17 April 2023 – today’s press releases (fersiwn Cymraeg)

  • Lib Dems Welcome Bannau Brycheiniog Name Change
  • Any Plans for Cardiff Congestion Charge Should be Put to a Referendum

Lib Dems Welcome Bannau Brycheiniog Name Change

The Welsh Liberal Democrats have welcome the change of name for the Brecon Beacons Nation Park to its original Welsh name Bannau Brycheiniog stating that it is a positive move to use the history of the region to help build a successful future for the Park.

Commenting Welsh Liberal Democrat Leader and Mid & West Wales Senedd Member Jane Dodds said:

It’s great to see the re-introduction of the name Bannau Brycheiniog today. The message put forward by the Park is a clear example of how we can use the region’s history to build a better future for the park.

Other countries like New Zealand see the use of their indigenous languages such as Māori as not only key to protecting their history and culture, but also as a key marketing tool. There is no reason we shouldn’t be doing so in Wales.

Beyond the name change, what has been highlighted by the Park today, is that it faces numerous threats, whether that is the Government failing to take action on the sewage dumping crisis, or climate change. It is a clear message to us all that we must unite to protect what is a national treasure.

Liberal Democrat Leader of Powys Council James Gibson-Watt added:

Today marks a new chapter for Bannau Brycheiniog, a chapter where we seek to learn from the past to build a better future for one of the UK’s greatest landscapes.

This is an important decision in protecting our local culture and history.

It is vital that we work to protect this landscape and promote the landscape and communities that live and work within it. That is what I and the Liberal Democrats will continue to push for as the Leader of Powys Council.

Any Plans for Cardiff Congestion Charge Should be Put to a Referendum

Responding to news that Cardiff’s Labour-run council is going ahead with investigating options to bring in a road user payment scheme, the leader of the Liberal Democrat Group on Cardiff Council Councillor Rodney Berman, said:

Any proposal for a significant congestion charging scheme must have support from the people of the City.

Given that Labour did not include a specific plan for such a scheme in its manifesto for last year’s local elections, we don’t know that a congestion charge scheme would have the required level of public support.

If the council wants to proceed to introduce one, it should make its case and then put that to a referendum of Cardiff’s residents.

The council needs to demonstrate that any proposal for a congestion charge, or any other form of road user payment scheme, would bring clear benefits.

We have long since argued there needs to be major improvements in public transport provision in Cardiff before any charging scheme could be considered. And yet, we have repeatedly seen bus routes withdrawn across the City and the promised benefits of the South Wales Metro scheme still seem a long way off into the future.

We have also recently seen the loss of the park and ride service to the city centre from Pentwyn, with the bus link having been withdrawn. So currently, we are very much going in the wrong direction.

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This entry was posted in News, Press releases and Wales.
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25 Comments

  • nigel hunter 17th Apr '23 - 11:36pm

    Brits do not seem to learn ‘forrin’ languages.Maybe we should start with Welsh,scottish,Irish so we can understand the UK better. To reach out ,to understand ourselves.

  • Maurice Leeke 18th Apr '23 - 8:42am

    At present Scottish parents can request Gaelic Medium Education for their children when they start school.
    Perhaps the Scottish Lib Dems could lead the way in proposing that there should also be a right to request Gaelic as a second language for all Scottish pupils – possibly just at Primary 3/4 and at S1, or preferably at the beginning of any school year.

  • George Thomas 18th Apr '23 - 9:30am

    If Brits did a life in the UK test and questions were split equally between four nations, then I suspect most Brits would fail on current knowledge. It’s therefore disappointing to see likes of Susanna Reid and Xander Armstrong have such childish reactions to Welsh place names being used.

    Learning is good full stop. Learning languages means easier and better communication, greater problem solving and heaps of other benefits. It doesn’t have to be modern language versus UK language, it can be as well as.

  • Chris Bertram 18th Apr '23 - 12:49pm

    Correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t the Welsh name for the Brecon Beacons already in place, so isn’t calling it a “re-introduction” trying a bit too hard?

    Anyway, trying to “abolish” the English name is likely to fail – the many English-speaking visitors, which will include the large majority of Welsh people who visit, will still call it the Brecon Beacons regardless of what the Park management wish. Changing the signs is pointless and will open up the Park management to accusations of wasting money.

  • The environmental threats are what we should absolutely be focussing on, shame that message is being over-shadowed by the name thing.

    ‘It’s great to see the re-introduction of the name Bannau Brycheiniog’
    It has always been there, on the signage. Whether it will ‘catch on’ as the main name – I doubt it, tbh. I remember a council changing the name of a roundabout (after the pub it was named after changed). To this day, locals use the old one (in fact, the council gave up and changed the signage back after a while).
    It’s the same in NZ, btw. All my Pākehā rellies regard te reo Māori with the same ‘yeah, whatever’ as people in the Valleys regard ‘Abertawe’ or ‘arafwch nawr’.

