This is the first Christmas that anyone travelling on our motorways really couldn’t avoid signs measuring distance in – whisper it – kilometers.
Every 500 meters or so along just about every motorway – and some trunk roads – in Britain, one of these blue signs helpfully tells the the stranded, mobile-phone wielding, motorist not only which road and carriageway she’s on but how many kilometers she is along it. Not miles. Not even good old British furlongs or barleycorns (which is a shame). But evil revolutionary French kilometers.
Some EU plot force us to go metric?
No. We might have our litres, kilos and decimal currency. We even have generations growing up knowing how many miles to the gallon their car does without having the faintest idea how much a gallon of petrol actually is, but we’re not being forced to start measuring distance on our roads in kilometers (though I guess we might choose to one day, and I can’t say it would bother me personally too much if we did).
These signs result in help getting to stranded motorists ten percent faster in an age when most calls for assistance are made on mobile phones and, when asked where you are the answer “on a motorway somewhere. Near Nottingham, I think.” isn’t actually massively helpful.
For the last thirty years, our motorways have had posts placed every hundred metres, mainly for maintenance crews. Now the blue signs are helping motorists too.
So as you drive around Britain’s motorway network, keep an eye out for the blue signs (especially on the M26 in Kent, which the Government appears to think is a slip road), ponder the creeping metrication of Britain and perhaps enjoy knowing just how many kilometers you are from the start of the road.
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67 Comments
“but we’re not being forced to start measuring distance on our roads in kilometers (though I guess we might choose to one day, and I can’t say it would bother me personally too much if we did).”
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You would if you had any idea just how much it costs to replace a road sign. Don’t think in £100s; don’t think in £1000s … start thinking in £tens of thousands …. each sign! I can’t see any British Government being in a position to pay for that particular complete waste of money, courtesy of the EUSSR.
It was a lot easier to keep kids quiet in the back of the car when they had to be told to keep a look out for the small white black and red poles. And you could then challenge the particularly annoying precocious ten year olds to do the conversion from km to miles by mental arithmetic on the promise of a Foxes glacier mint (the archetypal glove comparment sweet) if they got the right answer within 2%.
Ooh – “EUSSR” – the people not even asking us to change our signs to kilometers.
I agree that there’s no good reason to do it in the near future, One question though – where do you get your costings from? These new marker signs cost around £375 each to set up and I’d assume if we changed over to kilometers for road signs, we’d just put suitable stickers over the existing numbers – not erect whole new signs!
Iain Roberts. I suggest YOU ask an FoI question of the Highways Agency…. for the FULL costs incurred when replacing an old, large motorway sign; not just the cost of the signface.
HtW: that you saying you don’t know? And why would they replace the signs and not just put stickers over the numbers?
Stickers? Get real. They wont last five minutes. The glue has to endure 100F in old money to minus 32…and stickers still cost umpteen pounds for something that’s not necessary. Manna from above for UKIP and the Daily Express etc.
It often costs £100 to change a light bulb in public buildings, so the cost of this must be astronomical.
No I’m not saying that. You cast doubts, so I’m suggesting you take the trouble to find out for yourself. Signs would almost certainly have to be replaced because it is a legal requirement that when motorway and trunk road directional signs are replaced they have to be brought up to current Safety and Signing Standards. The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directives (on the DfT website) were re-written in 2002 and most motorway signs are older than that.
Grow up. The UK has effectively been metric for decades. Ask you kids and grand kids what they were taught at school!
Every works contract on the motorways you write about has been written in metric terms for many years – ie they are BUILT in kilometres and maintained in kilometres – and thus measured in kilometres for every purpose except the road signs aimed particularly at motorists.
We keep miles and pints for old buffers like me – and to confuse americans, perhaps.
Oh, and forget about the French Revolution. The present international system is just that – international. It is based on the international Metre Convention in the drafting of which the UK played a major part – and the current definition of the metre is based on scientific work done at the UK’s NPL – which, for over a century has been basing our “Imperial” measurement standards on their metric primary standards.
Matt – very true about school. I was taught pretty much 100% metric in the late ’70s and ’80s. As I say, it wouldn’t bother me personally either way, but it would cause many other people problems and I really can’t see the point of making the formal change.
Philip/David/HtW: Although I agree completely that we shouldn’t change to metric for road signs, I’m struggling to understand the argument from cost. Road signs are frequently amended with stickers (actually metal plates stuck over part of the sign with suitable adhesive) so it clearly works and clearly wouldn’t cost thousands of pounds per sign. But, to repeat, I don’t think it should be done and don’t see any benefit in doing it.
I don’t think anyone can argue that keeping our roadsigns in miles is a good idea (1760 yards to a mile is the most retarded thing i’ve ever heard having grown up using metric), it’s just that the cost of switching over is something we can’t afford at the moment.
If it were up to me we’d drive on the right like everyone else in the world if it wouldn’t be such a massive hassle to switch over!
@Philip Young – They use those super-adhesive stickers on motorway signs all the time! They could just be used until the signs themselves come up to be replaced, and changed into miles on the replacement ones.
Delivering this “maybe there’s a problem; you go and prove that there isn’t” trolling, while carefully avoiding the admission of complete ignorance, does indicate quite strongly that the whole thing is just a tabloid-style fantasy. The intention is to waste people’s time and effort on chasing down and disproving the rumour (which nobody will care about). It’s probably the same guy who’s been doing this here for months on a series of pseudonyms.
Best to just ignore him.
The OS has given land heights in metres for some years. A little bit irritating, but not the end of the world. The rationale behind decimalisation was to make calculations easier for ordinary people, which it did. At the time, the backwoods element said it was a ruse to rip us off, an unwelcome foreign import, and an insult to our glorious, deferential past. In reality, it was just a better system. The same considerations do not apply to miles, which don’t have to be subdivided, and have only syllable which media types can only stress in one place.
