“Interesting” developments in the UK over the summer. I suppose (?), it is good to see people marching, demonstrating, and more importantly exercising their right to express their views and opinions.
Personally, I have no problem with the UK or English flags being flown or waved. I understand that any flag is often seen as a national symbol and it will strongly resonate with many residents. The flag itself reminds people of their heritage, customs and traditions. During my recent trip to Croatia, I have noticed countless flags being flown across towns, cities and neighbourhoods. The Croatian flag is strongly embedded in people’s national pride and identity, also due to the complex history of countries in that part of Europe.
However, most people waving the flag would call themselves “patriotic”. But is patriotism that many of us refer to? Patriotism is not only about singing the national anthem and waving the flag. It is so much more than that. It means paying taxes, positively contributing to the society, obeying the law, being a good citizen, and trying to make a difference. Being patriotic means building something meaningful and inspiring others to do the same.
Unfortunately I have seen that the “flag waving exercise” is often (not always) associated with disobedience, law breaking, vandalism, painting all immigrants with the same brush, swearing, using intimidation, violence and fear. Is this patriotism? In my opinion NO. YOU ARE NOT a patriot but simply a hypocrite and a hooligan. In actual fact the flag is irrelevant. What is really important are the actions (good or bad) or individuals who are responsible for their decision making, poor judgment and hostile attitude.
20 years in the UK and counting. I am actually quite disappointed (and surprised) with the most recent societal and political developments in the country. The topic of immigration has always been a “hot potato” but it will not go away. What I know is that abuse of power, racism or other forms of influence won’t solve any of the issues that we all care about; from the NHS, taxation, adult and social care, to education or employment. This toxic narrative, which is fuelled by some politicians, is winning the debate and I worry that it will have a profound consequence and a negative impact on this country, which I have called home for a long time now.
* Michal Siewniak is a Lib Dem activist and councillor for Handside ward, Welwyn Hatfield.
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24 Comments
If a Council is to take down the Union Jack or English Flag from lamp posts and other public areas, then it must take down ALL other flags, otherwise you may was well put “vote Reform” flags in their place.
As possibly the only, but certainly the first, Lib Dem to write a “Good Morning it’s St George’s Day’ leaflet I’ve seen this first hand.
It is about the far right normalising the exceptional and hoping for a response they can weaponise.
@ Hywell Are you aware that St George apparently was a Palestinian ?
I’m not sure I want the public highway decorated with political symbols. It seems rather un-British to me.
Here in Wales, the flag of St George is a foreign flag. Yet we often see it when “Ingerland” is playing Association Football. Apparently if one objects one is an extremist. Why is it in England the converse is true?
@Michal – you start by saying that you have no problem with the UK or English flags being flown, but after saying that, you go on to spend almost the entire article criticising people who fly the UK flag, and linking it to racism. I think by doing that you’ve inadvertently exposed exactly the problem that too many liberals have with the UK flag!
Personally I love my country and therefore I’m very happy to fly the UK flag. And I’d absolutely support anyone else who loves the UK and wishes to do likewise (obviously, in a non-toxic and law-abiding context). Wanting to fly the flag that represents your community/country is a perfectly natural human thing to do and is not at all incompatible with liberalism. But if liberals constantly belittle those who do fly the UK (or the English) flag, then that is exactly what gives free reign to the right to claim the flag as their own – and also in the process gives other people the (hopefully, false) impression that liberalism is not patriotic, thereby driving more people to support the right.
I remember delivering those St George’s leaflets all part of a strategy driven by Hywel that made sure no BNP candidates ever got elected in Oldham. And yes it did state St George’s true origins and what he really stood for.
Spot the difference**
Adolf Hitler’s rise to power was fuelled by resentment at Germany’s perceived loss of prestige post WW1, economic hardship, and the political instability of previous governments..
Constantly weaponizing those factors, together with blaming non-Aryans for the nations problems, allowed his emerging party to use largely false propaganda to exploit the very fear and disillusionment he’d created, to incite often violent protests…
Making what would, under different circumstances, be deemed extremism, ‘normal behavior’. Hitler and the Nazi Party gained increasing support, culminating in his appointment as Chancellor in January 1933.
** The difference is that only one had a moustache..
@ Simon R,
” Wanting to fly the flag that represents your community/country is a perfectly natural human thing to do and is not at all incompatible with liberalism”
I agree with this except that I’d add “and socialism too”. It’s only seen as a problem in England. At least I can’t think of anywhere else where the problem is quite this bad.
Unfortunately it’s probably too late to reclaim both the Union Flag and the red cross of St George from the far right. It’s a pity because I first remember seeing both flying on the tower of my local church when I was on parade as a young cub scout.
The liberal left, in both Labour and Lib Dem Parties, doesn’t really understand the working class. Their patriotism is seen as a positive during times of conflict when they are required to fight for “King and Country”. They are then told to put it away to avoid offending anyone when it isn’t needed.
I’m not sure that my own thoughts on this are as clear as they might be. Nevertheless, I also think you’re correct in saying that we are leaving an open door for the far right.
I wonder whether we could fly the Union Flag at our party conference and have Ed make a short speech about patriotism, which in brief means wanting the best for all the people of your country. We can then define what ‘best’ means in a truly Liberal Democracy which takes advantage of opportunities also for international cooperation.
@David Raw
“…. how he got here I don’t know…”
For the half-English who’ll get that reference……
@Peter Martin 27th Aug ’25 – 5:02pm…….The liberal left, in both Labour and Lib Dem Parties, doesn’t really understand the working class. Their patriotism is seen as a positive during times of conflict when they are required to fight for “King and Country”. They are then told to put it away to avoid offending anyone when it isn’t needed….
