Reacting to Theresa May’s Brexit speech, Liberal Democrat leader Tim Farron said:
Theresa May is leading the UK towards a hard Brexit that was never on the ballot paper. This is a theft of democracy, a presumption that the 51.9% of people who voted to leave meant the most extreme version of Brexit available.
The BBC reports further remarks from Tim:
Lib Dem leader Tim Farron says Mrs May has adopted “Nigel Farage’s Brexit plan” which is bad news for the UK, accusing the prime minister of “waving the white flag across the white cliffs of Dover” regarding single market exit.
He says there has been a “theft of democracy” and it is wrong for Parliament to be given a vote on this “stitch-up” and the public not being consulted.
The main points of Theresa May’s speech are:
- She says the UK will leave the single market but seek access to it with barriers or tarrifs
- UK wants bespoke free trade deal with the EU
- MPs and peers to get vote on final Brexit deal
- The UK is to start official process of leaving in EU in March
- The Common Travel area in Ireland will be a priority
- She ruled out a long transitional arrangement but said there could be individual interim arrangements to minimise disruption to certain sectors of the economy.
- The UK will seek a bespoke customs agreement with the EU
* Paul Walter is a Liberal Democrat activist and member of the Liberal Democrat Voice team. He blogs at Liberal Burblings.
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54 Comments
Not this again.
The Ballot paper said Leave/Remain. All this hard Brexit/soft Brexit suff is an after the fact attempt by the losing side to undermine the result. It does not wash and it is not going to work.
Was being in the single market with uncontrolled immigration ,continuing to pay into the EU budget with jurisdiction by the European court on the ballot paper ?
Or would that just be the EU under another name ?
Will the labour party back this?
Will the supreme court enforce a vote on the triggering of Art50 and will the parliamentary number stack up if they do?
Is Art50 irrevocable?
Still possible slips between cup and lip.
Labour will back this – it’s a straight fight between us and the establishment now.
Soft Brexit is not something Remainers have invented, it was the Leavers’ manifesto, in particular that we could stay in the Single Market.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/open-britain-video-single-market-nigel-farage-anna-soubry_uk_582ce0a0e4b09025ba310fce
And more generally that all the co-operation that is in our interests could continue (which is perhaps more like 90% in and 10% out than half in half out.)
Sorry glen and co. The following comments were made before the vote in June
Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the Single Market
Daniel Hannan MEP
Only a madman would actually leave the market
Owen Paterson MP, Vote Leave backer
Wouldn’t it be terrible if we were really like Norway and Switzerland? Really? They’re rich. They’re happy. They’re self-governing
Nigel Farage, Ukip leader
The Norwegian option, the EEA option, I think that it might be initally attractive for some business people
Matthew Elliot, Vote Leave chief executive
Increasingly, the Norway option looks the best for the UK
Arron Banks, Leave.EU founder
From that BBC link – ‘She [May] says there is a “goodwill on both sides” and the UK and EU can build a partnership beneficial to both of them in a constructive and positive way.’
Is it just me or does that sound as if something that could loosely be described as informal talks have actually been taking place?
Huw Dawsonnames and – ‘Labour will back this – it’s a straight fight between us and the establishment now.’
The EU is the Establishment. What you make of that particular establishment is another question.
It is becoming clear that the top leavers are to use the narrow win for leave as an excuse to bring forward the most extreme anti EU plans. Glen: I dont know what planet you live on or why you are so supportive of the Farage vision of EU/British relations. But this is going to hurt…not the establishment but all those who consider themselves middle or working class. The poll about Labour voters indicates that they voted anti Tory not pro leave or at least not outside the single market. We now have a majority of the population unsupportive of the May/Farage plan. Do our MPs have the interests of their constituents at the forefront of their minds or will they retreat behind the leadership of the extreme right. I am afraid I know.
I totally applaud the Prime Minister`s speech. Brexit means Brexit and this is exactly what I voted for. I am dubious about the transitional periods. Everyone knew that a
“Leave” vote meant exiting the Single Market and the Customs Area.
Why did she wait so long to say this???
Have to say I’m delighted as far as `waving the white flag` is concerned it’s obvious it’s Tim that’s waving the white flag to the British people.
After the huge amount of gruelling debate it’s obvious that if the EU didn’t reform on Labour movement and other issues the only decision would be hard brexit.
