Comments on: Opinion: will the election results spell the end for Menzies Campbell’s leadership? The answer is in your hands as much as his. http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-will-the-election-results-spell-the-end-for-menzies-campbell-the-answer-is-in-your-hands-not-his-786.html Our place to talk - an independent website for supporters of the Liberal Democrat party in the UK. Sun, 12 Feb 2012 01:36:11 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: tony hill http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-will-the-election-results-spell-the-end-for-menzies-campbell-the-answer-is-in-your-hands-not-his-786.html#comment-13545 tony hill Wed, 09 May 2007 18:29:40 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-will-the-election-results-spell-the-end-for-menzies-campbell-the-answer-is-in-your-hands-not-his-786.html#comment-13545 I thought Peter Cook's post was very constructive and sensible. We should fight the next election with Ming as the statesman, bookended by Vince and Chris Huhne, and supported by a phalanx of the younger talent in the Party. A coherent strategy on those lines would provide a contrast to the Cameron froth, and show that we could provide substance and dynamism. Looking to Ming for the dynamism is a mistake: it isn't his strong point and it wasn't why the Party elected him. I thought Peter Cook’s post was very constructive and sensible. We should fight the next election with Ming as the statesman, bookended by Vince and Chris Huhne, and supported by a phalanx of the younger talent in the Party. A coherent strategy on those lines would provide a contrast to the Cameron froth, and show that we could provide substance and dynamism. Looking to Ming for the dynamism is a mistake: it isn’t his strong point and it wasn’t why the Party elected him.

]]> By: anon http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-will-the-election-results-spell-the-end-for-menzies-campbell-the-answer-is-in-your-hands-not-his-786.html#comment-13536 anon Wed, 09 May 2007 17:05:20 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-will-the-election-results-spell-the-end-for-menzies-campbell-the-answer-is-in-your-hands-not-his-786.html#comment-13536 I think Ming would admit that one of the crucial elements of his 1987 victory was a competent fresh campaigner who supported the campaign valiantly. His name was Paul Rainger. He was mentioned by name too (the only LibDem campaigner to be mentioned by name) in Dunfermline East. What a shame he is no longer with us. I think Ming would admit that one of the crucial elements of his 1987 victory was a competent fresh campaigner who supported the campaign valiantly. His name was Paul Rainger. He was mentioned by name too (the only LibDem campaigner to be mentioned by name) in Dunfermline East. What a shame he is no longer with us.

]]> By: Hywel Morgan http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-will-the-election-results-spell-the-end-for-menzies-campbell-the-answer-is-in-your-hands-not-his-786.html#comment-13500 Hywel Morgan Wed, 09 May 2007 11:50:17 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-will-the-election-results-spell-the-end-for-menzies-campbell-the-answer-is-in-your-hands-not-his-786.html#comment-13500 "we are constrained by this berk of a leader" There are fair criticisms that can be levelled at Ming but to call him a berk is neither accurate nor fair. Ming chose to fight the then East Fife as a Liberal in the 70s (hardly optimistic times for Liberals!) and developed it into the seat he won. Bearing in mind his very good connections with the (Labour leaning) Scottish legal establishment it isn't hard to imagine than someone less principled or less committed to the ideals of liberalism would have ended up taking the Labour route as an easier way to get power. "My point was that our local election results under Ming are historically some of the best we’ve ever had" The problem is the trend since Ming became leader is standstill or backwards which is not a good position to be in. In politics your either moving ahead or your moving backwards :-) “we are constrained by this berk of a leader”

There are fair criticisms that can be levelled at Ming but to call him a berk is neither accurate nor fair.

Ming chose to fight the then East Fife as a Liberal in the 70s (hardly optimistic times for Liberals!) and developed it into the seat he won.

Bearing in mind his very good connections with the (Labour leaning) Scottish legal establishment it isn’t hard to imagine than someone less principled or less committed to the ideals of liberalism would have ended up taking the Labour route as an easier way to get power.

