“Corbyn wants a hard-right Brexit. Progressives must fight back, not follow” – that is the uncompromising headline to an article by Vince Cable in today’s Guardian.
Vince claims:
It is a paradox not lost on many Labour MPs that while their leader is to the left even of Michael Foot, he has collaborated with the right more than any Labour leader since Ramsay MacDonald. Jeremy Corbyn’s insistence that Brexit means leaving the single market and customs union – unpicking Keir Starmer’s carefully woven tapestry of ambiguity – now puts him in the same place as Theresa May and Liam Fox. That place is to the hard right of British politics.
He goes on:
I am genuinely puzzled by the position of Labour’s leadership. It could be rationalised as reflecting the politics of leave-dominated constituencies. But the leadership has taken principled positions in other areas. Moreover, it is seriously at odds with voters in London and Scotland, and the trade union movement.
…
More generally, outside the time warp of the British far-left, European progressive parties have recognised that the liberalising forces of the single market are balanced by strong environmentalism, consumer protection and labour standards: precisely that which the Conservative right is determined to get rid of once we “take back control”.
So what can Liberal Democrats do?
Tribalism gets in the way of sensible collaboration in British politics. But I want to reach out to Labour MPs privately angry that they are being ordered into the division lobbies to vote for Theresa May’s extreme Brexit. It is time we were more grown-up in politics and worked together where there is common ground. There are also sensible Conservative MPs who understand that Britain is stronger in the single market and customs union.
You can read the full article here.
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43 Comments
The Labour Left has never quite fallen in love with the Common Market/EEC/EC/EU to anywhere near the same extent as the centrists in the Blairite wing of their party or the Lib Dems. The Blairites and Lib Dems are blind to the faults of their beloved.
Whereas you see someone, or something, who can do no wrong, the Labour Left sees neoliberals and ordoliberals busily subverting what’s left of EU democracy and destroying the economies on which we all rely.
There’s arguments either way on the EU. But “Corbyn wants a hard-right Brexit” ??
That’s just nonsense.
If Corbyn supporters say that his position is not to support “Hard Brexit”, they should point out where he differs from The Tories & where he has voted against their plans.
What Corbyn “really, really wants” is a Government like that in Venezuela & being in The EU would prevent that.
We nipped for a drink after work. One of my colleagues only last week was telling us how much he loved Jezza, he was poetic in his love for him. Today Brexit raised it’s head and I pointed out old Jezza was a brave Brexiteer, he went all sad panda and muttered I know, can we talk about the footie. Not feeling the love anymore, perhaps that is why Labour are moving haven and earth to get back on that dammed wall.
Peter Martin. Wrong on both counts.
1. LibDems – along with our sister parties all over the EU – know of many changes that need to take place in the EU and have campaigned for them and will continue to do so.
2. How is voting with the Tories for the article 50 bill and refusing to support moves to stay in the single market and customs union not supporting a hard Brexit? Because that what Mr Corbyn and his whips are forcing Labour MPs (and peers) to do. It’s not clever, it’s not nuanced and it’s deeply damaging to the UK.
Vince – Give me a Norway option and I’ll vote for it.
That said that full Guardian article is interesting in that it does seem to hint at what Vince would like to see changed within the EU. Presumably he thinks those changes can be delivered. I’m not entirely convinced. And there is a big free movement-shaped hole in his thinking. But it’s good to see something solid.
As it stands a lot of people need to stop kidding themselves. There is more chance of me driving for McLaren this weekend than there is of Juncker getting anything more than hot air on the social rights pillar. The EU is what it is and until some of the starry-eyed take a much more robust look at ‘the project’ we’ll just go round in circles.
Mick Taylor –
‘[Lib Dems] know of many changes that need to take place in the EU and have campaigned for them and will continue to do so.’
Really? Do you have an illustration? Serious question – not getting at you.
‘refusing to support moves to stay in the single market and customs union not supporting a hard Brexit?’
