On the Times Red Box, Tim Farron has been writing about the Manchester attack:
Music brings people together, often in joy, and Ariana Grande’s music in particular is that infectious pop loved by children and young people. Monday’s concert will have been a rhapsody of happiness, laughter and unadulterated joy. The fact that anyone would look at that and see a target for their anger and hate is monstrous.
That is why this attack is of a different order, because of who the victims are. Who the attacker hoped his victims would be. It is not by chance that so many children have been caught up in this atrocity. It was a deliberate and calculated attack on innocence. And to me this is incomprehensible.
My thoughts and prayers go out to the family and friends of those who have lost their loved ones and to all those who wait by hospital beds and by phones for news of those who continue to fight for their lives. I cannot even begin to imagine the anguish being felt across Manchester right now as the families and city come to terms with what has happened.
Amongst all the horror there have been rays of light and hope. Our emergency services responded with great bravery and compassion and continue to work round the clock, either on the ongoing investigation into who is responsible and how this happened or in the hospitals caring for those injured in the attack.
The people of Manchester, who had every reason to lock their doors and protect themselves, instead threw their doors open to offer shelter to those fleeing the scene and offered their cars to ferry children to their parents and to places of safety. Fear was forgotten and instead a sense of community, neighbourly love and unity prevailed. These qualities reiterate the character of the city, the character of our nation – resilient, united and unbowed.
We must not forget these characteristics in the coming days and weeks. These terrorists, whoever they are and whoever’s flag they have tied themselves too, want to destroy our way of life. They hit us where they know it will hurt the most – our children. They want to weaken us, to divide us and thereby to conquer us. We will not let them win.
And a brief mention of the election campaign:
The campaign remains suspended, and rightly so, but when we return I hope that we will do so with a renewed vigour and commitment to our democracy, the very same democracy that these terrorists would like to see destroyed.
You can read the whole article here (£).
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In which my great great grandmother's brother stuffs a ptarmigan
Replacement?
Reform inadvertently lose their majority
Reform own goals
Peter Martin
Roland
Tristan Ward
Nonconformistradical
27 Comments
The younger the victims and the closer the attack it seems the harder it is. It’s affected people all over the world.
After the Bataclan attacks I felt despair and anger, yesterday was just sadness and tears. When you see the victims and their families searching for them.
Everyone will deal with it in their own way and have their own ideas for policy responses. For me, I want to protect Muslims but severely punish whoever was involved in this attack. A comfortable prison is too good for them. We need to make sure we have a strong deterrence.
I’m afraid the old style liberal politics is now over – people are looking for solutions. The Alt-Right and light-right bloggers/vloggers are now moving to the mainstream on this issue and the liberal left have only themselves to blame.
Yes it’s lovely to hold hands and light cancles. What people also want is to ask very tough questions and will demand political leaders give proper answers not the wishy washy stuff that Tim gives.
Here are a few:
1. What is being done in mosques regarding extremism and who is monitoring it?
2. What about a British bill of rights that rules out Sharia, enshrines womens rights and LGBT rights?
3. What’s being done about protecting against the islamisation of social policy on these issues?
4. What’s going on in British prisons around Muslim thugs taking them over?
Tim is such a good and decent man , the explosion so hideous and incomprehensible, I just say, firstly here and mainly now, yes, .
Yet the comments above reflect what I have been saying and feeling for years.
New Labour , which I supported went too far , statist , then went off them.
This party goes too far , too libertarian, I go off them too at times.
We must develop a robust Liberal Democracy in order to of necessity protect liberal democracy.
We should not commit to numbers of refugees in advance , nor demonise our opponents for not.
We should not seek to eliminate the Prevent strategy unless we have better to forge a way ahead.
We must not say no to every supposed intrusion into the internet unless we recognise that sometimes we are sounding naive.
We can steer a middle way between the statist and the libertarian.
It is time we did so.
At an LI event in London the Canadians recommended a kaleidoscope compared with the US policy of integration.
In “A most wanted man” the author David Cornwell (John Le Carre) assures us that parts of it are fictional, although closely comparable to reality. If, therefore the intelligence services are misunderstood it may partly be because they are secretive and partly because they might be doing things they should not. Reviewed as “terribly credible”. “One of the most important witnesses to our historical time”. I am reminded of the British ambassador to Uzbekistan, who reminded his colleagues about the policy against torture and spoke at a Lib Dem conference in York.
The US President was sincerely determined to close Guantanamo Bay. The how was difficult.