“My point was that our local election results under Ming are historically some of the best we’ve ever had”

The problem is the trend since Ming became leader is standstill or backwards which is not a good position to be in. In politics your either moving ahead or your moving backwards :-)

]]> By: It's not good, but it's not that bad either http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-will-the-election-results-spell-the-end-for-menzies-campbell-the-answer-is-in-your-hands-not-his-786.html#comment-13475 It's not good, but it's not that bad either Wed, 09 May 2007 07:15:23 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-will-the-election-results-spell-the-end-for-menzies-campbell-the-answer-is-in-your-hands-not-his-786.html#comment-13475 Er, Letterman - you claim first that you don't really care about Ming's popularity with the media/electorate (that you're more concerned by his ability to inspire you) - but then go on to complain that we should have been aiming for more MPs etc, and that we're constrained by the leader. His ability as leader in the context you're talking about is surely his popularity with the electorate and his ability to communicate his/our message through the media - that's the only way we're going to get more elected representatives. Even you accept that he's made some good structural changes to the party (and green tax switch/we can cut crime were to of the most coherent campaigns I've seen from us in a long time). My point was that our local election results under Ming are historically some of the best we've ever had, and that whilst there are issues that need resolving, I don't think simply swapping our leader is enough. Er, Letterman – you claim first that you don’t really care about Ming’s popularity with the media/electorate (that you’re more concerned by his ability to inspire you) – but then go on to complain that we should have been aiming for more MPs etc, and that we’re constrained by the leader.

His ability as leader in the context you’re talking about is surely his popularity with the electorate and his ability to communicate his/our message through the media – that’s the only way we’re going to get more elected representatives. Even you accept that he’s made some good structural changes to the party (and green tax switch/we can cut crime were to of the most coherent campaigns I’ve seen from us in a long time). My point was that our local election results under Ming are historically some of the best we’ve ever had, and that whilst there are issues that need resolving, I don’t think simply swapping our leader is enough.

]]> By: Letterman http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-will-the-election-results-spell-the-end-for-menzies-campbell-the-answer-is-in-your-hands-not-his-786.html#comment-13453 Letterman Wed, 09 May 2007 02:06:59 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-will-the-election-results-spell-the-end-for-menzies-campbell-the-answer-is-in-your-hands-not-his-786.html#comment-13453 'It's not good, but it's not that bad either' is also missing the point. I don't really care about Ming's popularity or lack of it with the media or the electorate although they are both undoubtedly problems. I am questioning his ability as a leader, he does not inspire me to believe he could lead me or anyone else to a better tomorrow, I certainly don't believe he has brought anything new to the leadership of the lib dems. Yes he has put in place some changes within the party structure that will be beneficial in the long term but 1) they are not enough 2) they are being implemented in a hap-hazard way without proper scrutiny (see poor attempt at a viral film 'newtorylabour' - or rather don't because its rubbish). I could go on. - The point is, at a time when the Lib Dems should have been upping their game and aiming for more MPs, MSPs and AMs than ever, we are constrained by this berk of a leader and are simply waiting and bracing ourselves for not unsubstantial losses at the next general election. END RANT. ‘It’s not good, but it’s not that bad either’ is also missing the point. I don’t really care about Ming’s popularity or lack of it with the media or the electorate although they are both undoubtedly problems. I am questioning his ability as a leader, he does not inspire me to believe he could lead me or anyone else to a better tomorrow, I certainly don’t believe he has brought anything new to the leadership of the lib dems. Yes he has put in place some changes within the party structure that will be beneficial in the long term but 1) they are not enough 2) they are being implemented in a hap-hazard way without proper scrutiny (see poor attempt at a viral film ‘newtorylabour’ – or rather don’t because its rubbish). I could go on. – The point is, at a time when the Lib Dems should have been upping their game and aiming for more MPs, MSPs and AMs than ever, we are constrained by this berk of a leader and are simply waiting and bracing ourselves for not unsubstantial losses at the next general election.

END RANT.

]]> By: Tankus http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-will-the-election-results-spell-the-end-for-menzies-campbell-the-answer-is-in-your-hands-not-his-786.html#comment-13413 Tankus Tue, 08 May 2007 18:53:42 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-will-the-election-results-spell-the-end-for-menzies-campbell-the-answer-is-in-your-hands-not-his-786.html#comment-13413 Ming appears to be the liberal version of Micheal Foot Committed , heart in the right place , honest , fairly spin free ..... But a vote looser ..... like it or not.... image and charisma are worth a lot of votes .. No mater how good the slick presentation , its still an old codger on the podium . Ming appears to be the liberal version of Micheal Foot
Committed , heart in the right place , honest , fairly spin free …..

But a vote looser ….. like it or not…. image and charisma are worth a lot of votes ..

No mater how good the slick presentation , its still an old codger on the podium .