Norway isn’t in the customs union. Staying in the SM and accessing it are not the same.
The problem is there’s nothing to deal with. The EU position is pretty rigid, continue to pay, accept the four freedoms and so on. Negotiation requires compromise on both sides. Hard Brexit is not a choice, it’s simply what happens when either side refuses to budge. So far the EU shows even less sign of budging than the UK government and of course a lot of remain supports want that coz really they just hope Brexit can be halted.
As for the argument that Corbyn has collaborated with the Tory Right. Not really, the only area of agreement is on the issue of how to approach leaving the EU. He’s not voted budgets through or anything.
I saw Vince today on the TV calling the transition period to hard brexit just like kicking the problem can down the road, I thought it was great.
I thought this piece in the Guardian was a bit negative, but I’m nitpicking really. We need to get behind Vince and I’m pleased that he has been so active.
Let’s mostly talk about the reasons why to vote for us, rather than against others, although I’m aware it creates a bigger story when you attack people rather than being boring.
Momentum are trying to make Vince out to be some kind of right winger, when if anything he is on the left, so we need to respond. When they bang on about austerity just point out that Labour aren’t promising to undo all the changes since 2010.
Eddie
In particular point out that Labour prioritise giving money to middle and upper class graduates over reversing Tory post 2015 benefit cuts! Not in their manifesto and they did not vote against them in 2015 (Corbyn did! Now he doesn’t talk about it ..)
If Vince is on the left, why did he privatise Royal Mail?
I believe Labour want out of the EU so that there can be no constraints on the Big State, no restraint on wealth grabbing, no restraint on nationalization without compensation, no real redress by citizens against arrogant government/council officials who will flout their little red book of rules.
The promised equality will consist of one set of workers digging up holes, another filling it in, etc., all supervised by highly paid government cadres; repeated again and again across all sectors. Everyone will be highly paid but so heavily taxed to pay for the nonsense that no-one will be better off than those on benefits… except for the MP’s who will get tax free bonuses for a job well done.
Labour needs to be absolutely ridiculed at every opportunity.
Richard Easter 29th Jul ’17 – 8:19am: If Vince is on the left, why did he privatise Royal Mail?
The plan had his stamp of approval.
@peter Martin is wrong to suggest that Lib Dems are “blind to the faults of their beloved”. “4 hours ago I listened to Vince enumerating changes needed in the EU. Amongst these was over bureaucracy and over centralisation.as I recall. Most significantly he recalled Clegg’s error in the televised debate with Farage in responding that he foresaw the EU in 15 years time “much the same as it is now”
Little Jackie Paper 28th Jul ’17 – 11:09pm: If you want to drive a Formula 1 car just enter the lottery that the Channel 4 offers, although there is a faster road legal car available for £2,500,000 from the VW-Audi group, badged as a Bugatti, as reviewed in the Sunday Times recently by Jeremy Clarkson. Be careful though, someone pranged a brand new Ferrari on the M1 recently. The car was a total write-off.
@Richard Easter
“If Vince is on the left, why did he privatise Royal Mail?”
Sorry, but where do you get the idea that Vince “is on the left”?
People like Corbyn are on the left. Vince is part of the centre ground of British politics.
Eddie Sammon 28th Jul ’17 – 11:24pmMomentum are trying to make Vince out to be some kind of right winger, when if anything he is on the left, so we need to respond. When they bang on about austerity just point out that Labour aren’t promising to undo all the changes since 2010…….
Vince on the left? Old ‘twinkle toes’ is all things to all men..Have we forgotten his Tory support on just about everything during his coalition years? He declared it, “His ‘duty’ to vote in favour of the rise in university tuition fees”; he showed utter contempt for tenants under security of tenure and was THE prime mover in the introduction of Employment Tribunal fees….
Recently he urged voters to support Labour candidates (even against his LibDem candidate in Ealing) and his ruling out LibDem support for May with, “Having mated with a praying mantis once we are not going to do it again” (obviously not; the male (like the LibDems) never emerges unscathed)….