How patronising..
The idea that ‘the working class’ are a separate, homogeneous population with controlled Pavlovian responses was never true
@ expats,
It’s not patronising. The fall of the red wall in 2019 was a reality. It’s been a process that started well before Brexit. Whereas that was undoubtedly part of the explanation it’s not the complete answer. The Lib Dem party, themselves, recognised at the last election that there was little to be gained by targeting working class seats. So whereas you once had seats in Burnley and Rochdale you now don’t have any.
Nor is the problem confined to the UK. The US Democrats once had a solid working class base which has largely melted away.
You can’t blame that on Brexit!
@ Peter Martin
“The fall of the red wall in 2019 was a reality.
You can’t blame that on Brexit!”
Possibly something to do with the historic failure of socialism?
I found the Tory government telling local authorities to fly the national flag really offensive. It suggested that local councils were an arm of the state rather than a partnership with central government. For many years local governmemt has been undervalued and abused and constrained by national government.
– Peter Martin
White, male, homeowner, retiree, nice final salary pension, perhaps a couple of BTL properties, socially conservative, lives in a northern town = authentic voice of the working class.
Ethnic minority, female, renter, works in a bookshop, liberal left, lives in London = despised member of the metropolitan elite.
When James Kanagasooriam coined the term ‘red wall’ his point was not that they were bastions of the working class but that demographics would suggest these were natural Tory seats. Using ‘red wall’ as a shorthand for the working class only confirms that expats is correct. But it is not just that your view of the working class is patronising, what’s worse is that wittingly or not, you promote an entirely false picture of the working class manufactured by the right-wing media to undermine the left.
Two days an no commentor has linked in to this:
https://hopenothate.org.uk/2025/08/22/operation-raise-the-colours-organised-by-well-known-far-right-extremists/
At least a thousand, probably several thousand of those flags are coming straight out of the front rooms of the over far right. Farage, Tice, Jenrick and their ilk are happy to allow them to ramp up these issues and ride the waves of the racism that they fuel. Secretly they are probably hoping there will be riots as it will help them win votes
There doesn’t seem to be a recognition of what is actually happening in the country or understanding of how quickly it can get out of control.
@Peter Martin 28th Aug ’25 – 4:37pm..
My post was about ‘the working class’, as you call them, being made up of individuals and your response is a tirade about ‘Brexit’..
BTW ..regarding ‘Burnley’ for instance… That was a Tory held seat, Labour won it in 2024 with this party in second place with the Tories in third… Hardly a good example of a homogenous ‘bloc’..
@ Expats,
Yes you’re right in saying that prior to the LibDems winning it in 2010 Burnley was won by the Tories. But, that was in the General Election of 1910. The Liberals won it back later that year but, with the exception of the 1931 election when the seat was taken by the National Liberals, it was solidly Labour until the Red wall fell in 2019.
I can do “tirades” if you like, but they aren’t my style. I mention Brexit because it was a major factor in the fall of the Red Wall but the process of the disconnect between the established left and the working class started much earlier. It wasn’t the only factor. Too few Labour and Lib Dem politicians have any experience of doing an industrial job or of any participation in a Trades Union.
@ Andrew,
You’re wrong in thinking that social class is based on geographical location.
We do have Tories in the North too! They might speak with broader accents than you’d be used to in the Lib Dems but if they are rentiers they aren’t working class. They possibly live in the more prosperous areas. We have them too and they’ve historically always been Tory. Of course there have always been working class Tories up here too but they usually haven’t been sufficiently numerous to win many industrial seats until recent times.
Peter Martin 29th Aug ’25 – 9:18am…@ Expats,….with the exception of the 1931 election when the seat was taken by the National Liberals, it was solidly Labour until the Red wall fell in 2019…
I thought that, in the 2010 General Election, Burnley was won by Gordon Birtwistle LIBDEM..
@ expats,
I mentioned that the Lib dems won Burnley in 2010 in the first sentence. I didn’t think I needed to repeat it later.
The Labour vote there was, since the end of WW1, always pretty solid at about 50% of the total and sometimes reaching 60%. See the graph in the link below.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burnley_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
Burnley is interesting because between 1906 and January 1910 it had a Labour MP (Fred Maddison, former President of the TUC) – courtesy of the Gladstone-Macdonald pact of 1903.
Maddison had no money, but the Liberal Whip Jack Pease (a friend of Arthur Henderson) found funds to support his election and living expenses – payment of members only starting in 1911 (though Asquith opposed M.P.’s travel expenses from Westminster to their constituencies).
Maddison lost the seat in January 1910 (to the Tories -one of the Arbuthnot family , Eton & Oxford), but the Liberals retook the seat in December 1910 with Phillip Morrell (Eton & Oxford, and husband of Lady Ottoline Morrell of Garsington Manor in Oxfordshire).
Morrell later joined the Union of Democratic Control to oppose WW1, and lost his seat in the Coupon election of 1918.
Not sure whether any of them knew much about working in a cotton mill.
@Peter Martin 29th Aug ’25 – 8:34pm..
Sorry, I missed that bit..
Waving a flag is little more than attracting attention and acknowledging where we live. In specific circumstances it does indicate an allegiance to a certain position or grouping. I hope that the allowing of 16 & 17 year olds to vote will begin a process of political education that allows the electorate to move beyond posturing to a detailed grasp of political and social issues.