Comments on: That Telegraph story: true or false (or somewhere inbetween)? http://www.libdemvoice.org/that-telegraph-story-true-or-false-or-somewhere-inbetween-2725.html Our place to talk - an independent website for supporters of the Liberal Democrat party in the UK. Sat, 11 Feb 2012 08:55:56 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Matthew Huntbach http://www.libdemvoice.org/that-telegraph-story-true-or-false-or-somewhere-inbetween-2725.html#comment-49302 Matthew Huntbach Wed, 21 May 2008 12:21:18 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=2725#comment-49302 <i> I thought the whole point of Nick Cleggs conference speech was that we would only go into coalition with either party based on proportional representation? Is he going back on this? </i> Er, not only why don't you read the whole thread, but why don't you read the original article? The main point about the original article was it suggested Clegg would NOT enter a coalition with the Conservatives, but rather would allow a Conservative minority government to be formed by not voting against it in a vote of confidence. Thereafter he would reserve the right for our Parliamentary party to veto any legislation that government proposed which our party considered unacceptable. A coalition implies collective responsibility which in effect would silence us on public criticism of the Conservatives in return for greater behind closed doors influence. In the long run, our support for multi-party politics means we have to consider such arrangements. In the short run, whether it really was Clegg who made the proposals outlined in the Telegraph, they strike me as realistic in the current climate.
I thought the whole point of Nick Cleggs conference speech was that we would only go into coalition with either party based on proportional representation?

Is he going back on this?

Er, not only why don’t you read the whole thread, but why don’t you read the original article? The main point about the original article was it suggested Clegg would NOT enter a coalition with the Conservatives, but rather would allow a Conservative minority government to be formed by not voting against it in a vote of confidence. Thereafter he would reserve the right for our Parliamentary party to veto any legislation that government proposed which our party considered unacceptable.

A coalition implies collective responsibility which in effect would silence us on public criticism of the Conservatives in return for greater behind closed doors influence. In the long run, our support for multi-party politics means we have to consider such arrangements. In the short run, whether it really was Clegg who made the proposals outlined in the Telegraph, they strike me as realistic in the current climate.

]]> By: James Graham http://www.libdemvoice.org/that-telegraph-story-true-or-false-or-somewhere-inbetween-2725.html#comment-49295 James Graham Wed, 21 May 2008 11:26:01 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=2725#comment-49295 Andy - Clegg never said any of that in his last conference speech. What he said that he wouldn't join a Labour or a Tory government and wants a new system of politics. He didn't say anything about the possible price of a coalition. That was what Ming was banging on about in <em>his</em> spring 2007 conference speech. Much good it did him. Andy – Clegg never said any of that in his last conference speech. What he said that he wouldn’t join a Labour or a Tory government and wants a new system of politics. He didn’t say anything about the possible price of a coalition. That was what Ming was banging on about in his spring 2007 conference speech. Much good it did him.

]]> By: Andy http://www.libdemvoice.org/that-telegraph-story-true-or-false-or-somewhere-inbetween-2725.html#comment-49294 Andy Wed, 21 May 2008 10:58:04 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=2725#comment-49294 Probably should have read the whole thread before posting... sounds like he has already rebutted it. Good. Probably should have read the whole thread before posting… sounds like he has already rebutted it. Good.

]]> By: Andy http://www.libdemvoice.org/that-telegraph-story-true-or-false-or-somewhere-inbetween-2725.html#comment-49293 Andy Wed, 21 May 2008 10:56:58 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=2725#comment-49293 I thought the whole point of Nick Cleggs conference speech was that we would only go into coalition with either party based on proportional representation? Is he going back on this? If so a lot of people, including myself will be very angry. Siding with a Tory government would be electoral suicide without negotiating for PR first. Not that the Tories would ever concede that anyway. They are snakes in the grass and would simply do what Labour did to us in Scotland - blame any failures on us whilst taking the credit for the governments acheivements. I hope this isn't true and if it isn't, why hasn't there been a rebuttal from Nick Clegg? I thought the whole point of Nick Cleggs conference speech was that we would only go into coalition with either party based on proportional representation?

