There are times when living 400 miles from London is a right pain. I’d have loved to be marching with the Liberal Democrats in the March for Europe in London today but an extra trip the week before Conference is way beyond my budget.
“We continue to oppose Brexit” says Vince, describing the Government’s strategy as “train crash in slow motion.” His language on this is becoming stronger all the time. He’s also developing a very strong message for the party that is not about Brexit – putting the reduction of inequality front and centre of the Liberal Democrat agenda
Catherine Bearder talked about how we had consistently opposed Brexit before, during and after the Referendum.
Watch both their pre-march speeches below.
The full text of Vince’s remarks is below.
We’ve got to absolutely stop the extreme Brexit which this incompetent, disunited government is trying to force upon us.
“The Liberal Democrats continue to demand that the public should have a choice when the final outcome and the facts are clear.
“Do we want to rush ahead off the cliff, or do we want an exit from Brexit? That choice, that option, has got to remain.
“We can already begin to see what will happen with this train crash in slow motion.
“A Government that is badly organised, leaving perilously late some very difficult negotiations.
“Large numbers of EU nationals feeling insecure and unwanted, with some of the best people we have drifting away from the country and from our National Health Service.
“We’re beginning to see the effects on the economy that will grow and grow over time.
“Living standards are already beginning to be squeezed by the devaluation of the currency.
“Companies are beginning to stop investing because they don’t know what the future holds or they don’t like what they see.
“There is a lot of uncertainty, and this can be stopped if we choose to stop the process of Brexit.”
* Caron Lindsay is Editor of Liberal Democrat Voice and blogs at Caron's Musings
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Georges I-IV, Boy George, George Harrison and Henry George
Multicultural working
Street surgeries tonight #dundeewestend
Throwing in the towel
Taking a goat to the library
Steve Trevethan
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53 Comments
I will not be able to go on the march either (in my case I am helping to make the buttonholes for the Last Night of the Proms). I have, however, EU flags to wave on the Last Night in the Royal Albert Hall and I understand that there will be people around the Hall handing out EU flags to anyone who wants one.
No chance of me listening to this vote loser. The sooner we get out of the EU the better.
“And” putting up a hard border in Northern Island, having fruit and vegetables rotting in the fields, having a staffing crisis in NHS, Social Care, and Hospitality. However ministers have taken back control (not parliament or the public) and we are dependant on the likes of Trump for trade deals. Roll it on!
A possibility for future events perhaps members who are interested in attending could pool costs together and share the costs to hire a coach/taxi bus/car share. perhaps hold a social fund raising event after too!
And I’m sure “and” will be among the first to complain when it all goes wrong.
Hi folks have a wonderful day, we are supporting you from France take care , Get your message across . What you are all doing is just wonderful , so wish we could be with you.
No to Brexit !! No to The Repeal Bill !! yes to Democracy !!
No to May & Torys Dictatorship !!!
@David Becket – I not many turned out in the march to support of your ridiculous opinion. Those grapes must be particularly sour.
@frankie – I am sure you are very popular among the can’t does.
Brexit is happening. The sooner our Party accepts
this the better. Fighting against democracy is not a good idea and brings our Party into a state of denial with regards to the outcome of the Brexit vote. I wish our Party comes up with solutions how we can make Brexit work rather than try to overturn the Brexit result.
This is precisely why the Lib Dems are languishing at around 7% in the opinion polls.
These kind of antics appeal to a tiny minority of the electorate.
@ Lib demer. Yes we might be able to make Brexit work, but we would need to stay in the single market, custom union and accept there will still be a role for their trade rules. It is May’s red lines that are wrecking the chances of a working Brexit, plus an arrogant attitude from her side kicks.
Libdemer,
whether Brexit happens or not we need to tread carefully. The former governor of the Bank of England [Mervyn King] was quoted as saying in 2010 “whoever wins this election will be out of power for a whole generation because of how tough the fiscal austerity will have to be,” As it turns out, there was no majority government in 2010 and Libdems are carrying the can for austerity (most notably Student Fees).
I suspect Brexit is likely to have a similar impact on electoral prospects for the Tory party. Certainly, no Conservative wants Theresa May’s job until there is an end to this saga in the hope that she will carry the can for the whole sorry mess.
