. 

Note that this is a situation we the consumers have in part asked for. When we insist on proving provenance for produce – to guarantee for example that apples are grown without excessive pesticide use – we place a burden on our retail shops to establish an audit chain for the produce from grower to shop shelf. That cannot easily be done in an open farm-gate market structure still less in a major wholesale market structure. (Such as Smithfield for meat). These audit chains are costly so the incentive is to deal with few suppliers (closely contracted) who can be monitored efficiently rather than depending on many suppliers. 

The power of purchasers means that farms are in exactly the opposite situation to a futures market where producers could trade off risks in return for stable returns. They are in a just-in time market situation where their customers have the right to change the returns farmers get from current production investment right at the last minute. 

More general point – in asking for support for rural infrastructure (post offices and all) Nick is calling for substantial subsidies for rural areas which will be paid for by urban people unless the subsidy results in reductions in other costs that offset this. It may be helpful to have clarity and honesty on this matter if only to ourselves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tristan, outside slightly old-fashioned A-level economics textbooks, is there such a thing as the open market farm-gate price any more? This is a serious question – I think the answer is ‘no’ but I am still investigating and welcome evidence one way or another. </p>
<p>I believe that, increasingly, farmers are contracted suppliers to one or other major retailer and do not have realistic market opportunities to sell to other wholesale or retail customers. If so this is one thing that needs to be tackled –if only by making the situation crystal clear to everybody including consumers and purist free-market commentators.</p>
<p>Yes farmers markets are fighting back and a good thing too, as this may help recreate some genuine markets in foods. </p>
<p>Note that this is a situation we the consumers have in part asked for. When we insist on proving provenance for produce – to guarantee for example that apples are grown without excessive pesticide use – we place a burden on our retail shops to establish an audit chain for the produce from grower to shop shelf. That cannot easily be done in an open farm-gate market structure still less in a major wholesale market structure. (Such as Smithfield for meat). These audit chains are costly so the incentive is to deal with few suppliers (closely contracted) who can be monitored efficiently rather than depending on many suppliers. </p>
<p>The power of purchasers means that farms are in exactly the opposite situation to a futures market where producers could trade off risks in return for stable returns. They are in a just-in time market situation where their customers have the right to change the returns farmers get from current production investment right at the last minute. </p>
<p>More general point – in asking for support for rural infrastructure (post offices and all) Nick is calling for substantial subsidies for rural areas which will be paid for by urban people unless the subsidy results in reductions in other costs that offset this. It may be helpful to have clarity and honesty on this matter if only to ourselves.</p>
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		<title>By: Bishop Hill</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/nick-clegg-time-to-take-on-the-supermarkets-2201.html#comment-40569</link>
		<dc:creator>Bishop Hill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Feb 2008 09:35:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/nick-clegg-time-to-take-on-the-supermarkets-2201.html#comment-40569</guid>
		<description>Very amusing to see a speech, in which NC claims to be a liberal and in favour of market pricing, (ahem) liberally interspersed with calls for government support and action. 

The supermarkets only have power over the farmers because there are too many farms - they are being subsidised to stay in business. 

NC&#039;s recognition of the problems of subsidies and barriers is good. Some discussion of how he intends to change EU policy on this is would have been a lot more honest though. In reality he must know that he can&#039;t change it, and the EU is unlikely to change of its own accord any time soon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very amusing to see a speech, in which NC claims to be a liberal and in favour of market pricing, (ahem) liberally interspersed with calls for government support and action. </p>
<p>The supermarkets only have power over the farmers because there are too many farms &#8211; they are being subsidised to stay in business. </p>
<p>NC&#8217;s recognition of the problems of subsidies and barriers is good. Some discussion of how he intends to change EU policy on this is would have been a lot more honest though. In reality he must know that he can&#8217;t change it, and the EU is unlikely to change of its own accord any time soon.</p>
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		<title>By: Tristan Mills</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/nick-clegg-time-to-take-on-the-supermarkets-2201.html#comment-40554</link>
		<dc:creator>Tristan Mills</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Feb 2008 08:42:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/nick-clegg-time-to-take-on-the-supermarkets-2201.html#comment-40554</guid>
		<description>Surely more competition between supermarkets would lead to closeer to market prices for farmers? Reducing the chances of a cartel. Either they&#039;d need to increase farm gate prices to get the produce or reduce their prices to attract customers.
I do detect a certain amount of playing to the crowd though.

I&#039;m very very glad he&#039;s firm on protectionism and I like that he&#039;s telling farmers to experiment in their marketing and what they produce. As society gets even more prosperous people have more to spend on what can be seen as luxury produce- British farmers should be exploiting this as much as they can.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Surely more competition between supermarkets would lead to closeer to market prices for farmers? Reducing the chances of a cartel. Either they&#8217;d need to increase farm gate prices to get the produce or reduce their prices to attract customers.<br />
I do detect a certain amount of playing to the crowd though.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m very very glad he&#8217;s firm on protectionism and I like that he&#8217;s telling farmers to experiment in their marketing and what they produce. As society gets even more prosperous people have more to spend on what can be seen as luxury produce- British farmers should be exploiting this as much as they can.</p>
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