Nicol Stephen has given an interview to the Scotsman, which you can read for now online (I think their stuff gets moved behind a subscription firewall pretty fast)
In an interview with The Scotsman, Mr Stephen was asked: “Are there any circumstances under which you would accept a referendum as part of a coalition with the SNP?”
He replied: “In 1997, the Liberal Democrats saw no need for a referendum before establishing a Scottish Parliament, which we strongly supported, so why in 2007 would we support a referendum to establish a separate Scottish state, which we strongly oppose? The Liberal Democrats will not support any back-door routes to independence after a Scottish election where the parties who support separation have no majority.”
He was then asked: “If the parties supporting independence get a majority of seats or votes, that’s a mandate for having a referendum, but if they don’t get that, there is no mandate?”
He replied: “Correct.”
Asked to clarify: “So, in any negotiations that will be your line, no referendum?”
He replied: “That’s right.”
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46 Comments
As a Scot now living in Solihull who has voted repeatedly for the Liberal Democrats who gained this seat by a tiny majority at the last general election I can tell you that my vote has now been lost to your candidate at the next general election.
It is profoundly undemocratic in circumstances where opinion poll after opinion poll indicates that 80% of the Scottish electorate (whether for or against independence) favour an independence referendum for the Liberal Democrats to oppose this.
The Liberal Democrats were 4th in Scotland at the last Holyrood election. They do not deserve to make progress at the next. This approach is a denial of the principles of the party which I have voted for throughout the 25 years I have lived in England-but no longer.
Completely agree Tom,our local MSP is an excellent representative but will probably now loose his seat because of Mr Stephens undemocratic stance and his determination to foist a mileage charge on us no matter what Westminster decides,back to the polital wasteland lib/dems and don’t come back until somebody has explained ,”rule off the people,by the people,for the people” to you and your opinionated “leader”
Im a Scot living in West Berkshire, I normally vote LibDem as does my wife. In view of the apparent undemoctaric stance by LibDem leader in Scotland Nicol Stephen, we will ceratinly NOT be supporting the Libdems here either and will urge all our freinds to not vote LibDem. This will not change until the Scottish LibDems wake up and realise they have to represent the people and not dictate to the people
Nicol Stephen has left the LibDems in Scotland in a precarious position. Voters might as well vote Labour if they do not fancy full independence. Would he not have been in a better bargaining position if he had supported a referendum, with the condition that it should have 3 choices i.e. Status Quo;Full Independence; Federal Solution or increased powers for the existing Parlie?
The death knell for the Libdems in Scotland more like? This a stupid move by them and it will not be forgotten.
Coming as I do from a West Coast radical tradition I share your other contributors distaste for this negative approach to the democratic principle that the people are the arbiters of how our country should be governed.Sovereignty remains with the people and I can see no reason why a referendum should be denied to them. Are the LibDems afraid of the result? Or have they become too comfortable as the junior partners of the present Executive?
I used to think the Lib Dems were liberal and democratic – now I see Nicol Stephen is another jumped up wee dictator. As for Sir Ming slagging off Alex Salmond, talk about the pot calling the kettle black. The will of the Scottish people is what they should be acting upon, not their own power trip agenda. They’ve just lost my vote and that of my husband.
I’ve posted this on the other discussion, but I’ll post it here too.
Or it could just be a very clever plan to make sure that the SNP concentrate their election campaign on getting a referendum at the expense of everything else. I would imagine that the majority of people who would not vote Lib/Dem because of the refusal to have a referendum on independence don’t vote Lib/Dem anyway. Even if a majority of people do want a referendum, I suspect it’s fairly low down on their list of priorities for Government. If the SNP (and their activists like McTosh) concentrate on this and nothing else because they’re really wound up, they’ll lose.
Left-leaning Londoner
And how do arrive at that conclusion?
Hello, I’m a 19 year old university student. I was going to give my first ever vote to the Liberal Democrats. However, upon seeing their execution of leader Charles Kennedy and their clearly undemocratic stance of an independence referendum I have decided to switch my vote to the SNP. Both parties offer almost identical deals to students, so my choice comes down to my own libertarian ideology. I cannot support a party that clearly goes against the voice of the people and the liberty upon which all states should be founded.
