Many Labour members are thinking of resigning. I’m sure we would love them to join us. How can we encourage them without being too pushy?
If you are a social democrat outside the Liberal Democrats, whether in the Labour party or not, if there are ways the Liberal Democrats could make it easier for you to switch to us let us know in the comments below.
Here are a few of my thoughts.
Don’t forget we lost too. Moderate members of the Labour party may have lost the leadership battle for their party, but we’ve lost most of our MPs. Let’s acknowledge these twin disasters for the centre-left, and talk about how we can move forward.
Don’t call them authoritarians. The rule of law is central to Liberal Democracy, so a lot of anarchists call us authoritarians. If you don’t like that, don’t use the term on others. As a party we have a range of opinions on how to balance liberty and security. Social Democrats are the same.
Don’t call them Liberals. If they prefer to be called social democrats, respect that. If they join they’ll soon discover they are also Liberal Democrats.
Don’t tell them to resign. Many in the Labour party will have been members for years. Perhaps their friends and family have always supported Labour. This has happened incredibly fast, and it will take time to decide how to respond. We need to respect that and respect them. At this stage they need to know they’ll be welcome, but also that we understand if they feel they have to stay and fight.
Those are just my thoughts. I’ll be interested to read what others think.
The Social Democrat Group aim to reach out to social democrats beyond the party. If you would like to help, do email us, fill in the form here, or visit our facebook page.
* George Kendall is the acting chair of the Social Democrat Group. He writes in a personal capacity.
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One easy thing we can all do is hang out on Labour sites & sometimes comment, making clear that you are a Libdem. I would reccomend Labour List – the rough equivalent of LDV & Labour Uncut, a site for Labour Centrists.
George,perhaps you could write a similar piece regarding ‘moderate’ (whatever that means) members of the Conservative party with a view to joining us?
After all, Corbyn is against, for instance, the ‘austerity measures’ falling on those least able to pay their way: he is against the £Billions for Trident; he is also against the Syrian bombing campaign; He is in favour of public ownership of railways and essential services…
These values coincide with mine and, I imagine, many other LibDems…..
If we are talking about Labour MPs, there isn’t a single one that I can think of who both shares the values of most Liberal Democrats and who is miss-named as a “moderate”….
Any MP or Councillor thinking of jumping ship will look at the arithmetic and quickly see that its a non starter. Sadly the Lib Dems have been so deeply damaged after the Election battering that no career minded Labour person will join up.
Corbyn is a supporter of terrorists and Islamists, who takes the knee-jerk anti-British, anti-western, anti-Israel posture. Those values are not shared by any liberal, and should not be shared by anyone in the Lib Dems, and for that reason I would prefer to welcome people from Labour who oppose that tendency in the Labour party.
Andrew Lansley’s successot as MP for South Cambridgeshire made a good maiden speech in October and was interviewed on the Sunday Politics on 6/12/2015.
http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/South-Cambridgeshire-general-election-2015/story-26457492-detail/story.html
Her pluralist views are very acceptable, but have the Tory whips become more moderate? or are they merely being tolerant of a new MP? Former whips Edward Heath and John Major have writen their memoirs. Cynical journalists and MPs of all parties had their commentaries confirmed, in that the task for a back-bench MP on a committee was to toe the party line, whereas Heidi Allen decided to do the job on the timing of tax credit payments. She was right, the Lords forced the Chancellor to think again and G.O. has done so. Heidi Allen told the Sunday Politics that she had not received any comments from the Chancellor. Other Tory MPs had told her that she was right, but they did not want to say so publicy. On TV he admitted to being naive, but another protection is that there are prominent Tory MPs, such as David Davis, who have expressed similar views publicly.
The issue will come round again with Universal Credit.
Saying horrible things about Corbyn wont work either. Oldham showed that the voters had no problem with him. The Lib Dems sadly got a few per cent and barely any coverage. Attacking Corbyn with such gusto aint gonna work.
George Kendall | Mon 7th December 2015 – 10:47 am We should also remember the Shadow Cabinet that the incoming Labour government had in 1997, consisting of MPs elected in 1992 or earlier. They had been elected by Labour MPs in opposition and mostly got the ministerial posts they had been shadowing. If they were unsuccessful a ruthless Prime Minister forced them out, for instance, the Health Minister Frank Dobson, a London MP, was pressurised into standing for London Mayor, but lost to an Independent, Ken Livingstone.
After the 2010 general election Labour’s rather special electoral system produced Ed Milliband as leader, in opposition. He wanted to appoint Labour’s Shadow Cabinet and was allowed to do so. The only Labour MP who opposed this publicly was a backbencher called Jeremy Corbyn. Maybe he was a small c conservative in Labour politics, or maybe he thought that Ed Milliband would appoint newer and younger MPs than himself. After the 2015 Labour leadership election JC cannot be said to lack ambition. Therefore will JC use the powers he inherited from Ed Milliband to remake Labour’s Shadow Cabinet? or will he return to what he previously announced he believed and have the Shadow Cabinet elected by Labour MPs while in opposition?
