Comments on: Opinion: Ming must stay http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-ming-must-stay-801.html Our place to talk - an independent website for supporters of the Liberal Democrat party in the UK. Sat, 11 Feb 2012 03:46:54 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: LDmember http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-ming-must-stay-801.html#comment-15501 LDmember Fri, 25 May 2007 12:19:06 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-ming-must-stay-801.html#comment-15501 Graeme, opinion polls DO matter because they ask how people would vote in a General Election. Of course if you're happy to get councillors elected but not MPs then that's your business. Liam, image DOES matter. If you don't believe me ask yourself why Blair did so well in 97 and why Cameron's rating is so good now. I want the LD voice to be heard on justice, civil liberties, foreign policy, energy policy, etc and that means having a high-profile leader that the public actually likes. Graeme, opinion polls DO matter because they ask how people would vote in a General Election. Of course if you’re happy to get councillors elected but not MPs then that’s your business.

Liam, image DOES matter. If you don’t believe me ask yourself why Blair did so well in 97 and why Cameron’s rating is so good now.

I want the LD voice to be heard on justice, civil liberties, foreign policy, energy policy, etc and that means having a high-profile leader that the public actually likes.

]]> By: Guy http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-ming-must-stay-801.html#comment-15281 Guy Wed, 23 May 2007 15:50:27 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-ming-must-stay-801.html#comment-15281 The 'debate' over Ming's future is, frankly, becoming rather wearisome. Having any other leader during these most recent elections would have made little difference to our results. Firstly, national leaders only have a marginal impact on local elections. Secondly, alternative Lib Dem leaders would also face the same difficulty in breaking into a news agenda dominated by the ongoing saga over when Blair will step down and, now, whether we have yet to see the 'real' Gordon Brown. The Tories have also struggled to make the news agenda in recent days - except when Cameron's flakiness gets them in a muddle over their education policy. Ming's real qualities will come to the fore once Brown is installed as PM and, particularly, when we approach the election when media balance rules apply. My sense is Brown's government will struggle after a few weeks for the same reasons Blair's is - Labour are tired. The Tories will struggle once they start to produce the results of their numerous policy reviews. Ming may well be perceived as a potential 'kingmaker' in the lead up to the next election. In that role, experience will definitely be an advantage. He'll be taken seriously and justly so. The ‘debate’ over Ming’s future is, frankly, becoming rather wearisome. Having any other leader during these most recent elections would have made little difference to our results.

Firstly, national leaders only have a marginal impact on local elections. Secondly, alternative Lib Dem leaders would also face the same difficulty in breaking into a news agenda dominated by the ongoing saga over when Blair will step down and, now, whether we have yet to see the ‘real’ Gordon Brown.

The Tories have also struggled to make the news agenda in recent days – except when Cameron’s flakiness gets them in a muddle over their education policy.

Ming’s real qualities will come to the fore once Brown is installed as PM and, particularly, when we approach the election when media balance rules apply. My sense is Brown’s government will struggle after a few weeks for the same reasons Blair’s is – Labour are tired. The Tories will struggle once they start to produce the results of their numerous policy reviews.

Ming may well be perceived as a potential ‘kingmaker’ in the lead up to the next election. In that role, experience will definitely be an advantage. He’ll be taken seriously and justly so.

]]> By: Graeme http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-ming-must-stay-801.html#comment-15272 Graeme Wed, 23 May 2007 14:07:00 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-ming-must-stay-801.html#comment-15272 You also have to ask why a slide in the opinion polls matters if, when people actually go out to vote, the % share is roughly unchanged. You also have to ask why a slide in the opinion polls matters if, when people actually go out to vote, the % share is roughly unchanged.

]]> By: Liam http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-ming-must-stay-801.html#comment-15261 Liam Wed, 23 May 2007 12:44:06 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-ming-must-stay-801.html#comment-15261 Aaaagh - an IMAGE PROBLEM? So that's it - he is intellegent, mature, detailed, reasonsable, and smart. He is not a spin doctor, not a PR freak or headline chaser. So with all the largely positive results in the elections just gone, this leader is being pushed to one side because of his image (and, I suggest from this, his age), and all because some LibDems want Tory defection targets Laws or Huhne as leader? Why aim for yet more leadership election blood-letting at a time when we need a competent leader to guide us through Brown's first months as leader. Oh wait, we DO have a competent leader. Don't go off one set of election results - it reeks of desparate power hungry image politics and it stinks. Aaaagh – an IMAGE PROBLEM? So that’s it – he is intellegent, mature, detailed, reasonsable, and smart. He is not a spin doctor, not a PR freak or headline chaser.

So with all the largely positive results in the elections just gone, this leader is being pushed to one side because of his image (and, I suggest from this, his age), and all because some LibDems want Tory defection targets Laws or Huhne as leader?

