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	<title>Comments on: Pre-Budget Report &#8211; the live(ish) blog</title>
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	<description>Our place to talk - an independent website for supporters of the Liberal Democrat party in the UK.</description>
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		<title>By: Clegg's Candid Fan</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/prebudget-report-the-liveish-blog-6230.html#comment-70953</link>
		<dc:creator>Clegg's Candid Fan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 13:13:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=6230#comment-70953</guid>
		<description>David

The other thing the Tories will undoubtedly do is portray the Lib Dems as Labour&#039;s accomplices in the borrowing/tax bombshell scenario.

I don&#039;t think the narrative Clegg has been trying to develop really addresses that accusation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David</p>
<p>The other thing the Tories will undoubtedly do is portray the Lib Dems as Labour&#8217;s accomplices in the borrowing/tax bombshell scenario.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think the narrative Clegg has been trying to develop really addresses that accusation.</p>
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		<title>By: David Allen</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/prebudget-report-the-liveish-blog-6230.html#comment-70949</link>
		<dc:creator>David Allen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 12:40:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=6230#comment-70949</guid>
		<description>CCF: The Tories are deliberately saying nothing at all.  Any constructive suggestion from the Tories would only allow the response, come election time, of &quot;Well, your idea wouldn&#039;t have worked either&quot;.

So the Tory election plan is simple.  Assume Britain will still be in a mess in 2010.  Blame Labour.  Blame them again.  Preach blather about sound money and your need to administer strong medicine.  Pretend that you Tories have a special courage and ability to cope with hard times, when the truth is that hard times are here anyway and we have no option but to cope.

Ignore the fact that back in 2004-2008, Cable would actually have avoided the mess, whereas Osborne would have done no better than Darling.

Discard the nice face of David Cameron, it is not needed any more.

It is simple, brutal, totally unprincipled(what would you expect?) and it will probably work a treat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CCF: The Tories are deliberately saying nothing at all.  Any constructive suggestion from the Tories would only allow the response, come election time, of &#8220;Well, your idea wouldn&#8217;t have worked either&#8221;.</p>
<p>So the Tory election plan is simple.  Assume Britain will still be in a mess in 2010.  Blame Labour.  Blame them again.  Preach blather about sound money and your need to administer strong medicine.  Pretend that you Tories have a special courage and ability to cope with hard times, when the truth is that hard times are here anyway and we have no option but to cope.</p>
<p>Ignore the fact that back in 2004-2008, Cable would actually have avoided the mess, whereas Osborne would have done no better than Darling.</p>
<p>Discard the nice face of David Cameron, it is not needed any more.</p>
<p>It is simple, brutal, totally unprincipled(what would you expect?) and it will probably work a treat.</p>
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		<title>By: asquith</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/prebudget-report-the-liveish-blog-6230.html#comment-70947</link>
		<dc:creator>asquith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 12:28:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=6230#comment-70947</guid>
		<description>&quot;The reduction of the tax-free personal allowance for earners on £100k-£140k, and it’s removal altogether for earners on over £140k&quot;

Surely this is an unambiguously Good Thing (or would be if not for the misplaced apostrophe)?

The only remotely valid argument I could think of against raising the threshold would be that it would cut taxes for the wealthy as well as the poor, &amp; may thereby reduce revenue.

Were it to be abolished for high earners, this wouldn&#039;t come up, so an obstacle to a bit of raisery is removed.

