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	<title>Comments on: Official: Vote Green, Get Brown</title>
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		<title>By: Arthur</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/official-vote-green-get-brown-2435.html#comment-47398</link>
		<dc:creator>Arthur</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 22:59:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/official-vote-green-get-brown-2435.html#comment-47398</guid>
		<description>I dunno, I was pleased to vote Brian 1 Boris 2. THere&#039;s been too much obsession witht he environment and not enough on security and crime. Let the Greens and Red Ken get their knickers in a twist abot climate change and we&#039;ll be the ones working with the Tories to get policing right and fix the economy come the next general election.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I dunno, I was pleased to vote Brian 1 Boris 2. THere&#8217;s been too much obsession witht he environment and not enough on security and crime. Let the Greens and Red Ken get their knickers in a twist abot climate change and we&#8217;ll be the ones working with the Tories to get policing right and fix the economy come the next general election.</p>
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		<title>By: Oranjepan</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/official-vote-green-get-brown-2435.html#comment-44684</link>
		<dc:creator>Oranjepan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 20:41:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/official-vote-green-get-brown-2435.html#comment-44684</guid>
		<description>Do the atrocious air conditions in central London stem from vehicles emitting high levels of pollution in that part of the capital, or is the fact that it is more noticable there just the combined result of accumulated concentrations of pollution?

Anyone who lives near major arterial routes, the north and south cirulars or any of the nation&#039;s motorways will recognise the pollution that has a huge detrimental impact on their lives will be completely unaffected by the imposition of a single (if staged) LEZ. 

In other words the general reduction of pollution resulting from an LEZ is trivial in comparison to the scale of the real problem (3% in LEZ areas, I hear you say!), and by tackling it piecemeal in this fashion not only fails to address the real issue, but may also hinder any prospect of tackling the wider problem.

Instead of taking unilateral action for limited groups of people, the politicians ought to engage in concerted multilateral decisions that work with neighbouring authorities outside the capital in order to force the hand of government. Despite holding the positions of power at multiple levels Labour has conspicuously failed to indulge in any sort of joined-up thinking.

The LEZ policy is more about image than substance - it is worthy, but is still a mere sop to the environmental lobby for the clear political aim of appealing to &#039;green&#039; voters. This is policy tourism of the worst sort.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do the atrocious air conditions in central London stem from vehicles emitting high levels of pollution in that part of the capital, or is the fact that it is more noticable there just the combined result of accumulated concentrations of pollution?</p>
<p>Anyone who lives near major arterial routes, the north and south cirulars or any of the nation&#8217;s motorways will recognise the pollution that has a huge detrimental impact on their lives will be completely unaffected by the imposition of a single (if staged) LEZ. </p>
<p>In other words the general reduction of pollution resulting from an LEZ is trivial in comparison to the scale of the real problem (3% in LEZ areas, I hear you say!), and by tackling it piecemeal in this fashion not only fails to address the real issue, but may also hinder any prospect of tackling the wider problem.</p>
<p>Instead of taking unilateral action for limited groups of people, the politicians ought to engage in concerted multilateral decisions that work with neighbouring authorities outside the capital in order to force the hand of government. Despite holding the positions of power at multiple levels Labour has conspicuously failed to indulge in any sort of joined-up thinking.</p>
<p>The LEZ policy is more about image than substance &#8211; it is worthy, but is still a mere sop to the environmental lobby for the clear political aim of appealing to &#8216;green&#8217; voters. This is policy tourism of the worst sort.</p>
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		<title>By: Alix</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/official-vote-green-get-brown-2435.html#comment-44609</link>
		<dc:creator>Alix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 09:19:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/official-vote-green-get-brown-2435.html#comment-44609</guid>
		<description>&quot;along with other policies&quot; 

This is key. TfL&#039;s own figures suggest that the LEZ by itself will improve air quality in Greater London by less than 3%. This is a figure from an internal Lib Dem doc, but I&#039;ve emailed the author for the back-up reference. I have a feeling it will be somewhere in this doc - possibly the aggregate of the figures on p112. If I am reading this table correctly, the baselines of emissions for each year reflect expected emissions based on behaviour change and other policies, and the green lines below then indicate the added effect of the LEZ. They are vanishingly small.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/roadusers/lez/LEZ/LEZ_Environmental_Report_November_2006.pdf

Given the fiddly, expensive nature of the implementation for such a tiny gain why not therefore ditch it and just keep the things that DO make up most of that effect?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;along with other policies&#8221; </p>
<p>This is key. TfL&#8217;s own figures suggest that the LEZ by itself will improve air quality in Greater London by less than 3%. This is a figure from an internal Lib Dem doc, but I&#8217;ve emailed the author for the back-up reference. I have a feeling it will be somewhere in this doc &#8211; possibly the aggregate of the figures on p112. If I am reading this table correctly, the baselines of emissions for each year reflect expected emissions based on behaviour change and other policies, and the green lines below then indicate the added effect of the LEZ. They are vanishingly small.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/roadusers/lez/LEZ/LEZ_Environmental_Report_November_2006.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/roadusers/lez/LEZ/LEZ_Environmental_Report_November_2006.pdf</a></p>
<p>Given the fiddly, expensive nature of the implementation for such a tiny gain why not therefore ditch it and just keep the things that DO make up most of that effect?</p>
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		<title>By: greengirldavies</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/official-vote-green-get-brown-2435.html#comment-44593</link>
		<dc:creator>greengirldavies</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 06:26:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/official-vote-green-get-brown-2435.html#comment-44593</guid>
		<description>LEZ failed, Alix? What is your evidence?