Very good article by George we have had former members and supporters of the Labour party join us in the past ,its been a tough thing for them to do and almost like leaving a religious cult they have required a good deal of support some were very damaged and found our open debate discussions hard hard to cope with ,some required almost detoxification and rehabilitation from the hurt that they had endured at the hands of their former party .But with care a convert can become a very active and useful member of your constituency be open and welcoming explain how we work and be inclusive moving into any new home has to be recognised a stressful process for the participant but worth the effort if we want to see liberal democracy flourish in Great Britain .
Silvio, I happen to agree that attacking Corbyn with too much gusto isn’t usually going to work terribly well for us (I think it’ll work for the Tories though), but I don’t think we can say that Oldham proved voters had ‘no problem with him’. Remember that the main attacks on Corbyn going in that campaign were UKIP’s pseudo-patriotic nonsense.
I think a strong Tory attack line on Corbyn will be run out at any election where the Tories see Labour as a threat, but the risk for us of attacking him (which we well may want / need to do — on certain points) will be being seen as Tory parrots.
The coalition between the Tories and the LibDems is just too recent a memory for most Labour members/voters, it will take a long time to attract them. I think many in the Labour party hope Corbyn will last a couple of years at best and then get kicked out for a leader like David Milliband or Hilary Benn. I doubt many – if any – would have any interest in joining the LibDems.
Matt, I get your point but the comment above yours from Neil Sandison ccomes across as patronising and a little arrogant. The Lib Dems need to stop the sniggering at Labour criticise yes but mocking is a no no. The party is in a battle for its very survival and winding up Labour supporters who would ‘lend’ their vote is the wrong move.
George Kendell talks good sense, excellent post. I as a youth was in Labour , in my forties now , as I have messaged to George , I consider myself a born again Liberal. Actually I have never not been a Liberal . Its defining it ones self . Get people to read President kennedy on this or google or go onto you tube , as ,President Kennedy Liberal Speech. It lets anyone of the centre or centre left into Liberalism. And as another non uk party political example , and therefore one people can see as objectively appreciated , the Democratic Party of Italy , their most recent , main , and it now appears, lasting centre left party , is officially a social democrat party, it is in Progressive Alliance not Liberal International , but contains a Liberal grouping within it linked to Liberal International. Much as George is doing here in reverse if you like . In todays politics more than ever these are compatible philosophies.
David Howarth’s chapter in ‘Reinventing the State’ is a primer on social liberalism (as we, rather than the rest of the world, use the term). I asked of it at the time: what is the difference between this social liberalism, and social democracy? And what is wrong with social democracy from this point of view? I’ve not had a good answer to either question.
Hazarding a guess, I’d say the big philosophical difference I would have with most Social Democrats in Labour is that I think socialism is a very bad idea, and they seem to think that it is at worst some impossible ideal, and that it is reasonable to be in the same party as a load of socialists.
Joe mentions , social Liberalism , as we rather than the rest of the world would regard it . I think it is Liberalism as a stand alone phrase that is broad enough to be interpreted in different ways. And very misinterpreted . Social Liberalism , should , amongst Liberals , be universally appreciated as what it is. The Kennedy speech , I allude to above is terrific and forgotten . Spread the word .
Joe Otten – Perhaps the Social Democrats in Labour accept the reality that they need to be a very broad church to gather enough support to beat the Tories. Without power you don’t get much done.
I’m not sure why social democrats would want to join up with liberalism, when it’s in obvious decline? In fact there is nowhere on the planet where liberalism is in the ascendancy. And there is a good reason for that.
I think there is a clear correlation between the discovery and usage of hydrocarbons and the rise of liberalism [and social democracy]. Before fossil fuels, life was brutish and anything but,.. liberal. Fossil fuel gave humanity the ‘gift’, of a century and a half of ‘plenty’. The very welcome ideas of sharing, of greater equality, and liberalism were much easier to achieve [politically], when there are plenty of resources to go around. But as global resources dwindle, and moreover, due to growing population, *resources per capita* decrease, liberalism will slowly get ditched accordingly.
I feel that history will see the birth and death of liberalism, as a temporary ‘gift’, that lived during the ‘abundance window’, afforded to us by150 years of hydrocarbon. Probably not what you want to hear, but there is evidence all around if you’re willing to look.
indigo 7th Dec ’15 – 3:01pm Sunshine remains plentiful. humans may have too much of it, but machines can cope. There is scope for North African solar to be connected to western european markets by interconnectors through Spain. Ed Davey pointed out that we would need co-operation from france, so, ask them nicely.
malc 7th Dec ’15 – 1:37pm These things can take a while and, of course, Oldham as an indicator is only relevant to seats strongly held by Labour.