I do agree that we need to respect the outcome of the referendum. However, holding a position that we are unlikely to get a better deal than what we have at present (out of the Euro with opt-outs and rebates) is a pragmatic position. That position is democratically justified by calling for a referendum on the new deal negotiated, so that the British public are in a position to make an informed decision on the alternatives on offer, before it is too late to change our minds.
We will have to be in a position to present a policy platform whether we are in or out of the EU, and remaining an EU member will not solve our deeper problems. However, if, as now appears likely, the task is that much harder as a non-EU member, then it makes sense to campaign on the basis of a referendum on the exit deal, if only so as have an alternative to shooting ourselves in the foot as a country.
Whatever, the public ultimately chooses, we will need to be prepared to accept the outcome and move forward in that framework.
@JoeB – You’re just another one of the can’t does. People are sick to death of your type.
And. Appalling rudeness like that is, I suppose, permitted by the editors because it indicates most likely the increasing desperation of you Brexiteers. Back to Last Night of the Proms, musing on the last-ditch hopes of the fantasists that everything will really be all right in the end, contrary to all reasonable expectation.
@Katharine Pindar – The low turnout in your Euro march shows that the game is over. There is noting ruder than someone who stands against the democratic will of the British people. You’re about be be knocked off your high horse, us little people will not be looking up to you anymore.
Interesting our resident Brexiteers no longer turn up. We now have to make do with flyby’s like “and”, tis sad when the old faithfuls no longer think they can hold their own in a debate. I expected as Brexit went badly they would depart, but not this soon, not this soon, truly times must be hard for the brave Brexiteers. I fear Tinkerbell is in grave danger if she needs the help of “and” too thrive.
Strange that “and” uses the phrase “can’t do”, as sadly a defining characteristic of many of the Brexiteers I know is a failure to do much in life. Many of them I’m ashamed to say relative’s of mine. Their failures always someone else fault, never theirs, truly the epitomy of brave Brexiteers.
Remind me how many turned up on Nigel’s march “and”?
Farage to lead 100,000-strong march on Supreme Court on day of historic Brexit court hearing
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/06/nigel-farage-to-lead-100000-strong-march-on-supreme-court-on-day/
Nigel Farage’s Brexit march on Supreme Court cancelled amid claims it might be hijacked by far right groups
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nigel-farage-brexit-march-cancelled-supreme-court-far-right-article-50-a7439246.html
Given you brave Brexiteers can’t even mange to organise a march, never mind actually march in one, I don’t think your statement “The low turnout in your Euro march shows that the game is over” when over
People’s March for Europe: Thousands hit streets of London to demand Brexit be reversed
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-peoples-march-for-europe-david-davis-boris-johnson-london-james-chapman-a7938376.html
As one marcher elegantly put it
‘I’m not angry with the poor sods who voted Leave. They were lied to, and those poor sods are going to get poorer’
A fact that appears to be getting through to some Brexiteers but alas not to you. I fear as Franklin said for poor “and” it will be a case of
“Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other.”
I’d prefer we took the advice of Bismarck
“Only a fool learns from his own mistakes. The wise man learns from the mistakes of others.”
But either way “and” you will learn, unfortunately we who do not believe in the path you have chosen will be in the classroom with you. Fear not “and” I’m sure the stupidity of the situation we end up with won’t be pinned on you not while you can run round squealing it was a big EU who did it and ran away.
History shows that when people who bang on about the ‘will of the people’ get into power they dismantle democracy piece by piece.
The problem is that the lib dems have no vision on how to bring people together with policies that meet their reasonable aspirations. I’ve mentioned some policies you can adopt that help those at the bottom to try to put a Cork in the brexit bubble but you are deaf to those concerns. It’s because you are becoming an extremist party that is beholden to vested interests and will not compromise on your eutrophile ideology.
@James – The real problem is that the debate has been railroaded. Since the referendum we’ve debated Brexit in all it’s forms from an Article 50 agreement to remain, through various shades of soft and hard Brexit and back again.
However, the debate about the options in Remain; including Leave, haven’t really been aired. The debate being largely driven by Brexiteer’s fear of “more of the same”, when in fact Remain contained many options other than simply accepting the status quo.
I suspect many Brexiteers will only really appreciate the full gravity of Brexit, when the front door closes and they turn round to face the street.