Alix, have I got this right or am I hopelessly out of my depth with all this economy shyte? :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The reduction of the tax-free personal allowance for earners on £100k-£140k, and it’s removal altogether for earners on over £140k&#8221;</p>
<p>Surely this is an unambiguously Good Thing (or would be if not for the misplaced apostrophe)?</p>
<p>The only remotely valid argument I could think of against raising the threshold would be that it would cut taxes for the wealthy as well as the poor, &amp; may thereby reduce revenue.</p>
<p>Were it to be abolished for high earners, this wouldn&#8217;t come up, so an obstacle to a bit of raisery is removed.</p>
<p>Alix, have I got this right or am I hopelessly out of my depth with all this economy shyte? <img src='http://www.libdemvoice.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Sesenco</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/prebudget-report-the-liveish-blog-6230.html#comment-70940</link>
		<dc:creator>Sesenco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 11:41:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=6230#comment-70940</guid>
		<description>I am absolutely delighted to see that Mr Darling has raised duty on tobacco. Excellent stuff!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am absolutely delighted to see that Mr Darling has raised duty on tobacco. Excellent stuff!</p>
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		<title>By: Clegg's Candid Fan</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/prebudget-report-the-liveish-blog-6230.html#comment-70920</link>
		<dc:creator>Clegg's Candid Fan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 09:54:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=6230#comment-70920</guid>
		<description>I must say I think the Tories have some gall with their complaints about the national debt. OK, so they&#039;re opposing a one-off &quot;fiscal stimulus&quot; of £15-20bn, but what&#039;s that in comparison with a projected debt of £1000bn? The problem is not the one-off stimulus, but the day-to-day workings of government during a recession - and the Tories have dissented from the government&#039;s spending plans only (literally) in the last few days. This trillion of debt isn&#039;t something that&#039;s materialised overnight. 

Surely if the Tories find it so frightening and unacceptable, they should be telling people what they intend to do about it, and there are really only two things that will affect it significantly - cut spending by tens of billions a year, or increase taxes by tens of billions a year.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I must say I think the Tories have some gall with their complaints about the national debt. OK, so they&#8217;re opposing a one-off &#8220;fiscal stimulus&#8221; of £15-20bn, but what&#8217;s that in comparison with a projected debt of £1000bn? The problem is not the one-off stimulus, but the day-to-day workings of government during a recession &#8211; and the Tories have dissented from the government&#8217;s spending plans only (literally) in the last few days. This trillion of debt isn&#8217;t something that&#8217;s materialised overnight. </p>
<p>Surely if the Tories find it so frightening and unacceptable, they should be telling people what they intend to do about it, and there are really only two things that will affect it significantly &#8211; cut spending by tens of billions a year, or increase taxes by tens of billions a year.</p>
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		<title>By: Hywel Morgan</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/prebudget-report-the-liveish-blog-6230.html#comment-70855</link>
		<dc:creator>Hywel Morgan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 00:55:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=6230#comment-70855</guid>
		<description>Why with borrowing at record levels do all pensioners get an extra &quot;one-off&quot; payment of £60.  AFAICS that goes to all pensioners regardless of income.

There are pensioners living in poverty.  There are also a lot of pensioners who are very comfortably off having benefitted from record stock market growth (augmented by Dividend Tax Credit), high annunity rates and/or the benefits of final salary pension schemes.

As an example my mother has an income from her pensions (her own and the widows from my dads) greater than I&#039;ve ever earned in a year.  She also effectively pays 10% less tax than I ever did as it doesn&#039;t get NI.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why with borrowing at record levels do all pensioners get an extra &#8220;one-off&#8221; payment of £60.  AFAICS that goes to all pensioners regardless of income.</p>
<p>There are pensioners living in poverty.  There are also a lot of pensioners who are very comfortably off having benefitted from record stock market growth (augmented by Dividend Tax Credit), high annunity rates and/or the benefits of final salary pension schemes.</p>
<p>As an example my mother has an income from her pensions (her own and the widows from my dads) greater than I&#8217;ve ever earned in a year.  She also effectively pays 10% less tax than I ever did as it doesn&#8217;t get NI.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Leunig</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/prebudget-report-the-liveish-blog-6230.html#comment-70849</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Leunig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 00:05:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=6230#comment-70849</guid>
		<description>Stop press! Big news from the PBR for gardeners! Page 143 of the PBR tells us that the government is going to put out for consultation the idea that the eradication of Japanese Knotweed will qualify for Land Remediation Relief.

