May statement open thread.

Well, the crest is still on the lectern. So no General Election then.


And she said absolutely nothing new. Blaming anyone but herself for the mess.

Basically, no say for the people, no participation in the European elections. She wants to be out by June 30th.

She says that MPs haven’t said what they want. Not sure how much clearer our lot could have been – People’s vote…That at least is achievable, even if the Labour unicorns are not.

Not sure I understand what on earth the point was in all of that statement.

It’s so clear that she is the one who is not prepared to listen.

I remember a Conservative PM forced to quit for not listening about the poll tax….

Vince’s comments:

The Prime Minister says the public is tired of Brexit. If she wants to end the soap opera she has one clear way to do so: concede a People’s Vote.

A short extension on the pretence her deal is acceptable to Parliament will achieve nothing. Liberal Democrats and the Remain movement will not be blackmailed into supporting the deal today, tomorrow or in June.

Opposition parties stand ready to make a public vote happen and to ensure the people have the final say on her deal versus Remain. For Leave and Remain voters alike this is now the only way forward.

* Caron Lindsay is Editor of Liberal Democrat Voice and blogs at Caron's Musings

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  • Eddie Sammon 20th Mar '19 - 9:56pm

    Time to revoke Article 50.

  • John Marriott 20th Mar '19 - 10:15pm

    The PM addressed the nation tonight. Why, oh why can’t she use an autocue? Her continually looking down at her notes smacks of insincerity. She was effectively copying Ted Heath who, back in 1974, asked the nation “Who governs?” And the answer came back via two general elections “Not you, mate”.

    Corbyn’s behaviour tonight is not much better. Is this what people expected when they voted to “take back control”?

  • David Becket 20th Mar '19 - 10:29pm

    Editorial note – this comment has been removed due to its inappropriate nature…

  • Yeovil Yokel 20th Mar '19 - 10:32pm

    If only our PM had a fraction of Jacinda Adern’s human spirit.

  • Richard Underhill 20th Mar '19 - 11:00pm

    Jeremy Corbyn (Labour) has walked out of a meeting in which Chuka Umunna (ex-labour now TIG) was present.

  • Richard Underhill 20th Mar '19 - 11:20pm

    Theresa May’s statement on tv this pm is insulting to MPs of all parties and none.
    This is no way to behave. This no way to win the support of her electorate,
    Is this the highway for her?
    Would she support the next prime minister?
    Would he/she give her a job?
    Would it matter?

  • Peter Watson 21st Mar '19 - 2:01am

    “Not sure how much clearer our lot could have been – People’s vote…”
    Even if we ignore Tim Farron’s comments against a second referendum before the 2016 result and Vince Cable’s afterwards, I’m not convinced that Lib Dem messages have been particularly clear considering the importance of this issue.

    For understandable reasons, the party has often seemed to fall between the two stools of wanting to appear to respect the result of the 2016 referendum while not really wanting to respect it at all! 😉 ! This undermines both positions to a degree, and a second referendum often seems to be prioritised as an end in itself rather than a means to an end.

    I think this damaged the Lib Dem 2017 Election campaign, a prime example being Tim Farron’s inability to give Andrew Neill a straight answer even on this defining policy for the party.

    Perhaps it would have been better if the party had made it clear from the outset that it was campaigning for an “exit from Brexit” (and even better if it had started making the positive case for keeping all of the good stuff about being in the EU) and been explicit that revoking article 50 or a second referendum were both simply potential ways to achieve that goal.

  • I’m afraid the time for a “People’s Vote” has come and gone. The original concept was to put a Brexit deal to a popular referendum (with it being quite vague what would happen if the deal lost). But now it is clear that there is no deal, and so there is nothing to vote on. One might argue for a vote between No Deal and Remain (these are, at this point, the only real choices) but that is not the People’s Vote concept. As Ms May’s deal has been repeatedly decisively rejected in Parliament, in effect the situation is as if the People’s Vote had already taken place. So now what?

  • John Chandler 21st Mar '19 - 5:51am

    Agreed. We’re past People’s Vote territory, and Labour have arguably already scuppered the whole thing anyway by abstaining from the recent vote.

    It’s time to revoke Article 50 while we still have time. We can do it any time before the 29th March deadline, there’s no penalty, and no way for other countries to block/veto the decision. Yes, some Leavers are going to be furious, but they’re already furious about every option put forward so far on how to leave the EU.

    Revoke Article 50, then set up some form of independent, cross-party team to come up with a realistic plan that can be put back to the country. Revoking doesn’t mean ruling out leaving (keeping the “will of the people” nonsense in check, hopefully), it’s just a means to give everyone some breathing space to sort out this whole mess.

  • The official Revoke petition – has added over 300,000 signatures since May’s statement:

  • Arnold Kiel 21st Mar '19 - 6:22am

    May does not surprise anymore, the real news is Corbyn. We know he is a Brexiter, but to perpetuate a Tory-government for that purpose is a new level of Labour-ERG complicity. By concurring with her June 30 limit he supports her WA-approval or no deal threat, and throws away his best bet yet to remove her and trigger a GE.

  • People of Britain. I have given the MPs a good telling off. They have been very naughty boys and girls. They have wasted a lot of my time. They have refused to do what I tell them. We must now get on with serious work which is what you want and I’m on your side. Amen.!

  • Andrew McCaig 21st Mar '19 - 7:00am

    I think our policy of favouring another referendum has been pretty clear since before the GE. Revoke with no referendum would be a broken promise, restoring our toxicity with about 80% of the electorate. Revoke as an emergency measure to prevent a no deal Brexit happening by accident, and against the clear wishes of Parliament, is a respectable position.
    There are huge dangers in simply overriding the referendum vote

  • Peter Martin 21st Mar '19 - 7:47am

    @ Arnold,

    “…….and throws away his (JC’s) best bet yet to remove her and trigger a GE.”

    If, hypothetically next week, JC were to win another election as leader of the Labour Party it is unlikely the composition of the PLP would be much different than it is now. He would be in a position of having to do as he was instructed, or be deposed, and the PLP then would split with the non Parliamentary Labour Party.

    Jeremy Corbyn is pushing 70. I really don’t think he’s got sufficient confidence in his own health and vitality to survive for very long in such an environment. My take on this is that he will let the Tories finish what they started before seriously pushing for an election. He’ll want to start with as clean a sheet as possible for either himself or his successor. Why would he want to do anything else?

  • I watched Theresa May’s “The President Speaks to the Nation” performance and, I thought, as did many others, “Donald Trump”. The same arrogance, the same refusal to accept any responsibility for what has happened; for “Wall” read “Deal”.

    I thought Corbyn’s behavior, over Umunna’s presence, petulant (although in a meeting, supposedly of opposition party leaders why was he invited); however, listening to the SNP leader’s report of the meeting Corbyn didn’t miss much.

    It seems to have been May just repeating her mantra without interacting with the views of those with whom she had supposedly wanted to reach some sort of consensus.

  • Richard Underhill 21st Mar '19 - 8:29am

    “Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU.”
    I have signed the petition and confirmed by email.
    It already has more than half a million signatures and rising fast.

  • Peter Martin 21st Mar '19 - 8:44am

    @ David-1

    “One might argue for a vote between No Deal and Remain (these are, at this point, the only real choices) but that is not the People’s Vote concept.”

    So you’re saying a choice between May’s Deal and Remain is a ‘People’s Vote’ but a choice between No-Deal and Remain isn’t?

    I don’t quite follow that. Who else besides ‘People’ will be allowed to vote? The Robots who are coming to take all our jobs? Who else was allowed to vote in the ’16 referendum? Why wasn’t that a ‘People’s Vote’ too?