Those trying to get to Jeremy Corbyn may try to use his brother, as happened to John Major, but the brother might be wise to avoid publicity. “Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt”.
Alex Macfie 7th Dec ’15 – 12:28pm……………………Corbyn is a supporter of terrorists and Islamists, who takes the knee-jerk anti-British, anti-western, anti-Israel posture. Those values are not shared by any liberal, and should not be shared by anyone in the Lib Dems, and for that reason I would prefer to welcome people from Labour who oppose that tendency in the Labour party………………………
Well, a very Daily Mail description of Corbyn….Has he NO shared values with LibDems?…
BTW…If we are looking for all new members to be pro-British, pro-Israel, etc. I think we’d best look at UKIP/BNP, after all, I’m sure that’s their ‘territory’….
You’ve raised a really interesting issue, George. Thanks. I’m a social democrat who was once in the SDP but who’s outside the LibDems, and currently just about still in Labour (though it’s hard to imagine I can possibly stay for long).
I think you’ll attract some centrists who used to vote Labour. But there are some serious barriers to getting others to vote LibDem (other than tactially) or join you.
The main problem is that it’s pretty obvious to most external social democrats that you can’t join the LibDems and be safe from Corbynism. The LibDem versious really is kinder and gentler, but still, there are lot of LibDems who’d love a big conference vote forcing Tim Farron to oppose Trident. It was very visible in Bournemouth. And your actual policies—I think you back renewal but with fewer submarines—are very obvious fudges to keep those people onside. So it’s situation yellow alert Corbybnismo.
I also think for many social democrats, there’s soemthing missing from the LibDems, which is a serious interest in mainstream social and economic issues: I mean macroeconomics, work, economic equality and so on. LibDems seem to be interested in personal, identify and freedom issues like drugs, web privacy etc.., but much less interested in, for instance, wages. Indeed to the extent that they are interested, they seem to be on the wrong side: witness the changes made to employment rights and employment tribunals by Vince Cable. So, there’s a hole.
Finally, this last one may just be me, but LibDems seem obsessed with things constitutional. Any social problem seems to have its answer in huge constitutional reform for the LibDems, which frankly seems unreal. It’s as though LibDems want to think about abstract things, not the real world.
Finally, yes, that feeling many LibDems have that Labour people are “authoritarian” is matched by a feeling that the LibDems are a bit “libertarian”. You do seem to care much more about whether your DNA might be on a database somewhere than about stopping violent murders.
No doubt I’ll have offended some, but I’m just trying to be honest about the unattractions of the LibDems.
This is the sort of bonkers, disgraceful comment I expect to see on a Stop the War or Momentum website. If many LibDems think support for Israel is in itself racist (which the reference to the BNP surely implies) then that’s another reason not to support you. You have of course had problems with Jenny Tonge and David Ward.
As for the suggestion that being pro-British is racist, it’s hard to know what to say, frankly.
Many ex SDP and moderate Labour are not economically liberal and their entry into the Lib Dems would create a problem.
Lib Dems are economically liberal as well as socially liberal.
Those who are only socially liberal should remain socialists and not try to infiltrate and convert the Lib Dem party to socialism.
Carl Gardner 7th Dec ’15 – 4:48pm………………If we are looking for all new members to be pro-British, pro-Israel, etc. I think we’d best look at UKIP/BNP, after all, I’m sure that’s their ‘territory’…………This is the sort of bonkers, disgraceful comment I expect to see on a Stop the War or Momentum website. If many LibDems think support for Israel is in itself racist (which the reference to the BNP surely implies) then that’s another reason not to support you. You have of course had problems with Jenny Tonge and David Ward…………..As for the suggestion that being pro-British is racist, it’s hard to know what to say, frankly……………
What is disgraceful is you ignoring the first part of my post and taking me to task for my throwaway comment…
I was responding to a comment that Corbyn is only for “terrorists and Islamists, who takes the knee-jerk anti-British, anti-western, anti-Israel posture”…..
There. are degrees of ‘terrorists’ (after all Mandela was a terrorist to the same Tories who ‘fawned at his funeral’) There are limits to being pro-Israel, pro-British, pro-Western….Gaza, extraordinary rendition, Iraq, etc. are examples of why simplistic remarks like Alex Macfee’s need to be challenged…..
indigo 7th Dec ’15 – 3:01pm
“In fact there is nowhere on the planet where liberalism is in the ascendancy. ”
Except that the Liberal Party just won a general election in Canada
@Carl Gardner
Thanks Carl. I was hoping you’d reply. You raise a very important point, and it’s one we in the Lib Dems need to grapple with as well. Some in my party wouldn’t want you to join, because they think that if enough of you do, they’ll never be able to defeat the leadership over Trident. Similar or other similar issues. It’s a genuine issue. and probably one we should be open about.
