What a load of drivel. Whereas Jenny Tonge’s remarks were over the top, that’s no excuse to pander to a lobby group that justifies human rights violations on a regular basis and clearly has no concept of Liberalism or democracy.

I’ve never met Gavin Stollar, but I’m aware that he has a dramatically over-inflated sense of his own importance. Maybe others should launch a campaign to get him removed from whatever connections with the Liberal Democrats he holds?

The best that can be said of this nonsense is that it’s a very silly knee-jerk reaction by the leadership which seems to have been afflicted by the typical leader’s bunker mentality rather sooner than usual.

I don’t know whether what Jennie says about the party is true now but I know from personal experience that it was certainly true in the past.

As for Mr. Stollar, he seems to be desperate to prove that Jennie’s allegations are true!

Tony Greaves

So Tony – the pro-Israeli lobby had a ‘financial grip’ on the Lib Dems? We’re not talking expressing understanding of suicide bombing or outrage at Israeli actions – this is clear and simple anti-semitism.

There’s no need to remove Jenny Tonge from the benches, her views are clearly right at home in the party.

I really do worry about our party sometimes. Since when has objecting to someone using blatantly anti-semitic allusions been restricting free speech. This has got absolutely NOTHING to do with Israel, Palestinians and the Middle East. It has got everything to do with someone who takes our Party’s Whip in the Lords using imagery which certainly predates the creation of the State of Israel and could have been used by Goebbels, Mosley or Stalin.

What Jenny said was anti-semitic pure and simple and if as a Party we wish to support that I for one, as a former party employee, constituency chair and activist do not feel I have a place left here.

I’d have expected better of Ming. Surely he, with his distinguished career as foreign spokesperson, knows only too well that there’s a world of difference between being anti-semitic and anti-Israeli?

However, it’s a really sad day for Liberal Democrats, with a policy of freedom of speech and expression and a home affairs spokesperson like Nick Clegg calling for a great repeal bill to give us back our civil rights, when our leader is threatening members of our own party for exercising their right to freedom of expression.

It seems at one extreme you cannot say anything about Muslims and now Jews without calling you anti-Islamic or anti-semetic.
Now as I have said i am a Muslim and would welcome any and all opinions on the religion, in fact I am one who slates it more than most.
However what would happen if I voiced a apprently un-pc view of the Jewish religion?
Most would call me anto-semetic, why? are certain religions unthouchable, if so I fear we are on a very slippery slope.
Religion as politics should be discussed and prodded as much as or more so than anything else. After all nearly every war in history is due to religious differences.
I have friends/family of various religions and we often talk about religion and the part it plays in the world. However not once has anyone I know got offended by my views or I by theirs. Why? because it is our right to disagree and even dislike aspects of any religion, ours or someone elses. What this means is we all know where we stand and can argue but remain on friendly terms.
Those who over react or threatin violence have lost the argument and like a child lash out.
I don’t have much time for Jenny Tong, but for Ming to sensor her is absurd. Concentrate on your bloody job Ming, that’s more of a worry than what Tong has to say!

I don’t think using the phrase ‘financial grip’ is a ‘very, very’ different thing, and I don’t understand how it has any relevance at all to the anti-Israel/anti-Semitic debate.

As others, I’m of the belief that ‘pro-israel’ and ‘Jewish’ are entirely different things, and hence consider the accusations of anti-semitism to lack much foundation.

I do think Jenny’s comments were OTT, but the notion she should be thrown out of the party for them is absurd.

I also think the difference between criticising the Israeli government and using the label ‘pro-Israeli’ to cover yourself when making other sorts of statements is fairly big.

Yes, she said ‘Israeli’ rather than ‘Jewish,’ but by using the words ‘financial grips’ and painting a generally sinister conspiracy-type picture she tapped into old prejudices concerning the ethnic group to which most Israelis belong.

Exactly.

Presumably those of you who defend Tonge would also defend Robert Kilroy-Silk for his comments which were made under the guise of attacking “Arab regimes”? Or might you perhaps be applying different standards in different cases?

He made racist remarks about Arabs generally, predicated mostly on the idea that they supported what the regimes did.

The fact that one can attack a country’s regime but not its people does not automatically mean that attacks on a government are never motivated by ethnic prejudice against its country’s people. I cannot believe that remarks about “financial grip” and so on were merely inadvertent or unfortunate.

