Way back in 2011, the then Federal Executive created, shall we say, a little light controversy by deciding not to fund any Liberal Democrat campaigns for Police and Crime Commissioner on the grounds that we didn’t support the idea as it concentrated too much power in the hands of one person.
After much discussion, the party did eventually contest 24 out of the 36 contests in England and none in Wales.
The posts are up for election again next May and FE discussed the party’s approach to them at its meeting last Monday. This time it’s very different. The recommendation FE made was that the party should endeavour to fight every seat. The PCC elections mean that the whole of Britain will be voting for something on the same day (there are devolved elections in Scotland, Wales and London as well as local elections as well) and it’s an important test of national opinion.
It’s now a matter for the relevant state parties to decide how they want to approach the elections. They will have to decide how any of the seats to contest and who is eligible to stand. Last time, only approved parliamentary candidates were able to stand. However, there is a view that these are local elections and, as in council elections, it should be up to individual areas to decide eligibility and approval.
It seems to me that the Liberal Democrats have a unique view of policing and crime and it would be a great shame not to give people the chance to vote for our more evidence based, practical and sensible policies.
What do you think?
* Caron Lindsay is Editor of Liberal Democrat Voice and blogs at Caron's Musings. You can find her on Bluesky at caronmlindsay.bsky.social
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36 Comments
I think the FE needs to realise the impact of trying to find 5k as a deposit, which will likely be lost & the problems with getting multiple constituency parties to work together on getting candidates and a campaign team as most pcc areas cover around 5 MP constituencies
what do I think?
I think the sooner we replace the FE with something that is representative of the party across the whole of the country, that is more in tune with what really happens among members, supporters and activists and that we level their Ivory Tower the better.
That’s what I think.
The FE is right. These are significant elections, for posts wielding powers that we have a lot to say about, held at the same time as local elections in most places. Choosing not to stand would be difficult to justify for a political party.
Having said that if the FE got this wrong, I would not offer them any abuse for it.
I think that if we stand it should be under the label “Liberal Democrats – Abolish Police Commissioners”.
I’d rather we spent the £5k on winnable campaigns which would make a difference locally. I can think of lots better than Police Commissioner elections.
Always stand a candidate. End of.
Not only should we stand candidates for the Police and Crime Commissioners we should campaign on an overtly Liberal manifesto highlighting our policies of reducing the prison population, reforming the drug laws and treating sex workers in a completely different way. Not only are these good policies they will contrast well with the authoritarian parties that will also be standing.
The decision should be taken by the regional executive, or a single lower body if there is one, except in London where the mayor is charged with the role.
Of course the Federal Executive should be supporting the fighting of every election as the constitution calls for. It is also good that candidates don’t have to be on the approved parliamentary candidate lists. It is a shame that no national appeal for the funding of them (both deposits and campaigns) was agreed at the same time. I think in the run up to the 1994 Euro elections (which had constituencies of 5 or so local parties) there was a national fund raising campaign as well as local ones.
If we need £5,000 for each one and there are 36 of them, then we need £180,000 just to field a candidate in each one, before the costs of campaigning.
I think we should be standing in these, but I think we need to ensure we have a distinct liberal message to put forward in the elections, not just echoing the ‘tough on crime’ messages of the other parties. We could follow the example of Durham’s PCC in decriminalising cannabis, or use it as a platform for a civil liberties message. As we look like being stuck with PCCs for the foreseeable future, we should be leading the debate on what they’re for, and too many of the current crop seem to see their job as being a spokesperson for the police, not a challenge to them.
Many people angrily objected to the Tories pushing this through, although Liberal Democrat MPs were able to delay introduction by six months, hence the first elections were in November instead of May,
In Kent an independent Police and Crime Commissioner was elected, which must be preferable to a Tory or Labour one.
The incumbent needs to hone her presentational skills, but would a career politician with better presentational skills do better? Would a career politician of any party be trusted as independent by an increasingly cynical public? As George Osborne and Theresa May make substantial cuts to budgets what qualities are required for their local scapegoats? The alternative is to campaign for abolition.
Try asking your local Police and Crime Commissioner a question about almost anything. His/her reply is likely to be that “It is an operational matter” to be decided by, or under the authority of, the Chief Constable.
Silly me, there is, of course, a substantial salary.
@Barry: The issue of deposits was part and parcel of the FE’s thinking, so don’t think that it isn’t being considered.
@jonathan webber: I hope you will be contributing to the Governance Review which is currently underway.
@Nick Barlow – I think you are bang on here. I think it’s important to have some consistent themes across the country but that the local dimension is critical too – what’s best in one area might not be what’s best in another. Mind you, I’m Scottish so it’s technically none of my business.