For myself, the reason I prefer not to call myself Liberal (but am happy to be called Lib Dem), is that, while I think liberty is important, I don’t agree with the old Liberal constitution that “in all spheres it sets freedom first”. I must prefer the more nuanced Lib Dem constitution (that came about as a result of the merger with the SDP).
Regarding constitutional issues, I think our obsession may be less than you think. However, when it comes to electoral reform, it’s one I share.
In my opinion, the main reason why social democrats have been unable to make Labour into a proper social democrat party is because the electoral system has prevented a socialist party from getting any representation. If a viable socialist party had existed, Corbyn and McDonnell would have left long ago, and this disaster would never have happened.
And thank you for your honesty. It’s really helpful 🙂
Re: “This is the sort of disgraceful comment I expect to see on a Stop the War or Momentum website”
Don’t worry. That’s the internet. Over the last five years I’ve spoken to vast numbers of party members, and that sort of attitude would be rejected by the vast vast majority of ordinary party members.
In my opinion, if Corbyn does fully take over Labour (as seems inevitable to me), Jenny Tonge won’t be the last to defect to Corbyn’s party. I don’t wish for anyone to leave the party. But I think it’s very unlikely that we will become a magnet for those who make disparaging remarks about anyone who is patriotic. And therefore we should be a pretty safe refuge for those who want to escape Corbynism.
Thanks for all the comments guys. Too many to answer them all.
@expats
I did write an piece on those lines a while ago here: http://ldv.org.uk/25928 You’re welcome to share it via facebook and twitter, or borrow some of my arguments if you’re going to write a similar pitch for moderate Tories to join us.
But perhaps that’s not what your comment was really trying to say…
@James
I disagree. It’s easy to judge and dismiss people from a distance. I don’t know any Labour MPs well – something I’d like to remedy. But I’m sure there are some who would fit into our party very well. As for non-MPs, I didn’t set up Social Democrat Group alone. Rob Jackson was a long-term Labour member, and joined us this July. He is helping set it up with me.
https://www.facebook.com/SocialDemocratGroup/posts/1689799921266152
@Silvio
We’ll see. I suspect there are many many moderates in the Labour party who are people of deep principle. Personnally, I’d love it if these people joined us.
@Richard Underhill
Yes, I was really struck when Heidi Allen said that looking out for the underprivileged was why she went into politics. I thought, “This woman’s in the wrong party.”
@Silvio
I think we need to avoid ad hominem attacks, but it’s perfectly reasonable to challenge Corbyn on things he has said in the past, and over the people he has chosen to appoint.
@Richard Underhill
It is bizarre, isn’t it? The most rebellious MP in the Labour party is now trying to force MPs to confirm to his views.
@Neil Sandison
I think it probably depends on the local party they were in. I’m sure there are some Labour parties that are perfectly reasonable places, and others … less so.
@Matt (Bristol)
I agree. I think the Tories are holding their fire. But if Corbyn is still in place in 2020, they will utterly pulverise him.
@malc
I honestly don’t know how big a problem the coalition will be. It’s clearly not been an insurmountable problem for some, because we’ve had a number of Labour members join us since May.
I suspect that, as more horrors from the Tories emerge over the next couple of years, Labour people will start to wonder if maybe the coalition wasn’t so terrible after all. But time will tell.
@Silvio
I completely agree that we need to be respectful to Labour people. It’s the main reason I wrote this article.
@Lorenzo “lets anyone of the centre or centre left into Liberalism”
Indeed. But if a Liberal prefers to call themselves a Social Democrat, as long as they join the party, we should all be happy.
@Joe Otten
I suspect there’s a few in Labour at present who are thinking socialism is a very bad idea indeed!
@indigo
As Peter points out, the Liberal victory in Canada doesn’t seem to fit with your hypothesis. Or are you arguing that Liberalism can only survive in a resource-rich country?
@expats
I have no way to be certain of what Corbyn’s and McDonnells policies really are. But my suspicion is that they believe what they were saying a few years ago. And that’s socialism, not social democracy at all.
George Kendall 7th Dec ’15 – 6:16pm……………………@expats………………I did write an piece on those lines a while ago here: http://ldv.org.uk/25928 You’re welcome to share it via facebook and twitter, or borrow some of my arguments if you’re going to write a similar pitch for moderate Tories to join us……………….But perhaps that’s not what your comment was really trying to say…
GK, Thanks for that, If I had read it, I’ve forgotten;after all it was more than four years ago….My point was, that to keep repeating the ‘Daily Mail’ views of Corbyn is not the whole picture…As you predicted, an unfettered Tory party are still using ‘austerity’ to force through idealogical attacks on public services….Your Nov 2011 thread would resonate, even more, in today’s UK…
With respect Mr Kendall, aren’t you just fishing in the same old pools?