I admired Tim’s televised statement last night and I admire him for what he has written today. He has demonstrated his considerable emotional intelligence
@ James,
To show fortitude, resilience and an empathy, compassion and solidarity for strangers whose innocent lives have been blighted by wickedness is not wishy washy, it is a sign of strength and human decency. And it is this that is being demonstrated at the moment. Questions and solutions can come later.
james: We already enshrine womens rights and LGBT rights, and reject Sharia law. Liberals will take no lectures from the alt-right on these issues, as the alt-right are not genuinely interested in women’s or LGBT rights, quite the opposite. They are generally totally opposed to both, but happy to use them as a stick to beat all Muslims with. The alt-right are equivalents of the Islamist terrorists, standing for complete rejection of democracy and liberal values. You have a choice. Either support civil society by embracing liberal values, or reject it by supporting the alt-right or their Islamist allies.
The alt-right are using scape goats. That works fine until you get into power and then their lack of ability tends to find them out. You only have to look at Trump too see that. Strangely enough Islamists are not dissimilar, they to look for scape goats and when they achieve power their lack of ability becomes all too apparent. I suspect that both camps suffer from the same fault, an inability to see any problems as anything to do with them, it’s just someone else who has caused it because they are exceptional.
Alex Macfie and frankie – sorry you’re too late. The left and centre left are stuffed in this election as they are so flim flam.
Big question – what happens when muslims decide to set up their own political party? They then decide to have policies that persuade on the edges you know `oh we don’t want a gay club within xxx metres of erm a religious place`. You know our Halal food `can we have in law halal food shelves of supermarkets above xxx sq ft`. What would you actually say to that?
LGBT and womens rights are relatively new. They need to be enshrined in a `charter of values`. People don’t want to have to refight for these rights.
The Alt-Right is what happens when liberals get lazy. Sargon of Akkad and Tim Pool should be seen as a firewall they’re literally doing your dirty work for you. Lib Dems need to be that firewall against extremism by thinking hard thoughts, saying the unsayable and demanding answers. But you don’t understand that which is why you’re going to lose.
But as I say this terror outrage has virtually given May more seats and secured her victory. And the Liberal Left are partly to blame. Lib Dems are so politically uncompetitive its’ untrue.
James.
The thing is most of these problems are caused by the ideas of the Right. Religion, regime change, war, economic inequality and so on. The Alt Right is actually what happens when nasty people hide their nastiness behind a veneer identity politics. The Thing about ISIS is they are of the Right.
And the left are doing NOTHING about it. Where’s the dialogue, where’s the policy innovations, where’s the intellectual bravery in saying `we were wrong`. As for the Right in my opinion the problem in my opinion is with the flim flam farronite liberalism. We need post-liberalism that protects those at the bottom while being a firewall against extremism. I think that the liberal left have FAILED – there’s a need to push them under the bus before they push minorities under the bus through their own timidity.
James
We do not need a post Liberalism, we need a robust Liberal Democratic agenda and stance.
There is a discussion on Lloyd George, Asquith, etc., on here. These and many others were strong , tough politicians, nothing wishy washy therein at all !
There have been many in this party who are stronger on the issues you allude to. Vince Cable, Paddy Ashdown, Shirley Williams , Roy Jenkins, these are not wall flowers or blushing violets.
The greatest exponent of Liberalism ever in many ways, John Stuart Mill, argued in favour of the death penalty for murder, only, but some , already were strongly campaigning for abolition.
It is possible in dark times or in response to dreadful actions, to utilise the same philosophy , but sharpen it , develop it , expand it.
This party is , you are correct , not competitive electorally with other parties, it is too intent on being content with a USP or two, or more, not representing popular opinion enough. It has the daft idea that would mean populism, without realising popularity, is there to be had for the asking instead !
I have coined the phrase , the missing pages theory. As in a movie screenplay , so , too, in a policy document, sometimes ,it seems a few pages of the plot or policy are missing, like , in our case in this party , at times, the tougher bits !
Classic example, free the prisons of non violent offenders, fine, often said, often good.
Why in the same sentence, not add, so we can keep the wicked where they belong for longer ?!
And, yes, very good to legalise cannabis, why not also emphasise , that we want to come down heavier on the hard drug pushers and dealers. That is our stance, but how often is it heard?!
Freedom of movement another policy not well explained, the EU does not require it , it requires freedom of labour , not the same thing, it only gives the right to apply for a job and settle then only, not without one !
The Liberals , and Liberalism , of , say the Jo Grimond sort, were ten times more realistic and five times more tough in their policies, compared to today.
I know many agree with me, in the party locally, nationally, o this site too. But the left , right, old vs new Liberal debate, pre Clegg , anti Clegg , all that nonsense appeals to some more.
We are not in an era of post Liberalism or pro alt right era.
We are in an era when only one kind of anything seems to dominate.
James
“Big question – what happens when Muslims decide to set up their own political party?”
There was an Islamic Party of Britain set up by an English convert. It didn’t attract much support. The Respect Party no longer exists.