Is he going back on this? If so a lot of people, including myself will be very angry.

Siding with a Tory government would be electoral suicide without negotiating for PR first. Not that the Tories would ever concede that anyway. They are snakes in the grass and would simply do what Labour did to us in Scotland – blame any failures on us whilst taking the credit for the governments acheivements.

I hope this isn’t true and if it isn’t, why hasn’t there been a rebuttal from Nick Clegg?

]]> By: Matthew Huntbach http://www.libdemvoice.org/that-telegraph-story-true-or-false-or-somewhere-inbetween-2725.html#comment-49291 Matthew Huntbach Wed, 21 May 2008 10:25:01 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=2725#comment-49291 I didn't say it was unprincipled, I said that's the line that would be used against us by our opponents. I didn’t say it was unprincipled, I said that’s the line that would be used against us by our opponents.

]]> By: Darrell http://www.libdemvoice.org/that-telegraph-story-true-or-false-or-somewhere-inbetween-2725.html#comment-49287 Darrell Wed, 21 May 2008 09:43:25 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=2725#comment-49287 How on earth is it unprincipled to say we will represent the people who voted for us by actually negotiating the best deal for the policies we want enacted?? How on earth is it unprincipled to say we will represent the people who voted for us by actually negotiating the best deal for the policies we want enacted??

]]> By: Matthew Huntbach http://www.libdemvoice.org/that-telegraph-story-true-or-false-or-somewhere-inbetween-2725.html#comment-49285 Matthew Huntbach Wed, 21 May 2008 09:40:32 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=2725#comment-49285 But the original article DIDN'T specify Labour or Conservatives before the election. It specified Conservative if they were the largest party, and leaves unsaid, but I think assumed, Labour if they were the largest party. Of course, it has been spun by those who have an interest in spinning it that way as "cuddling up to the Tories", but what is the alternative? If our position was anything less favourable to the Conservatives it could, with justification, be spun as "cuddling up to Labour". We are left with a legacy from the Ashdown era of a supposition that if it came to the crunch we would side with Labour. We need to get rid of this - and I write as someone who is naturally inclined to Labour rather than the Conservatives if I'm forced to choose between the two. It seems to me that "allow the largest party to form a government" is the best line. If we said "we will engage in talks to see which party is more willing to make a deal with us", we'll be accused of unprincipled horse-trading. But the original article DIDN’T specify Labour or Conservatives before the election. It specified Conservative if they were the largest party, and leaves unsaid, but I think assumed, Labour if they were the largest party. Of course, it has been spun by those who have an interest in spinning it that way as “cuddling up to the Tories”, but what is the alternative? If our position was anything less favourable to the Conservatives it could, with justification, be spun as “cuddling up to Labour”. We are left with a legacy from the Ashdown era of a supposition that if it came to the crunch we would side with Labour. We need to get rid of this – and I write as someone who is naturally inclined to Labour rather than the Conservatives if I’m forced to choose between the two.

It seems to me that “allow the largest party to form a government” is the best line. If we said “we will engage in talks to see which party is more willing to make a deal with us”, we’ll be accused of unprincipled horse-trading.

]]> By: Darrell http://www.libdemvoice.org/that-telegraph-story-true-or-false-or-somewhere-inbetween-2725.html#comment-49235 Darrell Tue, 20 May 2008 17:21:42 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=2725#comment-49235 I dont think there is an awful lot of disagreement to be honest James. I think there is actually alot of commen ground around the kind of equidistance that Stephen spelt out in his article where the disagreement stems from is that this artcile was not the kind of thing that people want to see precisely because it is slanted too far one way. My thing is that it would be wrong to specify either Labour or Conservatives before the election because it would only be after an election that we would be able to judge the two criteria i set out in the other thread. Make them come to us and do what we want not the other way around...go to them cap in hand and offer 'supply and confidence' without any kind of reward.... I dont think there is an awful lot of disagreement to be honest James. I think there is actually alot of commen ground around the kind of equidistance that Stephen spelt out in his article where the disagreement stems from is that this artcile was not the kind of thing that people want to see precisely because it is slanted too far one way.