What about those of us who are not and have never been in any political party? The self-professed politically engaged do seem to have picked up a habit of forgetting us or just dismissing us.
Why not try talking to us too – we may not agree – but we aren’t all dumb!
As one or two have said above, they have found out they have been Liberals all along. IMO we must all argue and explain Liberalism to everyone . A set of bold Liberal Principles & Policies would be a start, as it seems to me the Lib Dems become blander the more successful (in the past) they are…….. or is it just me?
I think some people here have wilfully misinterpreted my position. I was specifically attacking the knee-jerk attitude of trendy lefties like Corbyn that the West/Britain/Israel is always wrong, regardless of the circumstances, not saying that they were always right. expats: please tell me you’re joking when you say that the BNP are pro-Israel. Its ideology is anti-semitic, a sentiment it shares with radical Islamists (of course, the BNP also shares with Islamists a hatred of free and civil society: the Paris attacks are exactly the sort of thing a far-right terrorist would have done) . To the extent that it is “pro-British”, the Britain it seeks to create is not one that I could ever live in, and anyway BNP types would have preferred the Nazis to have won WW2 (and so would Islamists and some pro-Palestine extremists). I support the right of Israel to exist, but this does NOT mean that I support everything that the government of Israel does; in fact I oppose the present Israeli government and if I were Israeli I would support the opposition bloc, which includes a liberal party.
My point was to highlight how the trendy lefties currently in charge of Labour tend to be useful idiots of radical Islamists and other anti-British extremists. And I thought maybe there is some mileage in portraying the Lib Dems as a radical but RESPONSIBLE left-liberal opposition to the Tories. But it seems that this position is too open to deliberate misinterpretation by anyone who wants to portray opposition to infantile trendy-leftism as a far-right position.
Carl , well done on anti racist criticism . On law and order do not agree with the stereotype. Iam a Liberal Democrat absolutely motivated by looking out for the underdog. Protection of the victim is married for me with staunch belief in the rule of law . Power , excercised by a bully , is a Liberal enemy . Victimless crimes are one thing . Crimes by the wicked against the vulnerable should infuriate any true Liberal . If not they do not belong in a mainstream party.
Alex Macfie “Corbyn is a supporter of terrorists and Islamists”. What utter nonsense. He is critic of Israeli Govt policy and I support his comments. All I long for is peace in the Middle East – that does not make me a terrorist sympathiser.
As for ‘trendy’ lefties – oh my goodness what is this supposed to mean? Aren’t their trendy LibDems and even Tories? Are you judging them by their hairstyle or if they live in Hampstead etc etc. Can we just go back to grown up politics and debates over policy?
@Little Jackie Paper
I know how you feel, LJP. When I joined the SDP in 1981, I came from no party, but everyone kept describing the SDP as a party of former Labour members. In fact, most SDP members had never been a member of any party.
You are, of course, very welcome to join the mailing list of the Social Democrat Group. As we say: “We exist to celebrate and develop our social democrat heritage, and to reach out to social democrats beyond the party.” (No mention of Labour there)
(I’m afraid we’re restricting full membership to party members, but that’s eaily fixed … http://www.libdems.org.uk/join )
As a group, we aren’t all social democrats. Anyone who doesn’t think of themselves as a social democrat, but agrees with our aims is welcome, and wouldn’t be the first to join.
I know some people dislike the preamble to our constitution, but for myself, I love it. Especially the first paragraph, and the words: “we seek to balance the fundamental values of liberty, equality and community, and in which no one shall be enslaved by poverty, ignorance or conformity.”
http://www.libdems.org.uk/constitution
Some will call that bland. I call it nuanced.
@Dave Orbison
Personally, I’m very worried by some of the remarks of Corbyn and McDonnell, but even more by the way they’re responding now. If you read what they say carefully, they don’t disassociate themselves from what they said in the past. They use the same sort of word games that Gerry Adams used when asked to condemn the violence of the IRA.
@ George Kendall
“As Peter points out, the Liberal victory in Canada doesn’t seem to fit with your hypothesis. Or are you arguing that Liberalism can only survive in a resource-rich country?”
No. I’m arguing that liberalism can only exist in a *per capita* resource rich planet. And given that the per capita world population is increasing exponentially, but planetary resources are conversely, decreasing annually, then it follows that liberalism is the gift of a 150 year hydrocarbon *indulgence* that humanity will reflect upon fondly as it disappears from our sight, as more and more population numbers clamour for less and less, available global resources. I can’t dress this up for you,..It won’t be pretty.
And,.. let’s see just how liberal those Liberal Canadians turn out to be? After all, were there not, self proclaimed Social Democrats in Germany, 75 years ago? So please let’s not get fooled by the name over the door.
