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	<title>Comments on: The Independent View: Three myths about PR &#8211; and one uncomfortable truth</title>
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	<description>Our place to talk - an independent website for supporters of the Liberal Democrat party in the UK.</description>
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		<title>By: Jason O Mahony &#187; Blog Archive &#187; A Guide for my British readers as to how Proportional Representation works.</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-independent-view-three-myths-about-pr-and-one-uncomfortable-truth-17716.html#comment-111888</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason O Mahony &#187; Blog Archive &#187; A Guide for my British readers as to how Proportional Representation works.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Mar 2010 14:14:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=17716#comment-111888</guid>
		<description>[...] A little something I wrote for the Lib Dem Voice website a while back. Here.  [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] A little something I wrote for the Lib Dem Voice website a while back. Here.  [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Frank H Little</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-independent-view-three-myths-about-pr-and-one-uncomfortable-truth-17716.html#comment-106328</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank H Little</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:26:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=17716#comment-106328</guid>
		<description>Matthew, perhaps the John Cleese classic explanation of STV could be given more publicity: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qWDPauV_p4&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qWDPauV_p4&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matthew, perhaps the John Cleese classic explanation of STV could be given more publicity: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qWDPauV_p4" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qWDPauV_p4</a></p>
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		<title>By: KL</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-independent-view-three-myths-about-pr-and-one-uncomfortable-truth-17716.html#comment-106268</link>
		<dc:creator>KL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jan 2010 16:46:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=17716#comment-106268</guid>
		<description>@Benjamin - or, indeed, how Scotland elects its local authorities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Benjamin &#8211; or, indeed, how Scotland elects its local authorities.</p>
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		<title>By: Benjamin</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-independent-view-three-myths-about-pr-and-one-uncomfortable-truth-17716.html#comment-106265</link>
		<dc:creator>Benjamin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jan 2010 16:16:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=17716#comment-106265</guid>
		<description>Or indeed how part of our own country arrives at its government.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Or indeed how part of our own country arrives at its government.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew Huntbach</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-independent-view-three-myths-about-pr-and-one-uncomfortable-truth-17716.html#comment-106240</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew Huntbach</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jan 2010 10:25:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=17716#comment-106240</guid>
		<description>It is perhaps a little strange that English journalists and media commentators know and can report in great deal on the elaborate system whereby the USA arrives at its government, but are entirely ignorant and report almost nothing on how the only country we have a land border with arrives at its government.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is perhaps a little strange that English journalists and media commentators know and can report in great deal on the elaborate system whereby the USA arrives at its government, but are entirely ignorant and report almost nothing on how the only country we have a land border with arrives at its government.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew Huntbach</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-independent-view-three-myths-about-pr-and-one-uncomfortable-truth-17716.html#comment-106239</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew Huntbach</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jan 2010 10:22:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=17716#comment-106239</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;
The British public’s opposition to STV is staggering
&lt;/i&gt;

It is? What proportion of the British public know what STV is, let alone know what it is to the point of having a view on it? Given that most Labour and Conservative politicians are clueless on it, even those invited by national media to express their view on proportional representation, are ignorant of it to the point where if it was anything else it&#039;d be a matter of humiliating embarrassment to expose such ignorance, I hardly suppose the average British citizen to have carefully weighed up the pros and cons and decided against. Or even to have carefully read the rubbish written about it by ignorant Labour and Conservative politicians and ignorant members of the commentariat, and come to an unfounded conclusion against. 