The Low Emission Zone started in January this year, was delivered on time and on budget, and has delivered exactly what it set out to do in its first phase - stopping the most polluting lorries over 12 tonnes, buses and coaches coming into London and damaging Londoners air quality.

If Ken Livingstone or Sian Berry are elected as Mayor on 1 May, the zone will almost immediately be expanded to cover all lorries over 3.5 tonnes. 

In all this will mean over 55,000 of the most polluting vehicles on London&#039;s roads no longer clog up our lungs with their emissions.

TfL&#039;s estimate is that that the Low Emission Zone, along with other policies like the congestion charge, cleaner taxis, and moving to a hybrid bus fleet, will mean that by 2012 nearly one million Londoners will no longer live on streets with dangerous air pollution.

We obviously have a different definition of failure!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LEZ failed, Alix? What is your evidence?</p>
<p>The Low Emission Zone started in January this year, was delivered on time and on budget, and has delivered exactly what it set out to do in its first phase &#8211; stopping the most polluting lorries over 12 tonnes, buses and coaches coming into London and damaging Londoners air quality.</p>
<p>If Ken Livingstone or Sian Berry are elected as Mayor on 1 May, the zone will almost immediately be expanded to cover all lorries over 3.5 tonnes. </p>
<p>In all this will mean over 55,000 of the most polluting vehicles on London&#8217;s roads no longer clog up our lungs with their emissions.</p>
<p>TfL&#8217;s estimate is that that the Low Emission Zone, along with other policies like the congestion charge, cleaner taxis, and moving to a hybrid bus fleet, will mean that by 2012 nearly one million Londoners will no longer live on streets with dangerous air pollution.</p>
<p>We obviously have a different definition of failure!</p>
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		<title>By: Oranjepan</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/official-vote-green-get-brown-2435.html#comment-44542</link>
		<dc:creator>Oranjepan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 17:35:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/official-vote-green-get-brown-2435.html#comment-44542</guid>
		<description>You can&#039;t argue sensibly with people who are ideologically programmed against admitting they aren&#039;t 100% correct in all circumstances, even if hindsight provides a different answer.

I think it is funny that however much consensus there is over what is required, there is so much bickering over how to go about achieving it.

I also think it is dangerous to politicise issues of practical relevance out of partisan motives - nobody &#039;owns&#039; environmental issues, because it is something that we all share equally and all have a stake in looking after. 

To base a political movement on the exclusivity of intellectual means to address these shared concerns (as the Greens do) strikes me as unreservedly retrograde - it is scandalous that they can get away with painting themselves either as progressive or that they are interested in creating alliances rather than self-promotion and biased subversion to their own ends.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You can&#8217;t argue sensibly with people who are ideologically programmed against admitting they aren&#8217;t 100% correct in all circumstances, even if hindsight provides a different answer.</p>
<p>I think it is funny that however much consensus there is over what is required, there is so much bickering over how to go about achieving it.</p>
<p>I also think it is dangerous to politicise issues of practical relevance out of partisan motives &#8211; nobody &#8216;owns&#8217; environmental issues, because it is something that we all share equally and all have a stake in looking after. </p>
<p>To base a political movement on the exclusivity of intellectual means to address these shared concerns (as the Greens do) strikes me as unreservedly retrograde &#8211; it is scandalous that they can get away with painting themselves either as progressive or that they are interested in creating alliances rather than self-promotion and biased subversion to their own ends.</p>
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		<title>By: Alix</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/official-vote-green-get-brown-2435.html#comment-44515</link>
		<dc:creator>Alix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 15:01:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/official-vote-green-get-brown-2435.html#comment-44515</guid>
		<description>Greengirldavies/Geoffrey - erm, still don&#039;t get this, sorry. A quote from Friends of the Earth from before the LEZ came in saying that it&#039;s a good idea (which in principle it is) is NOT an argument for keeping it after it has been proven NOT TO WORK. What on earth is the point of hanging on to ineffective policies? Is it some sort of sop to the principle behind them? Because that is just pathetic and counterproductive to the results we all want.

Likewise, David George, just &lt;i&gt;think&lt;/i&gt; for a moment. The LEZ was a great idea. We all said it was a great idea, although we Greens and Lib Dems agreed it didn&#039;t go far enough. Then it was introduced last month and (I&#039;m getting tired of repeating this simple fact) it HASN&#039;T WORKED.