The fact is that the Lib Dems are psychologically wedded to a particular view of `no borders Liberalism` that equals being progressive with hyper-institutionalism (ie that thinks that institutional ideology is more importnat than creating new realities) a very regressive and conservative view of the situation and one I may say is highly illiberal and against the usual forward-thinking view of Liberals.
Tim has said that May is `waving the white flag` – I think he’s waving the white flag in front of the working class British people. He’s certainly waving the white flag in front of me.
Huw Dawsonnames and 17th Jan ’17 – 1:22pm……….Labour will back this – it’s a straight fight between us and the establishment now……..
Corbyn said, “Theresa May has made clear that she is determined to use Brexit to turn Britain into a bargain basement tax haven on the shores of Europe. She makes out this is a negotiating threat to the 27 EU countries but it’s actually a threat to the British people’s jobs, services and living standards.
We welcome that the prime minister has listened to the case we’ve been making about the need for full tariff free access to the single market but are deeply concerned about her reckless approach to achieving it.
This speech should have been given in parliament where MPs could ask her questions on behalf of their constituents. She talks about Brexit restoring parliamentary sovereignty but, once again, she is determined to avoid real scrutiny of her plans.”
Doesn’t sound like ‘backing’ to me
Dave Becket,
Is it really that hard for you to spell the name Glenn wit two Ns. Believe it or not I know how to spell my own name,
The vote was Leave or Remain, not soft soft or hard or variations thereof. It was a very simple binary question. Remain lost and I am really pleased it did as is every leave voter I talk to. We voted to leave the EU not half remain or to hang on for a bit or to have it strung out for ever.
On Brexit I fully support the PM, who as a prominent remain supporter should be applauded for her ability to adapt.
I think I am a fairly balanced individual. I voted to leave.
May’s speech really summed up and to speak to exactly what I wanted/expected when I vote to leave. I appreciate that most on here will disagree with. I get that and your counter arguments will fair and valid.
1. historical differences in political systems. wanting direct accountability of representatives. dislike/not seeing the need for large trans-national political bodies. … [yes absolutely this is the heart of the problem with the democratic deficient the EU has. (perceived or otherwise)]
2. leaving the single market to remain boarder control, removal the primacy of EU law and the judicial oversight of the ECJ…. [ yes…. return of full sovereign control and accountability to the UK parliament and uk courts. ]
3. Desire to construct and mutually beneficial free-trade agreement between the UK and the UK [yes, this is what the relationship should have been all along, we never needed a political union to have a free trade area]
4. To allow hope for a strong and successful EU which can now get on with as much integration and political+economic development as it wishes. [yes, without a UK who never shared the integrated federated single political union, things should be smoother for both the UK and the EU]
5. To continue developments and close cooperation on areas of mutual interest such as science projects/infrastructure, policing, intelligence, environment etc.. [yes all good stuff, leaving the EU political structures does not mean that we cannot have friendly and good interdependence on pragmatic areas of interest]
6. ability to develop free trade agreements on our own terms with whoever we wish [yes.. this is the big bonus of leaving the EU… o much easier to satisfy one coherent national interest rather than 28 competing ones]
7. desire to become a low tax, dynamic entrepreneurial tiger economy [this is more a personal view, but I would love to UK to become a European Hong kong or Singapore, dynamic, open, global ]
I appreciate that most will disagree, nut hopefully I am at least giving the viewpoint/mindset of a leave voter who was not that concerned with the immigration issue.
@P.J. – I suspect much will depend on how much those who do not support Theresa May’s idea of Brexit, actually want something different and are prepared to do something about it.
Unfortunately, it would seem that neither Tim nor the LibDems have got very wise to the ways of Westminster and would regard it as being beneath them to use the methods the EU outer’s used to great effect. This BBC article ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-parliaments-38402140 ) gives an indication of the tactics used in the guerrilla war that resulted in the referendum. I see no reason why those favouring Remain shouldn’t also use these tactics…
Appreciate that a lot of Brexiteers have a different view but I canvassed a lot of people who voted leave but wanted to stay in the single market. Some of the Leave campaigns also said that this was a possibility. Just because other individuals don’t agree with this doesn’t mean that everybody voted for the same reasons they did.
Tim is quite correct on this one.
I do find it a little odd of TM to talk of a bold new free trade agreement with the EU, when her demand is to put trade barriers up not to take them down. It’s a bit like a declaration of war being described as a bold new peace treaty.