So, pick your Vince..But be quick, like the UK weather he’s changeable…
In the above photo they look so happy with each other. Two fake remainers together !
Christopher Haigh – ‘Two sincere remainers together’ – there, I’ve corrected your typo for you. The photo might have been staged but Vince & Tim are quite genuine.
……sorry, recovering from illness, posted in the wrong thread!
Jeremy Corbyn has stated on numerous occasions that he doesn’t want the UK to end up like Singapore or some other country based on low taxes post-Brexit. I don’t believe that Corbyn or the Labour party want a hard right or ‘extreme Brexit.’
I actually find myself agreeing with Barry Gardiner’s article and the reasons he put forward. The lesson that needs to be learned from the 2017 general election is that it was economic matters and Labour’s alternative under Corbyn that helped them win seats. Some may feel betrayed that Labour wants to move forward and implement Brexit – but I think the single market has more resonance with politicos than it does the majority of the general populace.
Good point Andrew McCaig. The Lib Dems were promising to increase spending on the poorest by more than Labour at the last election, I believe.
Vince has often been fond of a progressive alliance with Labour MPs. He wouldn’t be like that if he was on the right.
Anyway I’m not saying we should compete with Labour on who is the most socialist, just that the Vince right-wing caricature doesn’t stack up and neither does the halo image around Corbyn.
“Jeremy Corbyn has stated on numerous occasions that he doesn’t want the UK to end up like Singapore or some other country based on low taxes post-Brexit. I don’t believe that Corbyn or the Labour party want a hard right or ‘extreme Brexit.’ ”
Hmm, Singapore, given the constraints of its size has a remarkably successful roll out of subsidized/social housing even though the private sector housing is very expensive and land prices therefore at a London-ish premium. It has a fully funded pension system (the NI contributions actually placed in a national fund) and manages to avoid the widespread resentment of the poor against the rich and the rich against benefit supplicants that we have in the UK. Huge amount of immigrants working there from poorer asian countries does not seem to cause the same resentment, probably because they do not have the same access to social welfare as the locals. All of the social stuff paid for out of the general success of the economy whilst the locals have excellent education possibilities and a very positive attitude in general. What’s not to like?
To Little Jackie Piper: the issue is no longer about what we should like to be reformed in the EU. It is about trying to remain in the EU. We can’t reform the EU from the outside. We have to be in it to win it. In any case, whether we are in or out, the more pressing problem is reforming the broken UK political system.
@ Nick Hopkinson,
“the issue is no longer about what we should like to be reformed in the EU. It is about trying to remain in the EU”
Reform and remain aren’t really separate issues. I feel sure that we’d easily win a majority to stay in a reformed EU. By reforming themselves, especially fixing their unemployment problem they’d be doing themselves a favour. People would be leaving the UK to work in the EU in at least equal numbers to those moving in this direction.
A healthier EU would be a better market for UK exports. Or trade deficit would fall and the government’s budget deficit with it.
So what’s the problem? Sadly I think we all know that, although there shouldn’t be a problem, there will be for the foreseeable future. We won’t be able to do anything about it, whether or not we’re in the EU ourselves.
@ Peter Martin
While Vince doesn’t use the terms neoliberal and ordoliberal he did say, “The asymmetrical demand management policies that have been pursued within the eurozone, at the behest of rigid advocates of German fiscal orthodoxy, have been very damaging to countries such as Greece and Italy. But they aren’t just an offence against the ideas of the left; they are bad economics. Leaders like Macron who understand that the need for a European Germany rather than a German Europe could (especially with help from the UK) change direction. Those who speak most eloquently against these policies, like Yanis Varoufakis, have argued for Britain to remain in the EU.”
All Liberal Democrats need to recognise that the Eurozone is run according to German fiscal orthodox and that the “stability and growth pact” is the wrong policy.
@Simon Shaw “Sorry, but where do you get the idea that Vince “is on the left”?”