This is similar to the “EU myth rebuttal” on bendy cucumbers which misses the point as to why such things exist rather than “it’s not the fault of the EU you know….”
Look at the “mile post” alongside. It has exactly the same information (possibly more as IIRC on motorways they have arrows pointing towards the nearest phone). So why do we have the time and expense of erecting a sign saying the same. And if the information is useful then why not make it clear what it is referring to – I never knew what these signs were!
“Signs would almost certainly have to be replaced because it is a legal requirement that when motorway and trunk road directional signs are replaced they have to be brought up to current Safety and Signing Standards. The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directives (on the DfT website) were re-written in 2002 and most motorway signs are older than that.”
They may have been amended since but those regulations use example signs labelled in miles eg
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/SI/si2002/023113cj.gif
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/SI/si2002/023113ck.gif
It would be very odd therefore if the regulations required signage to be in metres.
Maybe you can cite the subsequent amending legislation?
“Although I agree completely that we shouldn’t change to metric for road signs, I’m struggling to understand the argument from cost.”
——————————
The costs associated with replacing a directional sign on the motorway/trunk road network generally include:
Surveys – probably more than one. You cannot always just replace like for like and it may be advisable to relocate the sign
Environmental surveys by an Environmental Specialist – a legal requirement if it isn’t simply a case of just changing the signface – in order to protect certain species
Services inspections (checking for pipes, cables, etc which might be underground.
Sign Design/drawings. Requires specialist knowledge.
Procurement of signface and new posts etc
Installation – generally takes 3 nights. Prepare the site; install base and posts; install signface
Traffic Management – placed and removed each night
Possible continuity signing … change one sign and you generally have to change others for consistency
Post installation inspections
All associated administration
It is possible to plate some signs to change one item of information. More than that and the original signface cannot carry the additional weight. If you change all the distances on a large sign with say 4 destinations, you would have to change the signface; probably the posts and the above list kicks in.
I hope this helps your understanding. The figures I gave earlier are realistic.
HtW I call foul on your numbers. Thousands per sign would already be nonsense, but tens of thousands per sign suggests that your method for obtaining your figures is highly flawed.
The DfT published it’s own figures in 2006 which estimated 680-760 million pounds for half a million signs (or around £1400 per sign). Their estimate assumed it would all be done in a single year and included things such dealing with traffic flow management while signs were being changed, and with publicity campaigns, in other words, the entire cost of going metric if it were done in a single hit.
The Metric Association (while obviously favouring metrification) disagrees with the basis of how this figure was calculated, citing the example of Irish conversion and installation of new signage in our existing system and estimates the cost closer to £160 per sign. You don’t need to do it all in one year, you can amend many signs not replace them, traffic management won’t be required for most signs etc (also the DfT adds a 45%-65% “optimism bias to it’s figures, so the actual value they calculated is actually more like £700 per sign).
Even if we assume that the truth lies halfway between those two (essentially the DfT figures without their bias) that still means only a few hundred per sign and nowhere even close to your numbers.
Given we spend at least around £8-£9 (1) Billion on roads alone every single year (of which at least some must be signage) then a one off payment of £0.7 billion isn’t that much money and a payment of £0.08 billion based on Metric Association’s estimate certainly isn’t.
Personally I’d be happy if we switched, but don’t see a pressing need for it.
(1) Tax Payer’s Alliance / Driver’s Alliance – so it might be higher. via BBC News “Drivers ‘losing out’ to railways”
If we are to switch over to driving on the right can we have it phased, as was suggested by one of the Canadian political parties.
Something like – HGVs in January 2011, LGVs and buses in July ’11, cars to follow in December.
You know it makes sense!
And, of course, one of the points I was making is that there is no plan in progress to switch signs from miles to km, and the EU explicitely does not require the UK to do so. Likewise driving on the right (though I like the phasing idea 😉 )
About time the whole lot of road signs was replaced with the standard metric ones used throughout most of the world.
Somebody mentioned about how pints and miles were only kept for old duffers. That seems somewhat unlikely to me. Both miles and pints are just really good measurements – a mile is about a twenty minute walk and a pint is just the right amount.
“We keep miles and pints for old buffers like me – and to confuse americans, perhaps.”
No, if you want to confuse Americans you need to use metric measurements, which they’ve never adopted, even in the half-hearted UK fashion. (Though they are sometimes surprised to find that we haven’t gone continental, and some are even more surprised at the idea that we invented imperial…)
“(also the DfT adds a 45%-65% “optimism bias to it’s figures, so the actual value they calculated is actually more like £700 per sign).”
I have never heard of a more wonderful thing than an “optimism bias”. Could that be the defining characteristic of the liberal democratic personality? I propose to use it next time I am accused of naivety: “No, I’m just applying a 50% optimism bias.” Beautiful.
Signs should be put up every 2 furlongs, and distances shown in miles and furlongs.
If you look up Driver Location Signs in Wikipedia, you will see the photograph that is used on this blog. You will also read how the use of kilometres by road engineers and miles by motorists co-existed until the advent of the mobile telephone. If you want to use your mobile phone to summons help, then please use the numbers on the blue signs – they the numbers that the emergency services have been using for years. Of course, if you would rather walk to the nearest emergency phone box, it is up to you, but just remember to quote the number on the driver location sign closest to where the emergency is – it will speed things up.
The railways still use miles and chains for distances, and indeed have just spent quite a lot of money putting new signs up on bridges etc telling you their reference number and the number of miles and chains from wherever the measurements start (usually the London terminal).
I think that these new motorway signs are a waste of money. If the AA are trying to rescue you from the motorway, all they need to know is the previous junction number. And can’t mobile phones identify where you are, anyhow?
It seems to me that underlying this discussion on road signs lies the fallacy that the metric system is being imposed by the EU as a foreign measurement system. This is simply untrue.
The metric system was invented in London.