    If there is one thing that unites both Remainers and Leavers it’s that we don’t like the May deal. It has perhaps 33% support in Parliament and half that in the rest of the country. Can’t we at least agree to not have that as an option? Or maybe have 3 options : No Deal, May’s Deal, Remain

  • No one likes May’s deal and yet that is likely to be the one we get. When we voted as a country for Brexit, we voted for the “Pig in the Poke” Brexit. You can’t now complain it isn’t your sort of Brexit, it was always going to be the Brexit you where given, not the Brexit or Lexit you’d cooked up in your head. Personal Brexit’s do not exist for anyone ( other than Mrs May) and whailing this isn’t my Brexit really does you no favours, it never could be, it was never on offer , cease the delusion it was.

  • May’s speech was that of a dictator, an appeal to “The People”, showing complete disrespect for democracy (“arcane procedures”). She even kept everyone hanging around for half an hour to show who’s boss (OK, she didn’t do the gestures or go on for hours!)
    Margaret Thatcher is reputed to have said, “Everyone needs a Willie”, referring to the sagacity of the advice she used to get from William Whitelaw which probably moderated her approach somewhat. Either May is constitutionally incapable of listening to advice, or else she surrounds herself with people with views that completely mirror her own.

  • Nonconformistradical 21st Mar '19 - 9:24am

    Petition site seems to have fallen over – getting “Bad gateway” message.

    Do I smell a conspiracy here?

  • Nonconformistradical 21st Mar '19 - 9:44am

    Petition site back up

  • Nonconformistradical 21st Mar '19 - 9:53am

    And back down – supposedly for maintenance

  • John Marriott 21st Mar '19 - 9:54am

    @David Raw
    Good analogy. The thought of Adolf in his Berlin bunker moving around his imaginary armies is quite pathetic in many ways. So, how far are we away from ‘Götterdämmerung’? Seven days?

    May accuses Parliament of not saying what it wants. Well, WHY doesn’t she give it a chance to express a view? That broadcast last night was excruciating in many ways. However it does play to the gallery of those who actually feel sorry for her and just want it over.

    So, she’s off to Brussels today and it could be pay back time, at least as far as Macron is concerned. Like the first President of the Fifth Republic, his ‘non’ to any extension of Article 50 could do to May what his predecessor’s did to Harold Macmillan.

  • I suspect the petition site cannot cope with the volume of traffic that is hitting it. All those brave Brexiteers logging into to sign petitions for WTO; only joking the revoke Article 50 petition is going through the roof. The remainers by their desire to sign that particular petition are effectively running a denial of service attack. I suspect who ever specd the website hadn’t considered so many people would want to sign a petition in such a short time.

  • And it’s fell over again. They are going to need a bigger box, that will be making the techies sweat. We better hope they can dynamically ramp it up, I suspect knowing government IT contracts that isn’t an option. Strange we never had this issue with Brexiteer petitions, do they use quill and pen to sign, I’m sure wee Mogg would.

  • All this fuss about a petition site when you dont even agree with direct democracy, if you did, you would be acknowledging the result of the referendum.

    the reason the site has crashed is due to the false signatories coming from the continent.

    Do you really believe that it would attract 600,000 signatories in just a few hours? it must be being signed by unicorns and fairies

  • @Matt

    “the reason the site has crashed is due to the false signatories coming from the continent” – and your evidence for that is? Have been examining the server logs?

    “Do you really believe that it would attract 600,000 signatories in just a few hours?” – Errr, yes! If 700,000 were prepared to trek to London for a march, then 600,000+ will sign an online petition. You may have noticed – a lot of people really care about this.

  • Revoke Article 50.

  • “Would you like to evidence your claim, or withdraw it?”

    Considering the last petition calling for a 2nd referendum was proven to be full of false signatories which included 39000 from the Vatican state , then NO, I am not going to withdraw my comments.
    Why would this petition be any different?

    And I repeat, you do not believe in direct democracy, so why should the Government take any notice of this petition? You cant have it both ways

  • John Chandler 21st Mar '19 - 11:22am

    The petitions are regularly filtered of fraudulent or ambiguous signatures. Indeed, you can download all the data if you wish to examine it yourself. I know people who have worked at GDS and they take projects like the petitions site very seriously, and do a heck of a good job delivering working IT solutions on time and in budget, which cannot be said for some of the outsourced disasters that always seem to go to the same large companies.

    The last time the petition site fell over due to demand was back in 2016. You can read more about this at – they also mention the removal of fraudulent signatures.

  • Yeovil Yokel 21st Mar '19 - 11:24am

    As May returns to Brussels to address the other 27 EU leaders, Ian Dunt on summarised the situation this morning thus: “A proud country, reduced to begging.”

  • Sue Sutherland 21st Mar '19 - 11:45am

    For me the second referendum was always about voting on the terms of the deal. It’s a pity it has morphed into a Peoples’ Vote but I understand why this has happened. If it had been set up as a two stage process from the beginning it would have solved the problems we are in now. The campaign may still do that but May and Corbyn don’t seem to want to get us out of this mess, they just want their own way like a couple of two year olds. Corbyn has tantrums and May just holds her breath until she goes blue.

  • The concept of the “People’s Vote” was not just any vote by any people, but a specific vote on the terms of a Brexit Deal. Presumably if the deal was rejected by popular vote, the onus would be on the government to craft a new one or reconsider Brexit altogether.

    We are quite past that; neither the government nor the EU are interested in negotiating a new deal; the May deal has been up for a vote in Parliament and has been resoundingly rejected twice, which produces the same result as if it had been put to a People’s Vote and been defeated. Therefore agitating for a People’s Vote makes no sense. The question is not “What sort of deal?” as it might have been if it had been put in 2018. The question is: “No Deal or No Leave?” The Liberal Democrats ought to be taking a side on that question.

  • Peter Martin 21st Mar '19 - 12:30pm

    I don’t know if my opinion would be typical of most Leavers but I’d rather remain in the EU than accept May’s deal. The UK can then be a complete pain in the neck to the likes of Juncker and Barnier!

  • Richard O'Neill 21st Mar '19 - 12:32pm

    It’s all going to make the march at the weekend a bit strange. Presumably the speakers are going to have to do last minute rewrites. Or will there be a split in the People’s Vote movement between revokers and non-revokers?

  • @Peter Martin

    I am torn Peter.

    I wonder whether it would be worth taking the deal, (getting one foot out of the door so to speak)
    Then once the people can see that Armageddon is not going to happen, that the UK can be successful outside of the EU, then we could take the next step for arguing to get the other foot out of the door…..
    I truly believe that the EU project is going to come tumbling down in the next few years when the next financial crisis hits..surely it is better for the uk to have as much distance from the EU for when this happens.
    But I would be interested to hear your take

  • Bill le Breton 21st Mar '19 - 1:06pm

    There is not going to be a majority for revoke or referendum in this House of Commons.

    It is deal or no deal.

    But the Withdrawal Agreement and the Political Declaration are not inconsistent with a majority subsequently or event very soon after forming around the Labour proposal or a Norway + or Common Market 2.0 majority.

    So actually the choice in the next few days is deal followed by Norway+ or Common Market 2.0 or no deal.

    Those who resist voting for the WA are busy waving through no deal. Did you not see May’s eyes?

  • chris moore 21st Mar '19 - 1:16pm

    If you’re a Leaver, you should take May’s deal.

    You are then out of all European political institutions, associated bodies and the single market.

    Your remain in the customs’ unión until a UK/EU free trade agreement is reached. As both sides say they want this and Leave politicians have told us that it will be easy to negotiate, merely a little patience will be required.

    Once you are out of the customs’ unión, there is nothing else to leave.

  • chris moore 21st Mar '19 - 1:20pm

    As far as a second referéndum goes,

    there should be two questions:

    1. Do you want to Leave the EU? Yes/No

    2. If Britian votes to leave, do you prefer:

    ATo Leave with the Withdrawal agreement
    B To leave with No-Deal

    Tick your preference.