]]> By: Peter Cook http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-will-the-election-results-spell-the-end-for-menzies-campbell-the-answer-is-in-your-hands-not-his-786.html#comment-13370 Peter Cook Tue, 08 May 2007 10:06:03 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-will-the-election-results-spell-the-end-for-menzies-campbell-the-answer-is-in-your-hands-not-his-786.html#comment-13370 Ming Campbell was the best candidate at the time we elected our Party Leader. Chris Huhne is very talented, is an excellent constituency M.P. and would be good as party leader but only gained such large support in the last leadership election due in part to the sexual pecadillos of Simon Hughes and Mark Oaten. Ming is a good leader, he just has the two problems. He is too stiff with a slightly wooden speaking manner and a tense body posture. This contributes to poor Prime Ministers questions when quality of question is suffocated by poor quality of presentation. It also contributes to occasional poor performance in interviews. Secondly he dresses badly. He should lose the ubiquitous pink, it brings up the fushed face of age and helps to make him look older. He should go for darker colours. See an image consultant and NEVER let his wife dress him. He should lose the tie and be seen dressed more informally as 'Dave' and 'Tony' so carefully contrive. Even 'Gordon' dresses down occasionly and he too has a major image problem sharing with Ming both a good intellect and an awkwardness in front of the camera and in public.. Ming has the leadership and has used it well to reinvigorate the organisation and he has the drive and the intellect to go with it. We need to see that forensic mind but we need to see it better presented. That is the sad reality of television. That is the age in which we live. It cannot be ignored. It should not mean dumping someone because of his age but it does mean making sure that the person is presented in the best possible light. Not to do so would be a failing of the party not the individual. In the glare of the general election Cameron will be more exposed as a fluffy lightweight of no real conviction and Ming could come in to his own. However if Cameron has two stiff, uncomfortable and poorly presented Party Leaders to compete with then policy and opportunism notwithstanding he will win easily. Change the Party Leader? Yes. But not the person. Just his presentation. Ming Campbell was the best candidate at the time we elected our Party Leader. Chris Huhne is very talented, is an excellent constituency M.P. and would be good as party leader but only gained such large support in the last leadership election due in part to the sexual pecadillos of Simon Hughes and Mark Oaten.
Ming is a good leader, he just has the two problems. He is too stiff with a slightly wooden speaking manner and a tense body posture. This contributes to poor Prime Ministers questions when quality of question is suffocated by poor quality of presentation. It also contributes to occasional poor performance in interviews. Secondly he dresses badly. He should lose the ubiquitous pink, it brings up the fushed face of age and helps to make him look older. He should go for darker colours. See an image consultant and NEVER let his wife dress him. He should lose the tie and be seen dressed more informally as ‘Dave’ and ‘Tony’ so carefully contrive. Even ‘Gordon’ dresses down occasionly and he too has a major image problem sharing with Ming both a good intellect and an awkwardness in front of the camera and in public..
Ming has the leadership and has used it well to reinvigorate the organisation and he has the drive and the intellect to go with it. We need to see that forensic mind but we need to see it better presented. That is the sad reality of television. That is the age in which we live. It cannot be ignored. It should not mean dumping someone because of his age but it does mean making sure that the person is presented in the best possible light. Not to do so would be a failing of the party not the individual. In the glare of the general election Cameron will be more exposed as a fluffy lightweight of no real conviction and Ming could come in to his own. However if Cameron has two stiff, uncomfortable and poorly presented Party Leaders to compete with then policy and opportunism notwithstanding he will win easily.
Change the Party Leader? Yes. But not the person. Just his presentation.

]]> By: It's not good, but it's not that bad either http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-will-the-election-results-spell-the-end-for-menzies-campbell-the-answer-is-in-your-hands-not-his-786.html#comment-13369 It's not good, but it's not that bad either Tue, 08 May 2007 09:47:17 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-will-the-election-results-spell-the-end-for-menzies-campbell-the-answer-is-in-your-hands-not-his-786.html#comment-13369 Letterman - both Kennedy & Ashdown were heavily criticised in their first few years - and neither of them managed 27% and 26% respectively in their first two local election results (27% is a record). True, there were disappointments, especially in Scotland and Wales - but we were always going to be susceptible to a Tory resurgence, in 2003 when these seats were last fought they had IDS and were still behind in the polls. The LDs relationship with the media is always fraught, and it's hard for us to set the agenda no matter how hard we try. After the 2001 general election we were on about 13% in the opinion polls - and that was with Charles at the head, and 3 years after his election as leader. Let's learn as a party from this, but lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Letterman – both Kennedy & Ashdown were heavily criticised in their first few years – and neither of them managed 27% and 26% respectively in their first two local election results (27% is a record). True, there were disappointments, especially in Scotland and Wales – but we were always going to be susceptible to a Tory resurgence, in 2003 when these seats were last fought they had IDS and were still behind in the polls. The LDs relationship with the media is always fraught, and it’s hard for us to set the agenda no matter how hard we try. After the 2001 general election we were on about 13% in the opinion polls – and that was with Charles at the head, and 3 years after his election as leader. Let’s learn as a party from this, but lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