There are Christian Parties, they garner little support.
james 24th May ’17 – 11:14pm
Alex Macfie and frankie – sorry you’re too late. The left and centre left are stuffed in this election as they are so flim flam….
But as I say this terror outrage has virtually given May more seats and secured her victory. And the Liberal Left are partly to blame. Lib Dems are so politically uncompetitive its’ untrue…..
And your answer seems to be to try and ‘out-right’ the Tory/Ukip alliance on this? No chance…
We have our values they have theirs (and long may that continue)..We’ve tried being ‘Tory-lite’; now it seems you suggest being ‘Tory-Right’ as the way forward……..
Being susceptible to such attacks is, sadly, the price we pay for being a democratic and open society. Even the most draconian regimes are subject to such attacks; I’m not sure how restrictive a society we’d have to become to dramatically reduce the risk but I wouldn’t want to live in it…
@ James,
Members of the Libyan community wee informing the authorities about this mass murderer. Our biggest defence is, what it has always ben, that the communities in which people live report concerns to the authorities. It seems that on this occasion these concerns may not have been acted upon.
There was some work done on by the LSE on the possible effect of cut- backs in policing that took place after 2010, I will find it for you when I have the time.
@ James,
Apologies for the typing mistakes- type in haste, repent at leisure.
There is a lot of anger on this page. What we need to do is retain our liberal values and work towards global equality and more diplomacy. Oh, and love your enemy!
The best way to get rid of Sharia law is education of women. Not banning it
Meg,
I think the best way of getting rid of bad things is by directly challenging them and saying no it’s not acceptable. If there is a problem with liberal and left wing thought (I think it is a little overplayed) at the moment it’s a lack of interest in policing it properly. You can have all kinds of policies about what is right, but you have to be willing to enforce them. There hasn’t been a single conviction for FGM for example and little movement on the arranged marriages of children. These are not educational, but criminal matters that should be treated with the same force as any other form of child abuse. Cultural sensitivity has it’s place, but not when it is in direct conflict with the law.
A posted a very measure on-topic post last night, trying to help liberals recognise where they might need a re-think. I note the post was disallowed, how very liberal. Shame as this maintaining of the echo chamber is the last thing you guys need.
I think we need to remember this was yet another home grown terrorist .This young man like many before him did not feel part of our culture and society .How do we make these angry young men and women feel part of our nation and that their concerns over an anti muslem statements now being propogated by UKIP and their fellow travellers does not represent British values of an open tolerant and united kingdom .
Agree with policy that we should do more at a community level but also believe we should continue to challenge intolerance, bigotry and racism .
Neil
Home grown?. His dad from the sound of it was one of our “moderate” anti Gaddafi allies. His older brother seems to have been arrested along with others. He flitted backwards and forwards between Syria and Libya. Known hotspots. We seriously need to stop pretending that ME derived hard line political Islam is home grown just because some of its proponents move or were born here. We also need to stop pretending it is anything more than a really bad set of ideas that appeals to a tiny proportion of nasty people and be very clear about what is and isn’t acceptable.
As a radical Liberal I have difficulty with the notion of hereditary monarchy.
Having said that, I to raise my hat to our 91 year old Queen for making the effort and going to Manchester to visit the injured. Well done, Madam and thank you.
@David Raw
As a radical Liberal, who should be her successor if you had your wish?
It’s a toss up between Jeremy Corbyn and Nigel Farage providing they are stripped of all power. I draw the line at Kelvin Mackenzie but if the result goes right on Monday the manager of Huddersfield Town is in the running !!
What’s your suggestion ?
Expats
You defend our Liberalism here correctly and eloquently, but James may be wrong on the detail or potential solutions, but , as I say above , you can have Liberalism , robust, without being Tory lite, as you have implied some of us are sometimes, or , as David Raw once accused me and colleagues of , being , ” sentimental , sanctimonious , UKIPlite!
David
And having quoted you above , you are now recommending Farage as our monarch ?!
It was meant as a compliment to say I was being UKIPlite on patriotism then ???!!!
@ Neil Sandison
“I think we need to remember this was yet another home grown terrorist .This young man like many before him did not feel part of our culture and society .How do we make these angry young men and women feel part of our nation”
It is possible that the father of this terrorist did not see his future or his family’s future in the UK, but wanted to return to Libya.
However there is an issue about religious belief with regard to Islamic terrorism, but I am not sure there is any answer. I remember Christian fundamentalists I once knew and there was nothing that could be said to them to change their belief. There was no authority they recognised that could change their belief. The question is how can society stop someone rejecting liberal critical thought and replacing it with a fundamentalist religious belief that is not open to rational challenge? I don’t have an answer. Can children be educated in school to reject the basis of fundamental beliefs? I don’t know.
“Can children be educated in school to reject the basis of fundamental beliefs? I don’t know.”
Not in segregated schools.