So (more repetition) we have two choices - either improve it till it does (and the Greens have just teamed up with the party who don&#039;t want it improved) or scrap it and go about the problem a different way.

And, as I&#039;ve said above:

The trouble with the whole *principle* of an LEZ is surely that it is, by its nature, a staggered system with exceptions and grades built into it. There are two problems with this:

1. From a liberal perspective, it’s very hard to argue why you’re targetting *exactly* these people and making them subject to *exactly* these laws. This is something the Greens don’t contend with, but it’s pretty fundamental to the liberal way of thinking. It’s not that one can’t do it - obviously, since our tax package is half based on green taxes as choice influencers. But it does mean that where there *is* an option, it should be explored. This being an important liberal objection, since the LEZ is patently ineffective, it seems more logical to scrap it and start again.

2. A related, but less ideological and more practical point: a system based around grading and exceptions is inevitably going to become encrusted with extra little rules over time that will open up loopholes and obscure the original purpose - like tax law. That, I believe, was the logic behind stepping back and reassessing what the LEZ was trying to do, and seeking an altogether different way to go about it.

Normally I&#039;d never dream of taking the piss with this much cut and pasting, but you lot are taking the piss with the total feebleness of your arguments, and no-one has provided anywhere near a convincing response to anything I&#039;ve said.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greengirldavies/Geoffrey &#8211; erm, still don&#8217;t get this, sorry. A quote from Friends of the Earth from before the LEZ came in saying that it&#8217;s a good idea (which in principle it is) is NOT an argument for keeping it after it has been proven NOT TO WORK. What on earth is the point of hanging on to ineffective policies? Is it some sort of sop to the principle behind them? Because that is just pathetic and counterproductive to the results we all want.</p>
<p>Likewise, David George, just <i>think</i> for a moment. The LEZ was a great idea. We all said it was a great idea, although we Greens and Lib Dems agreed it didn&#8217;t go far enough. Then it was introduced last month and (I&#8217;m getting tired of repeating this simple fact) it HASN&#8217;T WORKED.</p>
<p>So (more repetition) we have two choices &#8211; either improve it till it does (and the Greens have just teamed up with the party who don&#8217;t want it improved) or scrap it and go about the problem a different way.</p>
<p>And, as I&#8217;ve said above:</p>
<p>The trouble with the whole *principle* of an LEZ is surely that it is, by its nature, a staggered system with exceptions and grades built into it. There are two problems with this:</p>
<p>1. From a liberal perspective, it’s very hard to argue why you’re targetting *exactly* these people and making them subject to *exactly* these laws. This is something the Greens don’t contend with, but it’s pretty fundamental to the liberal way of thinking. It’s not that one can’t do it &#8211; obviously, since our tax package is half based on green taxes as choice influencers. But it does mean that where there *is* an option, it should be explored. This being an important liberal objection, since the LEZ is patently ineffective, it seems more logical to scrap it and start again.</p>
<p>2. A related, but less ideological and more practical point: a system based around grading and exceptions is inevitably going to become encrusted with extra little rules over time that will open up loopholes and obscure the original purpose &#8211; like tax law. That, I believe, was the logic behind stepping back and reassessing what the LEZ was trying to do, and seeking an altogether different way to go about it.</p>
<p>Normally I&#8217;d never dream of taking the piss with this much cut and pasting, but you lot are taking the piss with the total feebleness of your arguments, and no-one has provided anywhere near a convincing response to anything I&#8217;ve said.</p>
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		<title>By: DarrenJohnson</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/official-vote-green-get-brown-2435.html#comment-44463</link>
		<dc:creator>DarrenJohnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 22:18:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/official-vote-green-get-brown-2435.html#comment-44463</guid>
		<description>Livingstone&#039;s performance

I stand by the criticisms of Ken Livingstone I made in the 2004 campaign. I was extremely disappointed by his delivery on the environment, in particular. In the past 4 years, however, there has been a dramatic improvement across a whole range of areas at City Hall - Green Homes Service, cycling and walking budgets trebled, Climate Change Action Plan, abandonment of pro-airport expansion policies - much of this as a result of the co-operation between the Greens and the Mayor over the GLA budget. There is much, much, more to do and there are still key areas where we disagree and many areas where we still think the Mayor needs to be bolder. But I am prepared to give credit where credit is due and have no doubt that Livingstone is much more preferable than Boris Johnson.

I did not advocate a second preference vote for Livingstone in 2004 and actually left my second vote blank. But things are different in 2008. Firstly, as I said, Livingstone&#039;s performance on the green agenda has greatly improved. Secondly, Boris Johnson poses a much bigger threat to progressive politics in London than Steve Norris ever did, both because he stands much more chance of winning than Norris and because he is much more rightwing than Norris.