The metric system was first described in London by Bishop John Wilkins in 1668 – the French did not develop this British invention until 120 years after its invention in England. See here and here
Curiously, I think that the metric system travelled from England to France via the fledgling United States of America. Without the influence of Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and George Washington and their promotion of decimal arithmetic in France in the 1780s and 1790s, I doubt that any of us would now experience the daily benefits of the metric system, see here
By the way, Australian road signs were replaced in a single day (1974 July 1) after a few yearsf planning to reduce costs by taking advantage of cyclical replacements and the use of stickers over old signs. From memory the change was made on a Sunday and by about the following Wednesday we had forgotten all about it and could get on with our lives without the constant bickering debate as in the UK (1965 to now is 45 years – and counting).
Cheers,
Pat Naughtin
Geelong, Australia
“Without the influence of Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and George Washington and their promotion of decimal arithmetic in France”
See – this PROVES it is a a plot by the NWO and the Illuminati!
@Tim – I think your right on the waste of money. However you don’t always know what the last junction number you passed was. I still don’t know which junction Halifax is on the M62 and I’ve been turning off there for about 12 years!
Would we waste money changing from mile signs to kilometre signs on our roads if the UK were not a member of the EU?
The EU bureaucrats want the UK to become a collection of regions in a country called Europe. So all the road signs have to be changed to be the same all over. Who authorised this?
Either the EU will effectively destroy the Liberal Democrats, or the LIberal Democrats will destroy our country. I know which I woud prefer.
Dane,
the answer to that is possibly.
Aren’t you still dead set against the creation of a Thames Valley region, on the grounds that being able to add ‘Oxfordshire’ to your address adds a few extra grand to your house price? Talk about a postcode lottery!
You know, I think this HUGE cost of the changeover to metrics is a bit of a con. Road signs have to be replaced from time to time, so a bit of forward planning can ensure that the cost of changing over the signs can be minimised or eliminated. Australia did it, New Zealand did it, Canada did it and so did South Africa and Ireland. If all these countries can change over to metric road signs, so can the UK.
And, guess what? Changing the road signs is no big deal for Norm and Edna Everidge. The signs changed in a day. Within a week you couldn’t even find one of the old signs if you looked for them. It was all over.
How do I know? Well, unlike your armchair experts who tell you how terrible metric road signs will be, I know what i am talking about. I was in Australia when the changeover happened in July 1974 and it was largely a non-event.
Huw Dawson
Posted 4th January 2010 at 12:08 am | Permalink
Somebody mentioned about how pints and miles were only kept for old duffers. That seems somewhat unlikely to me. Both miles and pints are just really good measurements – a mile is about a twenty minute walk and a pint is just the right amount.
Try to think outside the box, to walk one km takes about 15 minutes, isn’t that neat? The pint the right amount, only because your used to it.
{{Sigh}}
Just come away from someone arguing against something that plain isn’t there.
There is a difference between arguing that a case against something (ie HerewardTW’s huge numbers of pounbds per sign argument) is nonsense, and seriously arguing in favour of something.
In my view, there would not be significant problems if we switched to kilometeres on the roads, or half litres in the pub. This is not an argument in favour of doing so!
Ah, metrication. Britain’s own shining trophy of incompetence.
The Eurosceptics have got us all believing metric road signs would pave to way for an EU takeover. The ultra-conservatives claim they would cause mass confusion and civil disobedience because “nobody understands metric”. The DfT have tried to put it off by claiming fitting them would lead to financial ruin.
However, the embarrassing truth is that Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Jamaica and (most recently) Ireland all managed to convert their road signs from imperial to metric within the last 40 years without any of these things happening.
Ultimately, there is nothing standing in the way of us getting on with it NOW and finally putting metrication to bed. We’re just collectively procrastinating because we’ve lost momentum.
It’s a bit like the lazy sod who starts building a house, finishes most of it, gets bored, then spends the next few years giving his family exaggerated excuses as to why he can’t finish it today as they struggle on living inside an awkward, undecorated shell. Everyone inconvenienced, all just for a little bit of extra effort to dust off the tools and finish the job.
Those in a position to do something about it should ask themselves: just how much longer do we want Britain to be known as the only nation in the world that started metrication but only got half way because it couldn’t be arsed to finish it?
Why change the road signs to metric?
It’s certainly more efficient to use one set of weights and measures rather than two.
Metric signs have internationally recognised symbols. This means simpler signs, especially in Welsh-speaking areas. Of course, simpler signs are inherently safer, and internationally recognised symbols are inherently safer, so that’s an advantage.
Instead of 550 yards or 550 yards/ 550 llath, the replacement sign would simply read 500m.
Instead of a weight restriction of 7.5 T mgw the replacement sign would simply read 7.5 t. The latter sign is not only shorter, it means the same in every language. That means the sign is instantly readable for foreign drivers, and that makes the metric sign inherently safer.
Metric signs certainly make sense in Northern Ireland. Having different signs in Northern Ireland from the Republic doesn’t make sense, especially as some roads wind back and forth on both sides of the border.
Metric signs would be better understood by most visitors. This could result in fewer accidents such as bridge strikes from high lorries crashing into low bridges. Once again, metric signs have a safety advantage.
Eventually, metric conversion would result in far less cluttered speedometer dials. This can be seen at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrication . A simpler, less cluttered dial is easier to read. More importantly for older drivers, there is room for the figures to be made larger. That’s a safety advantage, too.
When you metricate the road signs it will again be possible for British drivers to work out fuel economy easily, only this time it will be litres per hundred kilometres.
Of course there would be the cost and inconvenience of changing over. However, I know from experience that the fear of changing the signs is far greater than the change itself. However, the advantages of metric road signs would be permanent, with simple road signs that all can understand, whether or not they understand English. And that’s the best advantage of all.
