Women’s voices have been sadly lacking in the EU referendum debate so far. Even the BBC debate on Thursday night had but one female panellist. What’s particularly annoying about that is that Diane James’ comment that she didn’t know if we’d need visas to go to France is being much lampooned and Liam Fox’s that he didn’t really know what would happen to the economy if we left the EU (but he’s willing to give it a go anyway) is being largely ignored.
Anyway, Thursday’s debate was perfectly gender balanced and was conducted with the theme of #disagreewell. This is all about leaving the bluff and bluster at the door and having a grown up conversation. It sounds good, but would the reality reflect that. Well, with a priest and a diplomat making up half the panel, along with our Sal, you would think so. It seems to have been relatively good-humoured.
One point that came up in the Scottish referendum was made here. In Scotland, it was “we might be poor, but at least we’ll be free” and a very similar argument was made by Rev Giles Fraser, arguing for Brexit. I find it incredible that supporters of Leave are happy to take an economic hit which by its nature will impact on the poorest and most vulnerable in all sorts of ways.
Sal was able to neutralise the idea that we’d somehow “get our democracy back” pointing out that our democracy is far from perfect and essentially gave Ann Widdecombe a job for life. Frankly, I’d much rather the EU was there to act as a check on a power-hungry Tory government which is trying to stitch the system in its favour on not much more than a third of the popular vote.
Here’s a flavour of what went on:
The debate moved on to democracy within the EU and Wall suggested it was better for everyone if nations pooled their sovereignty. Fraser countered and said this was not a debate about economics. “I would be happy for us to be poorer if we could have our democracy back. The idea we should trade our democracy for a few percentage points in our economy is lunacy.”
Brinton made the point that our democracy in the UK was not perfect. “The reason Ann [Widdecombe] never lost her seat in the House of Commons is because we don’t have a fair voting system,” she said.
The lively debate continued onto whether there was a moral case for either leave or remain.
“Absolutely not,” said Brinton. “But I use my faith to inform my views.”
On this Widdecombe agreed. “There is no moral superiority on either position. There is not a monopoly of Christian virtue on either side.”
Afterwards Brinton told Christian Today she was inspired by Revelation’s reference to a multitude from every nation, tribe, people and tongue. “As a Christian I want us to be part of that. Wanting to remain in the EU is saying there are benefits of remaining together.”
There is no mention of either economic apocalypse or immigration in the report, so it may be that this debate was more civilised than just about every other news programme for the last 2 months. The problem is that all the major television events/non-debates feature people from whom you are not likely to get thoughtful, inspiring contributions. As in Scotland, the Liberal Democrats are having to fight for air time, just as we did in Scotland. The Remain campaign should realise that the message that we have, that positive celebration of the EU and what it means in terms of peace and prosperity, what it does to make the world a better and fairer place, could be the melody that inspires people out to vote. In an election where turnout is going to be key, and they only need to win by 1 and we’re in a very tricky situation, we need to use all the arguments at our disposal.
* Caron Lindsay is Editor of Liberal Democrat Voice and blogs at Caron's Musings. You can find her on Bluesky at caronmlindsay.bsky.social
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“Sal…..pointing out that our democracy is far from perfect and essentially gave Ann Widdecombe a job for life.”
Our imperfect democracy seems to have worked rather well during Sal’s several failed attempts to get elected,.. before she finally succumbed to electoral rejection,.. and had to be given,.. an unelected job for life, in the Lords?
@J Dunn
But Sal Bringing supports reform that’d get rid of her job for life.
If only Tory MPs in safe seats would do the same
And Lib Dems did try to reform the Lords in the last Parliament and were stopped by an unholy alliance of Tory and Labour.
J Dunn: I made exactly the point that when the Brexiters say that they don’t like the EU democracy that our own democracy isn’t perfect either, which is why I fight for the reform of the House of Lords, and for proportional representation. Had we had PR, last year the Lib Dems would have had around 50 seats, instead of 8, and UKIP even more. I may not like UKIP’s policies, but our democracy uses a voting system that is anything but democratic, alienating electors who feel their votes just don’t count.
Sal
I’m no fan of Ann Widdecome, but what I take issue with is this constant theme that permeates Lib Dem attitude, whereby voter endorsement is seen as a vice not a virtue. Indeed articles like this are ‘pepper-potted’, with subtle signals. Take for example :
“…power-hungry Tory government which is trying to stitch the system in its favour on not much more than a third of the popular vote. ”
That statement works just as well without the word ‘popular’, so why is it in there.? Perhaps because words like popular and populist are an adjunct of sneer. ‘Popular’, shows a not so subtle frustration with a democratic process that unnervingly rejects the self perceived superior, in favour of the assumed inferior bulk view.?
As for the vague notion of the unelected, electing to.. un-elect themselves….?
——- Have this House of Noise ——-
What cold horrors must we bring them
Our populist eyes see not their chart
And our rejection casts no shadow
Across their desire to hold the reins
Though legion we are as lost as dullards
These pilots of fineness must have their way
And so to assuage them into a higher place
Where a voice can be heard with quiet grumble
We shall save them a bench at the table of kings
With fine robes and fine food and fine noise
From where they can lament our foolish ways
As a former Minister Anne Widdecombe has said on TV that she resents the PM not giving her a peerage. She is known to TV and radio listeners as having her own opinions, but in writing a foreword to Geoffrey Archer’s trilogy on imprisonment she said what others have said when inspecting prisons. Maidstone was a target seat, but sadly we have not won it yet.
She did not leave the Church of England to be come a Roman Catholic, it was a two stage process.
I met an ex-Tory female voter in Maidstone who was against women priests in the C of E and nevertheless voted for us.
I think one of the main themes of Christianity is the breaking down of barriers of all kinds, including national ones. Forming alliances with other nations to combat the evils of poverty, excessive inequality, excessive corporate power, oppression and conflict is part of that theme.
This means that we would turn our backs on the EU only if we felt the EU was not seeking these goals.
It’s not reform of the House of Lords that’s needed it’s abolition and replacement. Accepting a seat there is hypocrisy. Fight for abolition from outside.
PR list systems mean voters cannot choose their representatives; that’s for party hierarchies. Hardly democratic. Too often MPs booted by their electorate end up on EU Parliament lists. Neil Hamilton in Wales. Incredible. And voters have thoroughly rejected a transferable vote system via a democratic referendum. So is it fair to have a system of representatives chosen by party elites or a system rejected by a huge margin in a referendum or one where local party members pick the candidates and electorates can get rid of their MPs. If you can overturn the Tatton majority no seat is truly safe for all time – note the wipeout and return of Canadian Conservatives under FPTP. Haven’t we made a habit of winning and keeping until recently seats that should be safe for one of the others. The SNP proves there are no safe seats too.
There is no fair system since every system has unfair elements. It isn’t fair that twice I’ve been part of an electorate that removed truly bad MPs only to see them become immovable MEPs shortly afterwards. One was later dubbed the laziest MEP for having made 2 contributions in 12 years. And we want that for the Commons?
The EU compromises a proportionally elected parliament, a council of elected leaders of the member states, and a Commission / civil service that is appointed by democratic governments and can be sacked by the elected parliament. It is as democratic as it can be but is carefully balanced so as not to undermine national parliaments. More democracy at the EU level = a mandate to challenge national governments and ultimately leads to the integrated Federalism we don’t want.