It will be a slightly odd feeling on May 1st, however, given that this will be the first time my &quot;X&quot; has gone anywhere near a Labour Party candidate (even as second preference!) since the 1984 Euro elections.

Darren Johnson - Green AM</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Livingstone&#8217;s performance</p>
<p>I stand by the criticisms of Ken Livingstone I made in the 2004 campaign. I was extremely disappointed by his delivery on the environment, in particular. In the past 4 years, however, there has been a dramatic improvement across a whole range of areas at City Hall &#8211; Green Homes Service, cycling and walking budgets trebled, Climate Change Action Plan, abandonment of pro-airport expansion policies &#8211; much of this as a result of the co-operation between the Greens and the Mayor over the GLA budget. There is much, much, more to do and there are still key areas where we disagree and many areas where we still think the Mayor needs to be bolder. But I am prepared to give credit where credit is due and have no doubt that Livingstone is much more preferable than Boris Johnson.</p>
<p>I did not advocate a second preference vote for Livingstone in 2004 and actually left my second vote blank. But things are different in 2008. Firstly, as I said, Livingstone&#8217;s performance on the green agenda has greatly improved. Secondly, Boris Johnson poses a much bigger threat to progressive politics in London than Steve Norris ever did, both because he stands much more chance of winning than Norris and because he is much more rightwing than Norris.</p>
<p>It will be a slightly odd feeling on May 1st, however, given that this will be the first time my &#8220;X&#8221; has gone anywhere near a Labour Party candidate (even as second preference!) since the 1984 Euro elections.</p>
<p>Darren Johnson &#8211; Green AM</p>
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		<title>By: Peter David</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/official-vote-green-get-brown-2435.html#comment-44462</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 22:00:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/official-vote-green-get-brown-2435.html#comment-44462</guid>
		<description>This is all going round in circles.  Make a reasoned argument in favour of the GL congestion charge or against the LEZ, and the Brown-Greens just parrot some quote at you.  Ho hum.

I will correct Jenny Craig on one thing though: I am not contemplating voting for Boris Johnson.  I&#039;m not contemplating voting for Ken Livingstone either.  I&#039;m only contemplating voting for Brian Paddick - who I give my second preference to is frankly none of your business.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is all going round in circles.  Make a reasoned argument in favour of the GL congestion charge or against the LEZ, and the Brown-Greens just parrot some quote at you.  Ho hum.</p>
<p>I will correct Jenny Craig on one thing though: I am not contemplating voting for Boris Johnson.  I&#8217;m not contemplating voting for Ken Livingstone either.  I&#8217;m only contemplating voting for Brian Paddick &#8211; who I give my second preference to is frankly none of your business.</p>
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		<title>By: asquith</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/official-vote-green-get-brown-2435.html#comment-44459</link>
		<dc:creator>asquith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 21:41:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/official-vote-green-get-brown-2435.html#comment-44459</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m a member of Friends Of The Earth, and I won&#039;t be tearing up my subscription. They were right to praise Livingstone on this issue. No, he isn&#039;t Satan incarnate, and I dare say he&#039;s done some things right.

But he isn&#039;t the best candidate! ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m a member of Friends Of The Earth, and I won&#8217;t be tearing up my subscription. They were right to praise Livingstone on this issue. No, he isn&#8217;t Satan incarnate, and I dare say he&#8217;s done some things right.</p>
<p>But he isn&#8217;t the best candidate! <img src='http://www.libdemvoice.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Geoffrey Payne</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/official-vote-green-get-brown-2435.html#comment-44458</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoffrey Payne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 21:37:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/official-vote-green-get-brown-2435.html#comment-44458</guid>
		<description>Well I hope someone from my party can explain this, because the quotes from Friends of the Earth make a good prima facie case for supporting Ken&#039;s policy.
I have never seen the Lib Dems attack Friends of the Earth before, and up until now they have not started as yet. Attacking the Greens is what you expect in party politics (regardless of whether it is the right thing to do), but how many Lib Dems are going to level the same accusations against Friends of the Earth?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well I hope someone from my party can explain this, because the quotes from Friends of the Earth make a good prima facie case for supporting Ken&#8217;s policy.<br />
I have never seen the Lib Dems attack Friends of the Earth before, and up until now they have not started as yet. Attacking the Greens is what you expect in party politics (regardless of whether it is the right thing to do), but how many Lib Dems are going to level the same accusations against Friends of the Earth?</p>
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		<title>By: greengirldavies</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/official-vote-green-get-brown-2435.html#comment-44457</link>
		<dc:creator>greengirldavies</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 21:23:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/official-vote-green-get-brown-2435.html#comment-44457</guid>
		<description>Re: Geoffrey Payne plea for an independent assessment of the Low Emission Zone, which Ken has introduced, the Green’s support, but Brian Paddick says he would scrap. Here are a few independent assessments: 