The same problem of switching over to kilometers is also here in the US. Its just too expensive to switch all the signs to kilometers. There are over thousands and thousands of miles of roads in the US. Thats A LOT of signs to change. Plus, I don’t see a reason to switch to kilometers. I can’t speak for all Americans but for the ones I know and myself, miles and feet work fine for us. Yes, it might be easier to convert things but, who really cares if you can quickly convert the kilometer distance from say Minneapolis to Houston into meters or centimeters. We never told the world they had to switch their roads signs in to km and m.Thats just me. Why fix something thats not broken.
I really was brought up on metric, and theres no way i want good old imperial to go!. Miles feet and inches are BETTER BY MILES AND I WAS TAUGHT Metric..
imperial maths are better than metric..be honest…and that bit about foreginers hitting our bridges etc what hogwash…why dont our truckers hit there metric bridges then???????????Its just a big EU superstate plan to take over Britian once and for all. They locked up British traders for selling in pounds and ounches..what democracy is that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I long for a war to sort this mess out once and for all there are many many lions still awake in Britian.
DOWN WITH THE EU AND DOWN WITH METRIC…EVERY NIGHT MY SON COMES HOME SFROM SCHOOL HE IS TAUGHT IMPERIAL MATHMATICS, This is the better system by MILES.
I long for Britain to become Britain and she shall..another point why take Britanina off the coinage???? yet more creeping EU, Why should we be tagged with 315 million pounds a week paying into the EU to be in a country club??.
GET REAL ENGLAND /SCOTLAND/WALES/NORTHERN IRELAND…..WE THE BRITISH ARE BEING HOODWINKED BY DOGY POLITICIANS…AND SOMETHING GO TO GIVE…..VERY SOON.DOWN WITH TH EU,
Can someone really explain why we should change all our perfectly decent understood signs with different signs with different numbers on it? And why, when a poll was conducted, only 4% of British citizens favoured ‘going metric’?
Maybe we should make the change and send the bill to that 4% ? 🙂
Incidentally – if the erection of small signs with strange numbers on them that the vast majority of road users will have no idea what they mean even if they notice them is somehow seen as a ‘victory for metric fans’ (all seven of them) then it goes to show how insignificant this whole story is.
Do you notice the little circular signs by the side of the motorway? About 5 inches across with four segments of red on yellow (each quarter going red as you drive them)? Well they are mile markers with each quarter representing a quarter of a mile. It’s technical and used for calibration. Fortunately I’m not going to parade up and down my living room citing some form of ‘imperial victory’ and write a report about it.
And Pat, thinking of a decimal way to working out how long things are is hardly inventing a metric system! We all know and are taught that the metric system is French. There’s nothing wrong with that and trying to put across that it must not be French but ‘good old British’ just to make people all triumphant sounds a bit Xenophobic to me.
Lets face it – Imperial is a great system and so is metric. It just boils down to what you happen to be doing at the time or what you’re used to. However – spending gazillions on changing signs no one has asked to be changed for no financial benefit. no safety improvement (we have some of the best road safety stats in the world), and no real reason except for 4% of the population to get a warm feeling inside is just nutty.
Iain, it always appears to me that the use of the meter is much more widespread in the UK than the use of the kilometer. Can you see Britain metrifying road signs with distances in yards and feet, but not to replace any distances in miles? So signs that a zebra crossing is 100 yds ahead would be replaced (probably just with a reference to 100 meters, since there is always a fair degree of rounding on road signs), signs that refer to a motorway exit at 300 yds would also be updated, but the old distance sign (Manchester 50 miles) would remain and so would signs that refer to an exit that comes in 0.5 mile.
NO NO NO!
OUT OF THIS EU, YOU PARTIES LAB/LIB/CON….CANNOT IGNORE THE BRITISH PUBLIC FOR EVER..OR WAR WILL SURELY COME.THE BRITISH WANT OUT 89% WANT OUT OF THE EU NOW.
#
PS ITS ILLEGAL TO HAVE METRIC ON BRITISH ROADS..SOD THE EU AND I HAVE NO EU PRESIDENT STANDING FOR ME QUEEN AND COUNTRY. UKIP ALL THE WAY NOW
Martin, it might be time for you to realise that metrification has nothing to do with the EU. The use of metric in Britain goes back to the Weights and Measures Act of 1896, well before there was an EU. Replacing imperial with metric was recommended by Select Committees as early as 1910, then again in 1951, well before the EU came to exist. And then in 1965 the Board of Trade and the Confederation of the British Industry announced metrification. So is that a complete ignorance of the British public? Don’t be silly. No, it was something that came from within Britain, just like the decimalisation of the pound. Presumably you see that as EU too and want that to be reserved?
Pino – I understand your point if you dislike or even hate UK measures – which must be your position because there is no economic benefit, there is no safety benefit, and there is no democratic benefit, and -now- you tell us there is no EU enforcement of it (although what on earth was the EU ‘climbing down from requiring us to convert to’ recently). However a few points – the use of meters is not as widespread as you think (most people talk in hundreds of yards – eg “The pub is 100 yards on the left”, “Beckham scores another one from 40 yards”, etc). So mixing meters with miles is not only ugly but -again- unwanted by the majority and also confusing. Confusing because we use ‘m’ for miles on UK roads. Most denote distances to services on motorways however the use of ‘m’ for both meters and miles does not look right. Using the full word ‘meters’ looks even worse.
I’m yet to be convinced of ANY benefit of conversion of UK roads to metric – apart from annoying the majority and delighting about 4% of the populous who – oddly – hate ‘miles’.
As far as I am concerned the author here is not advocating a conversion of our roads to metric but trying to put across that the EU is not involved in metrication and on this specific instance he is totally correct. In fact the article really has very little to do with metrication and a lot to do with EU-power perception (although I probably would not go as far as people not knowing what a gallon is – either just under 5 litres and or 8 pints depending on whether you are the sort who would win a pub quiz!!)
P.S. The decimalisation of our pound was way before I was aware of such things! However it was not to do with the EU as you say. That’s because the EU had a different name back then. And yes there was a link!