Dave Orbison: No, Corbyn is not just a ” critic of Israeli Govt policy”, he approaches everything from the point ofr view that Israel is always the party at fault, regardless of the facts of the situation. At bottom I think he prefers Israel to have a right-wing government as it does now, as this encourages further Palestinian extremism which will hopefully produce the outcome that he prefers , namely the elimination of the state of Israel. The last thing he and his acolytes want is a peaceful solution brokered by people who genuinely want compromise and elimination of extremists. I want peace in the Middle East, and this means approaching the issue from a neutral perspective that accepts that there is fault on both sides, and that the main obstacle to peace is extremism on both sides. Not the one-sided attitude of the Corbynistas.
I refer to “trendy lefties” not because they are especially fashionable, but because it is (or anyway was) a commonplace phrase used to describe the infantile posturing characteristic of Corbyn’s sort of left-winger, where positions are taken mostly from the point of view of whether they seem right-on, rather than out of any genuine political analysis. Hence, for instance, the knee-jerk anti-British posturing, and pointless acts like declaring a council a “nuclear-free zone”.
George, did you see my comments at 2 . 06, thought they might be of interest. Would really l i ke to have people unfamiliar with that jfk speech , hear that. Are you welcoming members who are two thirds Liberal, one third , social democrat? Would be keen to liase , George .
P. S. Do share feedback how the social democrat group is going down with our members .
Alex Macfie rather than fantasise about the position you wish to ascribe to Corbyn wouldn’t it be more sensible and rational to focus on specific polices that he currently advocates rather than fictional demons. In his speech re Syria he condemened antiSemitism as well as other hate crimes. I can’t see how your personal attacks do anything to make the LibDems more attractive. But if you think parroting The Sun is reasonable that’s up to you. Personally I think it deminishes any argument you may have assuming you have one beyond your obvious loathing for this politician. K
On the fundamental question of why Labour MPs should want to defect to us, the first thing to grasp is that Momentum want them out, that is part of the plan. They are in no hurry because the boundary changes are going to mean all MPs coming up for reselection anyway, probably around 2018, perfect timing for the Left as alot of moderate/centrist members will have drifted away by then & the Party machine will be under Left control. Corbyn can afford to be “nice” because Momentum will be doing the dirty work.
Centrist Labour MPs could form another Party, an SDP2, but that means starting from scratch with no oorganisation, no members & little money. It makes more sense to join us. Theres an added advantage that defection is something individual MPs can do; forming a new party requires getting a whole bunch to agree, something Labour centrists have been pretty bad at doing.
For the great majority of Labour MPs who arent Marxists its a choice of jumping ship or waiting to walk the plank.
I presume you mean this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3oY93doosg
JFK was a great speaker, but he was a frail human being like us all. So I’m reluctant to see him as the final word on what Liberalism means.
Internationally, and even in the UK, Liberalism means different things for different people. I prefer our party’s preamble, though of course even that’s not perfect.
As to who we should accept, I’d be inclined to accept anyone who can agree to that preamble, whatever label they use to self-describe.
The reason its such a good explanation in my view is his adding if to it , meaning , if one defines it thus , he s a Liberal. A little as many here or in your new group, with self description.Preamble as yardstick , also very impressive.
Paul Barker – you state that Momentum are behind some grand plan to deselect Labour MPs. As a Momentum supporter I wish to correct you. Your narrative fits with that from the Press and sadly some Labour MP’s intent on rocking the boat but it is not the case. Momentum is about encouraging those who support the Labour Party in taking a different direction and offering an alternative to the Tories. Momentum supports increased party democracy and members having a direct say in policy. A minority of Labour MPs don’t like this. Momentum would prefer for those MPs to take stock, accept the mandate that Jeremy Corbyn has been given and his intention to increase members involvement in policy formulation. If MPs come round then all well and good. If they believe the future is to continually undermine the leader and refuse to accept the democratic will of the party then where that leads is between then and their constituency party. Those MPs have choices and there is no grand plan to get rid of xyz. But if they cannot accept democracy within the party I’m not sure why they would want to stay so surely the issue of deselection is a mute one.
There is surely a need for some conversation at the least among those who, if nothing else, are anti-Tory and worried sick by what George Osborn and NHS Hunt are up to, never mind Ian Duncan Smith. Without Liberal democrats holding them back, they are taking the country severely to the right, and not even sensibly. The idea of George Osborn as Prime Minister in May 2020 is very worrying, and there are only a few short years to head it off.
A few thoughts:
Tim Farron is the ideal leader for trying to tempt both MPs and supporters to switch to us
Everything Tristram Hunt said yesterday was music to my liberal ears – he’d be welcome for one
And yes we should target moderate Tories too; there are some (my criteria: not crazy about Europe; don’t despise the poor!)
