A quick follow-up to our story, Jenny Tonge resigns…
Baroness (Jenny) Tonge has this afternoon resigned the Lib Dem whip after coming under intense pressure following the widespread reporting of remarks she made last week declaring that Israel “will reap what they have sown” once the USA gets “sick of giving £70bn a year to Israel to support what I call America’s aircraft carrier in the Middle East”.
It is by no means the first time Baroness Tonge has landed herself in hot water for her out-spoken views on Israel:
- She was sacked by then leader Charles Kennedy as the Lib Dem children’s spokeswoman in the Commons in 2004 after she suggested she could consider becoming a Palastinian suicide bomber.
- Two years later, Charles’s successor Ming Campbell rebuked her for comments that some regarded as anti-semitic when she said, “The pro-Israeli lobby has got its grips on the western world, its financial grips.”
- In 2010, Ming’s successor Nick Clegg sacked Baroness Tonge as the Lib Dems’ health spokeswoman in the Lords after she apologised unreservedly for disseminating unsubstantiated claims that Israeli troops sent to Haiti after its earthquake were trafficking organs.
Her latest comments, made on a visit to Middlesex Univerity, were reported to be as follows:
“Beware Israel. Israel is not going to be there for ever in its present form. One day, the United States of America will get sick of giving £70bn a year to Israel to support what I call America’s aircraft carrier in the Middle East – that is Israel. One day, the American people are going to say to the Israel lobby in the USA: enough is enough. … Israel will lose support and then they will reap what they have sown.”
According to the Guardian, the party’s initial response was to disassociate the Lib Dems from Baroness Tonge’s remarks, but not ask her to withdraw them:
A spokesman said: “Jenny Tonge does not speak for the party on Israel and Palestine. Her presence and comments at this event were extremely ill-advised and ill-judged. The tone of the debate at this event was wholly unacceptable and adds nothing to the peace process. The Liberal Democrats are wholehearted supporters of a peaceful two state solution to the Israel- Palestine issue.”
However, in the afternoon it emerged Nick Clegg had delivered an ultimatum that either she should withdraw and apologise for her comments, or have the Lib Dem whip removed. Baroness Tonge decided she would not apologise, and so resigned the whip herself (and I understand may have resigned from the party itself, though I don’t know that for sure).
There’s a strong sense in the party’s highest echelons today that she has been given more than enough second chances, and that her repeated inflammatory interventions are damaging the party’s position on a highly sensitive issue.
* Stephen was Editor (and Co-Editor) of Liberal Democrat Voice from 2007 to 2015, and writes at The Collected Stephen Tall.
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73 Comments
Surely a two state solution isn’t Israel in its current form, and “reaping what they sow” is realistically the effect of not having a peace dividend if it lost US financial aid.
If only JT didn’t have form…
not this again!
Having an opinion on one side or another shouldn’t be a resigning issue as long as you are not deliberately trying to wind up the other side.
My view on the middle east is it is a total mess and both sides have a lot to answer for, The rhetoric from the hard liners is stopping the moderates on both sides from being heard and coming to workable solution.
If she had said the same about the Palestinians would that have been a resigning issue?
What makes Israel such a special case?
Is no-one allowed to speak up against them?
So “inflammatory interventions” [defined by ????] on “sensitive issues” [ditto] are now to be punished by removal of the whip?
Where is the party going?
Her remark seems to be an incitement to hatred, and should perhaps be investigated by the police. All sides in the Middle East have major faults, and if some of us had grown up in Gaza we might indeed have become suicide bombers, but we didn’t and so our emotions have not been distorted by those experiences. We have the ability to think more clearly. One of the principles that should guide our approach is that everyone on all sides has a right to life. The Baroness’s remarks can too easily be interpreted as contrary to this.
I’d say that the Baroness’s analysis of the problems and hooks there is also rather inept. But that’s another discussion …
@crewegwyn
“So “inflammatory interventions” [defined by ????] on “sensitive issues” [ditto] are now to be punished by removal of the whip?”
Well not quite …. the story says “Baroness (Jenny) Tonge has this afternoon resigned the Lib Dem whip.” She appears to have removed the whip herself.
Simon
In your haste to comment you appear to have missed this bit of the article you were commenting on:
“,,, in the afternoon it emerged Nick Clegg had delivered an ultimatum that either she should withdraw and apologise for her comments, or have the Lib Dem whip removed.”
One of those cases where punctuation is all-important.