My thing is that it would be wrong to specify either Labour or Conservatives before the election because it would only be after an election that we would be able to judge the two criteria i set out in the other thread. Make them come to us and do what we want not the other way around…go to them cap in hand and offer ‘supply and confidence’ without any kind of reward….

]]> By: James Graham http://www.libdemvoice.org/that-telegraph-story-true-or-false-or-somewhere-inbetween-2725.html#comment-49234 James Graham Tue, 20 May 2008 17:04:47 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=2725#comment-49234 I agree with that, at least. I agree with that, at least.

]]> By: Darrell http://www.libdemvoice.org/that-telegraph-story-true-or-false-or-somewhere-inbetween-2725.html#comment-49233 Darrell Tue, 20 May 2008 17:00:12 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=2725#comment-49233 Stephen, I can see why you would say that but the way the article was framed I am glad it is being denied because it was not framed in an 'equidistant' manner at all...so, either a denial or a denial with clarification was called for...as it is a denial is better than saying it was true.... Stephen,

I can see why you would say that but the way the article was framed I am glad it is being denied because it was not framed in an ‘equidistant’ manner at all…so, either a denial or a denial with clarification was called for…as it is a denial is better than saying it was true….

]]> By: James Graham http://www.libdemvoice.org/that-telegraph-story-true-or-false-or-somewhere-inbetween-2725.html#comment-49230 James Graham Tue, 20 May 2008 16:54:43 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=2725#comment-49230 Indeed. Indeed.

]]> By: Stephen Tall http://www.libdemvoice.org/that-telegraph-story-true-or-false-or-somewhere-inbetween-2725.html#comment-49229 Stephen Tall Tue, 20 May 2008 16:52:43 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=2725#comment-49229 Sigh... if Nick's being wholly truthful that the Telegraph story is entirely false it'll be such a shame. I thought, at last, the party could agree a line - no coalition, equidistance, respect the wishes of the public - that would be generally popular and certainly understandable. If we're just back to the "maximum votes, maximum seats" line we can expect the "What would you do if...?" question to plague us for the next two years. Sigh… if Nick’s being wholly truthful that the Telegraph story is entirely false it’ll be such a shame. I thought, at last, the party could agree a line – no coalition, equidistance, respect the wishes of the public – that would be generally popular and certainly understandable.

If we’re just back to the “maximum votes, maximum seats” line we can expect the “What would you do if…?” question to plague us for the next two years.

]]> By: James Graham http://www.libdemvoice.org/that-telegraph-story-true-or-false-or-somewhere-inbetween-2725.html#comment-49228 James Graham Tue, 20 May 2008 16:21:59 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=2725#comment-49228 ...which begs the question: in that case, what would we do in the event of a hung parliament? …which begs the question: in that case, what would we do in the event of a hung parliament?

]]> By: Andy Mayer http://www.libdemvoice.org/that-telegraph-story-true-or-false-or-somewhere-inbetween-2725.html#comment-49221 Andy Mayer Tue, 20 May 2008 13:46:13 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=2725#comment-49221 I've just come from Nick's tax launch speech at Policy Exchange where he addressed a question about this with the entirely unambiguous response that there was no truth at all in the Telegraph story. I’ve just come from Nick’s tax launch speech at Policy Exchange where he addressed a question about this with the entirely unambiguous response that there was no truth at all in the Telegraph story.

