Comments on: The power of blogs, or the weakness of journalism? http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-power-of-blogs-or-the-weakness-of-journalism-1470.html Our place to talk - an independent website for supporters of the Liberal Democrat party in the UK. Sun, 12 Feb 2012 01:36:11 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: John D http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-power-of-blogs-or-the-weakness-of-journalism-1470.html#comment-31144 John D Fri, 12 Oct 2007 21:50:34 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-power-of-blogs-or-the-weakness-of-journalism-1470.html#comment-31144 I regularly have discussions with my 11yo son about how cruel children can be and how wrong it is to pick on people because of their disabilities. I believe this is a fundamental liberal value. It is totally inappropriate and literally childish to use this type of language in a grown up debate about the future of our party. I respect the people who think I am wrong in calling for a debate on the leadership, I don't think they are mentally deficient. As a member of the party for almost exactly 34 years I believe my views are as valid as the next persons. It is all very well to be a clever dick and pick up on typos or insult your colleagues but this just shows the weakness of your arguments. I talked to my wife about this tonight. She is not a member but always votes for us and does loads of work (delivery, Ears etc) and she said "Its a shame Ming has become such a figure of fun." Nuff said. I regularly have discussions with my 11yo son about how cruel children can be and how wrong it is to pick on people because of their disabilities. I believe this is a fundamental liberal value. It is totally inappropriate and literally childish to use this type of language in a grown up debate about the future of our party. I respect the people who think I am wrong in calling for a debate on the leadership, I don’t think they are mentally deficient. As a member of the party for almost exactly 34 years I believe my views are as valid as the next persons. It is all very well to be a clever dick and pick up on typos or insult your colleagues but this just shows the weakness of your arguments.
I talked to my wife about this tonight. She is not a member but always votes for us and does loads of work (delivery, Ears etc) and she said “Its a shame Ming has become such a figure of fun.” Nuff said.

]]> By: James Graham http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-power-of-blogs-or-the-weakness-of-journalism-1470.html#comment-31128 James Graham Fri, 12 Oct 2007 19:41:50 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-power-of-blogs-or-the-weakness-of-journalism-1470.html#comment-31128 That isn't clear at all. What has a Chinese celebrity chef got to do with the Lib Dem leadership? That isn’t clear at all. What has a Chinese celebrity chef got to do with the Lib Dem leadership?

]]> By: Nich Starling- Norfolk Blogger http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-power-of-blogs-or-the-weakness-of-journalism-1470.html#comment-31125 Nich Starling- Norfolk Blogger Fri, 12 Oct 2007 19:30:08 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-power-of-blogs-or-the-weakness-of-journalism-1470.html#comment-31125 Graeme. I supported Ming in the election and I want hom, to go. I think that is clear enough for anyone to recognise. Graeme. I supported Ming in the election and I want hom, to go. I think that is clear enough for anyone to recognise.

]]> By: James Graham http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-power-of-blogs-or-the-weakness-of-journalism-1470.html#comment-31098 James Graham Fri, 12 Oct 2007 10:03:02 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-power-of-blogs-or-the-weakness-of-journalism-1470.html#comment-31098 I don't think it is illiberal to point out someone's mental incapacity - it's just helpful advice. It isn't Stephen's fault that so few people have taken it. The bottom line is that if those with their knives out want another act of regicide, they are going a particularly ham-fisted and self-destructive way about it. They have an oddly Pavlovian response - whenever Iain Dale and other Conservatives click their fingers with a view to undermine the party, they jump to it. My advice to those who want to get rid of Ming is this: shut up and start plotting. Conspire. Set up a secret email group. Develop networks with like minded individuals - particularly MPs. Only when you have reached a critical mass should you make your play. Otherwise all you're doing is trashing your own brand. Meanwhile, by all means keep openly talking about the future of the party - just debate it in terms that go beyond personality politics. No doubt I will be branded as illiberal for issuing this helpful advice and those headbangers out there will simply continue marching to the Tories' tune. But at least, in the later years when the party has completely dissolved into a mess of squabbling, you can't say you haven't been warned. I don’t think it is illiberal to point out someone’s mental incapacity – it’s just helpful advice. It isn’t Stephen’s fault that so few people have taken it.