Gareth Hartwell.
Would you apply the same logic to remain. What kind of remain do you want, were voting for ever greater union, do you really want freedom of movement, do you feel lied too about the likelihood of reform, and so on. Why should I believe remain voters all want the same thing, In my experience lots of them were really only voting because they were worried about the economy despite not really believing in the 4 freedoms or even really in the EU as an institution.
I don’t know why people are getting so upset about the speech.
The democratic vote was to leave the EU. She is respecting that vote & we will leave the EU.
The EU have, right from the start, been truculent & refused to consider any changes to their rules. She has respected their view & so is not asking them to compromise on their freedoms & rules. She is, however, offering them the opportunity to have a trade/customs agreement with us, an offer they can take up if they wish.
Joe, I also find it interesting that part of leaving and tearing up existing trade agreements to enable us to “regain control of our borders”, yet the first thing India put on the list of topics to be addressed in any trade agreement was movement of people. I suspect the issue of movement of people is now going to be part of any trade agreement the UK wishes to negotiate…
@Joe Otten
I am not detecting a desire to put up trade barriers. I see a desire to control immigration. No other trade barrier requires free movement. Indeed a trade agreement does not require it, a political union/quasi-country needs one.
With the customs union, it strikes me as we are looking for equivalence and friction-less movement of goods and services. At the same time being able to then lower trade barriers with the rest of the world.
The single market is very protectionist in nature and has high tariffs with must of the rest of the world.
I realize we will see the same thing in different ways.
Ethics – I know a lot of people voted Leave with the idea of reducing immigration, but really there are an awful lot of other things you could do to reduce immigration. Most of them to do with alterations to our economic model, and most pretty unpleasant, as will this version of leaving the EU. Many others, eg Boris Johnson, supported Leave for totally other reasons. It strikes me that Theresa May has latched on to this (and her obsession with the ECJ) at least partly because of her own personal experience as Home Secretary, and constant, persistent headlines from Mail, Express, and Sun!
By far the best speech May has given. It was clear and left nobody in any doubt that we are leaving. The leavers will be “over the moon” and many remainers like me – who have accepted we are leaving the EU – will be glad of the clarity. Hopefully we will reach a fair trade deal when we leave, but if the EU do try and punish us I think most people now would be happy to walk away. Not the speech most Lib Dems or Guardian readers wanted, but Mrs May’s position looks stronger than ever.
ethicsgradient,
Like it or not we have thrown ourselves into competition with the EU. What you ask for isn’t a plus for them, but ask away ask away. We are arguing over the shared family goods, they want as much as possible as do we; unfortunately for us that sort of argument seldom leads to friendly relationships.
I was pleased with TM Speech
She has handled this entirely correctly.
Setting out clearly what we want one way or another.
Control of our Borders / immigration
Out of the ECJ
Free to make our own trade deals with the rest of the world
She has made clear that we can not stay as a member or the EU / Single market if we are to have these things.
She has made quite clear that we would like to strike trade deals that will give us some access to the markets / customs which would be beneficial to both the UK / EU
It is a sensible negotiating position to go in hard and see what you can get, rather than going in with a can’t do attitude which will get you nothing.
Incidentally, why did this article not acknowledge, TM promised to not only translate EU law protecting workers’ rights into UK law but to ‘build on them? That is something the remain campaign have been concerned about and so should surely welcome this announcement?
She has said we would want to continue to pay into some EU projects like the Sciences, Research and Technology (Again something remainers feared we would give up)
Continue to cooperate with intelligence / security
It will now be down to the 27 remaining member states to set out their red lines amongst themselves and then for the EU / UK negotiators to thrash out a deal.
It;s not Hard Brexit or Soft Brexit or even a Red White and Blue Brexit, it is simply Brexit, what the majority voted for.
There appears to be a large number of Brexiteers wondering around this site, most strange, one would even wonders if it was planned; dammed few are Lib Dems though I would guess.
Matt wrote:
“I was pleased with TM Speech”
Will you be so pleased when employers cut wages, extend hours and sacks people because he dislikes the colour of their eyes?