]]> By: Letterman http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-will-the-election-results-spell-the-end-for-menzies-campbell-the-answer-is-in-your-hands-not-his-786.html#comment-13311 Letterman Mon, 07 May 2007 20:38:19 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-will-the-election-results-spell-the-end-for-menzies-campbell-the-answer-is-in-your-hands-not-his-786.html#comment-13311 It seems a lot of people posting here and apparently quite a few in the party are missing the point. Yes local campaigning is important blah, blah, blah, but any credible political party (of which the Lib Dems are currently not one) should have a leader who would (bare minimum) be atleast a capable Prime Minister or leader of the opposition. I reiterate that Ming has barely shown an ability to lead the Lib Dems, never mind a main opposition party or more importantly a Government! There are too many people left who are used to defeat and are happy to trundle along as we are, this could be a major turning ppoint for the future of the Lib Dems, you could scare away new supporters and activists (like me) who were won under Charles Kennedy and reverse the good fortunes of the party OR instead get a new leader and build on his success. At the moment the party is clearly faultering and there is still a lot left to lose in the next 12 months. It seems a lot of people posting here and apparently quite a few in the party are missing the point. Yes local campaigning is important blah, blah, blah, but any credible political party (of which the Lib Dems are currently not one) should have a leader who would (bare minimum) be atleast a capable Prime Minister or leader of the opposition. I reiterate that Ming has barely shown an ability to lead the Lib Dems, never mind a main opposition party or more importantly a Government! There are too many people left who are used to defeat and are happy to trundle along as we are, this could be a major turning ppoint for the future of the Lib Dems, you could scare away new supporters and activists (like me) who were won under Charles Kennedy and reverse the good fortunes of the party OR instead get a new leader and build on his success. At the moment the party is clearly faultering and there is still a lot left to lose in the next 12 months.

]]> By: Tim13 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-will-the-election-results-spell-the-end-for-menzies-campbell-the-answer-is-in-your-hands-not-his-786.html#comment-13309 Tim13 Mon, 07 May 2007 20:26:26 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-will-the-election-results-spell-the-end-for-menzies-campbell-the-answer-is-in-your-hands-not-his-786.html#comment-13309 I thought Ming's own comment, saying (in his own words) that he would "Go on and on and on" was singularly ill-judged, and demonstrates clearly why he is not up to the job. It was fair to do this in the early stages of his leadership, but it has frankly become obvious that he is not "cutting it" now, and he should be up to recognising that, and taking the appropriate action. Many people out there are very angry, and although Angus Huck's words about the leadership not being to blame for everything in local campaigns are very sensible (andtrue!) he is not adding anything to our local results. By the way, where is the loony Angus Huck of former years, with his large type, and off the wall comments?? I thought Ming’s own comment, saying (in his own words) that he would “Go on and on and on” was singularly ill-judged, and demonstrates clearly why he is not up to the job. It was fair to do this in the early stages of his leadership, but it has frankly become obvious that he is not “cutting it” now, and he should be up to recognising that, and taking the appropriate action. Many people out there are very angry, and although Angus Huck’s words about the leadership not being to blame for everything in local campaigns are very sensible (andtrue!) he is not adding anything to our local results.

By the way, where is the loony Angus Huck of former years, with his large type, and off the wall comments??

]]> By: Neil Craig http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-will-the-election-results-spell-the-end-for-menzies-campbell-the-answer-is-in-your-hands-not-his-786.html#comment-13283 Neil Craig Mon, 07 May 2007 14:26:11 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-will-the-election-results-spell-the-end-for-menzies-campbell-the-answer-is-in-your-hands-not-his-786.html#comment-13283 Why should anybody want to vote LD? What do they offer. "Environment, environment, environment", nanny statism, blackouts when it isn't windy, political correctness inspectors across industry, low growth, watching all drivers, the global warming swindle & to be fair, not being in Iraq but that is a declining asset. You are very vulnerable to any attempt by Cameron, whom I don't like, pointing out that he is much more liberal than you. Why should anybody want to vote LD? What do they offer.

“Environment, environment, environment”, nanny statism, blackouts when it isn’t windy, political correctness inspectors across industry, low growth, watching all drivers, the global warming swindle & to be fair, not being in Iraq but that is a declining asset.

You are very vulnerable to any attempt by Cameron, whom I don’t like, pointing out that he is much more liberal than you.