Even as LDVs keenest garden, and someone who has wrestled with JK in my previous garden I find it hard to think that including this line was a good use of PBR paper...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stop press! Big news from the PBR for gardeners! Page 143 of the PBR tells us that the government is going to put out for consultation the idea that the eradication of Japanese Knotweed will qualify for Land Remediation Relief.</p>
<p>Even as LDVs keenest garden, and someone who has wrestled with JK in my previous garden I find it hard to think that including this line was a good use of PBR paper&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Leunig</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/prebudget-report-the-liveish-blog-6230.html#comment-70847</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Leunig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 23:42:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=6230#comment-70847</guid>
		<description>CCF: thank you.

Sadly the para does not seem to copy over, otherwise I would quote it here. Having read it, I am even less convinced that the system makes sense. 

It says that you lose £1 of allowance for every £2 of income. Since each £1 of allowance is worth 40p to a HRT that seems to me to imply a tax rise of 20p per £1 earned, which gives a tax rate of 40 + 1.5 + 20 = 61.5p. 

Also, I am not sure if the personal allowance for NICs is withdrawn, or just the PI for income tax. It is possible that the person earning their first £ over £100k loses 40 + 1.5 + 20 + 0.75 - 62.25p

This continues until you have lost half the allowance. Since the allowance is c. £6.5k by then, this means that you will pay 40% + 1.5% below £100k, then 61.5% between 100 and 106.5, then 41.5% between 106.5 and 140, then 61.5% between 140 and 145, then 66.5 (45 + 1.5 + 20%) between £145 and £146.5, and then 45% above £146.5k.

While I agree that exact tax rates for people earning £145-146.5k are not that important economically, the poor design of the system does not reflect well on its authors. 

I particularly liked the chapter title: &quot;Helping people fairly&quot;. Presumably the alternative was &quot;Helping people unfairly&quot;, or perhaps &quot;Hindering people fairly&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CCF: thank you.</p>
<p>Sadly the para does not seem to copy over, otherwise I would quote it here. Having read it, I am even less convinced that the system makes sense. </p>
<p>It says that you lose £1 of allowance for every £2 of income. Since each £1 of allowance is worth 40p to a HRT that seems to me to imply a tax rise of 20p per £1 earned, which gives a tax rate of 40 + 1.5 + 20 = 61.5p. </p>
<p>Also, I am not sure if the personal allowance for NICs is withdrawn, or just the PI for income tax. It is possible that the person earning their first £ over £100k loses 40 + 1.5 + 20 + 0.75 &#8211; 62.25p</p>
<p>This continues until you have lost half the allowance. Since the allowance is c. £6.5k by then, this means that you will pay 40% + 1.5% below £100k, then 61.5% between 100 and 106.5, then 41.5% between 106.5 and 140, then 61.5% between 140 and 145, then 66.5 (45 + 1.5 + 20%) between £145 and £146.5, and then 45% above £146.5k.</p>
<p>While I agree that exact tax rates for people earning £145-146.5k are not that important economically, the poor design of the system does not reflect well on its authors. </p>
<p>I particularly liked the chapter title: &#8220;Helping people fairly&#8221;. Presumably the alternative was &#8220;Helping people unfairly&#8221;, or perhaps &#8220;Hindering people fairly&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Clegg's Candid Fan</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/prebudget-report-the-liveish-blog-6230.html#comment-70828</link>
		<dc:creator>Clegg's Candid Fan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 22:13:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=6230#comment-70828</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s the first bullet point in section 5.8 on page 3 here:
http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/pbr08_chapter5_179.pdf

I agree it seems a very weird way of going about things.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s the first bullet point in section 5.8 on page 3 here:<br />
<a href="http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/pbr08_chapter5_179.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/pbr08_chapter5_179.pdf</a></p>
<p>I agree it seems a very weird way of going about things.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Leunig</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/prebudget-report-the-liveish-blog-6230.html#comment-70823</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Leunig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 21:50:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=6230#comment-70823</guid>
		<description>CCF: If you are right then the total tax rate for people earning between 107k and 140k is 45.5% and the rate for people earning between 140 and 147k would be 60% (40+1.5+1.3/7). You might be right, but that would be very weird indeed. 