    All voters would have to be allowed to vote on the second question, otherwise this could skew the result of the first question.

  • Peter Martin 21st Mar '19 - 1:21pm

    @ Matt,

    I’m undecided too. Not that it will make any difference! There won’t be much that either of us can do.

    But from what I’m reading of the W.A. it could well be that it will be harder to escape the terms of that than actually leave the EU.

    Yes, putting as much distance as possible between us and the EU was my reason for wanting to leave too. There’s another world economic crisis brewing up. You can always tell when property prices start to fall. The head of the ECB Mario Draghi has done a pretty good job over the last few years in stopping the wheels falling off the EU economies. But I think he’s due to retire soon. The Germans are keen to have a more orthodox ‘sound money’ type to replace him. Then Angela Merkel will probably be leaving the scene too and her replacement is likely to be more fiscally conservative.

    So something will have to give in the not too distant future.

  • Paul Barker 21st Mar '19 - 1:25pm

    The Revoke Article 50 Petition is up again, for now. Currently its around 900,000 & rising by about 1,500 every Minute.
    This is a wagon worth jumping on.

  • Peter Martin 21st Mar '19 - 1:33pm

    @ Chris Moore,

    Why not just ask voters to list their priorities 1,2,3 and have a STV ?

    Presumably you must feel that your system is more likely to lead to your desired outcome?

  • At the moment looks like No Deal because the Commons will not support PM next week, whether there is a vote or not. One can then imagine an emergency in the Commons following which there could well be a majority to revoke 50, as there is nothing left.
    Could be fun

  • Given that a second referendum has been scuppered at this time by the duplicitous Jeremy Corbyn (telling his MPs to support it but not vote for it), I have signed the Petition to revoke Article 50as I believe that in a dangerous world we should stick together as much as possible. However, if we do end up remaining in the EU, either by revoke or a referendum later down the track, I still think those who have advocated this, including the Lib Dems, have a duty to address the wider concerns of those who voted to Leave. They are certainly not all racists, idiots etc, I believe concerns about housing, crime, education, laws being made elsewhere, being forgotten in globalisation and being ignored by politicians (dare I say FPTP contributes to this) amongst other things need to recognised in policy terms. If we remain in the EU for a length of time, even long-term, it will not be helpful (in fact it would be seriously detrimental to faith in democracy) if we try to carry on as before. There has to be an adjustment to the political dialogue. Can we go back to dialogue instead of shouting? I have noticed that even Lib Dems have started to make the sweeping generalisations that have been hitherto restricted to the extreme right and left when describing those who we disagree with

  • chris moore 21st Mar '19 - 2:04pm

    @ Peter Martin 21st Mar ’19 – 1:33pm Peter, you say
    “@ Chris Moore,
    Why not just ask voters to list their priorities 1,2,3 and have a STV ?
    Presumably you must feel that your system is more likely to lead to your desired outcome?”

    Ah such cynicism, Peter.

    I don’t think my system is any more likely to get my desired outcome than STV. I wouldn’t be unhappy with STV. Even better would be not to have a second referéndum, at all.

    Why do you imagine it’s a matter of my “feelings”? I couldn’t honestly give a flying f.. about my feelings.

    What are your “feelings” telling you?

  • Looks like everything will collapse and we will be on the threshold on No Deal unless MPs can rescue matters, could be next Thursday or Friday they will revoke Article 50

  • Peter Martin 21st Mar '19 - 2:29pm

    @ Chris Moore,

    I had a bit of a think about this and I couldn’t see that it made any difference. But us Leavers aren’t as smart as you remainers so I thought perhaps there was something I couldn’t spot! 🙂

  • Nonconformistradical 21st Mar '19 - 2:52pm

    @Richard C
    Re your posting of 21st Mar ’19 – 2:01pm

    I’ve also signed the petition and I agree with you absolutely that things cannot go on as they did. But I don’t think anyone should be under any illusion that if the UK does leave the EU the Brexiteer elite will, after they’ve achieved their objective, pay the slightest heed to any of the legitimate issues you raised.

  • @Nick Collins

    As long as are leavers are subjected to unsavoury comments from the likes of frankie and others telling us we live in cloud cuckoo land , or were racists, bigots and uneducated….
    I will continue to respond in an uncourteous manor..
    with something along the lines of, the reason saturday will be so busy is because Glandstonbury is not on and the university students are looking for a day out.

    I am more than happy for respectful, constructive debate , but it only works when it comes from both directions

  • Denis Mollison 21st Mar '19 - 2:55pm

    Petition – – has just reached a million; and still rising at about 70,000 an hour.

  • Richard Underhill 21st Mar '19 - 2:56pm

    859,912 signatures, so far, for the above proposal.
    The parliamentary website has crashed, several times.

  • Bless Matt always someone elses fault. “Tis those dammed furrins”, well nice to see your using the Brexiteers number one excuse. Dammed furrins signing a petition and sending our brave British website over.
    Peter yes more economic storms are coming and the last place you want to be is in a leaky row boat, while the Super Tankers of the US,EU, China and Japan get thrown about. Still you are likely to get your Brexit, so cheer up think of the fun you’ll have explaining that to your nearest and dearest. If only someone had warned you you would get the Brexit you where given and not the Lexit you day dreamed about.
    Over a million by the way, “Danmed furrins, sticking their noses into British policies for British people” hey Matt.

  • Denis Mollison 21st Mar '19 - 3:07pm

    @Richard Underhill – are we looking at the same petition?? `Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU’ was over 1 million when I posted, and has now – at 15.07 – reached 1,015,894 signatures

  • chris moore 21st Mar '19 - 3:08pm

    @Peter Martin 21st Mar ’19 – 2:29pm
    @ Chris Moore,
    I had a bit of a think about this and I couldn’t see that it made any difference. But us Leavers aren’t as smart as you remainers so I thought perhaps there was something I couldn’t spot!

    Ha! Ha! Ha! That’s made my day! You are a dark horse, Peter, indeed you are!

    Actually, STV is more likely to produce a Remain outcome than my system given that there are apparently a number of eccentrics/closet Remainers/ Peter Martin/ Maybot haters who would vote:

    1. No-deal
    2. Remain.

    Yes, strange, but true.

    Enjoy the show.

  • Peter Watson 21st Mar '19 - 3:14pm

    @chris moore @ Peter Martin “I wouldn’t be unhappy with STV.”
    A risk with a multiple choice referendum is that the first preferences might show a majority for Brexit options, while second, third, etc. preferences lead to a Remain victory (I think recent polling suggested this was likely).
    That would not invalidate the result (arguing against a proportional voting system would get pretty short shrift in Lib Dem circles! 😉 ), but for an angry electorate not used to that sort of electoral system, particularly if they are still seeing the EU in binary In/Out terms (lest we forget, Lib Dems were pushing the notion of a referendum on the “big question, in or out” rather than referendums on individual treaties for several years up to 2015), it might not feel conclusive to the losers (though obviously it should if it were their second preferences that led to remaining!).
    In some ways, at this late stage and despite a long-running campaign for another referendum it is disappointing that its supporters have still expressed no clear idea what form it should take. Copying the Brexiters’ approach of not defining what Brexit means is not a great idea: “a people’s vote means a people’s vote”!

  • Denis Mollison 21st Mar '19 - 3:18pm

    @chris moore – having looked at several opinion polls I can confirm that there are supporters of all 6 possible preference orders among Remain / May’s Deal /No Deal, including indeed quite a few No Deal supporters with 2nd preference Remain. This all-or-nothing preference order is quite common in referendums offering Status Quo / Small change / Large change, as one can see in several Swiss 3-option referendums.

    And if we do have to have a 3-option referendum, I’d follow the Swiss in using 3 questions, comparing each pair of options head-to-head.

  • Peter Martin 21st Mar '19 - 3:21pm

    I’ve decided that I’m not too worried about how it all will turn out:

    If we are out with no deal and it turns out well that’s fine.