]]> By: Angus J Huck http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-will-the-election-results-spell-the-end-for-menzies-campbell-the-answer-is-in-your-hands-not-his-786.html#comment-13177 Angus J Huck Sun, 06 May 2007 18:34:19 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-will-the-election-results-spell-the-end-for-menzies-campbell-the-answer-is-in-your-hands-not-his-786.html#comment-13177 First of all, tactical voting. It has worked. When supporters of 3rd placed candidates become accustomed to voting for Lib Dem candidates over a 25 year period, very often they end up as Lib Dem supporters, not merely LibDem voters. Hence the evaporation of Labour support in Guildford and Tory support in Liverpool. In the 1983 General Election, tactical voting reduced the average Labour score in rural and outer suburban constituencies to the mid or low teens. As Labour recovered, so did support for its 3rd placed candidates, so much so by 1997 that in some cases stronger 3rd placed candidates leapfrogged Lib Dems to win outright (St Albans, Shrewsbury), or took enough votes to keep the Lib Dems out (Wells, Westbury). A little noticed feature of last Thursday's election is the virtual extinction of Labour support in non-metropolitan areas. Look at Guildford, where Labour candidates scored derisory votes in wards which were once their strongholds. Or Mendip, where there is now not a single Labour councillor, even in their formerly "strong" areas of Frome and Shepton Mallet. Is this the ultimate triumph of tactical voting? Secondly, my point about the distinction between professional and less-than-professional campaigns. Take a look at Waverley. The rout which saw the Tories sweep the board in the Surrey South-West parliamentary constituency actually ended at the Guildford constituency border. In Cranleigh East (which is in Waverley Borough, but Guildford constituency), Lib Dems held their two seats and gained the third from the Tories. So the Waverley rout looks as though it might have had more to do with a failed campaign than a failing council. If David Cameron really is about to sweep into Downing Street, then his party does have to win - and win convincingly - in places like Guildford and Mendip - and Cheadle, Hazel Grove, Solihull, Wareham and Lyme Regis !!! Now to the question of Ming's leadership. It is true that Ming has failed to make much of an impression on voters. And it is probably true that the party has failed to get across a coherent message, at least not sufficiently. But what reason have we to suppose that substituting Chris Huhne, Nick Clegg or David Laws for Ming would make any difference? That is the great imponderable. Changing leaders always runs the risk that (1) the new leader will be no better than the predecessor, and (2) the messy process will damage the party even further. If we look to the recent past, the Liberal Party did have an Old Etonian showman as its leader - Mr Jeremy Thorpe. First of all, tactical voting.

It has worked. When supporters of 3rd placed candidates become accustomed to voting for Lib Dem candidates over a 25 year period, very often they end up as Lib Dem supporters, not merely LibDem voters. Hence the evaporation of Labour support in Guildford and Tory support in Liverpool.

In the 1983 General Election, tactical voting reduced the average Labour score in rural and outer suburban constituencies to the mid or low teens. As Labour recovered, so did support for its 3rd placed candidates, so much so by 1997 that in some cases stronger 3rd placed candidates leapfrogged Lib Dems to win outright (St Albans, Shrewsbury), or took enough votes to keep the Lib Dems out (Wells, Westbury).

A little noticed feature of last Thursday’s election is the virtual extinction of Labour support in non-metropolitan areas. Look at Guildford, where Labour candidates scored derisory votes in wards which were once their strongholds. Or Mendip, where there is now not a single Labour councillor, even in their formerly “strong” areas of Frome and Shepton Mallet.

Is this the ultimate triumph of tactical voting?

Secondly, my point about the distinction between professional and less-than-professional campaigns.

Take a look at Waverley. The rout which saw the Tories sweep the board in the Surrey South-West parliamentary constituency actually ended at the Guildford constituency border. In Cranleigh East (which is in Waverley Borough, but Guildford constituency), Lib Dems held their two seats and gained the third from the Tories. So the Waverley rout looks as though it might have had more to do with a failed campaign than a failing council.

If David Cameron really is about to sweep into Downing Street, then his party does have to win – and win convincingly – in places like Guildford and Mendip – and Cheadle, Hazel Grove, Solihull, Wareham and Lyme Regis !!!

Now to the question of Ming’s leadership.

It is true that Ming has failed to make much of an impression on voters. And it is probably true that the party has failed to get across a coherent message, at least not sufficiently.

But what reason have we to suppose that substituting Chris Huhne, Nick Clegg or David Laws for Ming would make any difference?

That is the great imponderable.

Changing leaders always runs the risk that (1) the new leader will be no better than the predecessor, and (2) the messy process will damage the party even further.