Pino
I take it your a europhile, the ones who said Britain would die if we never joned the euro…how wrong was that or was it the british public who were locked up for selling pounds and ounces??? or the scrapping of the acre from the 1/1/2010 to hectres an instruction of EU law??? or then we also have to give up our self right to govern ourselves oh did i foget the irish vote once said no ..lets have another go oh sorry i must be wrong and the EU is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
Now the British Three parties scared Shi*less to give the British a vote to trade only and leave this Eu monster, alot of British are getting very very angry with our none soverign governments giving the nation away to foreign powers under a biro pen occupation.
Sorry but Britian was and is better under its own rules and regs..take for instance Gordon brown the other week..stating on the TV that he will stop the immigration issues from out side the EU…Key word here the EU,,,,well well well.. thats the problem its 95% from the EU and we cannot stop it because of them…what right does the EU have to inflict this on our nation??
So please pino don’t tell me or any other Brit , that the EU are not taking over or inforcing metric, because its bull and you know it.The french invented metric in 1715. The USA is imerial only and look how well they do..i was brought up on metric but and its a big but a poor relation to imperial, imperial is miles better. I run a artic fleet of over 140 artics and staff and non one and i mean no one uses metric for bridges its all imperial even gthe young drivers switch back to imperial as they also say its better for spacial approach by the eye when having a trailer on the back of your rig,
Your wrong and the British government are wrong and the EU are wrong if you think your going to break this nation with bulls*it laws and presidents and state police. I have a friend in Brussels who is in with the MEP’s and the regular saying on the seated areas in this jacked up parliment is and remember he’s belgium BREAK BRITAIN.
Immigration to break the spirit of the brits, laws from a foreign land,jail senatances to change there custom weights and measures, banning words, losing our own fishing waters so the scottish havde no fishing rights, thre anti british parties who lie and cheat there own people out of a referendum, which would be bent if offered any way,flying a foreign national blue flag on our shores when we are not even meant to be taken over,the BBC tv used as astate television to promote Eu everywhere (the brussels broadcasting corp).
The list goes on lying about the sterling and trying to force into a Euro cash which will fail any way and also paying £315 million pounds per week to pay to be in this club…..how much evidence do you want mate…wake up fix your bayonnets and pull up the sand banks…and dig in for a fight for british freedom and back to the 1215 maga carta.
God bless Britannia… and stuff the EU for good.
Welsh Dragon, as a non-Brit, I’ve got my feelings about which system is superior, but the decision for or against metric is yours to take. Particularly now that the EU has taken the position that the mile can stay as far as they are concerned. So then hold the discussion on the basis of the proper arguments: dislike for the EU is not one, dislike for things that are French just disqualify you as a village idiot (and that’s all I’ll say to Martin). Just have a proper argument on the merits. Recognise that metrification in Britain has to a large extent come from within. The signs referred to in the original post are just the umpteenth example. If that discussion ends up with a choice to leave things as they currently stands, then it’s not up to me to complain. If the discussion remains at the level of “everything non-British is crap”, it drags down the entire nation.
As to 4% approval rate, it’s worth as much as the number of people that will respond “yes” to the question “do you believe there should be tax cuts”. It’s an imposter that changes like these face heavy opposition. But the bottom line is also that the vast majority of the Britons will have disapproved many changes that were made in the past (decimalisation, introduction of other metric units), but will approve of those changes now.
Pino – “Particularly now that the EU has taken the position that the mile can stay as far as they are concerned”
See? You recognise an EU ‘link’.
The poll in question simply said “Do you prefer kilometre or miles?” during a few days when the UKMA got some publicity for their road metrication ideas (which backfired by the way).
Martin – I suggest you look at the estate agents descriptions and land placards. They’re all in acres (for big properties with land). whether they are breaking any laws or not is another thing (maybe the organisations ignore the laws)
I would be silly if I did, wouldn’t I? The point I was making though is that metrification in Britain has largely been a non-EU thing. It started well before there was an EU (or European Communities for that matter) and has gone on after Britain joined the EU on the basis of non-EU initiatives. See the original post. Maybe 15% of metrification in Britain has been EU driven, even less when you consider that those various EU directives essentially laid down the metrification policy of the British government. Only when it came to the final step of replacing inches, foot, yards and miles with metric units has there been an EU that pushed for something that the British government did not want.
Now that that battle with the EU has been won, why is the British discussion about metrification still about EU plots or victory of the French? Was the metrification of Australia, New Zealand and Canada also an EU plot or a secret French invasion?
I think the problem came along when an EU treaty was denied a referendum and all of a sudden we were obliged to ‘domestically’ use metric. Stepping back- for a moment – from the number of advantages to Britain that metric roads gives (that is, zero) can someone explain why selling loose apples in Cornwall for 30p per pound causes Britain to lose out? Or how it causes friction with Europe? Or how it gives the UK unfair advantage or disadvantage? I’m all for letting metric in to make international trade easier and to benefit Britain (and anyone else if there’s no cost) but what on earth were they thinking when they decided that local sales that did not involve Europe in any way should be forced in metric? Worse – to make sure everyone ‘preferred metric’ they made it a CRIMINAL OFFENCE to sell traditionally in pounds and ounces (as it had been for centuries with no issues at all)!
So yes it’s true that the EU did not DIRECTLY force us to use metric – however thanks to some horse trading and back scratching, one of the weakest leaders this country has ever had allowed a raft of rules FROM THE EU to be put upon the people WITHOUT CONSULTATION. THAT is what people are on about. So of course now everything metric is seen as an ‘evil EU plot’. Congratulations! Weak Politicians have associated ‘metric’ with unpopular bullying power. Why do you think ‘populist’ supermarkets and local shops are now ‘allowed’ to show imperial prices (as secondary to the ignored one) indefinitely?
Any politician – who counts as his or her list of policies – a policy of ‘metrication’ will lose votes quicker than Nick Griffin at a Obama appreciation meeting. And who’s to blame? You guessed it – politicians!