Greenpeace: &quot;Greenpeace strongly supports the proposal for a Low Emissions Zone in London. By addressing the severe environmental problems caused by road traffic, Transport for London is showing commendable international leadership. As well as improving air quality, a LEZ is likely to encourage the use of less polluting, more fuel efficient vehicles. Over time this will help reduce climate changing carbon dioxide emissions and build on the progress already made with the Congestion Charge, which has led to a 20% reduction in carbon dioxide from traffic in the zone.&quot; 

http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/tags/congestion-charge 


Friends of the Earth: &quot;We congratulate Ken Livingstone on this initiative. The LEZ is exactly the kind of initiative Londoners need to end decades of needless threat to their health from dirty vehicles. But to protect the health of all Londoners the whole of the capital must be brought within legal air quality limits.&quot;

www.foe.co.uk/resource/press_releases/londons_low_emission_zone_01022008.html 
 


The Campaign for Better Transport made exactly the kind of comment Brian Paddick could make if he simply thinks the Low Emission Zone doesn’t go far enough: 


“London’s low emission zone (LEZ), which comes into force today, is sorely needed. London’s air quality is the worst in the UK, causing an estimated 1,000 premature deaths a year.. But while the LEZ is welcome, it isn’t enough. The Mayor admits that even after it&#039;s fully implemented, hundreds of thousands of Londoners will live in areas where air pollution levels are dangerous to health.

Cars are responsible for much of London’s pollution and aren’t included in the LEZ rules. Londoners must be given better alternatives to driving, particularly in outer London where traffic levels are growing.”

http://www.bettertransport.org.uk/campaigns/traffic_reduction/blog</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: Geoffrey Payne plea for an independent assessment of the Low Emission Zone, which Ken has introduced, the Green’s support, but Brian Paddick says he would scrap. Here are a few independent assessments: </p>
<p>Greenpeace: &#8220;Greenpeace strongly supports the proposal for a Low Emissions Zone in London. By addressing the severe environmental problems caused by road traffic, Transport for London is showing commendable international leadership. As well as improving air quality, a LEZ is likely to encourage the use of less polluting, more fuel efficient vehicles. Over time this will help reduce climate changing carbon dioxide emissions and build on the progress already made with the Congestion Charge, which has led to a 20% reduction in carbon dioxide from traffic in the zone.&#8221; </p>
<p><a href="http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/tags/congestion-charge" rel="nofollow">http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/tags/congestion-charge</a> </p>
<p>Friends of the Earth: &#8220;We congratulate Ken Livingstone on this initiative. The LEZ is exactly the kind of initiative Londoners need to end decades of needless threat to their health from dirty vehicles. But to protect the health of all Londoners the whole of the capital must be brought within legal air quality limits.&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.foe.co.uk/resource/press_releases/londons_low_emission_zone_01022008.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.foe.co.uk/resource/press_releases/londons_low_emission_zone_01022008.html</a> </p>
<p>The Campaign for Better Transport made exactly the kind of comment Brian Paddick could make if he simply thinks the Low Emission Zone doesn’t go far enough: </p>
<p>“London’s low emission zone (LEZ), which comes into force today, is sorely needed. London’s air quality is the worst in the UK, causing an estimated 1,000 premature deaths a year.. But while the LEZ is welcome, it isn’t enough. The Mayor admits that even after it&#8217;s fully implemented, hundreds of thousands of Londoners will live in areas where air pollution levels are dangerous to health.</p>
<p>Cars are responsible for much of London’s pollution and aren’t included in the LEZ rules. Londoners must be given better alternatives to driving, particularly in outer London where traffic levels are growing.”</p>
<p><a href="http://www.bettertransport.org.uk/campaigns/traffic_reduction/blog" rel="nofollow">http://www.bettertransport.org.uk/campaigns/traffic_reduction/blog</a></p>
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		<title>By: David L George</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/official-vote-green-get-brown-2435.html#comment-44456</link>
		<dc:creator>David L George</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 21:17:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/official-vote-green-get-brown-2435.html#comment-44456</guid>
		<description>If you could all get off your high horses for a moment, perhaps someone could explain why it is that six months ago, the Lib Dems were all saying how great the low emission zone was: http://www.glalibdems.org.uk/news/000458/london_low_emission_zone_welcome_step_to_tackle_climate_change__tuffrey.html

And now your Mayoral candidate wants to scrap it.