Given the terrible level of representation, membership and public support for Lib Dems since 2010, this is not inviting Labour MPs and members to join, it is asking them to take over.
Despite the plea in this article those Labour MPs likely (if any) to defect are absolutely authoritarian., pro-Trident and were against Corbyn attacking the Welfare Cap and Tax Credits. I wish Tim every success in persuading them to join the LibDems. But with their egos and arrogance they will expect to run the Party and tell members which policies you will adopt. If that’s what you want then good luck.
These “Come to the mission” threads keep popping up…..Strange how these ‘moderates’ that should/must join are the same people that, between 2010-15, we didn’t have a good word to say about (and vice-versa)….
I’m sure that with 8 MPs we offer a great opportunity to all the Labour malcontents we keep hearing about, should they choose to ‘defect’, a future LibDem party would be run by the likes of Cooper, Burnham and Kendall…..As for Tristram Hunt; yesterday’s speech was all about reducing inequality; strange that, while Corbyn voted against the Tory Welfare bill, Hunt, together with all the other leadership contenders, bravely abstained..
Be careful what you wish for…
Good post from George Kendall. We need to be ready to welcome in any like-minded members from Labour as their internal war develops. One way to do that is to ensure that people are reminded that part of our political heritage is Social Democratic, not just Liberal.
Paul Barker: “Centrist Labour MPs could form another Party, an SDP2, but that means starting from scratch with no oorganisation, no members & little money. It makes more sense to join us.”
There’s an organisation with some members and lots of money already in place for centrist Labour MPs: Progress. It’s funded by some of the same people who initially funded the SDP and then went to back to Labour under Blair. If we were at 20% in the opinion polls and had 50-60 MPs then it might make sense to join us, but when both are in single figures – and the party image remains tarnished by coalition – then a new party that could appeal to Lib Dem centrists and Tory wets would be much more appealing. Also consider that if more than 8 Labour MPs were to jump ship to us, they’d be back in the same position they were in Labour, with a Parliamentary party that’s at loggerheads with the membership.
A Labour split is possible, but I’m still not convinced it’s likely. If it happens, it’ll be a new party and we’ll have to decide whether we want to compete with it, be subsumed into it, or try and cling on to it.
Nick 8th Dec ’15 – 10:14am ‘Paul Barker: “Centrist Labour MPs could form another Party, an SDP2, ‘
Not SDP2 please, that was the title applied to Dr. Owen’s splinter by the Radical Quarterly.
It might be better to keep out of the alphabet soup entirely, so as to avoid being confused with the SDLP, etc.
Tom Snowdon 8th Dec ’15 – 9:19am One former member of the SDP was a former Tory MP. Some of the others joined the Conservatives, inluding the MP for Tunbridge Wells and a columnist in The Times who is now a Tory peer.
We should credit their achievements: the former is now the Cabinet Minister for local government, has loosened the planning system and will decide on fracking: the latter writes well on football with the help of statisticians.
If my experience as someone who has recently made the switch from Labour to LibDem is at all typical then I can tell you that this is not an easy thing to do. In my case I left Labour before even considering joining the LibDems. It was only when I was out in the cold that I began to look for a new home.
For me, Labour was truly awful under Ed Miliband (that’s when I gave up my party membership) and became truly intolerable under Mr Corbyn (that’s when I vowed to never vote Labour again). However, if there hadn’t been a change in LibDem leadership I wouldn’t have joined. For me it was anathema for any liberal social democratic party to align themselves with the Tories and I can well imagine that there are many from the left who will never forgive this ‘collaboration’.
I have been a party member for about 10 weeks now and I’ve found internal communication pretty hard going. For example I only realised that there was a Social Democratic Group after seeing this post and tweeting party members sometimes feels a bit like standing at the roadside and shouting at the traffic.
I can absolutely agree with George about not making Social Democrats who have joined us uncomfortable by calling them “Liberals”. As he says, they will find in time that (or if) they’re Liberal Democrats and may even find they’re Liberals. I can’t agree that all parties have a mix of views on how to balance liberty and security, so there’s really no difference between Liberals and Social Democrats on this. A commitment to liberty is at the heart of Liberalism. It’s much less central to Social Democracy. Same with driving power down to the lowest level possible – essentially Liberal, optionally Social Democrat. From this I conclude that some people who can be described as Social Democrats are natural allies of Liberals and some aren’t.
From a Social Democrat perspective of course, the same can be said of Liberals.
Phil – welcome to the party! The Social Democratic group has only just been set up, but there are several other Facebook groups that you might like to join as well, such as LibDem Forum and Alliance of Liberal Democrats. There is also the Social Liberal Forum at http://www.socialliberal.net/, which might resonate with you.