If we look to the recent past, the Liberal Party did have an Old Etonian showman as its leader – Mr Jeremy Thorpe.

]]> By: tony hill http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-will-the-election-results-spell-the-end-for-menzies-campbell-the-answer-is-in-your-hands-not-his-786.html#comment-13163 tony hill Sun, 06 May 2007 15:33:13 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-will-the-election-results-spell-the-end-for-menzies-campbell-the-answer-is-in-your-hands-not-his-786.html#comment-13163 I think the point Laurence was making is that we should be trying to communicate what we stand for much more clearly rather than over-relying on an appeal to the supporters of the party in third place to vote for us because we are not the party they least prefer. I have seen very few Focuses which communicate our ideology, even subliminally, so it's hardly surprising when voters complain that they don't know what we stand for. I think the point Laurence was making is that we should be trying to communicate what we stand for much more clearly rather than over-relying on an appeal to the supporters of the party in third place to vote for us because we are not the party they least prefer. I have seen very few Focuses which communicate our ideology, even subliminally, so it’s hardly surprising when voters complain that they don’t know what we stand for.

]]> By: MatGB http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-will-the-election-results-spell-the-end-for-menzies-campbell-the-answer-is-in-your-hands-not-his-786.html#comment-13157 MatGB Sun, 06 May 2007 14:10:20 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-will-the-election-results-spell-the-end-for-menzies-campbell-the-answer-is-in-your-hands-not-his-786.html#comment-13157 Angus said: <i>(1) Where we have MPs, and in top target seats, our vote generally held up well and in some cases advanced. A professional campaign with a command line leading to Chris Rennard, made all the difference.</i> Except of course in Torbay, where there was a collapse in seats. But my looking at the votes cast and share shows that when you have a huge number of marginals, you get a large number of seats lost on a small swing. Plus, local issues, as Rob said (correctly) in the main article; having looked at the seats held there (I'll post it somewhere when I've time next week), I'm surprised we didn't lose more, there are a few wards where there is now split representation with Tories 1st and 3rd, for example. Very strange, and incredibly close. Laurence said: <i>Just one glaring reason why the whole “two-horse race” strategy complete with dodgy bar-graphs should be dropped like a hot brick. Instead of “XXX cannot win here” as an election slogan, try...</i> Disagree; under FPTP, you need to appeal to three different voters. The issues based who'll vote for us because we have better policies on local issues (and, let's face it, at times we don't). The swing voters, whoa re undecided and may vote for any candidate on any number of different issues. And the 'anti-' brigade. There are those who want to vote out, or keep out, one of the other two. FPTP creates a two party system, it's part of the way it works, so if you are a natural supporter of a third or below party, then if you really dislike one of the top two, voting for the candidate best placed to beat them/keep them out is essential. Always most visible in wards where we're first or second but third in the constituency; appealing to split ticket votes from supporters of the third place candidate is always useful, which is why we need to keep the bar graphs where they're appropriate. But they should be less prominent or dominant than appealing on the actual issues. People vote the way they do for many many different reasons. If your campaign only appeals to one type of voter, then you won't get the votes of the others. I've, personally, split my vote a number of times in the past, and may do so again in the future, depending on local situations. To win the council seat from the Tories, you sometimes need the votes of Labour supporters, and the same applies the other way around. To fail to get those votes is to lose the seat. I'd rather win, thankee muchly.. Angus said: (1) Where we have MPs, and in top target seats, our vote generally held up well and in some cases advanced. A professional campaign with a command line leading to Chris Rennard, made all the difference.

Except of course in Torbay, where there was a collapse in seats. But my looking at the votes cast and share shows that when you have a huge number of marginals, you get a large number of seats lost on a small swing.

Plus, local issues, as Rob said (correctly) in the main article; having looked at the seats held there (I’ll post it somewhere when I’ve time next week), I’m surprised we didn’t lose more, there are a few wards where there is now split representation with Tories 1st and 3rd, for example. Very strange, and incredibly close.

Laurence said: Just one glaring reason why the whole “two-horse race” strategy complete with dodgy bar-graphs should be dropped like a hot brick. Instead of “XXX cannot win here” as an election slogan, try…

Disagree; under FPTP, you need to appeal to three different voters. The issues based who’ll vote for us because we have better policies on local issues (and, let’s face it, at times we don’t). The swing voters, whoa re undecided and may vote for any candidate on any number of different issues. And the ‘anti-’ brigade. There are those who want to vote out, or keep out, one of the other two. FPTP creates a two party system, it’s part of the way it works, so if you are a natural supporter of a third or below party, then if you really dislike one of the top two, voting for the candidate best placed to beat them/keep them out is essential.