It&#039;s things like that that stop you from being a credible party. It&#039;s why you&#039;re going to lose Liverpool and Islington - your two flagship councils.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you could all get off your high horses for a moment, perhaps someone could explain why it is that six months ago, the Lib Dems were all saying how great the low emission zone was: <a href="http://www.glalibdems.org.uk/news/000458/london_low_emission_zone_welcome_step_to_tackle_climate_change__tuffrey.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.glalibdems.org.uk/news/000458/london_low_emission_zone_welcome_step_to_tackle_climate_change__tuffrey.html</a></p>
<p>And now your Mayoral candidate wants to scrap it.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s things like that that stop you from being a credible party. It&#8217;s why you&#8217;re going to lose Liverpool and Islington &#8211; your two flagship councils.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Wright</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/official-vote-green-get-brown-2435.html#comment-44435</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Wright</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 15:00:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/official-vote-green-get-brown-2435.html#comment-44435</guid>
		<description>Sorry &quot;SOCIALIST WORKER&quot;, not &quot;social worker&quot;!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry &#8220;SOCIALIST WORKER&#8221;, not &#8220;social worker&#8221;!</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Wright</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/official-vote-green-get-brown-2435.html#comment-44434</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Wright</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 14:50:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/official-vote-green-get-brown-2435.html#comment-44434</guid>
		<description>Every time I hear a Green/Respect/Socialist Worker activist trot (no pun) out the old “You opposed the war only until it started” line it makes me less likely to support any movement they endorse. It is not only a lie, but it is a grossly irresponsible line and exposes the underlying truth that many of those people secretly wanted - George Galloway-style - for Iraq to become a long and protracted war so that the war-mongers would be shown to be comprehensively wrong. As has been seen over the last 5 years, nobody who opposed the war needs any more support about why it was a bad idea. Many of us who opposed the war would have been much happier if we had been proved wrong and Iraq did break out into a peaceful democracy. There is no joy in being right about a disaster.

Let’s be honest and grown-up now: once a war has started, the best outcome for ALL sides is for a swift and decisive outcome. In the case of Iraq, the only possible outcome that could be swift and decisive was the collapse of Saddam Hussein’s regime. There is nothing incompatible with opposing a war, and then once it has started to hope for one side to win swiftly with as few casualties as possible. Those who oppose this outcome are implicitly saying that they wanted the war to drag on for longer. That would have meant: more British troops to be killed (which George Galloway wanted); more Iraqi civilians to be killed by a continued air campaign; more destruction of Iraqi infrastructure. It is one thing to say that the Iraqis have the right to defend themselves against invasion (they did) but another to wish them success when that success can only result in a longer and more bloody outcome.

The outcome of Iraq war was not about winning a student politics debate. Rather, many thousands of lives depended on a swift and decisive outcome. Now, as it happens, the American&#039;s (and Blair’s) lack on any reconstruction plan meant that in the aftermath of that swift victory, a grand defeat was snatched from its jaws, and the swiftness of the initial victory actually counted for little compared to the carnage that came after. But let’s be absolutely clear: no SANE person who was against the war really wanted that carnage and civil war to happen. That is the realm of armchair extremists who want to see death continue, safe from their own cosy democratic living-rooms in the UK.

When I see the Green Party pushing this line, it just goes to prove how they have been tainted with the worst aspects of Social Worker style campaigning. They will regret it in the long term.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Every time I hear a Green/Respect/Socialist Worker activist trot (no pun) out the old “You opposed the war only until it started” line it makes me less likely to support any movement they endorse. It is not only a lie, but it is a grossly irresponsible line and exposes the underlying truth that many of those people secretly wanted &#8211; George Galloway-style &#8211; for Iraq to become a long and protracted war so that the war-mongers would be shown to be comprehensively wrong. As has been seen over the last 5 years, nobody who opposed the war needs any more support about why it was a bad idea. Many of us who opposed the war would have been much happier if we had been proved wrong and Iraq did break out into a peaceful democracy. There is no joy in being right about a disaster.</p>
<p>Let’s be honest and grown-up now: once a war has started, the best outcome for ALL sides is for a swift and decisive outcome. In the case of Iraq, the only possible outcome that could be swift and decisive was the collapse of Saddam Hussein’s regime. There is nothing incompatible with opposing a war, and then once it has started to hope for one side to win swiftly with as few casualties as possible. Those who oppose this outcome are implicitly saying that they wanted the war to drag on for longer. That would have meant: more British troops to be killed (which George Galloway wanted); more Iraqi civilians to be killed by a continued air campaign; more destruction of Iraqi infrastructure. It is one thing to say that the Iraqis have the right to defend themselves against invasion (they did) but another to wish them success when that success can only result in a longer and more bloody outcome.</p>
<p>The outcome of Iraq war was not about winning a student politics debate. Rather, many thousands of lives depended on a swift and decisive outcome. Now, as it happens, the American&#8217;s (and Blair’s) lack on any reconstruction plan meant that in the aftermath of that swift victory, a grand defeat was snatched from its jaws, and the swiftness of the initial victory actually counted for little compared to the carnage that came after. But let’s be absolutely clear: no SANE person who was against the war really wanted that carnage and civil war to happen. That is the realm of armchair extremists who want to see death continue, safe from their own cosy democratic living-rooms in the UK.</p>
<p>When I see the Green Party pushing this line, it just goes to prove how they have been tainted with the worst aspects of Social Worker style campaigning. They will regret it in the long term.</p>
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		<title>By: Geoffrey Payne</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/official-vote-green-get-brown-2435.html#comment-44429</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoffrey Payne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 13:05:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/official-vote-green-get-brown-2435.html#comment-44429</guid>
		<description>This debate about whether LEZ cuts pollution or whether it is counter productive is a rather technical one. I do not see why this matter should be decided between politicians who all want to be green, but at the same time all want to justify their existance by being different to each other.
Surely what we need is some independent research that can say once and for all who is right and what the best course of action is?
Given that all sides are sincere about wanting to do the right Green thing (and no one has given a sensible philosophical reason as to why they are not), this arguement strikes me a daft. If the research shows that LEZ will cut pollution, then we should all support it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This debate about whether LEZ cuts pollution or whether it is counter productive is a rather technical one. I do not see why this matter should be decided between politicians who all want to be green, but at the same time all want to justify their existance by being different to each other.<br />
Surely what we need is some independent research that can say once and for all who is right and what the best course of action is?<br />
Given that all sides are sincere about wanting to do the right Green thing (and no one has given a sensible philosophical reason as to why they are not), this arguement strikes me a daft. If the research shows that LEZ will cut pollution, then we should all support it.</p>
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		<title>By: Julian H</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/official-vote-green-get-brown-2435.html#comment-44425</link>
		<dc:creator>Julian H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 12:26:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/official-vote-green-get-brown-2435.html#comment-44425</guid>
		<description>Jenny, forgive me but I don&#039;t feel it&#039;s reasonable to label a vote you just happen to disagree with as &quot;irresponsible&quot; - we don&#039;t have a responsibility to vote for anyone as second preference - it&#039;s an open choice for each of us, that old &#039;democracy&#039; thing.