The bottom line is that if those with their knives out want another act of regicide, they are going a particularly ham-fisted and self-destructive way about it. They have an oddly Pavlovian response – whenever Iain Dale and other Conservatives click their fingers with a view to undermine the party, they jump to it.

My advice to those who want to get rid of Ming is this: shut up and start plotting. Conspire. Set up a secret email group. Develop networks with like minded individuals – particularly MPs. Only when you have reached a critical mass should you make your play. Otherwise all you’re doing is trashing your own brand.

Meanwhile, by all means keep openly talking about the future of the party – just debate it in terms that go beyond personality politics.

No doubt I will be branded as illiberal for issuing this helpful advice and those headbangers out there will simply continue marching to the Tories’ tune. But at least, in the later years when the party has completely dissolved into a mess of squabbling, you can’t say you haven’t been warned.

]]> By: Paul Walter http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-power-of-blogs-or-the-weakness-of-journalism-1470.html#comment-31097 Paul Walter Fri, 12 Oct 2007 09:54:37 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-power-of-blogs-or-the-weakness-of-journalism-1470.html#comment-31097 I haven't called anyone anything and I welcome comments. How do we get up from 11%? I really don't think changing leader would do any good whatsover. I have heard one comment against Ming on the doorstep in 18 months. I haven’t called anyone anything and I welcome comments. How do we get up from 11%? I really don’t think changing leader would do any good whatsover. I have heard one comment against Ming on the doorstep in 18 months.

]]> By: John D http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-power-of-blogs-or-the-weakness-of-journalism-1470.html#comment-31096 John D Fri, 12 Oct 2007 09:44:15 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-power-of-blogs-or-the-weakness-of-journalism-1470.html#comment-31096 Paul The people who are raising a genuine concern about the leadership have been called “an utter fool” and “deluded to the point of mental incapacity”, by various people on this site who are not behaving in a very liberal way. I do feel that many of the posts coming back from the pro Ming lobby are not addressing the issues of how we get up from 11% and away from the "your leader is not very good" comments from friend and foe alike. Answering with, "Ming won the election and isn't going anywhere", is not good enough. Personally I have tried to move this conversation on to the members forum a few times precisely to avoid stuff like today's Telegraph story, but I was shouted down on that too. Paul

The people who are raising a genuine concern about the leadership have been called “an utter fool” and “deluded to the point of mental incapacity”, by various people on this site who are not behaving in a very liberal way. I do feel that many of the posts coming back from the pro Ming lobby are not addressing the issues of how we get up from 11% and away from the “your leader is not very good” comments from friend and foe alike. Answering with, “Ming won the election and isn’t going anywhere”, is not good enough.
Personally I have tried to move this conversation on to the members forum a few times precisely to avoid stuff like today’s Telegraph story, but I was shouted down on that too.

]]> By: Paul Walter http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-power-of-blogs-or-the-weakness-of-journalism-1470.html#comment-31095 Paul Walter Fri, 12 Oct 2007 09:24:29 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-power-of-blogs-or-the-weakness-of-journalism-1470.html#comment-31095 I didn't actually know but thank you very much for pointing out where they got them from, I couldn't find them on a search. You don't have to get nasty ("selective blindness and deafness"). Some of us are actualyl human you know. I didn’t actually know but thank you very much for pointing out where they got them from, I couldn’t find them on a search. You don’t have to get nasty (“selective blindness and deafness”). Some of us are actualyl human you know.