Fortunately the author of this item is not pushing metrication – as we have said – he is highlighting a perception which – on occasion – is wrong. The question is – why did metric get such a bad name? Hopefully we’ve identified that here on this page.
Many posters here seem to be defending the use of imperial measurements on road signs with the sentiment of “it works, so there’s no need to change”. I challenge that.
We should change – indeed, when I was in school in the 1970’s I was under the impression that I’d be part of the last generation to have to cope with one set of measurments in school (and later in work) but a different set foisted on me on the roads. But the proposed change didn’t happen as planned, and nearly 40 years later we’re still in the same old mess.
Meanwhile, millions of our youngsters have had their education damaged by being obliged to cope with the two systems. Almost no British person could tell you the length of the country in km, or the distance (say) to London in km or anywhere else. But kilometres is the international way of measuring such distances, if you want a job in the transport industry, you need to be fluent in those measurements.
But we’re producing generations and generations of youngsters with a crippled ability to think that way. For the sake of them, we must change. And now before even more of our children are similarly damaged. Until it happens, British kids start on the job ladder several rungs disadvantaged with respect to their French, German, Spanish and now Irish competitors in the tough jobs market.
Look back at decimalisation of the currency. £sd had hung in there because “it worked” but eventually the country’s ability to trade internationally was being compromised with the rise of computers, and the inability of foreign computer software to cope with such a wacky system. So we changed. Had there been a referendum, it would have been a resounding “No” but we changed anyway. A few months of irritation and confusion followed (I was there!) but after that it was business as normal and it was all forgotten.
So it will be with “K-day”. For the sake of the children and the country’s competitiveness, let’s please just get on with it?
Do you honestly think that children/their education is damaged because of the usage of miles? Really? How many kids schooled in the 80’s (like me) or 90’s have you heard bemoan their knowledge each time they know something based upon miles? At least can we be realistic – we’re talking about how far things are away/how fast things go/etc – it’s not a case of the collapse of the UK as we see it (along with the USA, presumably, because they use imperial too).
You need to face the reality that there is no mess – it’s just a way of life. And very few really care.
.. a final thought – how about the cost of metrication being paid for – via special taxes – by those who support metrication.
With about 15 new tax demands it would not cause too much beurocracy either….
Miles to stay and thats final and the out of their depth is only from the Eu front as they don’t understand Miles ,but we have to put with there crap………litres on milk when i want pints etc etc..
DOWN WITH THIS ROTTEN EU……THERE WILL ALWAYS BE THE BRITISH AND WE LIKE IMPERIAL MEASUREMENTS.
PS I was taught metric, but switched back to imperial/. much happier now. PS LB & OZ’s to stay also.
Actually most milk has pints and litres written on it – although I’ve yet to hear someone actually go out of their way for five hundred and sixty eight millilitres of milk!!
I was taught only metric at school too. I always find it funny that somehow I am not able to understand this ‘imperial’ stuff because my coursework was all metric! Here am I getting on with my life happily using imperial most of the time yet I was not taught it. I presume to those who use the ‘kids don’t get taught/don’t understand’ excuse that I am a total genius!
Also – I hear that in the 80’s imperial was dropped (when I was at school) but in the 90’s it was re-introduced as part of the curriculum because it was seen as daft not to teach people units that they would actually use ‘in real life’.
Martin: please stop shouting, and while you’re at it please explain what the E.U. has to do with metric? OK, so all the E.U countries actually *use* metric, but so do Australia, New Zealand, China, Japan, India, Pakistan, Russia, Iran, Iraq (and the entire Middle East), all of Africa, all of South America, all of Central America, Canada etc etc. I’ve missed many more countries in that list than I ever listed.
Britain is metric for almost everything, and has claimed (since about 1995) to be an “officially metric” country. When was the last time you bought a gallon of petrol? 6ft of 2×4? Carpet in yards? Wooden flooring in square feet? A pint of orange juice? A pound of cornflakes?
These things just don’t exist any more, but Britain hasn’t stopped being British as a side-effect of all that.
Indeed, the metric system that Luddites seem so keen to deride as “an E.U plot against Britain” was originally proposed in Britain! By the Royal Society of London no less, in 1688. So how on earth has it happened that we’re almost the last in the world to properly adopt what has become the de-facto world standard measurements system that *we* initiated in the first place?
To ‘welshdragon’: yes, our children’s education *is* damaged by having two incompatable systems foisted on them. My son has a same-age friend at school who claimed the other day that he weighed 251kg! He’s 9½ years old and he’s obviously got *no idea* what a kg is. He was out by a factor of about ten, and hadn’t noticed! He then tried to correct this to “3stone 1” which comes out at somewhere about 20kg and is wrong by at least 25% on the low side.
He’s got no clue! What use is he going to be in the jobs market in 10 years time (or whenever?) His school weigh him in kg (as would his doctor, or his Karate club to determine his weight category). But whenever he’s at home his parents go and weigh him in stones and pounds.
He’s stuffed. He’s got the two conflicting systems messed up in his head and understands neither of them, nor does he have any intuitive feel for what he ought to weigh in either system. He’s not a stupid child, quite bright actually, but at this critical point in his development his education is being wrecked by the careless exposure to an antique set of measurements that undo everything he learns.
It’s got to stop. Our government claim that Britain’s future relies on us producing engineers and scientists, but it’s an uphill struggle for us to do any such thing until we stop foisting useless out-of-date measuring systems on our youngsters.
Steve – you’re overreacting somewhat – plus your view of imperial is weird. You say we hardly use any then go on to say people (and 9 yr old boys) do and that it;’s big enough to be able to say ‘It’s got to stop’. Make your mind up, either we Brits all use metric, all use imperial, or all use a mix of both (metric where it’s mandated, imperial where it’s not). I know what my money is on.