Furthermore, it would be strange to blame the Liberal Democrat Party if Boris wins. This is one of the more bizarre &#039;I&#039;m cancelling my subscription&#039; type threats I&#039;ve seen of late (although of course, there have been &lt;i&gt;certain others&lt;/i&gt;).

Sure, we &quot;believe in PR, we believe in coalitions&quot; but I don&#039;t see what this has to do with Ken (especially given his schmoozing with somewhat illiberal and undemocratic characters of the world).

I&#039;m also unclear as to how a vote for Boris is &quot;self indulgent&quot;. Alas I was going to attempt a humourous reference to &#039;indulging in Boris&#039; but as it&#039;s lunchtime this would perhaps be cruel. Horrid thought, depart my mind...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jenny, forgive me but I don&#8217;t feel it&#8217;s reasonable to label a vote you just happen to disagree with as &#8220;irresponsible&#8221; &#8211; we don&#8217;t have a responsibility to vote for anyone as second preference &#8211; it&#8217;s an open choice for each of us, that old &#8216;democracy&#8217; thing.</p>
<p>Furthermore, it would be strange to blame the Liberal Democrat Party if Boris wins. This is one of the more bizarre &#8216;I&#8217;m cancelling my subscription&#8217; type threats I&#8217;ve seen of late (although of course, there have been <i>certain others</i>).</p>
<p>Sure, we &#8220;believe in PR, we believe in coalitions&#8221; but I don&#8217;t see what this has to do with Ken (especially given his schmoozing with somewhat illiberal and undemocratic characters of the world).</p>
<p>I&#8217;m also unclear as to how a vote for Boris is &#8220;self indulgent&#8221;. Alas I was going to attempt a humourous reference to &#8216;indulging in Boris&#8217; but as it&#8217;s lunchtime this would perhaps be cruel. Horrid thought, depart my mind&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Jenny Craig</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/official-vote-green-get-brown-2435.html#comment-44423</link>
		<dc:creator>Jenny Craig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 11:43:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/official-vote-green-get-brown-2435.html#comment-44423</guid>
		<description>Peter David, even considering voting for BORIS JOHNSON is self indulgent considering what the stakes are on potentially losing London&#039;s groundbreaking work (under ken Livingston) on climate change.  This is why I sometimes wonder whether I made the wrong choice in becoming a Lib Dem.  We believe in PR, we believe in coalitions, Ken (as a second preference) offers way closer to anything Boris Johnson does in terms of our policies.  I believe the Lib Dems who are thinking about endorsing Boris Johnson over Ken Livingstone are irresponsible and if Johnson wins I will seriously have to reassess my support for the Lib Dems.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peter David, even considering voting for BORIS JOHNSON is self indulgent considering what the stakes are on potentially losing London&#8217;s groundbreaking work (under ken Livingston) on climate change.  This is why I sometimes wonder whether I made the wrong choice in becoming a Lib Dem.  We believe in PR, we believe in coalitions, Ken (as a second preference) offers way closer to anything Boris Johnson does in terms of our policies.  I believe the Lib Dems who are thinking about endorsing Boris Johnson over Ken Livingstone are irresponsible and if Johnson wins I will seriously have to reassess my support for the Lib Dems.</p>
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		<title>By: theChristophe</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/official-vote-green-get-brown-2435.html#comment-44415</link>
		<dc:creator>theChristophe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 09:22:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/official-vote-green-get-brown-2435.html#comment-44415</guid>
		<description>This is history repeating itself, the Greens in Germany have campaigned on the basis of receiving second preference votes for parliamentary seats and unless my memory fails me they actively used a slogan to that effect on their campaign material. The result? A Green/Socialist (arguably New Labour) coalition for two terms. It would not surprise me if the Greens in this country had someone on their campaign team from the German Greens. It will be interesting to see how this pans out for the London wide Assembly seats.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is history repeating itself, the Greens in Germany have campaigned on the basis of receiving second preference votes for parliamentary seats and unless my memory fails me they actively used a slogan to that effect on their campaign material. The result? A Green/Socialist (arguably New Labour) coalition for two terms. It would not surprise me if the Greens in this country had someone on their campaign team from the German Greens. It will be interesting to see how this pans out for the London wide Assembly seats.</p>
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		<title>By: James Graham</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/official-vote-green-get-brown-2435.html#comment-44413</link>
		<dc:creator>James Graham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 09:00:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/official-vote-green-get-brown-2435.html#comment-44413</guid>
		<description>Phil, can you provide chapter and verse for that &#039;job being done&#039; quote? In fact, the party&#039;s line was to oppose the war but not to attack the troops who were doing their duty. This was at a time when anti-war protesters were claiming troops should be personally hauled up in front of the International Criminal Court for war crimes.