Colin, Charles Kennedy was forced to resign over a year ago. As you’ve been that badly affected by it, why haven’t you changed your mind before now? What do you think a party led by a man with a drinking problem should have done? Indeed, they gave him long enough, plenty of chances to get help. He wouldn’t take them. If they can be criticised for anything it’s not acting quickly enough.
McTosh, I’ve yet to see an opinion poll where clearly more than 50% wanted independence. Of those, how many will actually consider independence the main factor in determining their vote. I’d suspect about half again? So around 25% of the electorate will be particularly appalled by Nicol Stephen’s statement (that he wouldn’t support a referendum unless the pro-independence parties win a majority, ie SNP, Greens, SSP, Solidarity?). Those 25% prob don’t vote Lib Dem anyway – majority of those will be SNP’s core vote.
Colin again; if the “voice of the people” is shown by the election of a majority for pro-independence parties (SNP, Greens, SSP), Stephen Nicol has indicated he’d support a referendum.
If pro-unionist parties win a majority, I think there’s a certain amount of a point saying let’s not bother with a referendum yet.
Left-leaning Londoner
As I’ve stated before in another forum on this website, since devolution polls have indicated consistently 75/80% of the Scottish electorate want a referendum on the question of independence.
What do you not understand?
This is irrefutable, just look at the Libdems on here who want one and will withdraw their support because of this misguided policy of not agreeing to one?
What do you not understand McTosh? I was talking about people who actually want independence not those who want a referendum. I suspect there aren’t many who would withdraw their support, because of the refusal to support a referendum unless pro-independence parties win a majority, that don’t already support full independence. If they already support full independence and it’s a huge priority for them, they are unlikely to vote Lib/Dem.
That’s not to say that there aren’t Lib/Dems who support independence, I just think if it was their be all and end all of voting priorities, they wouldn’t support the Lib/Dems. They’d vote SNP.
Left-leaning Londoner
Are you being deliberately obtuse or what?
75/80% of the Scots electorate want a referendum irrespective of whether they’re pro or anti independence……so why are they being denied one or at least the opportunity to have one??
Left Leaning Londoner says “I’ve yet to see an opinion poll where clearly more than 50% wanted independence” – irrelevant. The important point is not how many say they would definitely vote for independence in a referendum, but the percentage who say that they WANT a referendum on independence, regardless of how they would vote in such a referendum. THAT percentage is 80 percent. Faced with _that_ figure, there is no excuse for denying a referendum. It puts the LibDems in the position of being neither liberal nor democratic.
Mctosh writes: “75/80% of the Scots electorate want a referendum irrespective of whether they’re pro or anti independence……so why are they being denied one or at least the opportunity to have one??”
Elementary. Because a win for a “Yes” vote would be quite plausible. The leading elites of all three main British parties are opposed to changing the status quo for the very obvious reason that they are doing very nicely thank you from the present situation.
So they oppose the idea of independence, not as a matter of principle, simply from sheer egotistic selfishness.
They’re all right, Jack.
And they couldn’t give a toss what the Scottish people might want.
Liberals?
Democrats?
Aye.
Right.
See you in May!
When will politicians and parties publish what bits of their promises are going to be negotiable after the election?
I think we have a right to know. As it stands the LibDems say an independence referendum is non negotiable,but on the other hand (the LibDems are ambidextrous)is this the truth and not the truth they would have us believe?
What’s the point of the Scottish Lib Dems? They’re a failure and a joke in England and Wales but they are fundamentally dishonest, opportunistic, illiberal and undemocratic in Scotland. The only alternative to the Labour/Lib Dem administration is the SNP or Scottish Conservatives.
Gosh! The SNP has spent the whole day bombarding Lib Dem Voice! Have these Balkanist zealots nothing better to do with their time?
Dave Coull says: “The important point is not how many say they would definitely vote for independence in a referendum, but the percentage who say that they WANT a referendum on independence, regardless of how they would vote in such a referendum. THAT percentage is 80 percent. Faced with _that_ figure, there is no excuse for denying a referendum.”
Really??!!
I thought that in a democracy decisions are made by representatives elected through the ballot-box, not by opinion polls.
Opinion polls have shown consistently a huge majority of people throughout the UK favouring the return of capital punishment. Does that mean we have to bring back hanging?