So ‘its got to stop”? How do you stop people choosing to use imperial heavily and daily as we mainly do right now? Make it an offence to say those words? I have a certain sympathy for the ‘metric everything’ brigade because they’re largely ignored by the vast majority.
And – for heaven’s sake – this is not what the author’s subject is talking about! Read it again!
You can talk about your preference for metric and see it as popular as you make it out to be (truth being is that even you will use imperial subliminally and thus you ‘notice’ the use of metric by yourself) but this is not the main thrust of this item.
Ooh – this thread is still going is it? Wasn’t paying attention – sorry.
“Make my mind up”. Yes, well I wish I could! The rest of the country too! My previous post had pointed out two different things: 1) we hardly use the old measurements in the shops any more, but 2) many people keep on foisting the old systems on successive generations of our children.
Anyone would agree that it’s true that we hardly use the old measurements in the shops any more, and don’t use them at all in matters of Olympic or similar sports. ( Except for the London Marathon, which for no apparent reason often gets referred to in miles and yards. Despite it being measured out by the race organisers in metric. )
But then, to contradict all that, we *still* have our roadsigns in out-of-date imperial units, despite the fact that they should have been switched to metric in 1973, and they still cause our youngsters to have to learn to cope with a system that contradicts the one they learnt at school, and which they need for their eventual employment. This despite the fact that the roads are engineered in metric units, despite the fact that all the temporary signs that claim yards are required to be sited at distances in metres (as if yards were metres). Despite the fact that when you see a sign saying “Roundabout in 300yds” that there is no way to measure those 300 yards on a normal car odometer which counts in miles and tenths of a mile.
And then the insistence of the Great British Public to carry on using stones and pounds to weigh their children. It’s about as good an idea as smoking over them, or encouraging them to try drugs! Those children will be needing to weigh everything in kg in their lives, so why confuse them with some other system? Especially because digital scales will weigh you in kg at the touch of a switch, and if it’s a mechanical balance, you can read the weight in kg off the other of the two scales provided. Back to the shops for a moment – we buy everything we buy in kg these days, we’re all familiar with it, we all use it every day. What’s with weighing people? Why is that different?
It’s a mess. Magna Carta requires *our* government to mandate, use and enforce *one* system of weights and measures precisely because even back in 1215 it was recognised that two or more contradictory systems was damaging to the country (back then it was Anglo Saxon girds and barleycorns versus the Norman invaders’ feet and inches). Times have moved on, but it’s just as true now.
To close the loop back to motorway distance boards – yes, great idea, but limited in use until the distance signs get changed to km to match. If you’re on the M5 ‘A’ side, and the distance board tells you that you’re at the 120km point, and a sign nearby says “Exeter 120km” then you’ll know exactly how far you’ve still got to go all the way down the road as it’s obvious that when you get there the distance boards will be reading 240km, and you can watch them counting up to that point.
But – no – it doesn’t work like that because it’s a mess! The distance sign will tell you “Exeter 75m” (which you have to magically understand means miles not metres as per international agreement). And then you have to multiply 75 by 1.6 in your head to work out the 120km bit for yourself before you can apply it to the distance boards.
A pointless reduction in the usefulness of those distance boards. Please can someone in the DfT just bite the bullet and convert the distance signage to metric?
Where do people get these absurdly high prices for converting traffic duodecimal-measured signs to metric. In Spain, last week the government decided to reduce 20 000 signs on roads from 120 km/h to 110 km/h so as to encourage drivers to consume less petrol. The cost? 35 GBP/sign so there you go.
What part of your article proves that the kilometre sighns are not indeed insidious? That you need to say they are not further suggests that they are! These signs could easily be placed 500 yards apart and the distance not deceitfully “hidden”. The countdown markers are 100yards apart. Why do the new signs differ?
“Hidden”, David Gray? Nothing hidden about those signs! The numbers on them are exactly the same as on the little marker post that they stand next-to. Obviously therefore they wouldn’t be spaced out at 500yd intervals because the little posts are at 100m intervals and the whole purpose of the big signs is to make the data on the little posts easier to read from further away and at speed.
Oh, and the junction countdown markers I think you’ll find are at approximately 100m intervals if the road was build fairly recently – like in the last 15 to 20 years or so. But no-one is going to bother to move the old 100yd countdown posts on the older roads – it’s not as if anyone is seriously going to notice the difference between 100yds and 100m as they pass by. And it’s not as if the countdown markers were ever positioned that accurately in the first place. They have to be sited where they can be seen, don’t obstruct any sightlines and don’t get in the way of vital roadside hardware.
This is totally ridiculous we have our own system based on common sense and measurements that are suited to the consumer and the general public and I don’t really care how European roads signs are as long as the dont force the nonsense metric system down our throats I am sick and tired of metrication in the uk , can’t they just leave what’s good enough alone.
James says: “I am sick and tired of metrication in the UK , can’t they just leave what’s good enough alone”.
That’s the problem, James. Large numbers of people don’t think that Britain’s old measurements are “good enough” which is why they won’t be “left alone”.
What is “good enough” about consigning our youth to the dustbin of world history by teaching them a system of weights and measures that is only used in this one small country? The rest of the world has moved on. Our own thinkers back in the 17th century could see it, evidently you James can not. Our own governments of the 1960’s and 1970’s could see it, which is why (with pushing from the CBI) the old system hasn’t been taught in school since the 1970’s.
Wander down a street and ask people how many yards there are in a mile. If you get any right answers, they’ll mostly be from people older than 55 or younger folk keen on winning pub quizzes!
Hi Folks.. As a child I was taught the Imperial system of weights and measures but in 1976 my country (New Zealand) officially adopted the metric system. I am therefore familiar with both systems. I support the metric system. If your were to ask a New Zealander or an Ausralian if they would ever change back to Imperial the answer would be NO.That says something about the metric system. You may ask why am I am in this debate? Well I find the UK metrication situation both interresting and intriguing.
