Comments on: Opinion: Who’s going to give us a good reason to oppose an EU Reform Treaty referendum? http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-whos-going-to-give-us-a-good-reason-to-oppose-an-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-1552.html Our place to talk - an independent website for supporters of the Liberal Democrat party in the UK. Sun, 12 Feb 2012 01:36:11 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: passing (well, virtually live-in) tory http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-whos-going-to-give-us-a-good-reason-to-oppose-an-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-1552.html#comment-32659 passing (well, virtually live-in) tory Wed, 31 Oct 2007 17:47:22 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-whos-going-to-give-us-a-good-reason-to-oppose-an-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-1552.html#comment-32659 Is the central question really whether we want to be in Europe or out? Surely it is more a question of how we can get effective cross-European organisation that benefits everyone but isn't too restrictive. This is why I think that an In or Out referendum is not a very sensible suggestion. There is a significant danger that a lot of people would vote "out" just because it is the only way of registering their opposition to the way that the the EU operates. It would be far more constructive to have a vote on this treaty where a "no" would not be massively damaging to the integrity of the EU but could provide leverage for proposing a less intrusive and centralised structure with greater democratic accountability. Is the central question really whether we want to be in Europe or out? Surely it is more a question of how we can get effective cross-European organisation that benefits everyone but isn’t too restrictive.

This is why I think that an In or Out referendum is not a very sensible suggestion. There is a significant danger that a lot of people would vote “out” just because it is the only way of registering their opposition to the way that the the EU operates. It would be far more constructive to have a vote on this treaty where a “no” would not be massively damaging to the integrity of the EU but could provide leverage for proposing a less intrusive and centralised structure with greater democratic accountability.

]]> By: mindstar http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-whos-going-to-give-us-a-good-reason-to-oppose-an-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-1552.html#comment-32657 mindstar Wed, 31 Oct 2007 16:50:37 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-whos-going-to-give-us-a-good-reason-to-oppose-an-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-1552.html#comment-32657 re #31 The significance is that this is not an act of parliament but an extra territorial treaty, with implications beyond the boundaries of British law and thus the Government should seek the authority of the people. re #31

The significance is that this is not an act of parliament but an extra territorial treaty, with implications beyond the boundaries of British law and thus the Government should seek the authority of the people.

]]> By: Millennium Dome http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-whos-going-to-give-us-a-good-reason-to-oppose-an-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-1552.html#comment-32639 Millennium Dome Wed, 31 Oct 2007 14:01:35 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-whos-going-to-give-us-a-good-reason-to-oppose-an-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-1552.html#comment-32639 Sorry, should have been clearer - raised the possibility of abstention to give us a "plague on both your houses" position. We neither support the Prime Monster's "weasel word" position NOR Mr Balloon's cowardly "won't face a referendum on the real question" position either. Having said that, if we DO support a referendum on this treaty - and I think that I DO - then you are right we should vote for that! Sorry, should have been clearer – raised the possibility of abstention to give us a “plague on both your houses” position. We neither support the Prime Monster’s “weasel word” position NOR Mr Balloon’s cowardly “won’t face a referendum on the real question” position either.

Having said that, if we DO support a referendum on this treaty – and I think that I DO – then you are right we should vote for that!

]]> By: Jeremy Hargreaves http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-whos-going-to-give-us-a-good-reason-to-oppose-an-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-1552.html#comment-32638 Jeremy Hargreaves Wed, 31 Oct 2007 13:03:11 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-whos-going-to-give-us-a-good-reason-to-oppose-an-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-1552.html#comment-32638 Mindstar - could you elucidate a bit on your phrase "of significance"? A key part of my view is that it isn't very significant - well obviously it has *some* significance, but in my view not very much, and far less than lots of things that we don't have referenda about (most Parliamentary Acts, for example). Mindstar – could you elucidate a bit on your phrase “of significance”? A key part of my view is that it isn’t very significant – well obviously it has *some* significance, but in my view not very much, and far less than lots of things that we don’t have referenda about (most Parliamentary Acts, for example).

]]> By: Sid http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-whos-going-to-give-us-a-good-reason-to-oppose-an-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-1552.html#comment-32636 Sid Wed, 31 Oct 2007 12:01:23 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-whos-going-to-give-us-a-good-reason-to-oppose-an-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-1552.html#comment-32636 I find it incredible that we are supporting Gordon Brown on this. People are concerned over this treaty and we should give them their say. Our position is too elitist. I find it incredible that we are supporting Gordon Brown on this. People are concerned over this treaty and we should give them their say. Our position is too elitist.