Did she say, ‘Beware Israel’, or ‘beware, Israel.’ The latter, which is a warning to Israel rather than of it, makes a lot more sense in the context.
Jenny Tonge states “Israel is not going to be there for ever in its present form.”
Surely every decent, right-minded person should hope that this is the case. In its present form , Israel illegally occupies large areas of Palestinian territory.
What a sad day for freedom of speech, whatever you may think of her she has a right to express her views. You’re not seeing politicians banning the BNP and EDL for their anti Muslim hatred or seeing politicians attacking Israel”s nuclear weapons.
I thought Liberal Democrats were about freedom and justice, how wrong I was.
Israel has refused to stop illegal settlements, killed thousands of innocent palestinians, demolished buildings and expelled families – this non story is an attempt to divert attention away from Israel’s crimes.
When will our government demand Israel recognises Palestine and give them their freedom?
You can’t predict that no country will ever remain, who knows what the future holds? Israel has failed to abide by UN Security resolutions and won’t stop oppressing Palestinians.
Time that we say no to the Pro Israeli lobby who refuse to condemn Israel’s actions.
Until there is equality of treatment from the British and Americans we will see Israel continue its oppression.
What a sad day for freedom of speech, remember that?
“She was sacked by then leader Charles Kennedy as the Lib Dem children’s spokeswoman in the Commons in 2004 after she suggested she could consider becoming a Palastinian suicide bomber.”
I am sure you know this is not true. So why does it appear here?
Jenny Tonge said that she could understand the reasons why some Palestinians decided to become suicide bombers. A totally different matter.
I understand their reasoning, too. Doesn’t mean that I would ever contemplate or consider doing it myself or approve of what they do.
In Jenny Tonge’s defence, I think she performs a very useful role in demonstrating why having a House of Lords to which you may be appointed for life is a really stupid idea.
I am a fierce critic of Israeli government policies over the last decades. But when you’r reaching for anti-semitic phrases lifted straight from Nazi propaganda, circulating racist smears and expressing your sympathy for terrorists deliberately murdering civilians then you have taken a long jump off the deep end. The Lib Dems are better off without her and the pro-palestinian movement is better off without someone speaking in these ridiculous terms and dredging up language reminiscent of the worst history of anti-semitism.
I mostly agree with Jenny Tongue about Israel. Should I resign too?
Tonge/Tongue – wasn’t meant to be written that way, but . . .
Let this be a warning aginst promoting mediocre backbenchers to the Lords.
I am concerned about this site’s advertising policy.
Why are you carrying:
“Step up for Israel”?
(quote) “we can move one step closer to defeating the biased one-sided and hateful perspective on Israel.”
Would you do the same for ‘Step up for Iran’? Or Syria?
@David: “Let this be a warning aginst promoting mediocre backbenchers to the Lords”
Surely, we have enough problem with b]promoting them in the Commons ? 😉
Well done Jenny. The behaviour of the Governments of Israel over the last 40 or so years has been, & continues to be, outrageous. The country is in breach of more critcal UN resolutions, and for much longer, than Saddam Hussein ever was. It has a large nuclear arsenal – which it denies – and the means to deliver. It shrieks ‘anti-semitism’ at the first whiff of criticism. It is not anti semitism of course. One is not criticising the Jews. The briefest search of the internet reveals masses of Jewish groups who are as horrified at the behaviour of Israel as many of the rest of us.
I think Stephen W has it exactly right. While I agree with many of the criticisms of Israel in other comments here, the cause of peace is not served by the sort of inflamatory language Jenny Tonge has used. And as Stephen Tall points out, she has considerable form. It’s one thing being a fierce critic of Israel – so am I, as it happens. It’s another thing to condone suicide bombing, as she has sadly done in the past.
One other thing – Nick Clegg has been exemplary in this case. It appears she was given the chance to apologise and chose not to. And remember that only a few weeks ago, Nick was standing alongside Mahmoud Abbas and saying – as the offical British government spokesman – that continued Israeli settlement building was an obstacle to peace. Abbas told Nick Clegg then that it was exactly what the Palestinian people wanted to hear.
The road to peace is a diplomatic one – and Jenny Tonge is not helping us get there. Sorry Jenny but you had to go.
@mohammed Shafiq “You’re not seeing politicians banning the BNP and EDL for their anti Muslim hatred or seeing politicians attacking Israel”s nuclear weapons.”
Politicians aren’t “banning” Jenny Tonge either. She has left the Party, and she might have had the whip removed had she not, but I think it’s fair to say that if a Lib Dem parliamentarian expressed “anti Muslim hatred” they’d be similarly sanctioned by the party.