    If we are out with no deal and it doesn’t turn out too well. That’s Theresa May’s fault for handling the negotiations so badly and not making sufficient preparations. Also not being firm with the EU when we should have been talking about trade but weren’t.

    If we out with May’s deal and it turns out well that’s fine too. Except it won’t!

    If we are out with May’s deal and it doesn’t turn out well. That again is Theresa May’s fault for handling the negotiations so badly and not leaving on no deal terms when we had the chance.

    If we Remain then we can enjoy being very critical of the pro EU anti democratic Establishment and being a huge thorn in the side the EU. We can give them heaps. We know what we can expect. We’ve had years of it.

  • chris moore 21st Mar '19 - 3:21pm

    @ Peter Watson,

    This is, I think, where my system scores over STV.

    The first vote determines a majority for Leave or Remain, the second determines what sort of Leave, in the event of a Leave victory.

    In any case, if Remain wins under any system, there will be considerable anger unless it’s a decisive victory: better than 60-40.

    I, personally, do not favour a second referéndum.

  • Paul Barker 21st Mar '19 - 3:30pm

    The Revoke Article 50 petition passed one Million at 3.53, German time, that’s 2.53 in Blighty. Lets see if we can get it to Two Million by Saturday, use every opportunity to publicise it.

  • Malcolm Todd 21st Mar '19 - 4:05pm

    Paul Barker
    At the moment, it’s still going up by well over 1,000 signatures a minute. If it keeps up this rate (and it has all day) we’ll be at two million by breakfast time tomorrow.

  • Bless Peter you can tell yourself you are happy, but I suspect a lot of people will be laying the blame of this cockup at your and fellow vocal leavers doors. Explaining to your family why you voted for this mess night very well leave you much less happy and them very, very angry at you. Remember you voted for the “Pig in the Poke Brexit” you can’t now say you don’t like the pig; man up own your decsion for once and don’t blame it all on May.

  • Matt,
    People hold in disdain those that bring hardship and trouble into their lives. Brexit has done that for a nation, you voted for it now it is causing such chaos, did you think you’d be thanked for it. Making bad mistakes comes at a cost. Loudly proclaiming you caused the problem long after it has become all too clear what a clusterfeck it is will damage the image people have of you. You can’t complain if you make such bad decsions that your views are not taken seriously. As to all Brexiteers being xenaphobes or idiots, they are not but most xenaphobes and idiots are Brexiteers.

  • @Nick

    Clearly I meant discourteous, but then coming from the “uneducated” wing of society who voted leave, I am sure you can forgive my mishap

  • On Newsnight Crispin Blunt ( hard Brexiteer) refused to acknowledge that May’s speech was aimed at him.
    A sign of things to come; no matter what happens it won’t be the fault of ‘Leavers’. We’ll hear how “If only Remainers had backed this deal (whatever it is) everything would be fine”; “The actions of Remainers meant that the EU pushed the UK around”, etc., etc.

  • @frankie

    And what about the fishing communities who have been decimated by the EU, what about their hardships, do they not count?

    What about the Millions of youth unemployed across the EU, who have been forced to leave their families, friends and communities, due to this failed project?

    The EU is a ticking time bombing with a fuse that is getting shorter and shorter, your refusal to even acknowledge the risks of staying in the EU, shows just how blinkered your views are.
    At least leavers are prepared to acknowledge the risks involved in leaving, but after consideration, take the view that the UK would be better placed to weather any storm by being an independent trading nation.

    What responsibility would you take if article 50 was revoked and in a couple of years time the project comes tumbling down. We see European countries on the brink of bankruptcy which leads to massive bailouts unlike anything seen before. The EU share of global gdp collapsing even more, whilst emerging economies swell and the uk not being able to strike independent trade deals with these emerging economies, due to the shackles and protectionist policies of the EU.
    Are you going to put your hands up and apologise and say you got it wrong, I wont hold my breath….

  • Paul Barker 21st Mar '19 - 5:28pm

    If I have understood the draft EU statement correctly, a No-Deal Brexit is very much back on the table unless The British Parliament gives in to Mays blackmail.
    Thats 8 Days to the cliff-edge.

  • Nonconformistradical 21st Mar '19 - 6:20pm
  • Richard Underhill 21st Mar '19 - 6:36pm

    The PM should watch her language. She says she is not “prepared” when she probably means “unwilling”. Preparations need careful consideration and explanation of costs and timescales.

  • May’s irresponsible and increasingly erratic performance is very worrying. If May’s deal fails again next week then the EU will offer a much longer extension. Neale Richmond tweeted a few hours ago that a no deal brexit would be a disaster, while Simon Coveney told the Dail that the EU had Irelands back. I conclude, therefore, that Ireland has assurances that the EU will not let Ireland endure the consequences of their nearest neighbour crashing out. But then what does anyone know………

  • jayn mansfield 21st Mar '19 - 8:16pm

    @ Matt,
    You seem to think that the problems of the fishing communities is a consequence of EU membership. I would like you to consider a different reason for what has happened, and it is appalling what has happened to small fishing communities.

    I would ask you to read an article –
    ‘Brexit is a red herring when it comes to the plight of UK fishermen’.

    I am sorry that you face such thoroughly despicable criticism, from so called Liberal Democrats, (Capital L, Capital D), who turn a blind eye to others who happen to be in favour of remain.

    What I would ask of you, is that at even this late stage, you think anew and consider whether those who led the leave campaign care overmuch about the ‘ little man’ , ‘the small company’ who are in danger of being destroyed by big business, the tory friends and donors .

    In my opinion, we leave an EU that is far from perfect, but an organisation that provides a bulwark against the corporate monopolies and avarice that we face if we leave.

    Like you, I am invading the Liberal Democrat environment, and what a lesson it has been!

  • Article 50 will not be revoked. It’s jus another false dawn for the Remain camp. Otherwise, the sky is sill not falling and the much predicted hardship stubbornly refuses to materialise!

  • Jayne Mansfield 21st Mar '19 - 8:59pm

    @ Glenn,
    May I recount a vignette from today.

    I was in a supermarket buying large quantities of wine for a party. I jokingly said, that this wasn’t for my personal consumption. She responded with the fact that she didn’t drink alcohol as she didn’t like the taste. She then offered the information that she did smoke though.

    As the only person in the queue, I offered her the evidence as to why it might be best if she sought help to give up this damaging habit. In response, she gave me the story of someone who had smoked all their lived and lived until their nineties.

    I mention this because for some reason, the woman at the checkout needed to deny the evidence. My question to you Glenn,. is why do you need to ignore the evidence? When it comes to the self-awareness stakes, what motivates you to dismiss it?

    I am sorry to be so blunt, but when there is a wilful disregard for the evidence, one has to question why?

  • @jayn mansfield

    Thank you for your comments, I will read the article you refer to and get back to you on that.
    As I have always said, I am always up for learning new things and keeping an open mind, nothing is ever set in stone.
    My initial thoughts on what you say about those that led the leave campaign , I tend to agree to some extent, they are never for the little man / woman, however, I never came to my conclusions on what they had to say, ) I listened to what the small business owners had to say who make up 99.3% of all private sector businesses and only about 5% export to the EU. Now I agree that opinions from small business owners are pretty mixed, more or less in line with how the referendum vote went. But I do still believe that the Eu poses a huge risk to them also, when the next financial crash comes (and we cant kid ourselves, that one is not coming) And it is small businesses that are the backbone to our economy.

    But like I said, I am not narrow minded and closed off entirely, I will read the article you referred to and will look forward to discussing with you further,


  • Regarding THE petition…May’s deputy official spokeswoman said there was no chance of the prime minister supporting such as course of action. She said the prime minister had said “about 12,000 times” that she would not be prepared to revoke article 50…

    Don’t give up hope; that is roughly the same number of times she said she would not ask for an extension.