I think at the very least her comments were unhelpful. Whether or not they were intended to be anti-semitic it would not take a genius to work out that they could be interpreted as such. Therefore someone of her experience should have known better than to make such comments. That’s why I do not have any sympathy for her.

Those people who say ‘hold on there is a difference between being anti-semitic and anti Israeli government policy’ are absolutely right. I do not think any liberal would dispute that. They should accept that in this case the claim that her comments are anti-semitic is a precise claim and not just a sloppy conpounding of anti-semitic and anti-Israeli.

All too often political activists of all persuasions find it difficult to accept criticism of their friends, allies, leaders or heroes. Sometimes we just have to accept their shortcomings. I think on this occassion Baroness Tonge let down the party and those people whose views she is a voice for. I do not think there should be a witch-hunt against her but I do think she should publicly apologise for her intemperet language.

Free speech has been persistently under attack by the pro-Zionist lobbies. Its not just in the political world – campuses – those cradles of open discussion – have been under intense assault. Consider this case, for example:

http://www.socialistunitynetwork.co.uk/reports/slapped.htm

Student slapped down for defending Palestinian right to resist

by RICHARD SEYMOUR

Axiomatically, leading academic institutions involve intense and varied debate over a variety of topics, and some of that debate ranges over territory that mainstream conversation often misses. The School of Oriental and African Studies (SOAS), a prestigious higher learning institution in the centre of London, would appear to have a defender of free and open discussion in head Colin Bundy.

In the last month, the Director & Principal has openly defended the right of an apologist for the Uzbekistan regime, Shirin Akiner, to speak at SOAS, rejecting calls for reconsideration by former British ambassador the dictatorship, Craig Murray. He previously overturned a ban imposed by the Student Union on the attendance of Israeli embassy counsellor Roey Gilad: the students have an anti-racist policy, and consider Zionism to be in practise a form of racism.

Bundy has expounded an heroic Voltairean dedication to free speech in defence of these actions. Yet, one glaring exception renders the rule absurd: the treatment of a student named Nasser Amin, a 23 year old postgrad student.

Amin had written an article in a SOAS student magazine arguing that Palestinians had the right to use force against Israel’s occupation. Instantly, this issue was used alongside a clutch of others by some right-wingers and pro-Zionist students who insisted that SOAS was guilty of anti-Semitism.

The broadsheets in the UK were joined in coverage of this claim by American far right website FrontPage magazine and Campus Watch, the former run by David Horowitz and the latter by Daniel Pipes, an anti-Muslim bigot. Gavin Gross, the SOAS student who had been most involved in pressing these claims, was given a glowing interview by FrontPage in which he dragged Amin’s name through the mud. David Winnick MP raised the possibility in parliament that Amin should be charged with incitement to racial hatred. Finally, Bundy succumbed to the pressure and issued Amin with a formal reprimand, without even informing him of it or why he was being reprimanded.

Professors Richard Falk and Ted Honderich have referred in the past to a right to violence – Honderich has gone further, suggesting that on the basis of present realities, the Palestinians are entitled to their terror. Professor Michael Neumann uses similar arguments to Amin. These are public intellectuals, and so are in some position to defend themselves. Amin, by contrast, is a student. He is almost entirely defenceless. As a Muslim, he belongs to a community that is subject to calumny and extraordinary scrutiny of its every word and gesture. His academic freedom was sacrificed to the exigencies of an urgent political struggle by defenders of Israel to curtail the scope of anti-Zionism on campus.

Some staff at SOAS spoke out on Amin’s behalf, including his tutor Dr Mark Laffey, who said “It is part of the job description of an academic institution that you are willing to give offence. Our job is to seek out the truth, no matter how uncomfortable or unpleasant for various groups or interests.”

Another member of staff, John Game, circulated an open letter condemning Bundy for giving in to such pressure. The Islamic Human Rights Commission said a word or two on Amin’s behalf, demanding that Bundy explain why the reprimand was issued without Amin being given the chance to defend himself, and also demanding that the reprimand be retracted.

Yet, Bundy’s impressive dedication to free expression continues to elude him on this issue. Answer came there none, and Amin still has an official reprimand to remind him of just what commonplace argument he may not articulate in mixed company. He also has an MP who’d like to see him face jail for up to seven years. And he has American rightists accusing him of “Jew-hatred” for the benefit of audiences whom he may never address.