You are right Vince Cable supported: trebling student fees, Employment Tribunals fees, Bedroom Tax, secret courts, caps on welfare benefits, against raising income tax for those earning more than £150k whilst supporting a reduction in Corporation Tax, NHS reorganisation, cuts to local council funding, privatisation of forests and restricting legal aid. What a record – the Orange-bookers must be delighted he is the LibDem leader, I’m sure Jeremy Corbyn is.
Dave Orbison,
But he did look grumpy about it.
Dave
I criticise the policies of the coalition that were Conservative led, in a government this party had a fifth of the representation within.
What was the majority Labour governments reason for , bedroom tax introduced for private tenents , ie most of them, charges galore for admin not a million miles from the tribunal charges, ie for visa, for citizenship, for residency, restrictions in legal aid with a moving to no win no fee, introducing tuition fees , when they said they wouldn’t, work capability test , Atos contract, ninety day detention, etc
All governments make great and significant mistakes , some do real good too.
The coalition , unlike most, was precisely that, a shared responsibility.
What we know is most of the lousy policies were introduced by the Conservatives, some rejected, or fought by our party, some not as well as should have been so.
We could also start on about Corbyn and his good record of opposing those policies of his party and other parties, but we might then have to be as balanced and give the many examples of his terrible judgement and support for some awful governments and organisations that make the coalition appear like Walt Disney productions favourite ever film !
Re Jeremy Corbyn and Hard Brexit – I don’t accept that Labour’s position is the same as the Tories. There have been numerous statements from Corbyn that makes he simply has not signed up to what the Tories will do.
Those that are attempting to portray Labour as Hard Brexit are doing so for their own political agenda. Whilst I understand why they, like Vince Cable, are doing this, they are simply in danger of polarising views on a complex issue yet again into a simple Yes/No. This is precisely what happened in the referendum. Instead of a considered debate and an acknowledgement that there are differences of opinion and some grey areas both sides presented the arguments in a rather hectoring and patronising ‘it’s our way or no way’ approach.
For those of us that did not support Brexit i will simply observe that this approach didn’t end well and we would be foolish not to learn from our mistakes.
Many chose to attack Corbyn over his truthful “7/10 score IN FAVOUR of EU membership” Ludicrously suggesting this was proof he wanted out. It felt like some in the Labour PLP and LibDems were hijacking the EU Referendum to attack Corbyn for political and opportunistic reasons. And in Vince Cable’s comments I am bound to say “Here we go again”.
In reality Corbyn has been working behind the scenes quietly, diplomatically talking with EU parties and individuals in the EU. He has shown himself to me more willing to talk and listen and has been well received. It is a sharp contrast to the shrill grandstanding nonsense we have had so far from May, Fox, Johnson and Davies and the Tory Brexiters, not to mention the Tory Press.
I suspect Corbyn is savvy enough to appreciate that as the grim reality of Brexit sinks in, the public mod which supported Brexit narrowly, will decisively swing against the idea. In such circumstances I believe Corbyn will have an alternative to Hard Brexit. Of course I may be wrong but only time will tell. As in any delicate negotiations as much depends on the timing as the content of the offer.
But if Vince Cable thinks attacking Labour is the way to restore LibDem’s fortunes then the Tories will, once again been so indebted to him and we can be absolutely sure that a Hard Brexit will follow.
Lorenzo – re the Coalition – there was an alternative – and the DUP have given a text book case of how to hold a Government to heel with a Supply and Confidence and extracted a heavy price for doing so. It underlines how weak the LibDems defence of the Coalition is. You refer to mistakes. But this is part of the problem. The LibDem Party cannot decide if the Coalition was a mistake or something to be proud of. If the party membership can’t decide then why should the electorate take them seriously. Though, if in doubt, look at the decimation of the party since the Coalition – there’s a hint.