I shall read tomorrow&#039;s FT with interest. (Academic interest that is, as I don&#039;t earn enough for this to matter to me personally!)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CCF: If you are right then the total tax rate for people earning between 107k and 140k is 45.5% and the rate for people earning between 140 and 147k would be 60% (40+1.5+1.3/7). You might be right, but that would be very weird indeed. </p>
<p>I shall read tomorrow&#8217;s FT with interest. (Academic interest that is, as I don&#8217;t earn enough for this to matter to me personally!)</p>
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		<title>By: Clegg's Candid Fan</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/prebudget-report-the-liveish-blog-6230.html#comment-70820</link>
		<dc:creator>Clegg's Candid Fan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 21:32:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=6230#comment-70820</guid>
		<description>&quot;Withdrawing £2.6k over £40k of earners is 6.5%, i.e. tax between 100 and 140 will be 40% tax, 6.5% allowance withdrawal, and 1.5% NI, for a total of 48%.&quot;

I may have it wrong, but I thought only half of this £2.6K was to be withdrawn for those earning between about £107K and £140K, and the full amount for those earning more than about £147K, with sliding scales for £100K-107K and £140K-147K. It all seems very complicated ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Withdrawing £2.6k over £40k of earners is 6.5%, i.e. tax between 100 and 140 will be 40% tax, 6.5% allowance withdrawal, and 1.5% NI, for a total of 48%.&#8221;</p>
<p>I may have it wrong, but I thought only half of this £2.6K was to be withdrawn for those earning between about £107K and £140K, and the full amount for those earning more than about £147K, with sliding scales for £100K-107K and £140K-147K. It all seems very complicated &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Leunig</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/prebudget-report-the-liveish-blog-6230.html#comment-70812</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Leunig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 20:55:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=6230#comment-70812</guid>
		<description>From the thread here, the employee NI rises look progressive and red-tape reducing (more people out of NI). That&#039;s good, at least. 

The EU 15% is a minimum, not a target: we can raise it if we want. 

One thing to note is the very high tax rate between £100 and £140k. If the tax allowance for 09-10 is £6.5k, then it is worth £2.6k a year to higher rate taxpayers (not £1.2k). Withdrawing £2.6k over £40k of earners is 6.5%, i.e. tax between 100 and 140 will be 40% tax, 6.5% allowance withdrawal, and 1.5% NI, for a total of 48%. That is pretty high, and it seems odd to levy a higher rate of tax for people earning £110k than for those earning £150k.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From the thread here, the employee NI rises look progressive and red-tape reducing (more people out of NI). That&#8217;s good, at least. </p>
<p>The EU 15% is a minimum, not a target: we can raise it if we want. </p>
<p>One thing to note is the very high tax rate between £100 and £140k. If the tax allowance for 09-10 is £6.5k, then it is worth £2.6k a year to higher rate taxpayers (not £1.2k). Withdrawing £2.6k over £40k of earners is 6.5%, i.e. tax between 100 and 140 will be 40% tax, 6.5% allowance withdrawal, and 1.5% NI, for a total of 48%. That is pretty high, and it seems odd to levy a higher rate of tax for people earning £110k than for those earning £150k.</p>
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		<title>By: Clegg's Candid Fan</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/prebudget-report-the-liveish-blog-6230.html#comment-70803</link>
		<dc:creator>Clegg's Candid Fan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 17:41:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=6230#comment-70803</guid>
		<description>&quot;The net is £3,780m, which is five and a half times bigger than the £670m from the higher rate tax increase.&quot;

Superficially the leaks made this package sound rather similar to the Lib Dem proposals, albeit with the increases in taxation deferred for a couple of years. But it seems that these increases are quite a bit smaller than the £16bn or so increased taxation on the &quot;wealthy&quot; that the Lib Dems are advocating.