Howevr, I agree the LibDems do need to do better, if they want to be heard and for their message to resonate.
Frankie,
I turn up, now and again but the article’s are repetitive which leads to repetitive replies from all sides, but especially from you.
P.S.
Maybe the leave camp doesn’t really find the need to march because it won the vote and thus it would be a bit pointless, as well little too close to gloating. Also leave voters tend to be older and really marching about with placards is a young persons sort of a pastime. I suspect a lot of leave voters favour the odd grumble over a coup of tea and a nice slice of Victoria sponge.
cup of tea.
And 9th Sep ’17 – 1:02pm……………No chance of me listening to this vote loser. The sooner we get out of the EU the better……..
Speaking of vote losers…A couple of months ago Theresa May told us all that she was, “A bloody difficult woman” and that Jean Claude Junker would be the next person to find out how difficult she would be…Now Brexiteers are moaning about ‘THEM’ being difficult…..
What happened to the “They need us more than we need them”? Boris’s “We can get a better deal with the EU, when we leave, than we have now”, seems to have disappeared
I remember posts from pro-brexiteers saying that because we buy so many cars from Germany they would give us a good deal and now we are being told they are trying to ruin us!
It seems that, as reality sets in, the unicorns and faerie gold have been replaced by the ‘Blame Game’…..
“The democratic will of the British people” is now the last Leave-argument still in circulation. It is pure cynicism. For leaving as an unspecified formal act, you Brexiteers had a small majority of voters at one point in time, true. But you achieved this by massive lying throughout, and that is becoming clearer by the day.
Referring to this “democratic will of the British people” today logically implies: “the basis for your vote, your subsequent realizations, and the real effects of this on your and your family’s lives are irrelevant. There is no way back; we will carry this out no matter how long it takes and what price you will have to pay. You asked for it – you’ve got it.” How democratic!
It is politicians’ job not to blindly carry out the “will of the people” expressed on one day, but to strive for what is good for the people over the foreseable future. Chances are increasing this might happen.
At the end all the brave Brexiteers have left is blame the EU. All stories of sun lit uplands, glorious unicorns, tea with Tinkerbell, empire II gone and it is all the fault of those nasty Europeans. The inhumanity of it, have they no heart do they not care for Tinks fate. Appears not my brave Brexiteers, reality is such a hard mistress and things won’t be the same as we get poorer and more isolated.
Important as all this is, of much more concern is Korea, even the Baltic and the possibility of an actual nuclear confrontation.
@ theakes
The increased risks from North Korea and to the Baltics are a direct result of eroding western civilzatory consensus and solidarity. Brexit and Trump are the most visible manifestations which have greatly encouraged Putin and Kim Jong Un.
Preventing Brexit addresses the one root cause of these risks.
As Arnold said theakes the disunity of the West with Brexit and the isolationist tendencies of Trump, make the West look weak and divided. While living in your own little village caring nothing about anyone outside it may suit many Brexiteers unfortunately it doesn’t match the reality that we all live on the same rock. I have said before Brexiteers in the main fall into the category of “I don’t like the world, stop I want to get off”. As they are finding however the world won’t stop no matter how much they shout or in some cases squeal stop and reality grinds on. The logical cause is to face reality and deal with it changing it as much as you can, alas that appears far too frightening for many Brexiteers who just shout stop. It’s the equivalent of standing in front of a steam roller driven by a blind and deaf man and shouting stop, it will not end well.
Arnold and Frankie
I would say that the North Korea was actually the result of putting a young unstable bloke (who routinely has relatives and advisors executed) in charge of a totalitarian state with a newly developed nuclear capability. As for tension with Russia, they predate 2016.
Sadly. I think many centrists like most of those with a ” grand vision” of a global order are a little prone to getting angry with the beastly small-minded unappreciative electorate as an explanation for their failure. To me the current centrist crisis of confidence is sort like religious thinking about the righteous path to moral redemption and the resistance of unbelievers to see “the truth”.
James and Roland
It is really most unfortunate that the debate around immigration was conflated with the Remain v Leave arguments. Both these arguments go back well over half a century (in their modern form, that is – if you look at the whole sweep of history they go back far longer). When we had the referendum the first time around they were NOT conflated.