There is no consitutional justification for a referendum on independence unless the pro-Balkanisation parties win a majority of seats in the Scottish Parliament. The fact that there is public support for a particular course of action in no way means it is the right thing to do, or that the state is compelled to carry it out.
One of our Balkanist friends calls himself a “libertarian”. Sorry, nationalism and liberty are incompatible. Nationalism imposes an identity on the individual, whatever he or she feels himself to be, whether he or she likes it or not. Those who refuse to adopt that identity become second-class citizens. They are “self-hating Jews”, “bad Germans”, “apostates”, “Castle Catholics”, etc.
Is that the kind of thing libertarians in Scotland really want?
I’ve posted before, but will post again here. Specifically for 16, 17 and 18
Please note, I’m not necessarily justifying the position, I’m just trying to explain a reason for it and why the SNP might fall into the trap.
There will be a minority of people who will now not vote Lib/Dem because of the referendum issue.
However, think of the example of the EU. Opinion polls tell us that the vast majority of people want out of the EU. If we were to have a referendum, we’d end up out of it, but neither the majority of Lab/Libs nor a minority of Cons want that.
Hasn’t stopped people voting for Lab/Lib in general elections though.
This is because the EU, no matter what people feel about it, isn’t the main priority for people when it comes to their votes. Perhaps this isn’t true in the case of a Scottish referendum, but I don’t imagine it’s really that high a priority for most people when it comes to their vote for the Scottish parl. And the ones which it is of huge importance for, will already want independence definitely and will make up a much smaller group than the apparent 80% who want a referendum, perhaps only 20-30% who are the people who naturally vote SNP.
Therefore, this position, which is in line with the Lib/Dems’ unionist credentials encourages the SNP and their supporters to get wound up about not being able to have a referendum – because a party that doesn’t agree with independence won’t prop them up on it.
Go on, bang on about referendums, see whether it enables the SNP to get a majority in the parl, or see if it ends up that you don’t get that majority because all other policy areas were neglected. Then you’ll have to compromise with other parties from a position of weakness, enabling the Lib/Dems to make good more of their manifesto commitments – which at the end of the day is what all political parties are there for.
Iparralderen Kidea the illiberal halfwit?
mctosh45.
Why are you not out in the pubs and clubs of Glasgow and Edinburgh persuading your fellow countrymen of the wonders of a gloriously independent Scotland?
Have you nothing better to do with your time than wind up Lib Dems?
Zealots of all stripes imagine that those who do not share their belief systems do so for base and contemptible motives.
I have news for you, mctosh45. Some of us believe the union to be a thoroughly good thing, and will fight like tigers to preserve it.
Don’t think you can conceal the weakness of your case with abuse and bluster. Won’t work.
This Liberal Democrat Voice site has a poll running on the question “Should you be required to provide your real name in order to post comments on Lib Dem Voice?”
Of course I have voted yes. I think everybody SHOULD have to give their real name.
The shy wee boy who goes under the false name Iparralderen Kidea says “The SNP has spent the whole day bombarding Lib Dem Voice!” – that’s an exaggeration. There have been a couple of not-particularly-effective posts from SNP members, but some of the most interesting posts advocating a referendum on independence have come from folk with no connection to the SNP. In my case, this is easily proved, because, unlike that shrinking violet who goes under the pseudo name Iparralderen Kidea, I’m a real person.
Dave Coull, perhaps you will make the same point to your very dear friend, mctosh45.
Iparralderen Kidea claims that he and others of his stripe will “fight like tigers”.
He forgot to add that he will fight like a tiger while hiding behind the camouflage of a false name.
The policy of refusing a self-determination referendum, supported by this shy tiger, is neither liberal nor democratic.
Iparralderen Kidea says: “Dave Coull, perhaps you will make the same point to your very dear friend, mctosh45.”
Certainly. Although he is NOT “my very dear friend”. I have never come across anybody using that pseudonym until today, here on this site. But I have no hesitation in saying the same thing to EVERYBODY who uses a false identity. Stop hiding behind the pseudonyms.
I was astonished to see that Iparralderen Kidea claims that he and others of his stripe will “fight like tigers”.to preserve the union.
I suppose that includes adopting an undemocratic tatic and deny people a means to express their opinion.
“I dispute what you say but will fight to the death to allow you the right to say it” I forget who said that but they must have been both Liberal and Democratic unlike most of the leaders of the party hosting this web site.