And at 13 months, the VAT reduction really is very temporary.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The net is £3,780m, which is five and a half times bigger than the £670m from the higher rate tax increase.&#8221;</p>
<p>Superficially the leaks made this package sound rather similar to the Lib Dem proposals, albeit with the increases in taxation deferred for a couple of years. But it seems that these increases are quite a bit smaller than the £16bn or so increased taxation on the &#8220;wealthy&#8221; that the Lib Dems are advocating.</p>
<p>And at 13 months, the VAT reduction really is very temporary.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Gadsden</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/prebudget-report-the-liveish-blog-6230.html#comment-70801</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Gadsden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 17:29:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=6230#comment-70801</guid>
		<description>PT is currently (2009-10) £110pw, which is £5,270 pa

2009-10 Personal Allowance is £6,475, so that&#039;s the equivalent of about £125pw

Presumably, that&#039;s what will change, which means an effective NIC cut of £132.55 annually, but then an increase of 0.5% above that.

My calculations say this evens out at £26,510 above the threshold, ie £32,985 pa, though I&#039;m not taking into account the employer&#039;s NI increases, which is a real &quot;stealth&quot; tax.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PT is currently (2009-10) £110pw, which is £5,270 pa</p>
<p>2009-10 Personal Allowance is £6,475, so that&#8217;s the equivalent of about £125pw</p>
<p>Presumably, that&#8217;s what will change, which means an effective NIC cut of £132.55 annually, but then an increase of 0.5% above that.</p>
<p>My calculations say this evens out at £26,510 above the threshold, ie £32,985 pa, though I&#8217;m not taking into account the employer&#8217;s NI increases, which is a real &#8220;stealth&#8221; tax.</p>
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		<title>By: Darrell</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/prebudget-report-the-liveish-blog-6230.html#comment-70800</link>
		<dc:creator>Darrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 17:25:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=6230#comment-70800</guid>
		<description>Richard,

Thanks for that again. To my mind this relates to a point that Osborne raised about it being about the political, not the economic, cycle...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard,</p>
<p>Thanks for that again. To my mind this relates to a point that Osborne raised about it being about the political, not the economic, cycle&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Gadsden</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/prebudget-report-the-liveish-blog-6230.html#comment-70799</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Gadsden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 17:19:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=6230#comment-70799</guid>
		<description>Here it is:

&quot;a 0.5 per cent increase in the employee, employer and self-employed rates
of NICs from April 2011, alongside an increase above indexation in the point
at which individuals start to pay NICs – known as the primary threshold – so
that it is aligned with the personal allowance. This will ensure that the fiscal
consolidation is broad based, without affecting those over state pension age,
who do not pay NICs. These changes will be introduced from 2011, when the
economy is forecast to be growing above trend rates and real incomes are
growing strongly.&quot;

p.85</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here it is:</p>
<p>&#8220;a 0.5 per cent increase in the employee, employer and self-employed rates<br />
of NICs from April 2011, alongside an increase above indexation in the point<br />
at which individuals start to pay NICs – known as the primary threshold – so<br />
that it is aligned with the personal allowance. This will ensure that the fiscal<br />
consolidation is broad based, without affecting those over state pension age,<br />
who do not pay NICs. These changes will be introduced from 2011, when the<br />
economy is forecast to be growing above trend rates and real incomes are<br />
growing strongly.&#8221;</p>
<p>p.85</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Gadsden</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/prebudget-report-the-liveish-blog-6230.html#comment-70796</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Gadsden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 17:09:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=6230#comment-70796</guid>
		<description>Details of everything are at &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/prebud_pbr08_repindex.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Treasury Website&lt;/a&gt;

The chart I&#039;m looking at (p. 194) shows &quot;Align the NICs primary threshold with personal allowance in 2011-12&quot; as costing £1,610m pa which is coming out of £2,050m from increasing basic NIC from 11% to 11.5%, £440m for increasing higher NIC from 1% to 1.5%, £2,650m for increasing employer NICs, £170m for self-employed basic rate and £80m for self-employed basic rate.