Amin, for his part, feels that the article was “selectively misquoted” by the media and that he has been misused for political purposes. Further, just when he hoped the college would defend him from “Islamophobia, bullying, racism, harassment and slander”, they instead acceded to the bullying, slapped him down and made him a scapegoat on their website.

This is not an isolated story. Campus Watch has been behind the hounding of a number of pro-Palestinian academics in the United States, including Professors Joel Beinin and Rashid Khalidi. The website has a page inviting students to tell on teachers who are insufficiently supportive of Israel. It attacked a professor named Joseph Massad who was falsely accused of bullying pro-Israeli students.

In part, this is happening because the issues surrounding Israel-Palestine are becoming more urgent, while at the same time a decades-long pro-Israel consensus is eroding. There is also a vast gulf between what is academically known about the Israel-Palestine conflict and the picture generally presented in the media. This has produced a climate in which pro-Zionists and right-wingers feel compelled to try and rein in academic discourse.

The treatment of Nasser Amin is a small introduction to that trend, one which began in America and is gathering pace in the UK. So the story is, if you like, about all students and their right to argue points of view that are controversial in mainstream discourse.

I have only just stumbled across this website and I am amazed (but sadly not surprised) at some of the comments posted.

If anyone has any questions on who I am, I am pleased to inform this forum that I have stood for Parliament for the Party twice (2001/2005), I am currently a District Councillor (formerly also a parish councillor) and I have worked for Norman Baker, Charles Kennedy and Lord Alex Carlile in Parliament over the past 6 years or so.

If people on this site think that Jenny Tonge’s comments are not anti-semitic by evoking the classic Jewish conspiracy theory of financial world domination then we really do have a problem in the Party. Before someone writes back and says “she was talking about the pro-Israeli lobby NOT the Jewish lobby – two very different things, with two very different connotations”, I would draw your attention to the recent Report of the All-Party Parliamentary Inquiry Into Antisemitism where it states:

“We conclude that ethnically and religiously motivated hatred, violence and prejudice, wherever they occur, should earn unconditional condemnation; sympathy and support for the victims should not be conditional on their alleged behaviour or political convictions. It is increasingly the case that, because anger over Israel’s policies can provide the pretext, condemnation is often too slow and increasingly conditional. Regardless of the expressed motive, Jewish people and Jewish institutions are being targeted.

Recommendations:

Antisemitic Discourse

10. We conclude that ethnically and religiously motivated hatred, violence and prejudice, wherever they occur, should earn unconditional condemnation; sympathy and support for
the victims should not be conditional on their alleged behaviour or political convictions.

It is increasingly the case that, because anger over Israel’s policies can provide the pretext, condemnation is often too slow and increasingly conditional. Regardless of the expressed motive, Jewish people and Jewish institutions are being targeted.”

If you wish to question this please see Chris Hunhe MP who was the Lib Dem MP who assiste to write this piece.

Tony Greaves makes wild allegation and I would be delighted if he would provide me with details of former ‘goings on’, to make such comments and not provide details is hardly a substantiated stand point Tony!

Please do not question the fact (a) that I am part of the mainstream of this Party, (b) that a report published in Parliament suggests that the sorts of comments made by Tonge ARE anti-semitic and (c) that Ming Campbell’s record on these matters would be affected by the Lib Dem Friends of Israel when his office was formerly funded (in part) by The Council for the. Advancement of Arab-British Understanding (CABBU).

If anyone wishes to take any of the above issues up with me please feel free to email me on [email protected].

GS

Gavin Stollar’s views remind me of those jumped up trots in student politics who would bang on endlessly about ‘defining their own oppression’ and ‘I’m more oppressed than you’ etc.

What Jenny Tonge said can by no stretch of the imagination can be called racist, and anyone who knows her knows she is no racist.

The idea that any comment mentioning financial interests or lobbying on behalf of Israel is playing to BNP/racist stereotypes of Jewish people is ludicrous and dangerously counter productive. The fact that there is this concerted witchhunt against her makes it more likely people will believe there is some Jewish/Zionist conspiracy at work.

Politics is a rough game and people say and do things in the heat of debate that on sober reflection they probably wish they had done differently – it’s part of the democratic process.

Instead of organising a false witchunt against Jenny Tonge – I’d recomend Gavin Stoller does two things – one he could take some advice from Chris Davies and start to beat the BNP in his own backyard of Epping and secondly he could work with his other friends of Israel to put some pressure (financial or otherwise) on that government to stop acting illegally immorally and counter productively and seek a peaceful solution to the Palestinian problem – and that means dealing with their democratically elected representatives – just like the UK governemnt did in northern Ireland.