Of course, there is a highish proportion of people in these isles who HAVE experienced STV and thus do know something of what it is. But it would be too much to expect those who run our media commentary to think of calling on such people to express a view, when you could could instead pay an ignorant English MP or a star media commentator who thinks innumeracy is something to boast of to comment instead.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i><br />
The British public’s opposition to STV is staggering<br />
</i></p>
<p>It is? What proportion of the British public know what STV is, let alone know what it is to the point of having a view on it? Given that most Labour and Conservative politicians are clueless on it, even those invited by national media to express their view on proportional representation, are ignorant of it to the point where if it was anything else it&#8217;d be a matter of humiliating embarrassment to expose such ignorance, I hardly suppose the average British citizen to have carefully weighed up the pros and cons and decided against. Or even to have carefully read the rubbish written about it by ignorant Labour and Conservative politicians and ignorant members of the commentariat, and come to an unfounded conclusion against. </p>
<p>Of course, there is a highish proportion of people in these isles who HAVE experienced STV and thus do know something of what it is. But it would be too much to expect those who run our media commentary to think of calling on such people to express a view, when you could could instead pay an ignorant English MP or a star media commentator who thinks innumeracy is something to boast of to comment instead.</p>
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		<title>By: David L.G.</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-independent-view-three-myths-about-pr-and-one-uncomfortable-truth-17716.html#comment-106217</link>
		<dc:creator>David L.G.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jan 2010 01:43:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=17716#comment-106217</guid>
		<description>Main reason why Fianna Fail stays in government so much is not because of the electoral system (at least compared with first past the post)  because a large plurality of people keep voting for them if irland used FTPP then there would be a continuous Fianna Fail majority including in those rare instances in which a coalition is formed to exlude them. 

Furthermore if we&#039;d had STV in this country we&#039;d have been able to get rid of the conservatives ten years earlier and I doubt that scotland could elect anything but a labour governmant under FPTP.

There may be instanses where a more propotianate system would allow more more anti Fianna Fial coalitions but it would be very narrow and potentialy unstable if it meant Fine Gael and Labour relying on several far left parties. A more proportianate system could also mean that the first two problems meantioned in the article may become an issue.Ther may be a case for tincreasing the maximum seat size to sixand trying to reduce the number of three seat constituensies (or whatever it is you call them) in ireland but otherwise I should think it was proportionate enough.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Main reason why Fianna Fail stays in government so much is not because of the electoral system (at least compared with first past the post)  because a large plurality of people keep voting for them if irland used FTPP then there would be a continuous Fianna Fail majority including in those rare instances in which a coalition is formed to exlude them. </p>
<p>Furthermore if we&#8217;d had STV in this country we&#8217;d have been able to get rid of the conservatives ten years earlier and I doubt that scotland could elect anything but a labour governmant under FPTP.</p>
<p>There may be instanses where a more propotianate system would allow more more anti Fianna Fial coalitions but it would be very narrow and potentialy unstable if it meant Fine Gael and Labour relying on several far left parties. A more proportianate system could also mean that the first two problems meantioned in the article may become an issue.Ther may be a case for tincreasing the maximum seat size to sixand trying to reduce the number of three seat constituensies (or whatever it is you call them) in ireland but otherwise I should think it was proportionate enough.</p>
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		<title>By: Geoffrey Payne</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-independent-view-three-myths-about-pr-and-one-uncomfortable-truth-17716.html#comment-106200</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoffrey Payne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 22:40:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=17716#comment-106200</guid>
		<description>STV is the best system for the reasons stated.
No need to bother with expensive primaries. You can vote for your preferred party, but if one of the candidates has his nose in the trough and you don&#039;t like it, don&#039;t vote for him, vote for the other candidate.
Or if you want to vote for the social liberal, but not the economic liberal, you can do that too.
STV is a British invention, it was championed by JS Mill.
We should push as hard as we can for this voting system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>STV is the best system for the reasons stated.<br />
No need to bother with expensive primaries. You can vote for your preferred party, but if one of the candidates has his nose in the trough and you don&#8217;t like it, don&#8217;t vote for him, vote for the other candidate.<br />
Or if you want to vote for the social liberal, but not the economic liberal, you can do that too.<br />
STV is a British invention, it was championed by JS Mill.<br />
We should push as hard as we can for this voting system.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Griffiths</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-independent-view-three-myths-about-pr-and-one-uncomfortable-truth-17716.html#comment-106196</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Griffiths</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 21:52:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=17716#comment-106196</guid>
		<description>Another Mark: Actually, the main argument in favour of STV is that it increases voter choice. Greater proportionality is a bonus. The debate is framed in terms of PR for tactical reasons.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another Mark: Actually, the main argument in favour of STV is that it increases voter choice. Greater proportionality is a bonus. The debate is framed in terms of PR for tactical reasons.</p>
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		<title>By: Hugh</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-independent-view-three-myths-about-pr-and-one-uncomfortable-truth-17716.html#comment-106192</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 20:28:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=17716#comment-106192</guid>
		<description>Evidence of recent decades suggests that changing FPTP would require a seismic political change.  A hung parliament might be this, but this is most likely if LDs vote Tory in Lab/Con micromarginals but Labour where they lead by &gt;10%.  Incidentally, this complements a Lib Dem strategy of trying to pick-off the weaker locally of the two larger parties with the eventual aim of capturing second-place, thus ultimately allowing a shot at winning the seat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Evidence of recent decades suggests that changing FPTP would require a seismic political change.  A hung parliament might be this, but this is most likely if LDs vote Tory in Lab/Con micromarginals but Labour where they lead by &gt;10%.  Incidentally, this complements a Lib Dem strategy of trying to pick-off the weaker locally of the two larger parties with the eventual aim of capturing second-place, thus ultimately allowing a shot at winning the seat.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Suffield</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-independent-view-three-myths-about-pr-and-one-uncomfortable-truth-17716.html#comment-106186</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Suffield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 17:42:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=17716#comment-106186</guid>
		<description>Just to underscore the major advantage of proportional representation:

&lt;i&gt;Almost every voter has somebody in Parliament that they voted for, who they can expect to represent their views&lt;/i&gt;

Compare this to the current UK system, which is &quot;roughly one half of the voters did not vote for their MP, and can expect to get brushed off when raising issues that split down party lines&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just to underscore the major advantage of proportional representation:</p>
<p><i>Almost every voter has somebody in Parliament that they voted for, who they can expect to represent their views</i></p>
<p>Compare this to the current UK system, which is &#8220;roughly one half of the voters did not vote for their MP, and can expect to get brushed off when raising issues that split down party lines&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter1919</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-independent-view-three-myths-about-pr-and-one-uncomfortable-truth-17716.html#comment-106185</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter1919</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 17:20:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=17716#comment-106185</guid>
		<description>A good article if unfortunatly largely preaching to the converted here on LDV</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A good article if unfortunatly largely preaching to the converted here on LDV</p>
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		<title>By: whelan</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-independent-view-three-myths-about-pr-and-one-uncomfortable-truth-17716.html#comment-106184</link>
		<dc:creator>whelan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 16:55:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=17716#comment-106184</guid>
		<description>Very good article. Thanks for the interesting read.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very good article. Thanks for the interesting read.</p>
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		<title>By: Another Mark</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-independent-view-three-myths-about-pr-and-one-uncomfortable-truth-17716.html#comment-106183</link>
		<dc:creator>Another Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 16:54:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=17716#comment-106183</guid>
		<description>The main argument for STV in the UK is that the current system is not proportional, and therefore unfair and undemocratic. However, if people in Ireland think STV isn&#039;t proportional enough, what&#039;s the point of trying to get it adopted here rather than a properly proportional system?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The main argument for STV in the UK is that the current system is not proportional, and therefore unfair and undemocratic. However, if people in Ireland think STV isn&#8217;t proportional enough, what&#8217;s the point of trying to get it adopted here rather than a properly proportional system?</p>
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		<title>By: Robson</title>
		<link>http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-independent-view-three-myths-about-pr-and-one-uncomfortable-truth-17716.html#comment-106182</link>
		<dc:creator>Robson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 16:48:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.libdemvoice.org/?p=17716#comment-106182</guid>
		<description>Ahhh, Jason. Wish I&#039;d met you when I was in Dublin Lisbon campaigning with a few ex PDers.

The British public&#039;s opposition to STV is staggering, though Ireland&#039;s system is definitely not perfect - the way it&#039;s almost impossible to get rid of Fianna Fail and the way some seats can always reliably be returned just on a party vote. At least we have it in Scotland now, slightly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ahhh, Jason. Wish I&#8217;d met you when I was in Dublin Lisbon campaigning with a few ex PDers.</p>
<p>The British public&#8217;s opposition to STV is staggering, though Ireland&#8217;s system is definitely not perfect &#8211; the way it&#8217;s almost impossible to get rid of Fianna Fail and the way some seats can always reliably be returned just on a party vote. At least we have it in Scotland now, slightly.</p>
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