Why aim for yet more leadership election blood-letting at a time when we need a competent leader to guide us through Brown’s first months as leader. Oh wait, we DO have a competent leader.

Don’t go off one set of election results – it reeks of desparate power hungry image politics and it stinks.

]]> By: LDmember http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-ming-must-stay-801.html#comment-15259 LDmember Wed, 23 May 2007 12:36:57 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-ming-must-stay-801.html#comment-15259 In reply to Chris Rennard (post 21): Those reasons MIGHT just explain this years council results, but they don't explain: 1) A gradual slide in the opinion polls 2) The results in Scotland 3) The Times poll on Ming's popularity showing 54% of our supporters want him to stand down v 39% to stay. 4) The complete lack of enthusiasm I am getting for Ming on the doorsteps. Ming does deserve praise for what he's done, but THERE IS AN IMAGE PROBLEM. Please could Ming, Vince Cable, Simon Hughes or Chris Rennard please show me they understand this and have an answer! Yours, a LD member In reply to Chris Rennard (post 21):

Those reasons MIGHT just explain this years council results, but they don’t explain:

1) A gradual slide in the opinion polls
2) The results in Scotland
3) The Times poll on Ming’s popularity showing 54% of our supporters want him to stand down v 39% to stay.
4) The complete lack of enthusiasm I am getting for Ming on the doorsteps.

Ming does deserve praise for what he’s done, but THERE IS AN IMAGE PROBLEM. Please could Ming, Vince Cable, Simon Hughes or Chris Rennard please show me they understand this and have an answer!

Yours,
a LD member

]]> By: peter http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-ming-must-stay-801.html#comment-14987 peter Mon, 21 May 2007 16:50:29 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-ming-must-stay-801.html#comment-14987 21 A pedant writes - that is 63% of our <b>net</b> losses, Chris. I agree otherwise - I have seen a spreadsheet for all the English seats we hold (local elections before last GE, Last Ge, local elections from 2005 and most recent local elections) that was generally fairly rosy. Torbay wasn't - but we have had terrible results there before and gone on to hold the seat. 21 A pedant writes – that is 63% of our net losses, Chris.

I agree otherwise – I have seen a spreadsheet for all the English seats we hold (local elections before last GE, Last Ge, local elections from 2005 and most recent local elections) that was generally fairly rosy.

Torbay wasn’t – but we have had terrible results there before and gone on to hold the seat.

]]> By: LDmember http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-ming-must-stay-801.html#comment-14973 LDmember Mon, 21 May 2007 15:27:13 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-ming-must-stay-801.html#comment-14973 I'm a member of the Liberal Democrats and I want Ming to stand down. There we go, I've said it. Ming deserves praise for his commitment, his energy and the real improvements he's made to the party machine. However, it's time to face facts. He projects the wrong image and performs badly at PMQs. Given who he is, this won't change. Both matter and if we don't fix them soon we will lose support and a swathe of seats at the next GE. I know that the original leadership election gave him a clear mandate, but that election was severely compromised. It is not the ringing endorsement his supporters claim. I want the party to succeed and for that we need a real contest between Chris Huhne and Nick Clegg ASAP. Yours A long standing LD member I’m a member of the Liberal Democrats and I want Ming to stand down.

There we go, I’ve said it. Ming deserves praise for his commitment, his energy and the real improvements he’s made to the party machine.

However, it’s time to face facts. He projects the wrong image and performs badly at PMQs. Given who he is, this won’t change. Both matter and if we don’t fix them soon we will lose support and a swathe of seats at the next GE.

I know that the original leadership election gave him a clear mandate, but that election was severely compromised. It is not the ringing endorsement his supporters claim.

I want the party to succeed and for that we need a real contest between Chris Huhne and Nick Clegg ASAP.