As an internationalist (May’s “Citizen of Nowhere”) I think we should all welcome a freedom to live and work across the world. There are many who do not – however, there are many who border on hypocrisy on this (and other issues around the whole Brexit debate) who welcome quietly their ability to move between countries freely, but not other people’s! You only have to look at daytime afternoon TV to see the programmes about Brits buying property abroad. Another aspect of this hypocrisy (elsewhere described as British “exceptionalism”) is to think that Britain is uniquely affected by these issues!
This country has had extremely restrictive immigration procedures, dating back to Enoch Powell’s Rivers of Blood speech. People came, as they do now, because of economic demand, and the only way that “net immigration” in total will come down is if the economy works in a rather different way. I understand that massive flows of people one way are difficult, although where there is conflict that is very difficult. Just think of Bangladesh – one third under water, and now receiving over 250k Rohingyas from Myanmar!
No Glen it is to face reality. You may have noticed a number of your fellow Brexiteers have disappeared, I fear reality got them, it will only be a matter of time before more succumb. Reality has it that we will either fudge a second rate deal with the EU or fall of a cliff, I understand that but the upside is I get to point it out to Brexiteers. I suspect their response will be to blame the EU, bluster and then try to change the subject, forgive me if I can’t refrain from pointing out their stupidity.
My local builder came along this afternoon, obligingly since he has a full-time job during the week, to remove grass clumps that had accumulated in the highest and most awkward corner of my house guttering. We got talking over a cup of tea as the rain poured down. He told me of how his industry needed foreign workers, of the Polish ones valued here and of a brilliant Russian welder who had done a better job than anyone else. He spoke of the local farmers now realising they are going to lose their EU subsidies. I contributed how the cafe I go to after church has notices up about wanting new staff, part or full-time, but won’t get the young Eastern European girls coming any more.
The fact is this country of ours is depriving itself of the immigrants we need by the May government’s public attitude, even before real restrictions are put in place, but thankfully ordinary people are realising the truth of the situation. So, the voters of Sunderland have apparently changed their minds about leaving being best, and many others will follow suit. They should be offered another referendum before March 2019, with no nonsense about a devious transition period.
Frankie,
Most of the Leave voters who crop on here are not Lib Dems, that’s why they’ve gone. It’s not the awesome weight of your argument showing them the error of their ways. It’s like any political blog, eventually the outsiders get bored of having a pop at the opposition. At election time and immediately post election you also get a lot of Labour an Conservative people on LDV. Once they’ve got the bee out of their bonnet they move on and find other things to do. The belligerent approach of people like your good self is not terribly effective as either a form of persuasion or as a rhetorical tool. In truth it’s just comes across as a display of tub thumping. Personally, I’m not convinced many minds are changed by debating. It’s maybe just a healthy civilised way of airing opposing views.
Glen,
i doubt my arguments would change anyone’s views, but reality is changing peoples views, isn’t it. Reality grinds on and Brexiteers fall before it. How they must fear events, nothing is going right, all their arguments being shredded by the day, their brave Brexiteer leadership in retreat, no sun lit uplands, no NHS money, no unicorns, or Tinkerbell or Empire II or trade deals or anything but grind and hard work. Not the paradise Brexiteers foretold or even not much will change as predicted by you. The one thing Brexiteers fear most of all is upon us, change and I doubt many Brexiteers will like the changes that will occur.
@frankie “You may have noticed a number of your fellow Brexiteers have disappeared, I fear reality got them”
Sadly, it is more than a few Lib Dem Brexiteers that seem to have disappeared.
What I don’t understand though is, if you truly want to stop Brexit, why waste your energy carping from the sidelines in a political party polling so dismally. Form or join a proper single-issue pressure group to push that message without any of the baggage carried by the Lib Dems, or hold your nose and join Labour or the Tories to influence a party that can influence the outcome.
Too many Lib Dems’ comments here look like the party would prefer to watch Brexit fail instead of preventing it (and helping to build a liberal UK outside the EU is out of the question), but if the outcome is a disastrous Brexit then that attitude risks Tory/Labour Remainers reaping the political rewards while the rest of the country suffers the consequences.
Peter,
Good question I’ll answer it by saying
1. Why would I join the Conservatives it’s the equivalent of joining a bunch of arsonists and expecting them to repent and start putting out the fires they started. They caused this problem, let them fix it.