]]> By: Matthew Huntbach http://www.libdemvoice.org/that-telegraph-story-true-or-false-or-somewhere-inbetween-2725.html#comment-49219 Matthew Huntbach Tue, 20 May 2008 13:18:20 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=2725#comment-49219 So "Letters from a Tory" what would YOU say Clegg should do in a situation where no party has an overall majority, but the Conservatives have the largest numbers of seats? If allowing the Queen to appoint Cameron as PM and not immediately bringing down the government is "cuddling up to the Tories" what should Clegg do which you would not classify as "cuddling up"? Isn't the real problem this stupid language used by people like "Letters"? So “Letters from a Tory” what would YOU say Clegg should do in a situation where no party has an overall majority, but the Conservatives have the largest numbers of seats? If allowing the Queen to appoint Cameron as PM and not immediately bringing down the government is “cuddling up to the Tories” what should Clegg do which you would not classify as “cuddling up”?

Isn’t the real problem this stupid language used by people like “Letters”?

]]> By: Joe Otten http://www.libdemvoice.org/that-telegraph-story-true-or-false-or-somewhere-inbetween-2725.html#comment-49203 Joe Otten Tue, 20 May 2008 10:33:53 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=2725#comment-49203 LFAT, "If there is any truth in all this, ..." I see even tories have trouble believing the Telegraph this time. With no direct quotes, this is just spin on a previously established position that applies to both other parties. LFAT,

“If there is any truth in all this, …”

I see even tories have trouble believing the Telegraph this time.

With no direct quotes, this is just spin on a previously established position that applies to both other parties.

]]> By: Dan http://www.libdemvoice.org/that-telegraph-story-true-or-false-or-somewhere-inbetween-2725.html#comment-49198 Dan Tue, 20 May 2008 10:12:36 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=2725#comment-49198 I suspect given the timing it's an attempt by the Tory leadership to prop up the Labour vote in a certain Cheshire town.. The last thing they want is the Labour vote to collapse in C&N to us - and they think by playing the 'Tory country cousins card' some Labour voters will hold their noses and stick with their lot. A collapse of the Labour vote to the Lib Dems could see us coming through and pipping them at the post. I suspect given the timing it’s an attempt by the Tory leadership to prop up the Labour vote in a certain Cheshire town..

The last thing they want is the Labour vote to collapse in C&N to us – and they think by playing the ‘Tory country cousins card’ some Labour voters will hold their noses and stick with their lot. A collapse of the Labour vote to the Lib Dems could see us coming through and pipping them at the post.

]]> By: Oranjepan http://www.libdemvoice.org/that-telegraph-story-true-or-false-or-somewhere-inbetween-2725.html#comment-49197 Oranjepan Tue, 20 May 2008 10:08:15 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=2725#comment-49197 Letters, that is an illigitimate claim coming from you and anyway there aren't any cuddly Conservatives. Letters, that is an illigitimate claim coming from you and anyway there aren’t any cuddly Conservatives.

]]> By: Letters From A Tory http://www.libdemvoice.org/that-telegraph-story-true-or-false-or-somewhere-inbetween-2725.html#comment-49195 Letters From A Tory Tue, 20 May 2008 09:52:36 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=2725#comment-49195 If there is any truth in all this, Clegg should hang his head in shame. What is he doing talking this openly about cuddling up to the Conservatives when he should be focussing on making the Lib Dems relevant again? http://lettersfromatory.wordpress.com If there is any truth in all this, Clegg should hang his head in shame. What is he doing talking this openly about cuddling up to the Conservatives when he should be focussing on making the Lib Dems relevant again?

http://lettersfromatory.wordpress.com

]]> By: Chris Paul http://www.libdemvoice.org/that-telegraph-story-true-or-false-or-somewhere-inbetween-2725.html#comment-49172 Chris Paul Tue, 20 May 2008 08:19:12 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=2725#comment-49172 Clegg Kite IMO. Clegg Kite IMO.

]]>