]]> By: John D http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-power-of-blogs-or-the-weakness-of-journalism-1470.html#comment-31094 John D Fri, 12 Oct 2007 09:21:00 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-power-of-blogs-or-the-weakness-of-journalism-1470.html#comment-31094 Paul Selective blindness and deafness is a symptom of the pro Ming lobby. You know where they found the comments, http://www.libdemvoice.org/lib-dem-mp-we-have-to-think-about-where-we-want-to-be-in-18-months-time-1459.html as you posted there yourself. I have said my piece there and would just say almost ditto (member since 73, councillor for 3) to crewegwyn@16 above. Paul

Selective blindness and deafness is a symptom of the pro Ming lobby. You know where they found the comments,
http://www.libdemvoice.org/lib-dem-mp-we-have-to-think-about-where-we-want-to-be-in-18-months-time-1459.html
as you posted there yourself. I have said my piece there and would just say almost ditto (member since 73, councillor for 3) to crewegwyn@16 above.

]]> By: Paul Walter http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-power-of-blogs-or-the-weakness-of-journalism-1470.html#comment-31093 Paul Walter Fri, 12 Oct 2007 08:52:32 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-power-of-blogs-or-the-weakness-of-journalism-1470.html#comment-31093 So is it this thread which the Telegraph is referring to when it says today: "The unease has spread to the party's grassroots who have swamped Liberal Voice, the most popular supporters' website, with messages demanding the resignation of Sir Menzies." ? "Swamped"? I applaud their searching skills as I am darned if I can find anyone on this site saying we are facing "serious meltdown" or "we are failing on all counts" or "he cannot lead the party". Are they using a site which is actually called "Liberal Voice", as they call it, in a paralell universe? So is it this thread which the Telegraph is referring to when it says today:

“The unease has spread to the party’s grassroots who have swamped Liberal Voice, the most popular supporters’ website, with messages demanding the resignation of Sir Menzies.” ?

“Swamped”?

I applaud their searching skills as I am darned if I can find anyone on this site saying we are facing “serious meltdown” or “we are failing on all counts” or “he cannot lead the party”. Are they using a site which is actually called “Liberal Voice”, as they call it, in a paralell universe?

]]> By: nigelashton http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-power-of-blogs-or-the-weakness-of-journalism-1470.html#comment-31082 nigelashton Thu, 11 Oct 2007 23:57:39 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-power-of-blogs-or-the-weakness-of-journalism-1470.html#comment-31082 I'm sorry, but the Party voted for Ming to be Leader, it should stick with him until after the general election. Nothing has happened that wasn't entirely predictable. I’m sorry, but the Party voted for Ming to be Leader, it should stick with him until after the general election. Nothing has happened that wasn’t entirely predictable.

]]> By: crewegwyn http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-power-of-blogs-or-the-weakness-of-journalism-1470.html#comment-31075 crewegwyn Thu, 11 Oct 2007 21:24:28 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-power-of-blogs-or-the-weakness-of-journalism-1470.html#comment-31075 Does 24 years as a councillor, and 28 as a member make me a "senior" Lib Dem? Maybe not. But if anybody asks - No I don't think Ming's done well No, it's not his age No, I didn't vote for him (I NEVER vote for the winner - I was a Beith/ Rendell/ Huhne voter!) Yes, I think he should make a dignified departure Yes, we have several very credible potential leaders Now I must go to write a press release re our incompetent Tory council leaders . . . . Does 24 years as a councillor, and 28 as a member make me a “senior” Lib Dem? Maybe not.

But if anybody asks -

No I don’t think Ming’s done well

No, it’s not his age

No, I didn’t vote for him (I NEVER vote for the winner – I was a Beith/ Rendell/ Huhne voter!)

Yes, I think he should make a dignified departure

Yes, we have several very credible potential leaders

Now I must go to write a press release re our incompetent Tory council leaders . . . .