]]> By: Gordy http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-whos-going-to-give-us-a-good-reason-to-oppose-an-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-1552.html#comment-32624 Gordy Wed, 31 Oct 2007 09:26:54 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-whos-going-to-give-us-a-good-reason-to-oppose-an-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-1552.html#comment-32624 I am a supporter of more co-operation in the EU. I am also a supporter of the greater use of referendums. So I was in favour of our original decision to back a referendum on the constitution, although I respected the argumements against. However, all that is now irrelevant. What matters is that we promised a referendum on the constitution in our 2005 manifesto. The Lisbon Treaty is the constitution, jigged around to allow the French and Dutch governments to lie plausibly to their electorates - and everyone knows it. It follows that we are honour-bound to support a referendum on the Treaty when it comes before Parliament. Any other course of action would be inconceivable for the Liberal Democrats. I am a supporter of more co-operation in the EU. I am also a supporter of the greater use of referendums. So I was in favour of our original decision to back a referendum on the constitution, although I respected the argumements against. However, all that is now irrelevant.

What matters is that we promised a referendum on the constitution in our 2005 manifesto. The Lisbon Treaty is the constitution, jigged around to allow the French and Dutch governments to lie plausibly to their electorates – and everyone knows it.

It follows that we are honour-bound to support a referendum on the Treaty when it comes before Parliament. Any other course of action would be inconceivable for the Liberal Democrats.

]]> By: mindstar http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-whos-going-to-give-us-a-good-reason-to-oppose-an-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-1552.html#comment-32618 mindstar Wed, 31 Oct 2007 02:33:41 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-whos-going-to-give-us-a-good-reason-to-oppose-an-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-1552.html#comment-32618 We are supposed to be the party that wants to give away power to the people. Yet with a treaty of significance the lib dem hierarchy wants to take the decision out of the peoples hands. Outrageous, illiberal and wrong. We are supposed to be the party that wants to give away power to the people. Yet with a treaty of significance the lib dem hierarchy wants to take the decision out of the peoples hands. Outrageous, illiberal and wrong.

]]> By: Sal http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-whos-going-to-give-us-a-good-reason-to-oppose-an-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-1552.html#comment-32617 Sal Wed, 31 Oct 2007 01:51:26 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-whos-going-to-give-us-a-good-reason-to-oppose-an-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-1552.html#comment-32617 Oooww yes, let's not give a "victory" by having a dialogue with "people". They don't have the information anyway and probably wouldn't understand it if they did. Let the people in power at the top just make up their own minds about it, because top down decisions are what makes the EU so popular in Britain today. Oooww yes, let’s not give a “victory” by having a dialogue with “people”.
They don’t have the information anyway and probably wouldn’t understand it if they did. Let the people in power at the top just make up their own minds about it, because top down decisions are what makes the EU so popular in Britain today.

]]> By: Derrick Chester http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-whos-going-to-give-us-a-good-reason-to-oppose-an-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-1552.html#comment-32615 Derrick Chester Wed, 31 Oct 2007 01:18:40 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-whos-going-to-give-us-a-good-reason-to-oppose-an-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-1552.html#comment-32615 If a referendum were to be granted on this Treaty then it would be lost. How can a Treaty be sold to people when the Gvt line for selling it is that the UK has opt-outs from all the main bits so we do not have to worry! Also the euro-sceptic press would have a field day. The Treaty is about making Europe work better because in areas like the environment, policing, defence it makes a great deal of sense to be working together. We should not be opting out of so much of it. Also of course the main thing about the EU is that it enables countries to work together politically rather than fight each other militarily. To grant a referendum at this time will collapse the process of greater co-operation once and for all as well make the UK the odd one out. Even the funny sounding Party that the Conservatives work with in the EU Parliament are in favour of this agreement. A referendum is surely only as good as the information put before people. Parliament can conduct line by line scrutiny whereas a referendum campaign cannot possibly do so. I urge you not to give the Conservatives this eurosceptic victory. If a referendum were to be granted on this Treaty then it would be lost. How can a Treaty be sold to people when the Gvt line for selling it is that the UK has opt-outs from all the main bits so we do not have to worry! Also the euro-sceptic press would have a field day.
The Treaty is about making Europe work better because in areas like the environment, policing, defence it makes a great deal of sense to be working together. We should not be opting out of so much of it. Also of course the main thing about the EU is that it enables countries to work together politically rather than fight each other militarily. To grant a referendum at this time will collapse the process of greater co-operation once and for all as well make the UK the odd one out. Even the funny sounding Party that the Conservatives work with in the EU Parliament are in favour of this agreement.