The net is £3,780m, which is five and a half times bigger than the £670m from the higher rate tax increase.

And I was wrong earlier; the threshold increase is delayed to 2011-12 alongside the rates increase.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Details of everything are at <a href="http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/prebud_pbr08_repindex.htm" rel="nofollow">The Treasury Website</a></p>
<p>The chart I&#8217;m looking at (p. 194) shows &#8220;Align the NICs primary threshold with personal allowance in 2011-12&#8243; as costing £1,610m pa which is coming out of £2,050m from increasing basic NIC from 11% to 11.5%, £440m for increasing higher NIC from 1% to 1.5%, £2,650m for increasing employer NICs, £170m for self-employed basic rate and £80m for self-employed basic rate.</p>
<p>The net is £3,780m, which is five and a half times bigger than the £670m from the higher rate tax increase.</p>
<p>And I was wrong earlier; the threshold increase is delayed to 2011-12 alongside the rates increase.</p>
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		<title>By: Benjamin</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/prebudget-report-the-liveish-blog-6230.html#comment-70795</link>
		<dc:creator>Benjamin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 17:09:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=6230#comment-70795</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s a hellish marriage of Old Labour and New Labour.

Old Labour - A return to the politics of envy.
The only changes he&#039;s made to income tax is to take money away from the rich, without any attempt to give it back to the poor by giving them the rate cut that would actually help (in fact what with the extra NI he&#039;s giving low earners a disproportionate tax INcrease). Traditional populist toff-baiting.

New Labour - Pandering to business and Middle England.
The VAT rate cut will not affect the low earner. All the things the average person on low wages spends his/her money on will stay the same - food and childrens clothing are already 0%-rated and domestic fuel is discounted to 5% VAT anyway. Tobacco, alcohol and petrol are having their duty increased to compensate for the VAT cut.

If the 2.5% drop in VAT will have any effect it will be to help businesses selling disgressionary items like electronics, clothing and cars (and then not by much) and it will assist those on middle and higher incomes who can already afford to buy such items and give them a little christmas present.

I don&#039;t resent letting the comfortably-off have a bit of a breather but surely the priority in a downturn should be the people most likely to suffer - and there is nothing in this PBR for them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s a hellish marriage of Old Labour and New Labour.</p>
<p>Old Labour &#8211; A return to the politics of envy.<br />
The only changes he&#8217;s made to income tax is to take money away from the rich, without any attempt to give it back to the poor by giving them the rate cut that would actually help (in fact what with the extra NI he&#8217;s giving low earners a disproportionate tax INcrease). Traditional populist toff-baiting.</p>
<p>New Labour &#8211; Pandering to business and Middle England.<br />
The VAT rate cut will not affect the low earner. All the things the average person on low wages spends his/her money on will stay the same &#8211; food and childrens clothing are already 0%-rated and domestic fuel is discounted to 5% VAT anyway. Tobacco, alcohol and petrol are having their duty increased to compensate for the VAT cut.</p>
<p>If the 2.5% drop in VAT will have any effect it will be to help businesses selling disgressionary items like electronics, clothing and cars (and then not by much) and it will assist those on middle and higher incomes who can already afford to buy such items and give them a little christmas present.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t resent letting the comfortably-off have a bit of a breather but surely the priority in a downturn should be the people most likely to suffer &#8211; and there is nothing in this PBR for them.</p>
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		<title>By: Darrell</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/prebudget-report-the-liveish-blog-6230.html#comment-70786</link>
		<dc:creator>Darrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 16:43:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=6230#comment-70786</guid>
		<description>Thanks for that Richard...Cable is up now...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for that Richard&#8230;Cable is up now&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Gadsden</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/prebudget-report-the-liveish-blog-6230.html#comment-70774</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Gadsden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 16:20:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=6230#comment-70774</guid>
		<description>Nope, you only pay NICs on income above the PET (which is the new name for the LEL).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nope, you only pay NICs on income above the PET (which is the new name for the LEL).</p>
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