  • Jayne
    I see a lot of assertions and little evidence. Whenever I go to a supermarket I notice two main things a) despite tariffs stuff from outside of the EU is generally cheaper than stuff from inside it and b)the customers look exactly the same as ever. What I don’t see is hordes commuters fighting over the last lettuce or armies of people demanding bread or the huge division the Chicken Little’s keep claiming is tearing the country apart. No pitched battles between remainers and leavers, zilch, nothing.

  • Denis Mollison 21st Mar '19 - 10:17pm

    @Glenn – “stuff from outside of the EU is generally cheaper than stuff from inside it”
    The broad reason for that is that it comes from countries with a poorer standard of living.
    I’d like to think that isn’t sustainable in the long run, though with climate change coming down the tracks it may be a case of levelling down more than up ;-(

  • Denis Mollison 21st Mar '19 - 10:38pm

    2,002,343 signatures
    That’s the second million in under 8 hours

  • John Marriott 21st Mar '19 - 10:44pm

    10.30pm and the latest from Brussels would seem to indicate that the U.K. has got its extension and not necessarily only to approve the May Deal. Could it be that we may now be looking at something on the lines of Norway Plus?

    On the question of fishing, I think I read somewhere that, when the fishing quotas were handed out, many English trawler owners decided that it was more profitable for them to sell on their quotas to their european colleagues rather than to fish them themselves. If this is true it rather scuppers the idea that it was the Europeans who did us out of our birthright. Perhaps the cause of the ‘decimation’ was nearer to home.

  • Why does Glen and Brexiteers in general need to disregard the evidence is the question? The answer is easy, because they are humans. One of the hardest thing for anyone to do is to accept they are wrong and face up to the fact an idiot is staring back at them in the mirror. So we sware black is white, wrong is right, rather than face down the idiot. Given time we may accept we have been foolish; find me a evangelist of the war in Iraq and yet they where legions at the time. So with our Brexiteers too much selfworth has been invested, they either sidle off (Jackie and Co) or continue to preach. The problem they have is their every statement is shredded by reality (and my how angry they get when that is pointed out). My only consolation for them is we all can and probably have made idiots of ourselves at some stage, unfortunately for them this is a rather public humiliation and will not be soon forgotten.

  • In England and Wales particularly, overseas owners have bought up vast swathes of fishing rights. An Unearthed investigation last autumn found that around half of England’s quota is held on Dutch, Spanish, or Icelandic-owned “flagships”, so called because they sail under a British flag. One Dutch multinational alone controls around a quarter of English quota. By comparison, the UK’s small scale, “inshore” vessels must fish from a pool of quota amounting to less than 2%, despite making up around 79% of the UK fishing fleet.

    But in truth, the decline of the British fishing industry began some years before the EU’s common fisheries policy (CFP) took effect.
    common fisheries policy (CFP) took effect. And the quota hoppers are better understood as a symptom of a larger problem: decades of mismanagement by UK governments, which have seen fishing rights first commodified and then consolidated in the hands of a small and wealthy elite.

  • Frankie
    No it’s because wailing and repetition is not evidence. By the way you are also human and your cod psychology works both ways.
    This isn’t about right and wrong. It’s about differing ideas about politics. I see national structures as being the best tool to put power in the hands of voters for good or bad or indifferent. I’m a democrat first and a liberal second. I’m against the EU on principle. This is because all the structures of democracy are national. They have heft, arrived at by popular participation. Democracy thus innately national in character.

  • @Peter Martin – “I don’t know if my opinion would be typical of most Leavers but I’d rather remain in the EU than accept May’s deal. The UK can then be a complete pain in the neck to the likes of Juncker and Barnier!” 21st Mar ’19 – 12:30pm

    Finally, it seems you might be coming to your senses, as I’ve maintained the best way to leave is to remain…

  • @matt
    >“What about the Millions of youth unemployed across the EU, who have been forced to leave their families, friends and communities, due to this failed project?”
    What about the UK?
    If you had really been talking to small businesses, you would know that many businesses have cut back on their apprenticeships and graduate schemes since the referendum – one client for example, who don’t directly export to the EU but who has many customers who do, prior to the referendum took on 3 apprentices each year and none since because of the trading/funding uncertainties. That’s 9 young people todate who haven’t had the opportunity of work, all because of Leave… You only need one company like this in every constituency and that is 6,000+ young people directly impacted by Leave and we haven’t even left yet…
    [Aside: If you really want some interesting conversations about trade, I suggest you start talking to consulting companies, who currently run EU27 projects with UK staff.]

    >“The EU is a ticking time bombing with a fuse that is getting shorter and shorter, your refusal to even acknowledge the risks of staying in the EU…”
    >“Are you going to put your hands up and apologise and say you got it wrong, I wont hold my breath….”
    Well, if the EU goes down, the UK and other nations that do significant business with the EU will also go down, so it doesn’t really matter if we are in or out. However, what is disturbing is your underlying assumption, namely, the way you perceive the UK behaving towards Europe: sorry can’t help, got a trade deal to sign with some nation that was a non-entity in 2019.

    So are you going to put up your hands and admit your part in helping to make matter worse and then standing by and revel in the misfortune of others?

  • Arnold Kiel 22nd Mar '19 - 6:27am


    but all structures of wealth generation and security provision are international, mostly global. If you carve yourself out of them, your national vote has no heft whatsoever because it puts no meaningful power into anybody’s hands.

    What is so marvellous about the EU is that is the first experiment on the globe to organise supra-nationally based on democratic principles. This is complex, at times messy, and unattractive to the many simple minds who prefer the (always wrong) simple answers to complex questions. But people will learn, some faster some slower (and with more pain).

  • William Fowler 22nd Mar '19 - 7:07am

    I would love a Brexiteer to tell me how leaving the EU improves my personal freedom rather than giving those in charge in the UK even more power.

  • Denis Mollison 22nd Mar '19 - 7:34am

    @Arnold Kiel – that is worth repeating:

    What is so marvellous about the EU is that is the first experiment on the globe to organise supra-nationally based on democratic principles.

    With divisive nationalism spreading around the world (Trump, Putin et al) and the global threat of climate change there is a desperate need for more supra-national politics, not less.

    Many of the losses of sovereignty that Brexiteers complain about are rules to protect the environment and consumer standards, good in themselves and in showing the direction we need to go for a sustainable planet.

  • Arnold
    Most of them are not formal political unions. I object to the EU specifically on the grounds that it is a formal political union. Not being in the political union of the EU does not preclude cooperation. I do not see anything special about Europe or being European. Other countries do just fine without being joined in a formal far reaching political union with Germany or France or Britain and so on.

  • Glen,
    You might as well object to reality, O wait you do that on a regular basis. Your dream of your “little village”, free of the world has been tried before, if always ends badly the world crashes in.
    You like the majority of your fellow Brexit posters wish to blame the world for your problems and run away from it, the world doesn’t care and will continue rolling along and if you don’t adapt to it, it will roll over you; unfortunately your bad decsions mean it will roll over the rest if us too and that won’t make you very popular, will it.

  • Arnold Kiel 22nd Mar '19 - 8:24am


    of the looser cooperations the Commonwealth, asean, ECLAC, AU, or NAFTA come to mind. With the exception of the latter, which barely survived Trump’s arbitrary but perfectly legal destruction-attempt, what has any of them achieved for their people? Are you even aware their existence?

    The customs union and the common market would not exist without being hardwired as “a formal political union”, if every member could renegotiate or deviate whenever it pleases the national government of the day. No central institutions would ever have been established without firm centralisation of responsibilities for, e.g. trade, and no consistency and “heft” would have developed without common law and jurisdiction.

    An absence of such structures does indeed preclude meaningful cooperation, a lot is “special about Europe or being European”, and no other group of small countries is “just fine without being joined in a formal far reaching political union”.