  • Mel Borthwaite 18th Apr '23 - 6:55pm

    @Maurice Leek
    You make a good suggestion but the demand for places could not be met due to the shortage of teachers who can teach in Gaelic. Maybe the first step would be for the Liberal Democrats to propose that every Council in Scotland should provide Gaelic Medium education if there is even a single request for such provision. At present, too many councils merely offer to transport pupils to another council area where Gaelic Medium is provided – such an approach restricts growth of uptake.

  • Maurice Leeke 18th Apr '23 - 8:56pm

    Mel
    You make two very good points. Training more teachers in Gaelic is definitely necessary, and a requirement for local authorities to provide Gaelic Medium Education where requested would be a big step forward.

  • GWYN Williams 18th Apr '23 - 10:54pm

    When any organisation changes its name I am reminded of the late Russell Johnston telling the Liberal Assembly in 1988: “You don’t change the taste of the whisky by changing the shape of the bottle.”
    Following the change from Snowdonia/Eryri to Eryri and now the Beacons/Bannau to Bannau, there is clearly a move in Wales to mono-lingual names. None of the Parties in the Senedd proposed this changed in 2021’s election.
    The bilingual place names policy came about in response to a prolonged campaign by Welsh language activists in the 60s and 70s defacing English only road signs. Politicians and bureaucrats meddle with this policy at their peril.
    The only name one can change as an individual is one’s own. in Welsh I would be Gwyn ap Gwilym or in English White Williams. I am particularly and personally attached to a bilingual names policy.

  • David Evans 19th Apr '23 - 5:07am

    I agree with Gwyn Williams on this. Establishing the Bilingual Place Names Policy was a excellent example of Liberal compromise between two groups with different views and needs, and helped to bring to an end civil disobedience by Welsh Language activists and more importantly undermined some much worse activities undertaken by a small group of violent extremists.

    Fifty years later, large public sector organisations choosing once again to emphasise the use of one language over the other simply to make a headline undermines this and indicates that they are publicly supporting one side. If this starts to embolden those extremist elements once again, the resultant problems will be the consequence of this naive virtue signalling by bodies led by people who really should know better.

    At a practical level, Welsh is not an easy language to get used to and pronunciation and spelling is in no way intuitive. This can make it more difficult for the occasional tourist, not easier.

  • David Evans 19th Apr '23 - 5:36am

    As an aside to Maurice and Mel with their rosy view of the benefits of extra tuition in Gaelic as a second language in Scottish education, I would just point to the consequence for second language uptake in Wales.

    These days all students in Wales have Welsh language tuition in schools, and many more are getting a qualification at GCSE level. However, this has been at a cost of a catastrophic deterioration in the number of Welsh students obtaining a qualification in other languages – even worse than the general deterioration in the rest of the UK.

    While being able to communicate in Welsh as well as English with people who can communicate in either doubtless has cultural benefits in Wales, the loss of Welsh businessmen able to speak in German, French, Chinese or Korean with businessmen from abroad will doubtless have much wider consequences for the Welsh economy.

    As liberals we all believe that education is a public good, but some forms of education have bigger benefits than others and getting the balance right between the needs for expertise across a wide range of subjects can never be one of simply we want more.

  • Maurice Leeke 19th Apr '23 - 8:50am

    David Evans makes some interesting and valuable points.
    If I have understood him correctly I think he means “third” language at the end of his first paragraph.
    I think that we agree that more education in Gaelic should be in addition to teaching another language, and that being bilingual makes it easier to learn an additional language.

  • Chris Moore 19th Apr '23 - 9:57am

    @David Evans and Maurice:

    My son has three mother tongues. We speak Spanish and English at home; his education is in Euskera (Basque). The school, like nearly all in the Spanish Basque country has a trilingual model with Basque as the main, but not exclusive teaching medium.

    One consequence of trilingualism is that French is only taught as an option; France is 45 minutes drive down the road.

    The cognitive DISADVANTAGES of multi-lingualism are well-attested. Early vocabulary learning is divided amongst languages, so a multi-lingual Spanish speaker like my son will have less vocabulary in Spanish than an intellectually equivalent monoglot from Madrid. However, the learning process in polyglots goes on longer and they end up with vocabulary levels almost as good as monoglots in any of their various languages.

    There’s also evidence in young children that each extra language learnt impacts negatively on motor development and cognitive advances in other subjects in young children. Again these disadvantages gradually vanish.

  • Jason Connor 19th Apr '23 - 6:28pm

    I like the fact many signs are bi-lingual in Wales. I’ve always wanted to learn Welsh but it’s virtually impossible to find classes locally where I live in London. It is such a beautiful language and I love the way the nouns mutate. I did live in north wales for a brief time in the 80s so learnt how to order a beer in the pub.

  • Alex Macfie 19th Apr '23 - 7:07pm

    @David Evans: “[Welsh] pronunciation and spelling is in no way intuitive” then where does that leave English, which has probably the least intuitive spelling of any European language? Welsh pronunciation and spelling are actually easy once one has learnt the rules and mastered certain sounds that are cross-linguistically rare (such as the ll sound /ɬ/). With a few exceptions, Welsh spelling is phonologically consistent, unlike English with its multiple pronunciations of -ough.