A referendum is surely only as good as the information put before people. Parliament can conduct line by line scrutiny whereas a referendum campaign cannot possibly do so. I urge you not to give the Conservatives this eurosceptic victory.

]]> By: Peter Bancroft http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-whos-going-to-give-us-a-good-reason-to-oppose-an-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-1552.html#comment-32614 Peter Bancroft Wed, 31 Oct 2007 00:16:37 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-whos-going-to-give-us-a-good-reason-to-oppose-an-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-1552.html#comment-32614 Terry, I think that you might be interested in the European Movement: www.euromove.org.uk ...Or possibly Federal Union: www.federalunion.org.uk Unfortunately neither of these groups are especially popular at the moment, though Federal Union at its peak (in the 1930s!) did have over 30,000 members. Terry,

I think that you might be interested in the European Movement:
http://www.euromove.org.uk

…Or possibly Federal Union:
http://www.federalunion.org.uk

Unfortunately neither of these groups are especially popular at the moment, though Federal Union at its peak (in the 1930s!) did have over 30,000 members.

]]> By: Terry Gilbert http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-whos-going-to-give-us-a-good-reason-to-oppose-an-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-1552.html#comment-32613 Terry Gilbert Tue, 30 Oct 2007 23:58:47 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-whos-going-to-give-us-a-good-reason-to-oppose-an-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-1552.html#comment-32613 I do think that what we really need is a populist campaign to make the EU more democratic. It was liberals like Earl Grey who fought for decades to make the Westminster Parliament more democratic, culminating in the 1832 Reform Act. Now we should start the campaign to do the same for Europe. Scrap unelected Commissioners! Let the Council of Mnisters meet in public! Give the Parliament WE elect (preferably by STV) more power! This is the way to make the Europhobes irrelevant. I do think that what we really need is a populist campaign to make the EU more democratic. It was liberals like Earl Grey who fought for decades to make the Westminster Parliament more democratic, culminating in the 1832 Reform Act. Now we should start the campaign to do the same for Europe. Scrap unelected Commissioners! Let the Council of Mnisters meet in public! Give the Parliament WE elect (preferably by STV) more power! This is the way to make the Europhobes irrelevant.

]]> By: passing (well, virtually live-in) tory http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-whos-going-to-give-us-a-good-reason-to-oppose-an-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-1552.html#comment-32606 passing (well, virtually live-in) tory Tue, 30 Oct 2007 21:08:14 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-whos-going-to-give-us-a-good-reason-to-oppose-an-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-1552.html#comment-32606 Let me put some of my reasons for wanting a referendum on this treaty (as opposed to either letting it sail through or putting an in/out referendum). There is a lot of talk of needing to be at the heart of Europe in order to influence it, and this is a very noble aim. I think that many people see problems with the way that the EU operates. The treaty is in effect a constitution, in that it revises the way in which decisions are made and shifts the balance of power. The argument for their needing to be some tidying up is strong, but as this document sets the rules for how the EU operates THIS is the point at which it is efficient to apply pressure to make sure things turn out the way we want. Not because that is the way that we (UK people) want them but because we think that there is merit in our views. Speaking as a liberal Conservative (and yes I know Cleggy doesn't believe in us but we don't need the sound of clapping to validate our existence) I am concerned by the centralising tendencies of the EU. This also seems to go against one of the core statements in the current LibDem discussion paper on Europe: namely that decisions should be made at the appropriate level, and usually as low down as possible: something that is simply not consistent with current SOP in Brussels. A referendum would allow people to analyse in depth precisely what arragements we are letting ourselves in for and a no result would give our negotiators a strong position for making the case for changes to the document that would hopefully make for a stronger and more effective EU in the long run. And I think that this SHOULD allow for greater flexibility between states; lots of central control and harmonising is not necessarily a good thing. Opposing something does not have to be a negative approach. I think that there also needs to be a greater link between the demos and the executive within the EU system. The very remoteness of the decision making process alientates a lot of people. But if we do not crack this NOW then when? And while I am in a Tunbridge Wells mood, one of my deep frusttrations in this area is that I get the impression that quite a few countries sit back and accumulate brownie points while hoping that the UK (and, to a lesser extent Denmark) will get stuck with the dirty work of providing an effective opposition and the tag of party poopers. So (from my completely neutral position) I would love to see the Lib Dems vote for a referendum; not in order to give them foreign people a bloody nose, but as a constructive step towards a better implementation of the EU. Let me put some of my reasons for wanting a referendum on this treaty (as opposed to either letting it sail through or putting an in/out referendum).