]]> By: Elizabeth Patterson http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-power-of-blogs-or-the-weakness-of-journalism-1470.html#comment-31071 Elizabeth Patterson Thu, 11 Oct 2007 20:06:00 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-power-of-blogs-or-the-weakness-of-journalism-1470.html#comment-31071 I write to say to Jo Hayes how much I agree with the sentiments expressed in her blog; I think it quite brave of her because I have noticed that the Voice site has attack dogs, tho' some are only pups, who vociferously pounce on anyone who criticises the party establishment. Of course Ed Davey would not be doing his job if he did not plant a few bloggers to rubbish or abuse anyone who steps out of line. How can they possibly know it is a "tiny minority" of dissatisfied activists? Who has taken a poll? I have for many years been a devotedly loyal activist, councillor, Cowley Street volunteer, conference steward, and by-election worker, with thousands of leaflet miles to my credit. Yet since Charles went somehow the spark has gone. This desite the fact that we now have a stronger and more credible set of party policies than we ever had before; and we are in a genuine three party situation since first Paddy and then Charles brought us up to 62 MPs. I think it is our Ian Duncan Smith period; the Indy is quite right about the delayed GE giving an opportunity for us to get our leadership comfortably resolved; we could use the John Major method. And since we are bound by the rules to re-elect our leader after a GE it wouldn't seem to matter whether we do it in 2008 rather than post election in 2009. Elizabeth I write to say to Jo Hayes how much I agree with the sentiments expressed in her blog; I think it quite brave of her because I have noticed that the Voice site has attack dogs, tho’ some are only pups, who vociferously pounce on anyone who criticises the party establishment. Of course Ed Davey would not be doing his job if he did not plant a few bloggers to rubbish or abuse anyone who steps out of line.
How can they possibly know it is a “tiny minority” of dissatisfied activists?
Who has taken a poll?

I have for many years been a devotedly loyal activist, councillor, Cowley Street volunteer, conference steward, and by-election worker, with thousands of leaflet miles to my credit. Yet since Charles went somehow the spark has gone.
This desite the fact that we now have a stronger and more credible set of party policies than we ever had before; and we are in a genuine three party situation since first Paddy and then Charles brought us up to 62 MPs.

I think it is our Ian Duncan Smith period; the Indy is quite right about the delayed GE giving an opportunity for us to get our leadership comfortably resolved; we could use the John Major method. And since we are bound by the rules to re-elect our leader after a GE it wouldn’t seem to matter whether we do it in 2008 rather than post election in 2009.
Elizabeth

]]> By: Martin Land http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-power-of-blogs-or-the-weakness-of-journalism-1470.html#comment-31070 Martin Land Thu, 11 Oct 2007 20:05:53 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-power-of-blogs-or-the-weakness-of-journalism-1470.html#comment-31070 Bloggers will blog; meanwhile, ordinary members just don't renew their membership. Deliverers say they can't deliver any more. And the Tories start to display their usual arrogance, reminding the electorate of why they dumped them in the first place. We must not play the media game. If one thing is dropping more rapidly than the turnout at elections, it's the circulation of national newspapers! Bloggers will blog; meanwhile, ordinary members just don’t renew their membership. Deliverers say they can’t deliver any more. And the Tories start to display their usual arrogance, reminding the electorate of why they dumped them in the first place.
We must not play the media game. If one thing is dropping more rapidly than the turnout at elections, it’s the circulation of national newspapers!

]]> By: leowatkins http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-power-of-blogs-or-the-weakness-of-journalism-1470.html#comment-31068 leowatkins Thu, 11 Oct 2007 18:10:51 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-power-of-blogs-or-the-weakness-of-journalism-1470.html#comment-31068 In a belated response to Graeme - some of us were a tad late to the Lib Dem party and therefore didn't get a chance to vote. Pissed off we are about it, too. In a belated response to Graeme – some of us were a tad late to the Lib Dem party and therefore didn’t get a chance to vote. Pissed off we are about it, too.

]]> By: Paul Walter http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-power-of-blogs-or-the-weakness-of-journalism-1470.html#comment-31057 Paul Walter Thu, 11 Oct 2007 15:02:36 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-power-of-blogs-or-the-weakness-of-journalism-1470.html#comment-31057 10 Warrior. No-one is going to take action and Ming won't stand down. Forget it. 10 Warrior. No-one is going to take action and Ming won’t stand down. Forget it.