  • @Alex Macfie – you are correct. Having learnt some Welsh as a child I can still read a page of Welsh with a passable attempt at pronunciation, while not understanding much of it. It is full of wonderful diphthongs in which each of the vowels is given its standard pronunciation and then melded together – and there are 7 vowels to draw on.
    And did you know that you can find linguistic traces of the Roman occupation in Welsh?

  • David Evans 20th Apr '23 - 3:48pm

    Thanks to everyone who has responded to my posts.

    Alex,

    Thanks for your specific response. Of course when I referred to “[Welsh] pronunciation and spelling is in no way intuitive,” I meant to imply it related to English speakers, who form the vast majority of tourists in Wales. We have to be honest with ourselves and accept that while a lot of Lib Dems love education both in principle and as a personal challenge, but for the vast majority of people have no little or no interest in learning rules and the like. we all need to remember this, especially when it comes to our wish for more education (e.g. when Maurice says “more education in Gaelic should be in addition to teaching another language” the question has to be ‘Where does the time come from?’

    One extra interesting point to note though is that no one has responded in any way to my main *Liberal* point on the divisions this may begin to open, but every one is really interested in the *Educational* point on learning languages. Are we sure our main interest is Liberal Democracy? 😉

  • David, I’m guessing the people talking about the joys of learning languages may not have witnessed the divisive side. The ‘- off back to England’ response to anyone who moans in their local newspaper about the cost of all paperwork being sent out in both languages.

    Also, any language is only ‘easy’ to learn if you have an aptitude for languages. The references to dipthongs and mutations suggest the people commenting here DO have that aptitude. It’s far from universal 🙂

    In the 2021 census, around 17.8% of people (including children) in Wales spoke Welsh, and about about 3/4 were down as have no Welsh language skills. Bi-lingual signs etc are great, but Welsh-only wouldn’t just confuse tourists.

  • Peter Davies 20th Apr '23 - 7:53pm

    And did you know that you can find linguistic traces of the Roman occupation in Welsh? Indeed and nobody is trying to purge those. The hostility is not to all outside influences, just English.

  • Chris Moore 21st Apr '23 - 9:04am

    Oh dear, Martin, really, you are allowed to avoid personal attacks.

    You have simply misinterpreted what I’ve said.

    The advantages of multi-lingualism are well known. And have been stated on many occasions. I do not feel the need to state the obvious everytime I post.

    There are however disadvantages: as I made clear, these are early developmental matters and mostly fall away with time. I do not personally regard them as important.

    Btw, if you re-read the article you append, you will see that the article mentions one or two of the cognitive issues that arise with multi-lingualism!!

    The issues I mention are well-attested and uncontroversial. You can look up the references yourself.

  • Nonconformistradical 21st Apr '23 - 9:11am

    @Chris Moore
    “The issues I mention are well-attested and uncontroversial. You can look up the references yourself.”
    No Chris – you raised the issue so it’s your job to provide the evidence to back up what you say. Then we can all judge that evidence for ourselves.

  • Chris Moore 21st Apr '23 - 9:39am

    Oh, all right, Nonconformist Radical, just because I love you.

    https://crystalcleartranslation.com/the-advantages-and-disadvantages-of-raising-a-child-as-bilingual-or-multilingual/

    http://www.scielo.org.co/scielo.php?pid=S0120-338X2012000200005&script=sci_abstract

    Here are a couple of references for you.

    In reality, the literature is copious, if you want to get into it.

    Obviously, the popular line on multi-lingualism is that it confer merely benefits; but that is an unnecessary simplification. And not true.

    BTW I speak four languages to native level. And several other languages pretty well. In the distant past, I worked for a while as a translator.

  • Chris Moore 21st Apr '23 - 9:53am

    Correction: I probably don’t speak English to native level any more; does my writing seem OK?

  • Chris Moore 21st Apr '23 - 2:33pm

    Research on advantages and disadvantages of multilingualism in children and adults goes back many decades.

    Much of the early work focused on the educational disadvantages of multi-lingualism. Multi-lingualism was seen as exceptional and problematic.

    As multi-lingualism has become more common, with increased migration, there has been more focus on advantages.

    The trilingual educational model of the the Spanish Basque country where I live is a sacred cow politically. However, the teaching of certain subjects in English is problematic, because most teachers don’t have a good enough level of English to go into nuance. It’s notable the Basque Country has slipped in Pisa rankings coinciding with the gradual introduction of tri-lingualism.

    As for the UK, you can survive in most of the world being a mono-glot English speaker and this really undermines motivation to learn other languages. And motivation is absolutely critical for learning. Multi-lingualists like myself usually have strong reasons to learn. And have or make constant opportunities to use their languages.

  • Arguments about what the people of Wales should call THEIR places are an internal matter for them. Irrespective of which language or languages they choose, the locals will adopt very quickly to the chosen names.

    As visitors, we just have to adopt to their choice of place names, not adopt a colonial attitude of “The natives must prioritise our convenience over theirs”.

    That doesn’t mean, outsiders have to freak out about names – for instance, the Italian have a city called Milano but it is known as Mailand to German speakers and Milan to English speakers. Who would suggest that either German or English speakers should have some sort of “right” to override Italians name for their city and insist it be renamed?

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