I agree with what Simon Banks says about their being degrees of agreement with differing traditions. I spent a happy half hour at a family party over the weekend agreeing with a Conservative councillor and their partner on the phoney nature of the current devolution to local authorities, the iniquities of the benefits cap, the housing association right-to-buy, the artificial nature of the current 2-party system … and then I broached Europe and foreign policy and gave up in the face of statements about the ‘fourth reich’ and the need to attack others before they attacked us.
As a devoutionist democrat, there was much in me that could speak to the community-minded localist in him. But outside his own community, he had a Little-Englander approach to the wider world, and his apparently multilateral, bipartisan approach did not have any extent of trust towards those who were not already or aspiring to be British citizens.
I can see how there are often similar issues of discord with those on the left for Liberal Democrats (sometimes the exact opposite to my discussion at the party).
But I had always understood that the formaiton of the party was a merger between social democrats and liberals to forge a common mutually intelligible politics, not an absorption by liberals of those social democrats they found acceptable.
The fact of the party’s formation by merger, to me, suggested that the party gave up the ambition to be either a party for all liberals or for all social democrats, but to create a new, conjoined political language (of which ‘social liberalism’ would be a very good descriptor if anyone else used the term the way we do).
Obviously I was not there at the time, and subsequent events suggest that many liberals in the party did not feel constrained to only seek out liberals who could find common ground with social democrats (also that as has been attested, many social democrats wanted to push further right than many liberals at the time were comfortable).
But I do feel that some in the party would like us to shout ‘Liberal’ and whisper ‘democrat’.
Matt (Bristol) 8th Dec ’15 – 12:32pm We should use the minimum number of names for clarity and branding. Liberal Democrat says who we are. Lib Dem was conceded by David Steel in an interview with The Independent, during Paddy Ashdown’s leadership, as OK for headlines. That is more than enough.
@Dave Orbison,
I’ve no doubt that Momentum will be very different in different parts of the country, but have you seen the following article?
http://www.conservativehome.com/leftwatch/2015/12/my-evening-with-mcdonnell-and-momentum-and-yes-its-all-about-deselections.html
I know this was written by a Conservative. You’ll probably be sceptical, but it has the ring of truth to me. What he describes is uncannily similar to what I saw in the 1980s. It matches the attitude I see on the internet. And, with McDonnell, it matches with the way he conducted himself before he became Shadow Chancellor.
Maybe McDonnell no longer jokes about shaking his political opponents by the neck. But he did last year, and you can imagine for me personally, that brings back worrying memories.
Maybe McDonnell no longer believes in abolishing capitalism or nationalising the banks, but you can’t blame us for being extremely sceptical, especially when he doesn’t explicitly say that he has changed his position.
@Paul King
I agree. It’s extremely worrying. In all probability, 2020 is a write-off, but I still harbour a lingering hope that, somehow, over the next four years, we on the centre-left can get our act together.
@Mark
Yes. I’d love for there to be a similar initiative to draw in genuinely moderate Tories, but I don’t think now is the time to do it. Some while back, the party had a group called the Peel Group. Maybe it can be revived some time.
@Peter Watson
Every time you go out recruiting, and say to people that, if they join our party, they will have influence over our policies, you’re potentially inviting them to take over. So yes, that’s a risk. But the alternative is to become such a narrow church, that we win nothing, and disappear as a party.
@expats
Tribalism is a fact of life in politics. But, behind the bluster, there’s a lot of cross-party friendships in politics. Let’s see how this works out. But, if a Labour MP does come over to us in the next year or so, and that may not happen, then they’ll probably be one of the more liberal-minded Labour MPs.
@Nick
I don’t know what moderate Labour people are planning. It may be they are still so much in shock at events over the autumn, that they haven’t decided how to respond yet. Regardless, there already are Labour members joining us, like Phil Aisthorpe above, and there will be more to come. We should try to encourage them.
@Phil Aisthorpe
Welcome. And you’re absolutely right. As Neil Sandison says, moving into a new home is extremely stressful. Even more so if some of your friends will feel you are betraying them, and if you are uncertain of the welcome you will receive.
I hope we in the Social Democrat Group can do a little to improve your communication with fellow Lib Dems. But if we too get things wrong, please bear with us, as we’re just volunteers, and still setting things up.
@Simon Banks
I agree that those who think of themselves as Liberals generally put a greater emphasis on liberty, but not always. In my experience, in the party, there’s a wider difference of opinion on liberty and security than you might think. It’s just that it’s not reflected in online discussions.
@Matt (Bristol)
Thanks. There are a lot of social democrats in the party who have been muting their views, because they didn’t want to cause unnecessary dissention. I was one. Since we started forming this group, I’ve met a number of others. I feel that, at a time when many social democrats are looking for a party which might welcome them, it’s now important that we speak out, so that they know this is a party they can join.