Yours
A long standing LD member

]]> By: Chris Rennard http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-ming-must-stay-801.html#comment-13867 Chris Rennard Sat, 12 May 2007 17:18:12 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-ming-must-stay-801.html#comment-13867 I obviously agree with Mark Pack's initial point about where we did well. a) We did well in MOST Lib Dem Tory marginals at the last election - places such as Eastleigh, Westmorland & Lonsdale and Solihull. b) We did well in MOST of the seats that we narrowly won from Labour last time - including Rochdale, Bristol West, Leeds North West. c) We did well in MOST of the seats that we will aim to take from the Tories next time -including Eastbourne, Guildford, St Albans. d) We did very well in MOST of the seats that we will aim to take from Labour next time including Northampton North, Hull North and Warrington South. But the reason that we lost so many seats overall (in spite of maintaining vote share at 26%) is that we lost 155 seats (63% of all of our losses) in just 10 councils (of which only one might currently be considered as a key seat) and almost all our other losses were also outside our key seats. Rallings/Thrasher forecasts come with big "IFs" that are seldom properly publicised, but this is why they say that these local election results repeated in a General Election would see an increased number of Lib Dem MPs. So let us not despair, let us learn the lessons, move on and do better in future. I obviously agree with Mark Pack’s initial point about where we did well.
a) We did well in MOST Lib Dem Tory marginals at the last election – places such as Eastleigh, Westmorland & Lonsdale and Solihull.
b) We did well in MOST of the seats that we narrowly won from Labour last time – including Rochdale, Bristol West, Leeds North West.
c) We did well in MOST of the seats that we will aim to take from the Tories next time -including Eastbourne, Guildford, St Albans.
d) We did very well in MOST of the seats that we will aim to take from Labour next time including Northampton North, Hull North and Warrington South.
But the reason that we lost so many seats overall (in spite of maintaining vote share at 26%) is that we lost 155 seats (63% of all of our losses) in just 10 councils (of which only one might currently be considered as a key seat) and almost all our other losses were also outside our key seats. Rallings/Thrasher forecasts come with big “IFs” that are seldom properly publicised, but this is why they say that these local election results repeated in a General Election would see an increased number of Lib Dem MPs.
So let us not despair, let us learn the lessons, move on and do better in future.

]]> By: Hywel Morgan http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-ming-must-stay-801.html#comment-13864 Hywel Morgan Sat, 12 May 2007 16:53:15 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-ming-must-stay-801.html#comment-13864 The powerpoint slides I saw the other day referred our vote share being up in 13 seats - excluding Torbay which suggested a more selective sample was being used. (might have been 18 seats but the point still holds) There are points that can be taken from places that had good results but if people believe that these results were generally OK then they are much less likely to take them on board. The powerpoint slides I saw the other day referred our vote share being up in 13 seats – excluding Torbay which suggested a more selective sample was being used. (might have been 18 seats but the point still holds)

There are points that can be taken from places that had good results but if people believe that these results were generally OK then they are much less likely to take them on board.

]]> By: Mark Pack http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-ming-must-stay-801.html#comment-13859 Mark Pack Sat, 12 May 2007 16:07:23 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-ming-must-stay-801.html#comment-13859 Hwyel - it's a fair point that you have to bear in mind the comparisson with the local elections in the run up to the last general election ... which is why, yes, that's what we've done. And yes, the picture of us doing as well or better in held seats overall holds up - as does the picture of us doing well enough in a range of target seats to be hopefully of gains in many of them. Hwyel – it’s a fair point that you have to bear in mind the comparisson with the local elections in the run up to the last general election … which is why, yes, that’s what we’ve done. And yes, the picture of us doing as well or better in held seats overall holds up – as does the picture of us doing well enough in a range of target seats to be hopefully of gains in many of them.

]]> By: Hywel Morgan http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-ming-must-stay-801.html#comment-13853 Hywel Morgan Sat, 12 May 2007 13:40:16 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-ming-must-stay-801.html#comment-13853 "there are plenty of others in the party who have greater vision, charisma and integrity (simon hughes, nick clegg, chris huhne anyone?)" This is the big argument advanced by the "ditch Ming" brigade. It seems though to have little basis in reality. If people point to the impact that Nick and Chris have made in their spokesperson roles then (a) it seems fairly minimal and (b) nowhere near that established by Ming in Foreign Affairs before he became leader. The failings of the party since Ming became leader are firstly not that massive (the issue is learning the lessons from them for the future) but secondly would have arisen even if Charles had remained leader so to lay them at Mings door is missing the point. “there are plenty of others in the party who have greater vision, charisma and integrity (simon hughes, nick clegg, chris huhne anyone?)”

This is the big argument advanced by the “ditch Ming” brigade. It seems though to have little basis in reality.

If people point to the impact that Nick and Chris have made in their spokesperson roles then (a) it seems fairly minimal and (b) nowhere near that established by Ming in Foreign Affairs before he became leader.

The failings of the party since Ming became leader are firstly not that massive (the issue is learning the lessons from them for the future) but secondly would have arisen even if Charles had remained leader so to lay them at Mings door is missing the point.

]]> By: Jeremy Hargreaves http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-ming-must-stay-801.html#comment-13848 Jeremy Hargreaves Sat, 12 May 2007 11:40:10 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-ming-must-stay-801.html#comment-13848 Excellent article - very well put. Excellent article – very well put.

]]> By: Sam http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-ming-must-stay-801.html#comment-13845 Sam Sat, 12 May 2007 10:01:43 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-ming-must-stay-801.html#comment-13845 Big Mak - but the voters have not deserted us - in fact we have had a fairly consistent share of the vote for the past few rounds of local elections. Last year you blamed Ming for the poor results in your area. This year we did much better in your area. Why aren't you crediting Ming with that? Big Mak – but the voters have not deserted us – in fact we have had a fairly consistent share of the vote for the past few rounds of local elections.