Out of interest Jenny has issued this statement…

I will not be silenced
from
http://www.iwitness.co.uk/uk/1006u-01.htm

BARONESS Jenny Tonge insists she will continue to speak out for rights
of the Palestinian people despite Israeli groups accusing her of anti
Semitism.

A number of Israeli groups including the Board of British Jews and the
Jewish Leadership Council have objected to comments made by the former
Richmond Park MP at a meeting hosted by the Palestinian Solidarity
Campaign. She is alleged to have said: “The pro Israeli lobby has got
its grips on the Western world, its financial grips. I think they have
probably got a certain grip on our party.” She is also accused of
repeating her support for suicide bombings.

Gavin Stollar, spokesman for the Liberal Democrat Friends of Israel
said: “Jenny Tonge’s original support for suicide bombers in Israel got
her sacked from the front bench. I think her vulgar repetition and
rhetoric means that her position in the party needs to be seriously
reviewed.”

However speaking to the iWitness Mss Tonge reveals pressure from pro
Israeli groups will not silence her.

She said: “At the meeting we were discussing why Israel gets away with
flouting international law? The Israeli action in Lebanon was illegal,
as is the collective punishment being handed out to the people in Gaza
and the continued occupation of Palestine. The reason they get away with
it is because if anyone speaks out they get accused of anti Semitism and
no one wants to be associated with that tag.

“It is not anti Semetic to criticise the Israeli government as it is not
anti American to criticise George W Bush or anti Muslim to speak out
against Islamic extremists. I know of many Jewish people from groups
such as One Voice and Jews for Justice for Palestinians who are appalled
at what the Israeli Government has done in the past and what it
continues to do. It is our duty to raise the profile of such groups.”

Ms Tonge joined the Lib Dems in 1959 and was elected as an MP in 1997
and re elected in 2001 with a majority of 4,964. However in January
2004 she was asked to step down from front bench politics after stating
he understood what drove some Palestinians to turn into suicide bombers.

Speaking to the iWitness she continued: “I have never supported suicide
bombings or any other kind of violence whether it be from groups or
Governments. What I said was that if I was a Palestinian who had to
endure decades of humiliation, starvation, brutality then I might
consider becoming one. I am trying to understand what drives people to
strap bombs onto themselves. The reality is that anyone who tries to
speak out for the Palestinians will be accused of being anti Semitic and
as a result some people have given into the pressure. I can assure
everyone that I for one will continue to speak out against the brutality
shown by the Israeli government.”

Dan – I am an active member of “Redbridge and Epping Forest Together” and if you think that I am not doing enough to combat fascism then perhaps the extract below (taken from http://www.stopthebnp.org.uk) might convince you (but probably not):

“The BNP is still smarting over a Standards Board ruling in June that it was acceptable to call the BNP “nazi”. Cllr Terry Farr had complained when Gavin Stollar, a Liberal Democrat councillor, said, “We don’t want nazis in our town”. Rejecting his complaint the Standards Board said that Stollar “expressed his views on a rival political party within the normal and acceptable limits of political debate”.

Stollar, who was a general election candidate for Brentwood and Ongar, had made the comment after the BNP held a conference in Brentwood in January. It was not directed at any individual BNP member.

Gareth – engage in the debate my friend, don’t simply discredit what I say without dealing without challenging the issues I raise, interesting that you choose not to challenge my take on matters though.

As for Chris Davies – if you think it is ok to call for a constituent to “wallow in their own filth” (you can check with him that he said that!!!) after questioning his views on the Middle East then you are about as credible as he is.

All these people seeking to defend our ‘friends’ Jenny and Chris fail to recognise on every single occasion (without exception) OUR PARTY has made a stand against them. If you disagree with Charles’ sacking of Tonge originally – RESIGN, if you disagree with the Chris Davies’ sacking – RESIGN, if you disagree with Ming’s recent public slap down of Tonge – RESIGN.

Your Party cannot be getting such things so very wrong all the time, can it? And if they are then what are you still doing here? I’m absolutely sure that George Galloway’s mob would be delighted to receive you. You can be sure Jenny and Chris would not be told off for saying what they have done with George at the helm.

The bottom line here is I am proud to be a Lib Dem and Charles Kennedy, Tom McNally, Navnit Dholakia, Ming Campbell are/were the leaders of our Party and I trust their judgment, if you don’t, perhaps YOU are in the wrong Party.