2. Join Labour, interesting but all i see of them is a party sitting on a wall. Sometimes they fall off one way, other times they fall of the other. In many ways they are badly split and are hoping to muddle through, they may very well do so but I’d prefer a party with principles.
3. Campaign to stop Brexit, in my own small way I am, but I don’t expect to be able to. I expect Brexit to happen and at that time we face reality. The reality is we are not special and the world don’t owe us a living. When that reality hits we could very well retreat into an embittered isolationist reactionary world. After all this has often been the fate of ex empires, they often struggle for decades if not centuries to find their place in the world. Having said all that I’d rather campaign against that fate rather than go along with it because it’s better to be in the majority (no matter how foolish) than be ” in a political party polling so dismally”. People who change the world tend to start as minorities they seldom belong to the group that tag along.
@Katharine Pindar
If you had actually attended the Last Night of the Proms instead of complaining about it, you would have seen that Union flags were actually in a minority this year, and not just in the Arena but in the Stalls seats as well. The people handing out the EU flags were finding many willing accepters, while the people trying to sell Union flags were having a hard time finding any takers, unlike in previous years. The BBC seem to have taken a conscious decision not to show the whole Arena and Stalls on TV during the second half of the Prom because there were proportionately far more EU flags than one might think from the few visible here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-41216508
@Katharine Pindar – I’m form Sunderland and we certainly have not changed our minds. The latest YouGov poll also shows that 68% of the UK are for leaving. You are living in a bubble and all you see is your own reflection.
Laurence, I am completely mystified by your comment! I had nothing to say here about flags, union or otherwise,but I watched part of Last Night of the Proms live on TV, was pleased to see so many EU flags, and actually thought about you as I remembered you had written about waving them, which I liked. As with Caron, I can’t afford to come down from the north just before Conference to attend, but I made no complaint about the occasion – where did you get that odd idea? – I always enjoy it. This time I was so moved by the Wagner Liebestod that I switched off for a while, but turned on again to sing and dance along with the final part as I always do – only just feeling a bit sad about Rule Britannia, because our patriotism seems for many people to include wanting Britain out of the EU, which I so passionately want to stay in. So you have misunderstood me completely, mysteriously.
Laurence , I think the proceedings must have got to you, it was clear , Katharine was watching and a she says, like me and many, enjoying the proms annual celebration held as ever on the nearest Saturday to my birthday !
Frankie, I love the way you can combine vivid imaginative writing which is so enjoyable to read with sudden posting of useful links to facts like the relative success of marches. Thank you, please keep going! I did enjoy seeing the London video, even though I realise we can’t defeat Brexit just by inspiring the London Remainers, misled as they have anyway been by Labour.
Lorenzo, thank you, and Happy Birthday! I thought I hadn’t seen much of you lately, and hoped you were progressing your artistic endeavours, or having a holiday. Many happy returns, both to LDV and to everything good in your life!
Hello,
Just a question. Wasn’t there supposed to be the launch of a new centre ground party at this rally?
Did it happen? I haven’t read anything yet.
Ta.
Palehorse, I had been wondering about that too. It seems that the launch of the “Democrats” just didn’t happen. According to one account that I read, James Chapman, who was supposed to be launching the new party, made a speech in which he made some general references to the need for a new party. But no launch. He had also gone very quiet on twitter for the last few weeks, after constantly tweeting in August about #TheDemocrats – although his tweets never really gave the impression that he had a serious plan for a new party
Catherine,
Thank you v. much. I rather thought it mustn’t have happened despite all the noise that was made.
Ta again.
@Jay “The latest YouGov poll also shows that 68% of the UK are for leaving.”
I’ve not seen any polling that decisive, and recent polling seems to show opinions are little changed since the referendum and the divide is still pretty even:
Survation (http://survation.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/MoS-Poll-Tables-010917.pdf) show that 50.1% vs. 49.9% would vote Remain in another referendum, and a Yougov poll (https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/zc2c6t9xh2/TimesResults_170831_VI_Trackers_W.pdf) shows that 44% agree and disagree that it is right to vote to leave.
Polling under-represented the Exit vote before the 2016 Referendum so such a balanced split in polling now may not represent even a small swing since then.
Another Yougov poll (https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/78e9zfqj51/InternalResults_BritainEU_Aug2017_Topline_W.pdf) shows that 47% vs. 43% would prefer that Britain leaves the EU.