Always most visible in wards where we’re first or second but third in the constituency; appealing to split ticket votes from supporters of the third place candidate is always useful, which is why we need to keep the bar graphs where they’re appropriate.

But they should be less prominent or dominant than appealing on the actual issues.

People vote the way they do for many many different reasons. If your campaign only appeals to one type of voter, then you won’t get the votes of the others. I’ve, personally, split my vote a number of times in the past, and may do so again in the future, depending on local situations. To win the council seat from the Tories, you sometimes need the votes of Labour supporters, and the same applies the other way around. To fail to get those votes is to lose the seat. I’d rather win, thankee muchly..

]]> By: simon http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-will-the-election-results-spell-the-end-for-menzies-campbell-the-answer-is-in-your-hands-not-his-786.html#comment-13139 simon Sun, 06 May 2007 11:23:42 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-will-the-election-results-spell-the-end-for-menzies-campbell-the-answer-is-in-your-hands-not-his-786.html#comment-13139 Clearly the SNP are not in hock to old plooky face Souter! I'm no SNP apologist but i think their commitment to 'gay rights' is solid. I don't think it's wise a LibbyDem bring Van Hoogstraten into a debate. Tavish Scott (principled LibbyDem- a bit of sarcasm there) is bad enough. How did Tavish buy so many houses? Clearly the SNP are not in hock to old plooky face Souter! I’m no SNP apologist but i think their commitment to ‘gay rights’ is solid. I don’t think it’s wise a LibbyDem bring Van Hoogstraten into a debate. Tavish Scott (principled LibbyDem- a bit of sarcasm there) is bad enough. How did Tavish buy so many houses?

]]> By: Angus J Huck http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-will-the-election-results-spell-the-end-for-menzies-campbell-the-answer-is-in-your-hands-not-his-786.html#comment-13135 Angus J Huck Sun, 06 May 2007 10:46:00 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-will-the-election-results-spell-the-end-for-menzies-campbell-the-answer-is-in-your-hands-not-his-786.html#comment-13135 Simon - I guess you are talking about Brian Souter's SNP, and his front man, Smart Alec? How many SNP policies are millionaires allowed to buy? Clearly, Souter has persuaded Alec to dump his party's pro- gay rights stance. Could Nicholas Van Hoogstraten get him to do away with secure tenancies? For a suitcase full of fivers, obviously? Simon – I guess you are talking about Brian Souter’s SNP, and his front man, Smart Alec? How many SNP policies are millionaires allowed to buy? Clearly, Souter has persuaded Alec to dump his party’s pro- gay rights stance. Could Nicholas Van Hoogstraten get him to do away with secure tenancies? For a suitcase full of fivers, obviously?

]]> By: simon http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-will-the-election-results-spell-the-end-for-menzies-campbell-the-answer-is-in-your-hands-not-his-786.html#comment-13125 simon Sun, 06 May 2007 09:44:48 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-will-the-election-results-spell-the-end-for-menzies-campbell-the-answer-is-in-your-hands-not-his-786.html#comment-13125 I'll take no lessons from any LDem with regard to 'nastiness'. After all, your party excells at that in campaigning. The Ldem 'grandee' Malcolm Bruce was asked about the LD's 'nasty' campaign against Alex Salmond in Gordon. So , if the media cotton on to the fact that the Ldems are not 'clean' campaigners it won't take long for the wider electorate to do so either. If you lot are seriously considering Hunhe for leader - great. As much personality as a cardboard box, as well as the 'patronising' aura so well identifiable with a LDem. I’ll take no lessons from any LDem with regard to ‘nastiness’. After all, your party excells at that in campaigning. The Ldem ‘grandee’ Malcolm Bruce was asked about the LD’s ‘nasty’ campaign against Alex Salmond in Gordon. So , if the media cotton on to the fact that the Ldems are not ‘clean’ campaigners it won’t take long for the wider electorate to do so either. If you lot are seriously considering Hunhe for leader – great. As much personality as a cardboard box, as well as the ‘patronising’ aura so well identifiable with a LDem.