To Mr Ian Roberts….. Thank you for the interesting article. It certainly stired up a few people as anything to do with the EU often does.
Pat Naughtin …posted..2010.01.04 Excelent comments from a guy who knew alot about the metric system. Pat passed away in July 2011. RIP Pat Naughtin.
Hareward the Wake…Thank you for your comments and the info regarding the DfT processes and bureaucracy. A project to convert road signs to metric would of course require ammendments and changes to laws and regulations so would not have to follow exsisting laws. Also there would be some cost reduction.
Pino.. Interesting comments I note you are not a Brit and assume you live or have lived outside the UK. Often it is the people living outside the UK who can see the bigger picture. They have more exposure to metrics and can see the benefits of metrics and the downside of the Imperial system.
MARTIN…The metric system is simply a weight and measurement system. I guess you service your artics. Have a good look under the bonnet next time because they mostly use metric nuts bolts and threads and ask yourself WHY?. Although the EU has been involved in pushing metrication onto the UK (about 15% has been mentioned) the really big push (the other 85%) is from the rest of the world through trade and gobalisation.If the UK had no European agreements (ie EEC EU) metrication would still have occured. Metrication in the UK will contine as it has throughout the world (even the USA uses metric)
Steve…. I agree with your comments especially about the impact of the hybrid (ie both metric and Imperial) situation on education of young people, the future of the UK. I wish also to emphasize the importance of the metrication of road signs on the educating of road users and general public to the metric system. Ask the question. How is the general public learning the metric system now? The answer is through shopping Most people become aware of metrication in supermarket minimarkerts and markets. However its only half done. The road signs are the other half. When (and its not if but when and how) the road signs are metric the general public through road use will familiarize themselves the metric distances (a self education) The road signs are the last big hurdle towards the full metication of the UK.
Finally… The metric system is SIMPLE to learn. It just takes a little time to get familiar with it.
The metric system is HONEST a Litre is a Litre all over the world. Not like the gallon.and ounce.
The metric system is WORDWIDE. All counties use the metric system.(including the USA) To use any
other system is a form of isolation.
Remember that there is nothing to fear from the metric system. It is not NWO or a French plot to destroy the UK. Its only a weight and measurement system used by the rest of the world..
Merry Christmas folks…
Just a few ‘get into the real world bits:
Firstly – the 3-2-1 markers are yards, The full rule is 1 mile half a mile then 321,
Doing 60 mph you can make out a minute until it’s time to swerve from 3rd lane to the exit!
Seriously though – who would look at there milometer to use as a scientific use on the 3-2-1 boards?
Do you think that (e.g.) a spanish bloke would follow their -erm- ‘mil’ometer numbers?
REAL WORLD CHECK
Stopping someone in the street to ask for miles and how many yards are in them.
When was the last time you have been asked that question during your entire life?
It is not important. The biggest use of it is when selling your car.
Incidentally – no-one would stop a spanish person (in spain) to divide by 10 to get them to say metres?
Who cares? No-one.
It cannot be in the 1000s to change a sign. Last year the Spanish government decided to reduce the national speed limit from 120 km/h to 110 km/h by replacing sticker signs over the 120 signs and they were not in the 1000s. As usual Britain lags behind the rest of the world just as it took so long to change from the Julian to the Gregorian Calendar! It will happen one day but it is such a protracted process, painfully slow. In any case, many people may not realise that the following signs are in preparation for metric signage: 1/3 mile = 500 m; 2/3 mile = 1 km; 1/2 mile = 800 m plus all the distance signs for towns and cities are equally convertible.
What is the harm in leaving it as it is?
Why change numbers o other numbers? In a recession?
What is the harm in leaving it as it is?
Why change numbers to other numbers?
I think you have asked the key questions.
Drivers have used Imprial measures on road signs for donkey years. There doesnt seem to be much benefit from changing to metric measures. Well not from a road users perspective. But we need to see the metrication of road signs in the bigger picture of UK metrication.
Metrication started in 1965 and should have taken 10 to 12 years. Its now dragged on 47 years since it started. It has resulted in the confusing hybrid situation of mixed measures, that benefits no one, and stunts our develorment as a progressive nation. The metrcaion process is largely complete except for road signs and pints. Most people have accepted metric measures Kilograms and litres are generally accepted but kilometres, metres, and miles have become mixed. Imperial road signs are one of the significant causes of the mixed measurement muddle. As long as Imperial road signs remain. the mixed measurement muddle remains. The metric system is a system. It wont be a complete system, until distance/length (metres), mass/weight (kilograms/grams), and voume (litres), are fully metricated into our society community and daily life.
Just to reply to WelshDragon who asks “Why change numbers to other numbers? In a recession?”
“During a recession” is a good time to do it. It can be used as a drive to get local authorities to put some of their road gangs on “Working at Height” courses so they can tackle fixing signs on gantries over motorways. Maybe even to employ a few more people too.
But the main thing is that by doing housekeeping work like this in a recession, then by the time the recession is over, Britain is (as David Cameron would say) Ready for Business in a more obvious way than it is at present.
Currently, potential investors in our fine country would be forgiven for thinking that they’d wandered into the Middle Ages within minutes of setting foot in the place. This must be costing us, and when it comes to getting out of recession you seriously don’t want anything to get in the way.
And the cost of all this? Very little in the scheme of things, as has been pointed out time and time again in the comments above. The benefits to the country and to its workforce would be incalculable, but I do agree, the benefits to the motorists are minor. They’re just numbers on signs.
But if they are just numbers on signs, can we not please have the RIGHT numbers on signs?
Well, at the end of the day we’re not going metric. Our signs stay. I’m not sure why I’m arguing – I’m arguing for the status quo.
Sorry metric lovers – the vast majority just happens to prefer imperial.
To say it’s near complete is fantasy.
If anything there’s a move back to imperial (check kids toys, B&Q etc etc.
Where we really HAVE gone metric is drugs. And that’s probably a good thing
thanks