However, this lack of movement in polling does suggest that the message pushed most strongly by the Lib Dems is simply not getting through. It is bitterly disappointing that the party has chosen to continue with the same strategy and tactics (predominantly a negative Remain campaign of doom-mongering and ridicule of those with opposing views) that failed abysmally in 2016. Perhaps it is not too late for a different approach to try and win over those who voted for Brexit instead of alienating them.
Peter Watson 11th Sep ’17 – 10:17am…I can’t disagree with the figures; among my circle of friends ‘Outers’ are still for out….
After we joined the EEC, in 1973 there was a referendum, in 1975 about remaining…
I believe that only ‘experience’ outside the EU might (and I mean MIGHT) bring about an effort to rejoin..However, I use the word ‘might’ because I believe that, however bad things get, all the blame will be aimed at “The nasty EU punishing us” and ‘Remoaners’ talking down the UK…
Peter Watson, thank you for the update on polling for leave or remain, and as you say our message is not getting through well enough yet. However, that is not because of ‘doom-mongering’ and ‘ridicule of Leavers’ . The respect is there for sincerely held views of Leavers, only ridicule for unthinking parrot-cries which you can easily call to mind. There is not doom-mongering either, but there is pointing out the ways in which Brexit will make our people worse off. We aren’t heard enough because we are currently a minor party. But fortunately the facts are dawning on many people, as the standard of living gets worse, the need for migrant workers becomes ever clearer, business leaders keep pointing out the facts of supply chains and their trading needs, and finance directors plan moves to the Continent. Personally I think the Irish question will be one that can’t be solved.
In any case we Lib Dems need to start insisting that the proposed transitional arrangements will simply put off the problems of how we stay in the internal market and the customs union – the elephant in the room that Jeremy Corbyn ignored in his lunchtime interview on Radio 4 today.
Laurence Cox, no apology then? At least be good enough in future to read people’s comments carefully, before deciding for whatever obscure personal reason you want to attack them.
Jay, I had certainly read somewhere in recent comments that now Sunderland no longer had a majority of Leavers. Peter Watson’s research contradicts your statement that overall there is still a majority in the country for Brexit, showing it is still largely 50-50. Remainers got discouraged, thinking it was inevitable, but publicity over the failing government negotiations, and increasing evidence of people being worse off, should help swing public opinion in due time. We have until March 2019.
@ Laurence Cox Come on, Laurence, time to be a big man. Apologise to Katharine. She’s a nice lass and supports a great football team. She said nowt about flags, she just likes a good tune.
0-0 at half time, Katharine. Ooooooooooooooooh to be a Terrier !!!!!!!!!!.
At least some people’s opinions are changing…
‘ROCK ON: Gibraltar’s government reverses bitter opposition to Brexit and declares they are ‘hugely optimistic’ about Britain’s future trade deal’ [September 2017]:
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4433692/gibraltars-government-revers-bitter-opposition-to-brexit-and-declares-they-are-hugely-optimistic-about-britains-future-trade-deal/
Thank you Katharine!
Thanks, David, that was lovely of you! Sorry the Terriers lost after all. I hope you get to some of the matches, and of course that they hold their own.
The volume of negative emotion from Brexiters pervading these columns is surprising, considering that this is a supposedly pro-EU site. I am unclear whether angry Remainers patrol the Brexit forums to the same extent. Our continental friends are obviously aware of this strength of antagonism throughout Britain and it cannot be assumed they would automatically take us back in the event of an apparent change of heart. From the State of the Union address, it is reported that they want to move on with their own agenda and who can blame them? If we were faced with the Isle of Wight throwing vitriol at us to the same extent, we would probably want to see it towed out into the channel and quarantined.
John King, your analogies are not valid, we as Liberals and Democrats should want no such thing for the Isle of White, and the Juncker speech is a disaster for the EU, for Brexit and our party policy , saved partially by Sir Vinces excellent and scathing response.
More of everything the EU leader wants, is not a solution to anything, as t is not wanted by most countries, note the Dutch pms reposte.
Brexit is more likely than ever, I voted remain, if it was Junckers plan or Brexit, my vote would be for Brexit !
Unity needs compromise or consensus.
Not a sledgehammer !