]]> By: Elizabeth Patterson http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-will-the-election-results-spell-the-end-for-menzies-campbell-the-answer-is-in-your-hands-not-his-786.html#comment-13120 Elizabeth Patterson Sun, 06 May 2007 08:11:52 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-will-the-election-results-spell-the-end-for-menzies-campbell-the-answer-is-in-your-hands-not-his-786.html#comment-13120 44. Paul Griffiths. How much I agree with your comments on Tory posters. They seem to be a rather nasty lot, not concerned with proper debate. One must add to your list their syntax and improper use of lower case. It reminds me of why I have to be Libdem, I couldn't be around with the other teams. On the original question, yes, I'm afraid wisdom alone is not enough; Ming does need to stand aside after this period of consolidation, and let Huhne/Laws/Clegg take us on. Beth 44. Paul Griffiths. How much I agree with your comments on Tory posters. They seem to be a rather nasty lot, not concerned with proper debate. One must add to your list their syntax and improper use of lower case. It reminds me of why I have to be Libdem, I couldn’t be around with the other teams.
On the original question, yes, I’m afraid wisdom alone is not enough; Ming does need to stand aside after this period of consolidation, and let Huhne/Laws/Clegg take us on.
Beth

]]> By: Laurence Boyce http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-will-the-election-results-spell-the-end-for-menzies-campbell-the-answer-is-in-your-hands-not-his-786.html#comment-13089 Laurence Boyce Sun, 06 May 2007 00:18:21 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-will-the-election-results-spell-the-end-for-menzies-campbell-the-answer-is-in-your-hands-not-his-786.html#comment-13089 That was supposed to be a hilarious joke of my own. The word "Grandad" should have been crossed out. It worked in the preview! That was supposed to be a hilarious joke of my own. The word “Grandad” should have been crossed out. It worked in the preview!

]]> By: Laurence Boyce http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-will-the-election-results-spell-the-end-for-menzies-campbell-the-answer-is-in-your-hands-not-his-786.html#comment-13088 Laurence Boyce Sun, 06 May 2007 00:15:55 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-will-the-election-results-spell-the-end-for-menzies-campbell-the-answer-is-in-your-hands-not-his-786.html#comment-13088 <i>The Tories dumped Duncan Smith because he was useless – an intellectual lightweight lacking the requisite attributes of a prime minister in waiting. The complaint against Ming is not that he is useless, it is his perceived want of appeal to the electorate. Few doubt he would make a good prime minister. What they dislike about him is his style.</i> I don’t quite agree with that, though I think that there are indeed some striking parallels between Sir Ming and Iain Duncan Smith. I don’t happen to think of either of them as intellectual lightweights, but they certainly were/are both quite useless in the top job. Duncan Smith just seemed to crumple under the mantle of leadership. His public performances tended to go flat, and he even started to lose his voice. Yet today, he’s just fine – articulate, assured, funny even – makes a joke out of what must have been a pretty dreadful time. Sir Ming’s trajectory seems strangely similar. I recall an authoritative spokesman on foreign affairs, a far cry from the glib and hollow performances to which we have become accustomed in recent times. PMQ’s are a major problem. For a start, he’s got to get off the floor of the house – drop the “frontbench” pretence – and speak from where Paddy Ashdown used to stand, slightly higher up. Then he’s got to fine some presence from somewhere; he should silence the house when he rises. And what of Sir Ming’s sense of humour? Has anyone ever seen it.? <i>Oh, and let us deplore the appalling ageist comments we hear from the trolls.</i> Absolutely, couldn’t agree more. By all means attack Grandad Sir Ming for his policies, but please leave his age out of it. The Tories dumped Duncan Smith because he was useless – an intellectual lightweight lacking the requisite attributes of a prime minister in waiting. The complaint against Ming is not that he is useless, it is his perceived want of appeal to the electorate. Few doubt he would make a good prime minister. What they dislike about him is his style.

I don’t quite agree with that, though I think that there are indeed some striking parallels between Sir Ming and Iain Duncan Smith. I don’t happen to think of either of them as intellectual lightweights, but they certainly were/are both quite useless in the top job. Duncan Smith just seemed to crumple under the mantle of leadership. His public performances tended to go flat, and he even started to lose his voice. Yet today, he’s just fine – articulate, assured, funny even – makes a joke out of what must have been a pretty dreadful time.

Sir Ming’s trajectory seems strangely similar. I recall an authoritative spokesman on foreign affairs, a far cry from the glib and hollow performances to which we have become accustomed in recent times. PMQ’s are a major problem. For a start, he’s got to get off the floor of the house – drop the “frontbench” pretence – and speak from where Paddy Ashdown used to stand, slightly higher up. Then he’s got to fine some presence from somewhere; he should silence the house when he rises. And what of Sir Ming’s sense of humour? Has anyone ever seen it.?

Oh, and let us deplore the appalling ageist comments we hear from the trolls.

Absolutely, couldn’t agree more. By all means attack Grandad Sir Ming for his policies, but please leave his age out of it.

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