]]> By: Angus Huck http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-power-of-blogs-or-the-weakness-of-journalism-1470.html#comment-31056 Angus Huck Thu, 11 Oct 2007 14:56:40 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-power-of-blogs-or-the-weakness-of-journalism-1470.html#comment-31056 No 10: Neither is likely to happen, and they certainly won't just because you command it. Nor will Chris Rennard depart at your behest. He will take us through many more election triumphs yet. No 10: Neither is likely to happen, and they certainly won’t just because you command it. Nor will Chris Rennard depart at your behest. He will take us through many more election triumphs yet.

]]> By: Warrior http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-power-of-blogs-or-the-weakness-of-journalism-1470.html#comment-31054 Warrior Thu, 11 Oct 2007 14:48:26 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-power-of-blogs-or-the-weakness-of-journalism-1470.html#comment-31054 The time has come to take action. The problem lies at our Leader's door. He will need to stand down with dignity or be unceremoniously evicted. The time has come to take action. The problem lies at our Leader’s door. He will need to stand down with dignity or be unceremoniously evicted.

]]> By: Andy Mayer http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-power-of-blogs-or-the-weakness-of-journalism-1470.html#comment-31053 Andy Mayer Thu, 11 Oct 2007 14:47:23 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-power-of-blogs-or-the-weakness-of-journalism-1470.html#comment-31053 The media also generate stories from letters to newspapers from individual activists and noises off in response to inquiries on the phone. So this is not really new behaviour Stephen, simply a new source of commentary. The media also generate stories from letters to newspapers from individual activists and noises off in response to inquiries on the phone. So this is not really new behaviour Stephen, simply a new source of commentary.

]]> By: David Morton http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-power-of-blogs-or-the-weakness-of-journalism-1470.html#comment-31052 David Morton Thu, 11 Oct 2007 14:29:41 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-power-of-blogs-or-the-weakness-of-journalism-1470.html#comment-31052 Another excellent post Stephen. I think the real problem is celebrity culture and the 24 hour media. The ammount of available media to fill has grown massively and the "Big Brother" effect of instant voting and trviality has entrenched personality politics. I've thought for a while that the next "Leadership Crisis " will be triggered by the blogs. If hypothetically 10 to 15 senior bloggers came aganist ming (or any leader) now the blue touch paper would be lit. Frightening if you think about the fact that any old party member can use blogger and pontificate at will. So the answer to the question in your title is "Both?" Another excellent post Stephen. I think the real problem is celebrity culture and the 24 hour media. The ammount of available media to fill has grown massively and the “Big Brother” effect of instant voting and trviality has entrenched personality politics.

I’ve thought for a while that the next “Leadership Crisis ” will be triggered by the blogs. If hypothetically 10 to 15 senior bloggers came aganist ming (or any leader) now the blue touch paper would be lit. Frightening if you think about the fact that any old party member can use blogger and pontificate at will. So the answer to the question in your title is “Both?”

]]> By: Peter McGrath http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-power-of-blogs-or-the-weakness-of-journalism-1470.html#comment-31050 Peter McGrath Thu, 11 Oct 2007 14:23:21 +0000 http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-power-of-blogs-or-the-weakness-of-journalism-1470.html#comment-31050 NCTJ pre-entry newspaper journalism course: 'Never use unattributed quotes. It's lazy, sloppy journalism unless you absolutely have to.' But they were teaching us about local newspaper reporting. Maybe it becomes the glowing pinnacle of journalistic practice when employed by a national rag. NCTJ pre-entry newspaper journalism course: ‘Never use unattributed quotes. It’s lazy, sloppy journalism unless you absolutely have to.’

But they were teaching us about local newspaper reporting. Maybe it becomes the glowing pinnacle of journalistic practice when employed by a national rag.

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