There is a lot of talk of needing to be at the heart of Europe in order to influence it, and this is a very noble aim. I think that many people see problems with the way that the EU operates. The treaty is in effect a constitution, in that it revises the way in which decisions are made and shifts the balance of power.

The argument for their needing to be some tidying up is strong, but as this document sets the rules for how the EU operates THIS is the point at which it is efficient to apply pressure to make sure things turn out the way we want. Not because that is the way that we (UK people) want them but because we think that there is merit in our views.

Speaking as a liberal Conservative (and yes I know Cleggy doesn’t believe in us but we don’t need the sound of clapping to validate our existence) I am concerned by the centralising tendencies of the EU. This also seems to go against one of the core statements in the current LibDem discussion paper on Europe: namely that decisions should be made at the appropriate level, and usually as low down as possible: something that is simply not consistent with current SOP in Brussels.

A referendum would allow people to analyse in depth precisely what arragements we are letting ourselves in for and a no result would give our negotiators a strong position for making the case for changes to the document that would hopefully make for a stronger and more effective EU in the long run. And I think that this SHOULD allow for greater flexibility between states; lots of central control and harmonising is not necessarily a good thing.

Opposing something does not have to be a negative approach.

I think that there also needs to be a greater link between the demos and the executive within the EU system. The very remoteness of the decision making process alientates a lot of people. But if we do not crack this NOW then when?

And while I am in a Tunbridge Wells mood,
one of my deep frusttrations in this area is that I get the impression that quite a few countries sit back and accumulate brownie points while hoping that the UK (and, to a lesser extent Denmark) will get stuck with the dirty work of providing an effective opposition and the tag of party poopers.

So (from my completely neutral position) I would love to see the Lib Dems vote for a referendum; not in order to give them foreign people a bloody nose, but as a constructive step towards a better implementation of the EU.

]]> By: Bonkalot Jones http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-whos-going-to-give-us-a-good-reason-to-oppose-an-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-1552.html#comment-32605 Bonkalot Jones Tue, 30 Oct 2007 19:23:46 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-whos-going-to-give-us-a-good-reason-to-oppose-an-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-1552.html#comment-32605 So let me see if I have this right.. Nick Clegg - Would keep Trident and might give us a vote on the 'Reform' Treaty. Chris Huhne - Would ditch Trident unilaterally and has no plan to offer a referendum.. Well, I think that's my mind made up then... So let me see if I have this right..

Nick Clegg – Would keep Trident and might give us a vote on the ‘Reform’ Treaty.

Chris Huhne – Would ditch Trident unilaterally and has no plan to offer a referendum..

Well, I think that’s my mind made up then…

]]> By: David Morton http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-whos-going-to-give-us-a-good-reason-to-oppose-an-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-1552.html#comment-32602 David Morton Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:15:02 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-whos-going-to-give-us-a-good-reason-to-oppose-an-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-1552.html#comment-32602 20. He said using a Sun style sterotype of people who oppose referendums! 20. He said using a Sun style sterotype of people who oppose referendums!

]]> By: Gordy http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-whos-going-to-give-us-a-good-reason-to-oppose-an-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-1552.html#comment-32601 Gordy Tue, 30 Oct 2007 17:48:33 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-whos-going-to-give-us-a-good-reason-to-oppose-an-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-1552.html#comment-32601 Well said, James. Liberal Democrats know - because we live and work in the communities we serve - that people do not fit the Sun-reading, mob-rule stereotype conjured up by opponents of referendums. Well said, James. Liberal Democrats know – because we live and work in the communities we serve – that people do not fit the Sun-reading, mob-rule stereotype conjured up by opponents of referendums.

]]> By: David Morton http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-whos-going-to-give-us-a-good-reason-to-oppose-an-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-1552.html#comment-32600 David Morton Tue, 30 Oct 2007 17:39:51 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-whos-going-to-give-us-a-good-reason-to-oppose-an-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-1552.html#comment-32600 Its not fear of the mob. If the mob really wanted the death penalty back they could have it. they would just have to get off there fat arses and elect enough MP's to reflect the alledged majority view. I'm not anti democratic I just refferendums should be reserved for those really big changes that change the nature of the political system its self. I think the partys subjective judgement that this treaty doesn't qualify is the right one. Its not fear of the mob. If the mob really wanted the death penalty back they could have it. they would just have to get off there fat arses and elect enough MP’s to reflect the alledged majority view. I’m not anti democratic I just refferendums should be reserved for those really big changes that change the nature of the political system its self. I think the partys subjective judgement that this treaty doesn’t qualify is the right one.