The reason why May, Johnson, Farage, etc, favour Brexit is because they want to turn the UK into a cheap labour tax haven economy, and to do that they have to scrap the protections that the EU bestows. The very people who stand to suffer the most from Brexit are those who voted Leave in the deluded belief that they were standing up for the British people against foreigners. In reality, it is foreigners (very rich mainly North American foreigners) who will come here and turn them into serfs!
I am genuinely baffled by Tim’s latest outpouring, because before the referendum he was very clear that a vote to Leave was a vote to exit the single market. For instance, from a speech on May 11th 2016: “If we vote to leave, we will face years of uncertainty while our government negotiates different arrangements with individual governments… we will be a bit-player, on the edge of the world’s largest single market.”
Theresa May has merely delivered exactly what Tim and the rest of the Remain campaign said would be inevitable if the people voted Leave. Why the fuss?
Actually I am more worried about Trump wanting to pull the plug on NATO. He will go for this very quickly, it is his style. This will be the major problem way before 2019. Might even suggest we should stay as close as possible to Europe, ie in the EU for our own protection.
@Sesenco
“Will you be so pleased when employers cut wages, extend hours and sacks people because he dislikes the colour of their eyes?”
Do you really believe in that hyperbole? Project fear already lost the argument, they were proven to be wrong, the public did not accept the lies and yet here you are still attempting to peddle the same myths.
TM promised today to not only translate EU law protecting workers’ rights into UK law but to ‘build on them. The Tories would not have a chance in hell in getting re-elected at the next general election if they went into that election trashing workers rights. Deep down you know that, so I don’t understand why you would resort to these kind of scare tactics.
@theakes
Trump is absolute right to make such threats regarding NATO. The USA picks up over 3% of the tab. The UK picks up over 2%. Most of the EU including France and Germany pay a lot less. Germany, the richest country in the EU, pays only 1.1% of GDP.
The EU member states have the most to gain from NATO, the USA has the least to gain, yet the EU countries who are unwilling to pay their fair share squeal the most when Trump criticises them.
@frankie 17th Jan ’17 – 6:01pm
‘There appears to be a large number of Brexiteers wondering around this site, most strange, one would even wonders if it was planned’
How true. My reaction to this torrent of Brexiteer abuse is probably typical of we genuine Lib Dems: It angers me and motivates me to to work ever harder to frustrate their hugely damaging ambitions!
Is the EU internal market nothing to do with the EU or is that exclusively a Lib Dem policy?
I am a LibDem remainer, but I have to say that I find the PM’s approach very sound in the circumstances and I am pleased that she is preparing to uphold parliamentary democracy by allowing a vote on the final proposal. I am not convinced at all by our leader’s rant, sorry! LibDems should cooperate with the government to help formulate the best deal. If that deal is awful at the end of the day, they can vote against it and put their arguments across all parties adn even try to get us to remain. The PM has a very difficult task, and she needs all the help she can get.
To the Brexiteers who seem to have unlimited time to blog, great, see you in Copeland, Stoke and the County Council elections and we’ll see what the electors think.
I am a new member of the Lib/Dem’s and I have to say in my book there is no parliamentary democracy when MP’s are simple told whatever the result, we are leaving anyway. The cry from the Brexiteers was for parliamentary sovereignty was it not. How strange their cry is somewhat muted today and democracy is denied to the citizens.
I’m a lib Dem Leave voter. I come back to this subject only because I think the pro EU stance is a bit of a mistake.
Matt
Should I believe Tory and UKIP lies instead?
Better still, Sun and Daily Mail lies?
Ask yourself why people with higher educational qualifications overwhelmingly voted Remain. Was it because they were all stupid?
Roger Billins wrote:
“To the Brexiteers who seem to have unlimited time to blog,”
Precisely. The Brexit obsessives, I call them. They are so rich that they simply do not need to work. They remind me of the folk who used to fill the letters pages in local rags in years gone by. Hard right, misanthropic, and utterly, crashingly boring.
Arguing with these people is a complete waste of breath. Far better to get out there and deliver a few thousand leaflets. That is what I will be doing.
I’m just waiting for the Leavers to claim that the Referendum result actually meant Nigel Cabage should be Prime Minister…………..
Don Manley – We shouldn’t co-operate with the PM. If we did, when it turns out to be a disaster, which it will, we’ll get some of the blame. Your logic doesn’t hold up old chap.
Well said Leekliberal…
These Leaver trolls get every where don’t they ? They need to expand their social circle methinks.