I see the Libdems are up to their malignant best………http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/politics.cfm?id=263982007
David Mogg. This isn’t hosted by the party. It’s independent of it.
I’d just like to echo what Left-leaning Londoner said in comment 31. All are welcome here, nearly all views are welcome here – with the exception of things like racism. I am concerned at the racial undertones of post 21, and I have to say to the poster of that comment – I’m keeping an eye on you!
To David Mogg, this is an independent website in which individuals can express their personal views – they’re not speaking for the party. It is both liberal and democratic to have a public discussion.
While I’m disappointed that some people came over here from the Scotsman website following an invitation to “Have a pop at them on their website…………”, I have to say that most of the people who have dropped in have been polite, and are welcome to drop by again!
Rob Fenwick (of Lib Dem Voice)
Rob Fenwick
I applaud your sentiments but people from the Scotsman website have a perfect right to take issue with Liberal Democrat policy when it effects Scotland.
I admit, I have been a bit intemperate in my postings but only under the face of provocation and intransigence by one member in particular.
Rob Fenwick of Lib Dem Voice says “I’m disappointed that some people came over here from the Scotsman website” – why be disappointed, Rob? “following an invitation to ‘Have a pop at them on their website…………'” – don’t make the mistake of thinking that everybody who arrived from the Scotsman website came with the same motives. Some members of rival political parties may have just wanted to “have a pop at them”, but MY motive is to seek to convince people that ruling out a referendum is neither liberal nor democratic. “I have to say that most of the people who have dropped in have been polite” – personally, I seek to be polite with those who are polite towards me. If they are NOT polite (one particular alleged LibDem, who must surely be an embarrassment to the party if he really is a member, springs to mind) well then that might be a different matter.
I only once voted Liberal Democrat, that was when I lived in Axminster, in East Devon. I remember once going to the Conservative Club in Axminster, with a work colleague who was a member, and the guy on the door said “Dave Coull, you can’t come in here! You’re a LIBERAL!” I assured him I was not in any party, and anyway we only wanted in because we had a bet about which of us was the better snooker player, and the Con Club was the only place in town with snooker tables! Anyway, in May I might vote for the Green Party, or I might vote SNP, or I might not vote at all. I can’t speak for anybody else, only as an individual, so here is how I came to post here.
The Scotsman printed an article about Nicoll Stephen “sounding a death knell for independence referendum”. As a reader of the Scotsman, and as somebody registered on their website, of course I took part in the discussion about this on their forum. On that forum, somebody mentioned the discussion on THIS forum. So of course I took a look. And of course I became involved in the discussion.
A wee bit of background history :- In September 2004, during the course of a discussion on an internet forum, I proposed the formation of a single-issue, non-party-political, campaign for a referendum on independence for Scotland. A few people were interested. In February 2005, I organised the first meeting of this campaign, which was held in Brechin, about four miles from where I now live. Twelve internet contacts showed up for that meeting, from as far apart as Aberdeenshire and Glasgow.
Of these twelve people, I think two were members of the SNP, although fairly inactive members. Two were members of the Scottish Socialist Party, but we all know the troubles that party has had, and both have since then resigned from the SSP. The majority of folk at that inaugural meeting were, like myself, not members of any political party. We took the name “Independence First”. The reason for this name was that, at the time, there was much talk about UKIP and other anti-European groupings, more so in England though, and we wanted to emphasise that a referendum on independence had to have priority. Other questions such as relations with the EU, or the constitutional status of the monarchy, could wait.
I am here as part of my continuing campaign to convince people that holding a referendum on independence is the democratic thing to do.
Dave, I’m not disappointed that people came from the Scotsman website – that statement only looks true if, as you did, you split my sentence in two! I think it’s clear that the whole gist of my message is to say that visitors are welcome here.
I’m disappointed that some people may have come over to ‘have a pop’. I say that because we have one or two people from other parties who spend a lot of time here ‘having a pop’, and I don’t want to encourage trolling.
I think we’re actually in complete agreement, and you may have misunderstood my previous comment.
Rob Fenwick. Just what are the “racial undertones” in Post 21?
Your comment is defamatory, and I respectfully ask you to withdraw it.
I’m not sure it’s possible to defame a pseudonym.