]]> By: James Graham http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-whos-going-to-give-us-a-good-reason-to-oppose-an-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-1552.html#comment-32597 James Graham Tue, 30 Oct 2007 16:59:25 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-whos-going-to-give-us-a-good-reason-to-oppose-an-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-1552.html#comment-32597 Sounds good to me - the last EU country to hold a referendum on the death penalty was our neighbour Ireland - they voted to scrap it. I don't hold by this 'fear the mob' nonsense. Sounds good to me – the last EU country to hold a referendum on the death penalty was our neighbour Ireland – they voted to scrap it.

I don’t hold by this ‘fear the mob’ nonsense.

]]> By: David Morton http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-whos-going-to-give-us-a-good-reason-to-oppose-an-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-1552.html#comment-32596 David Morton Tue, 30 Oct 2007 16:19:03 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-whos-going-to-give-us-a-good-reason-to-oppose-an-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-1552.html#comment-32596 We could have brought down John majors Government over the maastricht paving vote but we didn't. We took some short term stick at the time but survived. My view is you have to ask wether this tidy up excercise of a treaty deserves a refferendum. No in my opinion. If you start conceding refferendums just because opinion polls sayy it would be popular what about the Death Penalty? We could have brought down John majors Government over the maastricht paving vote but we didn’t. We took some short term stick at the time but survived. My view is you have to ask wether this tidy up excercise of a treaty deserves a refferendum. No in my opinion. If you start conceding refferendums just because opinion polls sayy it would be popular what about the Death Penalty?

]]> By: James Graham http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-whos-going-to-give-us-a-good-reason-to-oppose-an-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-1552.html#comment-32569 James Graham Tue, 30 Oct 2007 11:59:06 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-whos-going-to-give-us-a-good-reason-to-oppose-an-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-1552.html#comment-32569 Abstention is a red herring (coming from a white elephant, natch). It is in effect a no vote, so why beat around the bush? The question for Jeremy (and others) is that if we can't get our first choice (a referendum on membership of the EU), surely the <em>next best</em> option would be a referendum on the Reform Treaty? Abstention is a red herring (coming from a white elephant, natch). It is in effect a no vote, so why beat around the bush?

The question for Jeremy (and others) is that if we can’t get our first choice (a referendum on membership of the EU), surely the next best option would be a referendum on the Reform Treaty?

]]> By: Joe Otten http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-whos-going-to-give-us-a-good-reason-to-oppose-an-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-1552.html#comment-32565 Joe Otten Tue, 30 Oct 2007 11:19:57 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-whos-going-to-give-us-a-good-reason-to-oppose-an-eu-reform-treaty-referendum-1552.html#comment-32565 I have a lot of sympathy with the position of this article. The difficulty is making the substance of the treaty, rather than the Europhobic rhetoric, the issue under discussion. If the in-or-out treaty has no chance, how about a policy of separate votes on different sections of the treaty: 1. voting changes allowing for enlargement (yes/no) 1b. More QMV. (yes/no) 2. greater transparency and role of national parliaments (yes/no) 3. limits to the power and competences of the EU (yes/no) Obviously the treaty can't be ratified unless all the votes are "yes". But at least the skeptics would have to say which they are opposing and why. My guess is that many people do not want further enlargement - at least until the current enlargement has bedded in and shaken out - and would vote against 1 as the best proxy for that. Yet, "wider not deeper" has long been the call from the almost phobic right. I have a lot of sympathy with the position of this article. The difficulty is making the substance of the treaty, rather than the Europhobic rhetoric, the issue under discussion.

If the in-or-out treaty has no chance, how about a policy of separate votes on different sections of the treaty:

1. voting changes allowing for enlargement (yes/no)
1b. More QMV. (yes/no)
2. greater transparency and role of national parliaments (yes/no)
3. limits to the power and competences of the EU (yes/no)

Obviously the treaty can’t be ratified unless all the votes are “yes”. But at least the skeptics would have to say which they are opposing and why.

My guess is that many people do not want further enlargement – at least until the current enlargement has bedded in and shaken out – and would vote against 1 as the best proxy for that. Yet, “wider not deeper” has long been the call from the almost phobic right.

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