    You could not be more wrong.

  • Arnold Kiel 22nd Mar '19 - 8:37am

    William Fowler,

    just to amplify your central point: no Brexiter was ever able to answer an even simpler question: which decision will you take on the morning after having left the EU that you cannot take today because of your EU membership?

    Last night was a good demonstration of the relative merits of British vs. European governance. At this point, continued membership is the UK’s only protection against political, constitutional, eventually national failure.

  • Frankie
    I don’t have that many problems and the ones I do have I take responsibility for. I don’t live in a village. I’m a city person.
    I just do not agree with the concept of a formal European political union! I actively do not want firm centralised responsibility and even suspect the Common Market was bad idea in first place. Sure I know what the other organisations are.

  • Richard Underhill 22nd Mar '19 - 9:15am

    Denis Mollison 22nd Mar ’19 – 7:34am “EU is that is the first experiment”
    No, the EU is not an experiment.
    Others may learn from its actions and follow if they wish, but those that do, even if internally democratic, are often reluctant to do the most important steps which result from its origins in trying to make impossible a repeat of 1870, 1914 and 1939.
    Academics describe it as “inter-penetration”, but we might benefit from a shorter word for campaigning. Roy Jenkins understood this. If David Owen understood it, he did not like it.
    It is also a work in progress, every change based on democratic decision making. We must not allow people such as Nigel Farage to win an argument about democracy. His position as an MEP is based on election by proportional representation.

  • Richard Underhill 22nd Mar '19 - 9:20am

    21st Mar ’19 – 2:56pm
    The petition has now exceeded 2,000,000 ratified signatures.
    Tory Andrea Leadsom MP has scoffed in the Commons,
    so what does she know about democracy?

  • Denis Mollison 22nd Mar '19 - 10:16am

    @Richard Underhill – thanks for your comment, but you leave me confused: you say
    “It is also a work in progress, every change based on democratic decision making. ”
    It was in that sense that I was calling it an “experiment”. We shouldn’t argue about our exact choices of words when we are basically in agreement!

    At the world level, it is sad to see the second “experiment”, i.e. the UN (the League of Nations being the first) retreating from its one-time role as keeper of world peace. And yes, I have some understanding of how its role has been diminished, but I would love to see it assert itself more; maybe abolishing the vetos of the permanent Security Council members would be a start.

  • Can someone explain to me please.

    When you go to the petition website and click on petition data what the signature counts are for all the various countries around the world?????

  • There are actually a number of other Associations around the World built, partly in imitation of The EU, none has gone as far along the road of integration as The EU, but they were all started later. They are following The EU in developing slowly, a step at a time.
    Its worth reminding ourselves that The EUs primary aim was always to prevent War between its member States; so far, after 61 Years it has a success rate of 100%.

  • Matt,
    Because Brits tend to travel. They all don’t live and die in “their little village”, shocking I know I’m not sure how you can deal with that revelation, perhaps a quick word with Glen about starting a campaign to stop this worrying trend.

  • @frankie
    bless frankie.
    so it has nothing to do with the petition being full of false signatories by Bots then, like the last one did calling for a 2nd referendum?
    I am not saying that the petition is not attracting a lot of “legitimate” signatories, because it clearly is.
    However, I would not be getting excited by the numbers, because it is clearly filled with a lot of fakes.
    Anyone who thinks that this petition that was attracting 10’s of thousands of signatories every hour through the early hours of the morning was not being done by bots is being a bit naive.

  • Alas and alack one of the brave Brexiteers leaders has had to plead guilty to expense fraud. I expect they will be along any minute to proclaim “The EU made him do it”.

  • @Martin
    A house of commons spokesman has already confirmed there has been false signatories by Bots
    The same thing happened with the previous petition.

    It is also easy enough to fill out with false names, there are no checks, damn, you can even put the name of your goldfish down if you so wish lol.

    look, I am not saying that this petition has not attracted a heck of a lot of “genuine” signatories. I am merely pointing out the FACT that people should not get over excited about the numbers, because it is clearly full of false signatories as well.

    It does nothing for the cause and the legitimate voices of those calling for revoke, if it has to be hijacked by fakes.

    I dont know why I should attract such aggressive comments from some quarters just for pointing out a fact, since when did that become a sin

  • Malcolm Todd 22nd Mar '19 - 11:59am

    You keep going on about the previous petition that was found to be “full of false signatories”. Are you talking about the 2016 petition, which the House of Commons enquiry found to have about 77,000 fake signatures – out of about 3.5 million? In other words, it was “only” 97% genuine?
    Likewise, those foreign countries’ signature counts in the current petition data that you are worrying about account for about 4% of the total.

    Neither of these figures really calls into question the validity of either petition as a whole, does it?

  • @Malcolm Todd

    But it is not a case that just the foreign ones are fakes.

    All you need to do to sign this petition is insert ANY name a post code and an e-mail address. There are such things as e-mail generator software you know. It can be done on a large scale, very easily you know.
    It’s Hacker 1.0 you know.
    There are no checks in place to verify that these are registered UK citizens.

    Why can you not concede that this is the case? I am more than happy to concede that EXACTLY the same thing has happened to the petition to vote leave with no deal Petition.

    All I am saying is, you should not be getting overly excited about the numbers.

    And lets not forget 3 million signatories is hardly a democratic mandate to overturn the 17 million votes to leave the EU

  • I don’t have a problem with the conduct of the petition. I certainly don’t think the EU is behind the numbers of people signing it or is really any keener on dragging things out than Leavers are. The people’s vote campaign went nowhere and this one will too.

  • Catherine Jane Crosland 22nd Mar '19 - 12:36pm

    Matt, I’m sure you are right.
    During the recent discussion over whether registered supporters should be allowed to vote for Lib Dem leader, it was frequently pointed out how easy it would be to register multiple times with multiple email addresses. It is very obvious that something similar is happening with the petition.

  • @Glenn

    I tend to agree.

    I just find it irksome that some seem to believe that the petition has democratic legitimacy because a couple of million people sign to say that they want article 50 revoked, that, that somehow trumps the democratic legitimacy of the 17 million people who voted to leave.

  • @Catherine Jane Crosland

    You mustn’t point out contradictions in what LD’s say when the situation suits.
    That does not go down very well on these pages

  • Denis Mollison 22nd Mar '19 - 1:37pm

    Does anyone know details of the investigation that found only 77,000 of the 3.5 million signatures to that earlier petition to be fraudulent? If it was done properly, i.e. take a stratified sample of the 3.5 million and check each one against registered voters it wouldn’t need a very large sample – perhaps 1000 – to get a sufficiently accurate estimate of the fraud rate. And, Catherine, what evidence do you have for saying “It is very obvious that something similar is happening with the petition” ??

  • Denis Mollison 22nd Mar '19 - 1:39pm

    @matt – “And lets not forget 3 million signatories is hardly a democratic mandate to overturn the 17 million votes to leave the EU”

    That’s a fair point, but then what are we to do when we have a government that adamantly ignores that every opinion poll shows there is currently a majority for Remain?

  • Daniel Walker 22nd Mar '19 - 1:53pm

    @David Raw

    You’ll be happy to note that it’s much harder to spoof government e-petitions than it is to spoof comments on LDV. (for coders, the code behind the site is open-source and available on github for review and re-use) It does seem to check for excessive signatures from a single IP address or for suspicious email domains (e.g. 300k from [email protected] would be grounds to block that domain, or 5000 from a domain that has only existed a week, etc. Unlike LDV, you can’t just make up an email address; it has to work, at least briefly)

    It’s not impossible, but it is fairly hard, and spotting unusual patterns in these things is do-able; indeed the geographical distribution of the signatories is reasonably correlated with Remain-voting areas, so if they are being spoofed the spoofers have done their homework.