My initial thoughts are that May is saying, as have others in the months following, that because the Remain campaign told voters that Leave would have a possible list of consequences and Leave won anyway that the Leave side of things (having not tried too hard to define their own campaign up until now) can use this as justification to go ahead with whatever they like as long as it falls under this list.
For future campaigns it may be wiser to ask repeatedly what plans the opposition have rather than drawing up a list of potential bad ideas which they can pinch later and claim that these were always on the table.
People calm down. There is a good news – It is a long game.
Option 1 – May fails to do any negotiation and we go over the cliff edge with no transition – complete fail for her and for the whole country, and Tory party decimated 2020.
Option 2 – May succeeds to start negotiations and agrees on long transition times.
It’s a very complex trading deal and is likely to take more then 5 years.
Note the Brexit can be reversed at any time from the UK parliament if there is enough political will and a majority. Means the next election will decide that. Keep calm and support the lib-dems. They can snatch back enough seats from the tories and form future labour/lib-dem majority. Both the UK and the EU parliaments have enough powers to vote anything needed.
The UK still have plenty of friends in the EU and with their help we can reverse it.
If there is political will in the UK.
Tory party has won the last election based on their pro-EU manifesto. And they have won just. Means this time with the support of all decent conservatives we will win!
We will not accept this country to become Virgin islands offshore zone for the worlds bloody dictators and to end all our human and workers rights. The UK will not be the place where the US dumps all its chlorine soaked chickens.
Let us all normal, liberal, progressive, left and right human beens unite and reverse this lunacy!
The second good news is she said she will not push for a single market. How is that a good news? Because she can’t blame the EU now for the complete failure ahead. It will be her fault.
There is a silver lining – Theresa May will fail completely and we have a chance to win.
@Sesenco
“Ask yourself why people with higher educational qualifications overwhelmingly voted Remain. Was it because they were all stupid?”
What a nasty condescending attitude..
What exactly is it that you are suggesting?
That the people who went to universities vote is worth more than those that did not?
Tell me, how does a degree in say Art, History or archaeology make one more qualified to come to an informed personal decision on whether we should remain or leave the EU?
Tell you what, lets change the laws so that the only people allowed to vote in any election are those that have a higher education, because those that don’t are not “compos mentis” and are not entitled to same level of democracy as that of well educated people.
Absolutely unbelievable
Matt
The unskilled lack prospects and face growing uncertainties. It seems they hanker after a past age.
I think it’s fantastic that Theresa May has decided she wants to leave the single market, as it shows she is not in charge of her own policy and will be unlikely to have a majority at the next general election.
That’s the thing about markets: if you’re not where the customers are then you lose business.
And it’s the same thing about politics: if you’re not where the voters are then you lose votes.
Frankie, Leakiliberal, Tim Hill, Between you, you have suggested that people with pro Leave views have no right to be on Lib Dem Voice, and have referred to their comments as “abuse”, and have called them “trolls” The word “trolls”, in the internet sense, means people who are deliberately abusive to others online. None of the people who have expressed pro Leave views in the comments on this post, have behaved remotely like trolls. They have not been abusive at all. They have just expressed views that are different from current Lib Dem policy. It is the comments of some Remainers that have been worryingly intolerant, and that at times have come close to being abusive.
James
What an amazing comment. Withdrawal from the Single Market is consistent with everything that Theresa has said since 24 June. It is also totally consistent with the Leave vote.
Who is going to defeat the Tories at the next UK election? Labour? Don’t make me laugh.
I must be from the same planet as John and Glenn because I was also pleased with the PM’s speech. More than pleased, relieved that this country has a strong, articulate intelligent leader with clear vision as we trigger Article 50, enter negotiations with 27 other countries and prepare to exit the EU.
@Manfarang
Exactly what does that have to do with what Senseco said or implied about educated people and my comments back to him?
And what exactly do you mean by Hanker back to a past age? What age would you be talking about here?
Oh dear. This thread has turned very unpleasant very quickly.
Debates on this site are usually very well-mannered even when people have profound disagreements, so it is disappointing to see off-topic personal abuse on here.
I voted to remain in the EU despite a dismally negative Remain campaign that kept making me reconsider, and it is depressing to see that Lib Dems might not have learnt from the failure of that approach.
What is Theresa May’s brexit master plan for Gibraltar, s.v.p?