It’s ironic that many here have criticised Corbyn for his track record of voting against a Labour Government on many issues. Their loathing for Corbyn prevented them from examining the details of his rebellion. For on almost all, if not all, his judgement has been fully vindicated. As for his ‘associations’. Did we have enough of all that with Lyton Crosby, Daily Main and The Sun. Whether is be on the future of Ireland or a two party state re Israel – you have to engage with both sides to make progress. That’s what he did. Thank goodness people are prepared to take difficult paths on difficult issues without fear of what it may do to their image. I think that’s Leadership.
Corbyn didn’t “engage with both sides” on eithger of the issues you mentioned. In both Ireland and Israel, he “engaged” (if that’s what you call his uncritical support) with one side only, and in its most extreme form. On Ireland, he talked only to Sinn Fein/IRA, and denounced as “sell-outs” those on the nationalist side who wanted to engage with Unionists. On Israel, he sides with Hamas in opposing the existence of the state of Israel. He does not support a two-state solution, he supports a one-state solution.
Dave
I think the party is pretty united in the view that the coalition was not a mistake, but it made mistakes.
For many of us ,the extent of the latter ,makes us decide on a view of the former .
In my view the mistakes were enough to question whether coalition without pr is in any way worth it.
Corbyn has qualities that I like.
He has many I do not.
Dave, even if , no , especially if , I were as, years ago in my youthful enthusiasm, in the Labour party, I could not put the cultural revolution type of rewrite of or reinterpretation of history, that you manage to, on Corbyn’s associations.
I shall not list them, but , as a friendly gesture, I say, let us not feel we have to kid ourselves that as leftish or , in fact, radical centrish , liberal or Liberal , understanding, we have to say he was some sort of Mother Theresa crossed with Princess Diana, in his love for others, shaking hands with all sorts !
Dave Orbison “if Vince Cable thinks attacking Labour is the way to restore Lib-Dems fortunes…..”.
Vince is pointing out the way that Corbyn is seen not to be attacking the Conservatives’ approach to Brexit; Vince is appealing to those in Labour who would agree with that and indeed to some Conservatives. However, I would agree with Dave; I continue to meet people who support Lib-Dem views on this and many other things, but are so opposed to the Conservatives, especially on inequality in the UK, that they like Corbyn’s vision. These people have voted for us in the past, but not in this last election and that goes for some of our members, who voted tactically for Labour in order to stop a Tory candidate getting in. That clearly shows that Vince is in danger of not getting the support we need any more than Tim did; attacking Corbyn may not produce the results we want.
I meant to add at the end of my comment, that Vince should be attacking the Conservatives much more than Corbyn and not only on Brexit.
At least we now have a leader who sounds like he means it when he attacks Labour.
Nigel Jones 29th Jul ’17 – 10:53pm……I meant to add at the end of my comment, that Vince should be attacking the Conservatives much more than Corbyn and not only on Brexit…..
Vince’s difficulty is that he is on record as enthusiastically supporting many of the current Tory policies…I again note that, on one of the most dramatic u-turns (Employment Tribunal Fees) forced upon this government (a policy that should/would have been an anathema to this party), there is a deafening silence…
@Dave Orbison
“Re Jeremy Corbyn and Hard Brexit – I don’t accept that Labour’s position is the same as the Tories. There have been numerous statements from Corbyn that makes he simply has not signed up to what the Tories will do.”
You’re not wrong there. You only problem is that Corbyn’s position is far, far worse than the Tories’. And, just to be clear, I am talking about Corbyn’s position rather than the Labour Party’s.
We can all do a lot worse than read what the excellent Hugo Rifkind has to say (25th July):
Another misconception, albeit one that may have somewhat hit the skids this weekend past, is the idea that Corbyn, at heart, is sad that we are leaving the European Union. “So what,” his Remainer supporters shrug, “if he voted to leave the common market (1975), voted against the single market (1986), opposed Maastricht (1992), opposed Lisbon (2007), and campaigned for Remain (last year) with all the keen enthusiasm of a chap with vicious haemorrhoids having his annual prostate check-up? He’s still one of us!”