I rest my case…

Also before I go, interesting that we have not heard back from the Lord Greaves. He makes wild allegations and then retreats without trace.

Tony, I say again, do drop me a line with your evidence of Jewish money controlling the Liberal Party, I would be most interested to hear what you have to say.

It’s easy, you can email – [email protected]

Gavin Stollar said…

‘All these people seeking to defend our ‘friends’ Jenny and Chris fail to recognise on every single occasion (without exception) OUR PARTY has made a stand against them. If you disagree with Charles’ sacking of Tonge originally – RESIGN, if you disagree with the Chris Davies’ sacking – RESIGN, if you disagree with Ming’s recent public slap down of Tonge – RESIGN’

Hmmm – so if you disagree with me get out of my party. How very mature and Liberal.

You may not like people disagreeing with you Gavin – but it’s called a debate and we are a democratic party that tolerates a variety of views. You may not agree with them, but tough. I don’t agree with your views, but I’ll defend your right to express them – at least do your opponents that courtesy and end this stupid and illiberal witch hunt.

Gareth,

You appear to feel that if you patronise Mr Stollar your argument will somehow gain more credance. As I said when I first posted, I am critical of Israel where I feel it is justified but find your logic on discrediting Mr Stollar’s position somewhat flawed. He has outlined why he feels Tonge should go in three or four postings above – did you miss that?

This has guy clearly been fighting the BNP in Epping and even gone as far as to put his head above the parapet to say so ref: the article he quotes. Just because his views do not meet yours you seem to feel patronising will somehow win you more friends.

I say again, I fear the majority would align themselves with Mr Stollar and not you Gareth. Jenny Tonge has form and for all the many reasons stated above, she should go.

GB

Gary Bellamy – you are Gavin Stollar and I claim my five pounds!

I have come late to this discussion, but am finding it difficult to comprehend that some of the posters here really are Liberal Democrats.

I grew up in a part of Loindon that has a large Jewish population. I had many Jewish school friends, joined in with festivals and other parts of their religion. I have the greatest of respect for Judaism as a faith and for its members. I would find it very hard to be described as anti-semitic.

However I cannot see what the problem is with Jenny’s comments. Her opponents seem to be using the worst of student union politics and Ming seems to have fallen for it. Saying that anyone who is against much of what the State of Israel is doing is anti-Jewish and therefore racist is simply the worst sort of Trot-style knee jerking.

Jenny did not say that she supported suicide bombers. She said that she could understand why they did what they did in the position that they are in. As a mother, I can understand why the father of Holly Wells wants to kill Ian Huntley. If it had been my daughter, I may have felt the same. But it doesn’t make it right.

I don’t think many of us have all the information needed to totally prove or disprove the comments that Jenny made at conference. But as far as I am concerned, they are not out of keeping with party policy or the preamble to the constitution. Jenny is a liberal in the best traditions and a fair-minded, compassionate and intelligent member of the party of many years standing. Just the sort of person that apparently GS and friends would like to send to Respect. If she is forced out, there will be many of us forced to consider our own positions.

I agree that some of the contributions above have been unhelpful but it is good to see healthy debate on an issue as important as the Middle East getting a bit of an airing (something I would encourage).

The only point I would like to add to the forum is that although the Party has made a statement against Jenny Tonge’s comments the wider issue here is how the Party is perceived on the Middle East in general. Where I have a problem is that we are always condemning Israel for this that and the other but we never seem to be commending for anything. I know for instance that phone calls were made by the IDF (a first in warfare I believe) to the blocks of houses where the Hizbollah were hiding to advise residents to get out due to imminent bombings – not reported in the press.

I do not believe that Israel purposely targets civilians and if we were faced by hostile neighbours from all sides how would we react? I think that Israel is scared and as very young country feels threatened when all its neighbours want to push it into the sea. I agree that many of its actions appear to be overreactions etc but I can seldom recall any Lib Dem commending Israel for any action it takes. Balance I guess is my issue and I think when people in the Party like Gavin and others see the Party displaying more balance in our public pronouncements perhaps our credibility on the issue will be raised a few notches.

All interesting reading although the only person I take issue with is Colin W – no need to swear and be discourteous. Gavin is entitled to his view as much as the rest of us and it is quite intriguing to see that our party has a pro-Israeli point of view, something I commend.

Matt