  • Peter Watson 22nd Mar '19 - 2:34pm

    If we take the petition figures at face value, then it is interesting how relatively little support there was for revoking article 50 a few weeks ago (141000 Revoke Art.50 if there is no Brexit plan by the 25 of February and how little support there is for a second referendum (110000 Hold a second referendum on EU membership).

  • Why the sudden surge for revoke article 50? I do like easy questions, because
    1. Brexit is becoming a real threat to people, they can see the cliff edge and no amount of Brexiteers singing “We believe we can fly” is assuaging their fears.
    2. The faith in our polticians being able to sort it out has been shattered.
    3. It is getting real and when reality starts biting Harris you react.
    4. People realise it isn’t a game anymore even if the polticians don’t.

  • Even if SOME (a few) people are signing the petition multiple times etc. I think it quite impressive that people care enough to do that. The Sky petition on leaders’ debates slowly inched up to 100k over months despite them flogging it every 5 minutes.

    I actually think that probably far more important was that the site was down a lot yesterday – in the morning and then a lot in the evening when I looked. And this probably RESTRICTED it a lot more than the opposite of people signing multiple times.

    It is clear that people are not happy with Brexit. According to Yougov people support a new referendum (leave or remain) 52% against 38%. The most recent Comres opinion poll has Remain leading Leave by 8%. Leave has not lead Remain in ANY poll since April 2018 and then only in one by 1%. And there is likely to big People’s Vote march tomorrow.

    Now none of this proves that Leave might not win again in a Referendum. But it does taken together I would suggest indicate just may be a little tiny bit of disquiet. And I think that Leave might have difficulty with their slogans in a referendum which would have to be “Honest, Guv, we are not lying this time”, and “Those doctors who 9 in 10 of say the NHS will suffer with Brexit are really terrible dishonest people”! But it is all they have got left!

    It is fair to say that all this is in stark contrast to other referendums (with the possible exception of Scottish Independence) when people pretty much accepted the result including the very close Welsh Assembly Referendum.

    Now there is always a question how soon you can have a referendum after another one. A question on which our great unwritten constitution is silent on so there is no answer but we do have General Elections every 4 or so years so 3.5 years wouldn’t be too out of line.

  • >If we take the petition figures at face value, then it is interesting how relatively little support there was for revoking article 50 a few weeks ago…

    In addition to frankie’s points, we need also to remember that a successful petition also needs a marketing campaign. So whilst we can look at the raw petition figures, I suggest these are fairly meaningless, unless you also take into consideration their associated campaign. The current petition has managed two things, firstly getting off to a flying start and secondly repeatedly crashing the website and so gaining media coverage.

    What is interesting is reading the government responses to the petitions Peter Watson references. It is clear the Government considers the issue to be not about the EU but “trust”; not trust in their wise and benevolent decision making, but trust in their ability to blindly ‘respect’ a decision arising out of a lapse of reason. It is clear, it doesn’t really matter to the Conservative’s whether the UK leaves with or without a deal, what is important is that they can turn round and say “we respected your decision – you can trust us (the Conservatives)” and if, as likely the whole thing goes pear-shaped you can expect the Conservatives to quickly off-load responsibility for the mess by pointing out that they merely delivered what the electorate said it wanted and that they should blame Parliament and by voting Conservative this can be sorted…

    Parliament is going to have to very quickly grow a backbone and take an adult decision, potentially instructing the PM and her government on what action she will take.

  • @matt 22nd Mar ’19 – 12:27pm
    “But it is not a case that just the foreign ones are fakes.
    All you need to do to sign this petition is insert ANY name a post code and an e-mail address. There are such things as e-mail generator software you know. It can be done on a large scale, very easily you know.
    It’s Hacker 1.0 you know.
    There are no checks in place to verify that these are registered UK citizens.”

    Looks like you’ve found yourself a job, go play!

  • @roland

    You might not like hearing the truth Roland, but it is time to put your big boy pants on and suck it up

  • Paul Barker 22nd Mar '19 - 6:57pm

    Comparing the Petition with The 2016 Referendum is fairly silly. The Government organised The Referendum, all you had to do was turn up at a polling Station. Add to that the massive publicity the Referendum had, the Government leaflet to every home & the Campaigns on both sides.
    The Petition has had very little publicity compared to 2016 & voters have to do a bit of googling to find it, mostly its being driven by social media.
    Whats happened is that we have reached a turning point & the Silent Majority of Remainers have finally had enough.

  • Paul Barker 22nd Mar '19 - 6:57pm

    Comparing the Petition with The 2016 Referendum is fairly silly. The Government organised The Referendum, all you had to do was turn up at a polling Station. Add to that the massive publicity the Referendum had, the Government leaflet to every home & the Campaigns on both sides.
    The Petition has had very little publicity compared to 2016 & voters have to do a bit of googling to find it, mostly its being driven by social media.
    Whats happened is that we have reached a turning point & the Silent Majority of Remainers have finally had enough.

  • marcstevens 22nd Mar '19 - 7:01pm

    I don’t usually sign online petitions but was delighted to sign this one. Now I am getting other people I know to do the same.

  • I have had a look at the data, Matt may be right there are five, five I tell you signatures from the British Antartic Territories, we are being hacked by penguins. Dammed crafty those penguins, can’t be trusted, they are furrin you know. Now if we disallow those, why that only leaves 3.6 million other signatures, but I bet some of them are evil yetis or some such furrin thing.
    But seriously Matt, Brexit is not popular, it will get much less popular if it happens. No amount of fevered conspiracy fakebook paranoia will change that.

  • @frankie

    You need to find a hobby frankie, i think Brexit is driving you a bit stir crazy.

    What are you going to do with yourself when this is all done and dusted and we have left the eu.
    i fear you will find the withdrawal symptoms of your obsession overwhelming and i fear for your well being.
    Maybe you should look for some other motivating thing that you draw pleasure from and start weening yourself of gradually

  • Mick Taylor 22nd Mar '19 - 9:54pm

    Matt. Back in 2004 I attended the leading US economics conference in San Francisco where a leading professor of Economics of a somewhat right wing persuasion confidently predicted that the Euro would not survive the year. 15 years later it’s still going strong.
    People like you have been predicting the end of the EU since it was the iron and Steel Community just after WW2.
    Sadly for you wishing does not make it so.

  • Matt,
    I shall continue to fight for the rights of the people I work with and try to do a bit for my local community. All things I should have been doing more of for the last three years but unfortunately some ejeets opened Pandora’s box and let Nelly the Brexit elephant out.

  • @mick taylor
    “Sadly for you wishing does not make it so.”

    Firstly can I say, why on earth would i Wish for the Euro to fail, considering the devastation that this would bring to millions of poor and vulnerable families. That would be pretty darn cruel of me to wish such a thing wouldn’t you say? I believe truly that it is going to happen, but I would never ever wish for it to happen, so lets get that one straight for starters.
    Italy is the 8th largest economy in the world and the 4th Largest in Europe.
    Its economy has not grown in 2 decades. Its country is full of zombie companies and banks. The Italian Banks hold over a quarter of all the Eu’s bad loans, I have read in some reports that this might be as large as 40%.
    The banks are only loaning companies enough to meet their debt obligations, the perverse thing is the banks cant get healthy without economic growth and the economy cant grow without business having access to credit in order to grow.

    Nearly everyone admits that another global financial crisis is looming, do you disagree with that?
    Italy is in a big pile of Doodoo when the next one hits and pretending otherwise is utter foolishness imo.