This misconception survived even his sacking of three shadow ministers for backing a pro-single market amendment to the Queen’s Speech, which led Nigel Farage, of all people, to declare “he’s almost a proper chap”. Billy Bragg, the folk singer, immediately declared that Corbyn must be playing a cunning “long game”, with a plan to soften Brexit once the Tories had self-destructed over it. Hey, it’s a theory. This weekend, the Labour leader told the BBC that his party would leave the single market so as to end “wholesale importation of underpaid workers from central Europe”. Is this the great antidote to Tory Brexit? Is it the politics that the crowds of Glastonbury gathered to cheer?
@Dave Orbison “if Vince Cable thinks attacking Labour is the way to restore Lib-Dems fortunes…..”
I think this has been a fundamental flaw in Lib Dem strategy over the last few years.
I can understand a desire to replace Labour as the main opposition to the Tories, but surely the best way to do that is to demonstrate that the party is better at opposing the Tories than Labour is.
The chosen approach, prioritising attacks on the left wing of Labour, seems designed to show alignment with the Tories rather than opposition, and risks making the Lib Dems look redundant if the Blairite wing of the Labour party recovers.
Indeed, the direction of travel indicated by recent threads on this site seems to be a positioning of the Lib Dems as “Tories for Europe”. Superficially this is attractive since there are plenty of pro-Europeans in the Tory party, but if Brexit goes pear-shaped and they seize the reins of their party then the Lib Dems will look redundant. The same would apply to courting pro-EU Labour votes: there seems to be a self-destructive pattern in Lib Dem tactics!. This is why the Lib Dems should be emphasising the specific policies on which the party agrees (what it is for and what it wants to do rather than what it is against and wants to stop) and which would make the party an attractive home for liberal voters once the anti-Brexit stance has got their attention.
Peter Watson – yes having read LDV over several years, with some notable exceptions, the comments do seem to have drifted to the right. I have put that down to many giving up on the LibDems, certainly post Coalition and going off to Labour, Greens or just giving up.
As you highlight there is a perpetual barrier to LibDem and one of their own making. The past and current leadership make a rather ridiculous claim that they intend to be THE party of Opposition- presumably to the Tory Government. Just how they intend to do this whilst attacking Corbyn who has taken over 40% of the vote and a party membership approaching 600,000 is beyond me.
Not least as so many still maintain the Coalition was right.
@ Mick Taylor,
Do you make any distinction between a hard Brexit and a hard right Brexit?
There’s degrees of hardness re Brexit. It’s not just a matter of soft v hard. We can be in the Single Market and the Customs Union. We can be in the customs union but not the single market. We can be out of both.
Even if we are out out of the single market we can still have some kind access. So that does require the triggering of Art 50. To not trigger it means no Brexit at all. Not just a soft Brexit.
Who knows what we’ll get. It isn’t going to be decided by either the Labour Party or the Lib Dems. The Tories got more votes in the election so its down to them now.
Not least as so many still maintain the Coalition was right.
Yep. The Coalition was the Lib Dems undoing. In the 00’s the Lib Dems were well to the left of the Labour Party and they picked up a good deal of support from many who were disillusioned with Blairism. The Lib Dems got it right in their opposition to the Iraq war.
Getting into bed with the Tories drove all that leftish support away. Vince Cable is seen as the architect of the privatisation of the Royal Mail which was a step too far even for Margaret Thatcher. So is his appointment as leader going to anything at all to bring it back?
Perhaps we are asking too much of Jeremy Corbyn by expecting a coherent approach to Brexit. He has so many conflicting drivers. It must be tempting for him to alter his spots according to his environment.
Personally,
I don’t pretend I can read minds, That’s the problem with a lot t of this pro and anti Corbyn stuff. It’s all about sensing hidden motives and imaging what someone else is thinking. In fact a fair amount of remain rhetoric seems to rest the ability of seers, mind readers and so on. The public has changed its mind, Corbyn thinks this, May thinks that, Brexiteers think the other. It really is moderately boggling.