@Nick Barlow
“We could follow the example of Durham’s PCC in decriminalising cannabis, …”
I don’t understand that. Whether to effectively “decriminalise” cannabis or not is an operational matter and, as such, it is outside any PCC’s remit.
Always stand a candidate. End of.
Tim Hill 26th Jul ’15 – 11:47pm Federal funding may be needed for PCC elelctions, if the money comes from donors via federal fundraising, but a lot of federal fundraising came from local sources, who might just be better at deciding how to spend their money. Therefore whether to stand a candidate should be decided as locally as possible. In the case of PCCs we should campaign for abolition of any PCCs who are incompetent, useless or party hacks. Use the money for something else, preferably something more useful.
I was thinking on my comment, and expanded it into a longer blog post: http://www.nickbarlow.com/blog/?p=4571
I hope that our Federal Executive’s reported decision will not compel us to put up candidates against existing Independent PCCs – most obviously Winston Roddick, PCC for North Wales – if their policies and their approach to their responsibilities are acceptable to Liberal Democrats locally.
I strongly supported this decision at Federal Executive – we are a political party and we have a strong liberal case to put on crime and policing and also related issues. If we don’t, who will?
This election will also be the first one in which we can involve our new members in many parts of England and we need to think through how run campaigns that make effective use of limited resources but which do encourage everyone to take part.
Picking up the point about lost deposits – we didn’t lose a single deposit last time, and that was after a pretty shambolic and last minute campaign and a stand alone Autumn election under the coalition. Yes, the cash has to be found, but we shouldn’t approach this round of elections with the expectation that we are going to lose lots of deposits.
We now need to crack on with candidate selections.
@simon shaw.
As a strong advocate of cannabis legalisation you are correct. It is the job of the police to enforce the law, not make it. It’s also dangerous to have a police force that feels it can force a change in the law upon the government.
Nevertheless I can’t feel sorry in the case that Durham police have done this, because the law against cannabis is immoral and unjust and none of the mainstream parties con/lab/lib/snp want to change it.
I guess this is what happens when a police commissioner is elected rather than appointed, they feel more empowered to challenge the policy of a Home Secretary and the political establishment?
I’m torn. I think it’s going to cost an absolute fortune to get a tiny amount of votes and be ignored by the media in doing so. We don’t stand much of a chance.
On the other hand, we have to show that we’re a National party, and to do that we have to contest every seat.
Difficult, difficult. I know Tim’s set on the latter, though.
As a former chairman of Essex Police Authority, and having considered what PCC.s were supposed to do, I feel that the case for their existence is still unproven. Equally if there are to be elected “Super mayors” the PCC function will probably be be subsumed ( as in London ) into the Mayor’s remit. If that is so, the function will cease to be a specific to unique elected post, for Mayors will simply appoint “their” equivalent of a PCC. In Essex we have a notionally Tory PCC, elected on less than 5% of the electorate, who has created a structure costing £1.4 million p.a.to support his functions and duty. This includes a “Deputy PCC” (whatever that is – but like a deputy councillor I suppose) a CEO, and a workforce of 11 more. We now, in Essex, have more elected Councillors (Parish/Town?District/Borough?Count y and Unitary) than uniformed Police Officers. I detect little public enthusiasm or understanding for PCC”s and really think they serve no purpose and we are better served abolishing this neo-USA “Commissioner” post.
The Federal Committee wishes us all to nominate PCC candidates and knows the cost of deposits (which are likely to lose in most cases) and of campaigning. How does it square these circles? Does it have a nest-egg of unspent money to dish out to 40 campaigns? The constitution rightly encourages the fighting of campaigns, but that was written before PCCs were (stupidly, in my view) invented. It is more important, I should think, to gird our loins for the possibility of a Europe referendum as early as next spring. And I hope that we shall have something more sophisticated to offer than ‘We are the party of IN’.
The cost of deposit, and given the process of candidate selection the last GE was shocking you have to question this proposition. Also you have to question the effectiveness of the position itself. It was all rammed through using outdated Tory policy. The role of technology in assignment and placement of resources in the police force is now far far more advanced making this role practically redundant. I would rather the whole party used this logic to abstain from putting candidates forward, and leave the police with their technology to do there job! Rather than propping up a redundant level of ‘democracy’ that gives parties with shed loads of cash like the Tories another clean sweep!!!!!
The PCCs don’t work, they cost money, and based on turnout I think you’ll find the public don’t give a flying rats backside. The Tories set the rules of the game when they pushed this through and if we want to win we need to change the rules and fight our own way by our own rules. By being the scrappy insurgents that we once were. Innovative ‘thinking out of the box’ campaigning is the only way we’ll get the rightful publicity that our well thought out ideas deserve, a scatter gun approach will simply not work any more.