    The EU share of Global GDP is on an ever declining trajectory. Even Junker said “The EU’s share of global output is falling and will soon represent just 15 per cent of worldwide gross domestic product, while 80 per cent of growth is emerging from countries outside the European Union”
    What is the EU’s response to such circumstances?? to become ever more protectionist in its policies and tightening the loop.
    That is not sensible in my opinion and the UK would be better well placed to weather the storm if it was able to make its own independent trade deals with the rest of the globe.
    You might not like the facts that are set out infront of you, but they are facts, and armed with that info, I come to my own conclusions on what I feel is best and safest for the uk

  • Matt,
    You are not doing facts, you are doing a mixture of vague facts with a whole load of conjecture. The facts are these
    Small countries get worse trade deals.
    You won’t get a better trade deal than the EU because they write into their trade deals that if anyone else gets better terms so do they.
    You won’t have a trade deal with the EU and that will hurt.
    Now I don’t know if you actually work, but I do and the problems that Btexit is causing have affected me for the last three years. I’m not alone in that, it is pretty dammed common and no amount of wishful thinking will change that.

  • .. @frankie
    I shall continue to fight for the rights of the people I work with and try to do a bit for my local community.”
    i applaud you for that and I respect your right to believe what you believe to be true.
    I equally believe what I believe to be true; I do not form my opinions out of any malice. I believe that brexit is what is best for the uk’s prosperity and for future generations.
    Now you don’t have to agree with me, but you should at least afford me the respect that I am coming from a good place and a genuine held belief that I want the best for my fellow citizens.

    “You are not doing facts, you are doing a mixture of vague facts with a whole load of conjecture.”
    What facts have I given you about Italy is wrong?
    Please correct me if I am wrong
    “Small countries get worse trade deals”
    You can hardly call the UK a small country, we might be small on a geographically scale, but on a global scale we are still the 5th Largest economy in the world and the 2nd largest in Europe.

    “Now I don’t know if you actually work,”
    No I have severe disabilities, but that does not make my opinions less worthy. I have read tirelessly on the matter and have come to what I believe to be an informed decision on what I believe is best for the country. I can honestly say hand on heart and with all that I am, and according to my conscience, that this is what is best for our future prosperity, my belief comes from a good place. You can’t despise me for that….We were asked by the government to make a judgement, like it or not, they put a lot of responsibility on to our shoulders, So I armed myself with as much info as I could and came to an informed choice…Had I sat on my hands and not voted in this referendum which resulted in a remain vote that went horribly wrong down the tracks, I would have felt terrible about not doing my civic duty and taking part in the biggest democratic decision put before us….That’s the truth.
    I know you are going to ask me what would I do if brexit ends up being a disaster for the country. In truth, terrible that I got it wrong, but then, its our politicians who put this responsibility on to us in the first place, i took my civic duty very seriously and I researched and researched some more before coming to an informed opinion and did the best that I could and I acted according to my conscience.

  • Jayne Mansfield 23rd Mar '19 - 8:49am

    @ Glenn,
    The majority of UK fish is exported to the EU. The majority of fish imported to the UK is from the non-EU.

    It is a win-win situation for the UK, providing that those of us who realise why the imports are cheaper than the exports don’t choke on a fish bone thinking about the working conditions, health, safety and economic exploitation of those who provide our cheaper goods.

  • Jayne Mansfield 23rd Mar '19 - 10:16am

    @ Matt,

    You are correct, our politicians are responsible. The electorate were not in a position to make an informed choice. We were easy prey to those with their own agenda.

    The undermining of the belief that the 2016 election was a ‘once in a lifetime ‘ opportunity , a chance for individuals to express a view that was meaningful, unlike voting in elections using FPTP, begs the question as to why this was not general knowledge before people turned out in such large numbers. This, belated information, and for example, the problems with the Irish border should have been widely known before the vote. We were failed by our politicians who now try to divert their incompetence onto those who voted in good faith.

    I take a different view to you. I do not believe that this diversion of fault is a new phenomenon. The EU was a useful diversion of attention away from the lack of care, incompetence, and outright venality of politicians who for too many years have stripped away the social contract that lead to some of the most noble endeavours that this great country of ours has embarked upon, the NHS, the welfare state etc.

    Do you really think that leaving the EU will change any of this Matt? Do you really think that areas of deprivation when stripped of EU grants will have them replaced by the likes of politicians who made these EU grants necessary in the first place?

    As a remainer, I struggle with the fact that people like ourselves were misled into believing that the 2016 referendum result would be honoured. I do fear for the future of our democracy if the result is overturned, but less so now that we all finally have Mrs May’s deal to analyse and judge.

    The ‘deal’ provides essential information, but given the chaos, where the electorate and politicians still disagree about the roadmap we need to follow, in my opinion, rather than leap into the unknown, far better that we accept that the referendum was calamitous for us all and take time for a major re-think, an honest appraisal of the cause of the grievances that led to the 2016 result, but more importantly, a government that is determined to deal with them instead of finding scapegoats.

  • Matt,
    I don’t despise Brexiteers foot soldiers, even the xenophobic ones that are my relatives. I pity them, they have been sold a simple solution for complex issues. The EU hasn’t dismantled our industries, that was the choice of our polticians, they didn’t demand we pay poverty benefits to the unemployed and ill, that was our polticians, they didn’t demonise the furrin, that was our polticians, they didn’t feed us the lie we were special and the world looked up to us, that was our polticians. I despise the leaders of the Brexiteers and the media that acted as their handmaidens, the poor Brexiteer foot soldiers, no I pity the pain they have voted on themselves. Much as I pity them it won’t stop me taking the mick out of them, I’d do the same if they proclaimed the world was flat (and I do to the person I know who does believe that).

  • Jayne
    I never said anything about fish. I don’t care what the EU does or doesn’t do. I’m against it as a political concept on principle. It’s like if you gave me a vote on the monarchy or something like that. This is why I never talk about reforms or anything like that. I don’t see the EU as oppressive or a huge source of problems. I simply don’t approve of it as an organisation. I think it is an unnecessary layer of governance.

  • Jayne Mansfield 23rd Mar '19 - 4:40pm

    @ Glenn,
    I was simply responding to your comment on cheap non- EU imports.

    Do you not think that in an interconnected world that is shrinking, it is not an unnecessary layer of governance but an important and increasingly essential one?

    It seems that we can never agree on this because it comes down, not to evidence, but to values and feelings. It may not be the case with you, but for many, I find that the antipathy directed at the EU is visceral. Because of this, I find it a struggle to understanding the rationales given for this. For example, in what way is the EU an unnecessary layer of governance in an increasingly interconnected world where problems and opportunities can only be solved or grasped by supranational cooperation and collaboration ?

    Could you please be more precise, I am trying to understand, but failing to do so.

  • Jayne
    Countries smaller than Britain with less clout manage perfectly fine without being in a big political union. IMO the EU is basically a grandiose attempt to make the old world great again. It’s based on the idea of a shared culture of philosophy, art and influence stretching back centuries. It’s very classical. I’m a product of pop culture and, although I studied history of art, I have little affinity with the cultures that gave birth to it. My heart is with films(movies, really), hip fop, musicals, rock and pulp- fiction not Goethe, Voltaire , opera, or even Brecht, the new wave or whatever. When I look at Europe I don’t see much to aspire to. At most one or two nice paintings, a bit of Bartok. and the odd Bellini piece . But whatever!

  • Bless Glen to write off a while continent like that, still I’m sure your little village out shines the whole world. I’ve just looked up the word parochial in the pictionary and a picture of you is smiling back at me.

  • Jayne
    Should have read Bernini . He did beautiful work, IMO the greatest sculptor.

  • Richard Underhill 27th Mar '19 - 7:34pm

    matt 23rd Mar ’19 – 8:48am “we are still the 5th Largest economy in the world”
    We are, but we are at risk of leaving the EU, and,
    in the process becoming a laughing stock around the world,
    except when we are treated with contempt.
    Will you be taking the same line when we are seventh?
    India is a much larger country with a much larger population. Please note that Indians now own essentially British firms such as Jaguar-Land-Rover.
    France has a comparable population to the UK in double the land area.

  • Richard Underhill 27th Mar '19 - 7:48pm

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