Last year you blamed Ming for the poor results in your area. This year we did much better in your area. Why aren’t you crediting Ming with that?

]]> By: Hywel Morgan http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-ming-must-stay-801.html#comment-13843 Hywel Morgan Sat, 12 May 2007 09:45:15 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-ming-must-stay-801.html#comment-13843 "although Mark Pack has rightly pointed how well we held up in our key seats." Only partly. He's shown that we polled well in some (largely Labour leaning seats) - however the key thing is are we doing better than we did 4 years ago and also to look at the whole range of Parliamentary seats. The party is in my view in serious danger of spinning these results to themselves which will not help us in future local elections. “although Mark Pack has rightly pointed how well we held up in our key seats.”

Only partly. He’s shown that we polled well in some (largely Labour leaning seats) – however the key thing is are we doing better than we did 4 years ago and also to look at the whole range of Parliamentary seats.

The party is in my view in serious danger of spinning these results to themselves which will not help us in future local elections.

]]> By: jono http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-ming-must-stay-801.html#comment-13842 jono Sat, 12 May 2007 09:40:25 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-ming-must-stay-801.html#comment-13842 I think members are just a bit dissapointed with Ming. the local election results certainly weren't ming's fault but then again he certainly didn't help. The problem the party has at the moment is a stronger oppossition and the fact we have yet to set out a greater vision for the country. Ming is also not the most charismatic man in British politics around and there are plenty of others in the party who have greater vision, charisma and integrity (simon hughes, nick clegg, chris huhne anyone?)so it can be frustrating for us to be 'held back' by this leader but at the same time i dont think a leadership election at this point would be too good for the party and it really depends on how ming fairs in the next general election that will define him. I think members are just a bit dissapointed with Ming. the local election results certainly weren’t ming’s fault but then again he certainly didn’t help. The problem the party has at the moment is a stronger oppossition and the fact we have yet to set out a greater vision for the country. Ming is also not the most charismatic man in British politics around and there are plenty of others in the party who have greater vision, charisma and integrity (simon hughes, nick clegg, chris huhne anyone?)so it can be frustrating for us to be ‘held back’ by this leader but at the same time i dont think a leadership election at this point would be too good for the party and it really depends on how ming fairs in the next general election that will define him.

]]> By: Big Mak http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-ming-must-stay-801.html#comment-13838 Big Mak Sat, 12 May 2007 09:03:27 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-ming-must-stay-801.html#comment-13838 Richard if you don't know i know people who well...the electorate who for 2 years have stayed well away from us. What do you think a signal, or as long as we think different then thats alright. Jesus, get a grip people, just look at the poll figures and speak to people. Ming is a disaster and you bloody well know it!!!!! Richard if you don’t know i know people who well…the electorate who for 2 years have stayed well away from us. What do you think a signal, or as long as we think different then thats alright. Jesus, get a grip people, just look at the poll figures and speak to people. Ming is a disaster and you bloody well know it!!!!!

]]> By: Richard Huzzey http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-ming-must-stay-801.html#comment-13824 Richard Huzzey Sat, 12 May 2007 06:55:46 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-ming-must-stay-801.html#comment-13824 I think it's very important who our leader is, and I'm not rubbishing the importance of the role. But I don't think changing him would achieve any advance in the areas we need to improve in. I think it’s very important who our leader is, and I’m not rubbishing the importance of the role. But I don’t think changing him would achieve any advance in the areas we need to improve in.

]]> By: madmacs http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-ming-must-stay-801.html#comment-13814 madmacs Sat, 12 May 2007 02:15:50 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-ming-must-stay-801.html#comment-13814 In my view the Lib Dems have great polices but uncharismatic leadership. The Tories have no policies but a charismatic leader. Sadly in modern Britain having a charismatic leader seems more important than having sound policies In my view the Lib Dems have great polices but uncharismatic leadership. The Tories have no policies but a charismatic leader.

Sadly in modern Britain having a charismatic leader seems more important than having sound policies

]]> By: Letterman http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-ming-must-stay-801.html#comment-13804 Letterman Fri, 11 May 2007 23:46:21 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-ming-must-stay-801.html#comment-13804 I suppose, then you could have his seat as well - double bonus! I suppose, then you could have his seat as well – double bonus!

]]> By: Laurence Boyce http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-ming-must-stay-801.html#comment-13802 Laurence Boyce Fri, 11 May 2007 23:36:33 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-ming-must-stay-801.html#comment-13802 Suppose we campaign for compulsory retirement at 65? The not so subtle approach. Suppose we campaign for compulsory retirement at 65? The not so subtle approach.

]]>