Mr Fenwick, you can defame any person (natural or legal) who is capable of being identified.
You have just defamed me through your publication of the false innuendo that I am a racist.
What possible defence do you have?
If you look at the post in question, you will see that I discuss the often uncomfortable relationship between national and individual identity. How does that make me a racist?
You do realise that if I issued proceedings you would have no defence whatsoever and would face ruin. Not that I have any intention of going down that route, but I could do if I so wished.
On a forum of this kind one does have to put up with a certain level of abuse and insults, but I will not tolerate downright deliberate lies which have the capacity to affect my ability to earn a living.
By the way, Mr Fenwick. If, as you claim, I am a racist, why did I defy an instruction at work to invite “English people only” to interviews?
Iparralderen Kidea
Your comparing Scottish CIVIC Nationalism with fascism and accusing Scottish Nationalism with imposing second class citizenship on our ethnic minorities?
If anyone needs sued, it’s you pal?
mctosh45. Is “Scottish Nationalism” a natural or legal person? Read the case law. One of the leading cases is a Scottish case, Brown v DC Thomson – are you familiar with it?
I have family members who are Scottish nationalists (with big and small “N”), and I know exactly how they think.
Scottish nationalism has always incorporated a racial myth and has harboured a belief in genetic superiority.
That is not to say that the SNP itself is racist (it certainly isn’t, at least not overtly), but many of its members and supporters do hold racist beliefs.
mctosh45. I recall Margot MacDonald, back in the 1970s (on the subject of Scottish emigration), complaining that the average IQ in Scotland is now lower than in England. What is this if not an acknowledgement of the widely held belief that the Scots are more intelligent than the English? (None of the present SNP politicians would say anything so stupid.)
An exercise for you. Can you identify the essential characteristics of Scottishness? And how do you feel about those Scots who are missing one or more of said characteristics?
By the way, I have no time whatsoever for English nationalism, which makes me cringe.
Iparralderen Kidea
Get off your high horse what do the English call a Scotsman=Sweaty sock=Jock, an Irishman=Paddy, a Welshman=Taffy.
How are these for national stereotypes Irish = thick
Welsh = drunk
Scottish = Mean tight fisted
All coined by the English who have always thought themselves superior?
My My,
Why is it so important to “IDENTIFY” someone who posts a comment which disagrees with your own?
I like my privacy which is why I WILL NEVER be a politician. However because I want privacy does this mean I can’t voice MY OPINION?
My opinion is this: Nicol is so far off the mark he will damage your party with stupid comments like “we will not allow the Scottish people to decide on their future” Please read what he says and think about it. He didn’t ask permission to make that reply (obviously) so why should you just agree with him?
Are you allowed YOUR OPINION?
Thank you
namenotimportant says “My opinion is this: Nicol is so far off the mark he will damage your party” – not my party. I’m just a guest here. I agree with you that Nicol Stephen’s stance will damage the LibDems. That is clear from contributions to this forum, for instance from Tom Robinson of Solihull, a long-term LibDem supporter who has changed his mind because of Nichol Stephen’s illiberal and undemocratic stance. namenotimportant asks “Why is it so important to “IDENTIFY” someone who posts a comment which disagrees with your own?” – It is a sad fact of life that people are sometimes dishonest, and that people sometimes use the anonymity of the internet to pretend to be what they are not. Personally, I like to know who I am discussing with, even when they are saying something that I AGREE with. “I like my privacy which is why I WILL NEVER be a politician.” – Well, I will never be a politician either. I have never been a member of any political party, I have never tried to get into an official position at any level of government even local, and, since I’m now an old-age-pensioner, I certainly won’t be doing so in the future. It’s up to you if you choose to use a pseudonym, but, personally, I prefer to know who I am talking with.
Well Dave, I trust you will allow me to have anonymity. I promise not to pretend to be ANYONE else but myself. Lets just say my name too is Dave. Will it make any difference?
The internet is also a dangerous place where your name may be taken and used elswhere without your knowledge and out of context so it is best I stay as I am for now.
Thank you for your reply.
One more reason not to vote Libdem.
‘Liberal’ ‘Democrat’Nichol Stephen is finished in Scotland with his recent remarks. He was ably assisted by Jamie Stone with his xenophobe comments.