I notice that a few months later, the Stop the War coalition started using the not dissimilar slogan &#039;Support our troops - bring them home&#039;. If you&#039;ve organised trips to demos in the way that you claim you have almost certainly marched under that slogan.  Meanwhile, five years later no-one - not Stop the War, not Galloway, not Livingstone and not even the Green Party - has called for the ICC to start prosecuting troops for their actions. 

You don&#039;t actually disagree with the Lib Dem line. So spare us your manufactured outrage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Phil, can you provide chapter and verse for that &#8216;job being done&#8217; quote? In fact, the party&#8217;s line was to oppose the war but not to attack the troops who were doing their duty. This was at a time when anti-war protesters were claiming troops should be personally hauled up in front of the International Criminal Court for war crimes.</p>
<p>I notice that a few months later, the Stop the War coalition started using the not dissimilar slogan &#8216;Support our troops &#8211; bring them home&#8217;. If you&#8217;ve organised trips to demos in the way that you claim you have almost certainly marched under that slogan.  Meanwhile, five years later no-one &#8211; not Stop the War, not Galloway, not Livingstone and not even the Green Party &#8211; has called for the ICC to start prosecuting troops for their actions. </p>
<p>You don&#8217;t actually disagree with the Lib Dem line. So spare us your manufactured outrage.</p>
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		<title>By: Phil B</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/official-vote-green-get-brown-2435.html#comment-44411</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 07:46:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/official-vote-green-get-brown-2435.html#comment-44411</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m amused by Peter David&#039;s comment &quot;Anti-war voters will question why Livingstone chose to spend the 5th anniversary of the Iraq War glad handing the man who signed all the cheques.&quot;

Having organised public meetings and coaches to demonstrations since 2002 I have to say I don&#039;t know anyone who is concerned by Livingstone&#039;s activities on the fifth anniversary of the war. I think the fact that he opposed the war and continues to oppose the disastrous occupation is what people understand to be Livingstone&#039;s position, he wrote a very good article on it for the fifth anniversary which I&#039;m sure you&#039;ve read.

Out of interest, what was Paddick&#039;s position on the war once it had begun? Was it different to the LibDems official line to oppose the missiles going in, but supporting the &#039;job being done&#039; once the first few had rained down? 

Whatever it is, it must be closer to Livingstone&#039;s clear opposition than Johnson&#039;s gung-ho support for Bush on this...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m amused by Peter David&#8217;s comment &#8220;Anti-war voters will question why Livingstone chose to spend the 5th anniversary of the Iraq War glad handing the man who signed all the cheques.&#8221;</p>
<p>Having organised public meetings and coaches to demonstrations since 2002 I have to say I don&#8217;t know anyone who is concerned by Livingstone&#8217;s activities on the fifth anniversary of the war. I think the fact that he opposed the war and continues to oppose the disastrous occupation is what people understand to be Livingstone&#8217;s position, he wrote a very good article on it for the fifth anniversary which I&#8217;m sure you&#8217;ve read.</p>
<p>Out of interest, what was Paddick&#8217;s position on the war once it had begun? Was it different to the LibDems official line to oppose the missiles going in, but supporting the &#8216;job being done&#8217; once the first few had rained down? </p>
<p>Whatever it is, it must be closer to Livingstone&#8217;s clear opposition than Johnson&#8217;s gung-ho support for Bush on this&#8230;</p>
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