Agree with Hugh p ” hope that our Federal Executive’s reported decision will not compel us to put up candidates against existing Independent PCCs – most obviously Winston Roddick, PCC for North Wales – if their policies and their approach to their responsibilities are acceptable to Liberal Democrats locally.”
The Federal Executive have got it wrong. It is usually the Tories who campaign against something (such as the NHS) and then accept it, after implementation, and despite unchanged opinions.
We should not do that. The MPs were right to oppose the creation of this expensive and useless layer of scapegoats.
The FE should look at this again. As Tim Farron has said many times, in the leadership election and previously, this is a democratic party, it is not a dictatrship of the leader, which would also be illiberal.
Richard Boyd speaks with a depth of understanding, there is more to this than just contesting elections.
The Federal Executive should read “The strange death of Liberal England”.
One of the things that happened to what had been the largest party was that repeated, and arguably unnecessary elections, cost the political parties money which the Tories could afford, even at the risk of losing power, and which other parties could not.
Another factor was having two former Prime Ministers.
richard rowles is right.
Another factor is the budget cuts being put through by George Osborne and Theresa May which may cause police forces to share resources across boundaries, thereby making the constituencies of PCCs outdated
This is already happening to local government.
If we did not lose any deposits last time that can only because we only stood in more promising places. And where we lose the deposit will also be the places where we have no money, so the Federal Party is going to have to guarantee the deposits. But we are probably only at risk of losing 10-20 deposits, not 41. The risk increases if more parties stand. Last time there were only 24 UKIP candidates and 1 Green…
Being realistic there are also more important elections for us going on at the same time, so most local parties are not going to want to divert many resources into the police commissioners.
We do have to be a bit careful about candidate selection. The Press love stories about “looney” potential police commissioners. I think that at the least people should have local council experience if they are not on the central candidate list (there are plenty of ex-councillors, after all, not to mention current ones!)
Last time 11 independents got in out of 41… If they have done a good job and have a Liberal approach I would suggest not standing against them. If not then we should…
I cannot think for one moment what reason, purpose or merit there is in random members of any political party discuss what is essentially a strategic political matter on a public forum. Could someone enlighten me?
Tony Dawson; because there is zero chance of this effecting policy, some candidates already selected. FE calling for candidates. Sad but true.
PCC elections will happen, whether we like it or not. So as with elected mayors we need to support LD candidates with LD policies.
However the qualities needed for a PCC differ from those for a PPC. The local parties within each Police area need to select appropriate local candidates who can not only publicise LD policies but also perform well in the role if elected.
Mayor Dorothy has shown the way.
I’m with Tony Hill. One simple clear message that voters will understand and agree with. Abolish the post! If we got enough people elected, & I think we might, that would be a clear mandate to go to Government with. I do not feel people should go through the M.P selection process. A simple regional approval approval process.
If the principle of PCCs was wrong five years ago it is still wrong today and we have seen instances where our warnings have been justified. We should NOT stand on principle.
“It seems to me that the Liberal Democrats have a unique view of policing and crime”
Unfortunately though we often say this it has very often not been true in practice, at both local Council and Parliamentary level. The party’s breaches of consensus have been the exception and not the rule. Too often (Nick) the Liberal Democrats tasked with holding the police to account have simply done the same as the others. Though very critical of Police Authorities, I agree with Richard Boyd on the PCC role. While I wouldn’t leave the police unsupervised, Richard Rowles is right that we should clearly oppose this Tory policy championed by a now UKIPPER. As I stood as an Independent I might obviously support Andrew that standing against Independents who have been good will backfire. I think stepping down in favour of any such candidates is better than Peter Scorer’s otherwise powerful message.
“it would be a great shame not to give people the chance to vote for our more evidence based, practical and sensible policies”. I agree that there should be more evidence based, practical and sensible policies and we stand best chance of getting them by backing the best candidate who is likely to be an independent, who has a much better chance of winning and save the Liberal Democrats losing many of their deposits. I agree with Barry and Tpfkar, and otherwise like Tony Hill’s suggestion as a fall back. “I’d rather we spent the £5k on winnable campaigns which would make a difference locally.” Quite right ‘Tpfkar’.
The always stand a candidate arguments of Joe and Maurice and others suggests that the best answer is always a party politician and I think after many years in party politics that there are times when that is patently not the case.
The Federal Executive, in its original decision last time, was actually (on that occasion, Jonathan) more in tune with public opinion than the mindless local activism wing of the party. I’d misremembered that the Party had lost many of its deposits – correct ‘Liberal Neil’, it didn’t but half a dozen got only 7% of the vote (one only 6%). I think introducing enthusiastic new members to being annihilated in elections is a woeful strategy, and I speak as one who was still an enthusiastic relatively new member in the European Elections in 1989.
That’s politics, Tony Dawson, at least if we’re not in the Labour Party.