Apart from that, I agree with Stephen W, Simon and David (though I think David’s being overly generous with “mediocre”).
people keep talking about inflammatory langauge, but the only langauage ic an see used by Jenny was likely to inflame Tories but not much else. She said Israel wouldn’t be around for ever in its present form – well, obviously, if there is a two state solution it won’t be, as it occupies palestinian territories. And she said they will reap what they so – well, they are already doing this on a daily basis, through terror attacks/children throwing stones at US-made Israeli tanks (delete according to yoru world view). Another nail in t he coffin of the left-leaning party i joined back in the 90’s…
the fact that one particular race has suffered injustice over centuries does not justify them being the perpetrators of more injustice. Never forget that the bombing of the King David hotel in 1947(? ) was labelled the worst atrocity in history before 911 (The Twin Towers) this century and how these ruthless killers of women and children dominated Israeli politics for the following half century. Likewise the Arabs in Palestine have committed atrocities – Jordan’s Field and the hijacking of aircraft in the 1960s and present day suicide bombings. Each side has behaved more or less as badly as the other and history must not be rewritten so that independent observers such as ourselves take sides blind to the past.
One solid fact is beyond dispute. There are many apolitical men women and children in the Middle East who are suffering because of the folly of intransigent politicians. This being so, it is immoral for the world at large to ignore the Palestine problem and the censorship of debate is, as it always has been, counter-productive
This is not a good moment for freedom of speech in the Liberal Democrats (as I have blogged).
The point is that Tonge was a Libdem Peer, when she spoke she would be seen as representing The Party, its not like you or me saying stuff. Shes welcome to go saying such things as long as its clear she doesnt represent the rest of us.
I don’t particularly like Jenny Tonge’s potty views on Israel or her politics in general (she was an advisor to Liberal Left after all) but I am uncomfortable with the fact that she has been forced into resigning the whip merely for expressing an opinion.
What this case underlines is the need for an elected House of Lords so that electors can vote out wrong un’s like Baroness Tonge.
Her comments regarding this issue have always been extremely hostile to Israel and unpalatable to the electorate , as is the company she keeps, which is why she gives obscure speeches to other radicals rather than to the general public. This is the reason Nick Clegg took the action he did – because she will cost you votes. If you replace the word “Israel” with any other country her rant(s) would be viewed as far-right, hateful, racist and more fitting with the BNP than the Liberal Democrats. But when it’s Israel some people seem to think it’s okay. Why?
Jenny Tongue hasn’t “condoned” suicide bombing. She’s said that she understands why some Palestinians might become so desperate that they become suicide bombers. As for Israel; what no one seems to have mentioned is that there are very many anti-Zionist Jews who do not support Israel, and who would agree with Jenny. http://www.realnews247.com/spec_rpt_jews_against_zionism.htm. The reaction to her comments, which were taken out of context, has been based on ignorance.
At the risk of offending everybody (which I like doing because the reaction is usually more interesting), I’d say that the lesson here is that you don’t always win an argument by adopting the tactics of your opponent.
In this case, Jenny rose to the provocation like a bull to a red rag. She would have made her point far more effectively by waiting for the marshalls to evict the Zionist provocateurs (http://m.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/feb/29/lady-tonge-lib-dem-israel?cat=politics&type=article), and by then using their behaviour to illustrate and give credibility to her further remarks, such as remarks on some of the awful experiences of the people of Gaza.
Meeting provocation with provocation is one of the reasons why problems don’t get solved. It is perhaps one of the ways that leaders on some sides manipulate their supporters. It is not a liberal tactic. It is good that Nick Clegg re-affirmed our support for Palestinians and for a two-state solution.
“you don’t always win an argument by adopting the tactics of your opponent.”
Indeed you don’t.
Jenny Tonge should realise that the flood of biased, one-sided propaganda against the Palestinians is not best refuted by biased, one-sided propaganda in their favour – however tempting it is to redress an appallingly uneven balance.
Nick Clegg should realise that “deliver(ing) an ultimatum that either she should withdraw and apologise for her comments, or have the Lib Dem whip removed” is an illiberal over-reaction, which serves only to undermine our claims to even-handedness and a genuine will to achieve an equitable two-state solution.
I think the below quotes from Jenny as reported in the Jewish Chronicle are perhaps too important to be overlooked:
“However any of you like to interpret my remarks, I am not antisemitic. It is injustice that concerns me most. “I am certainly anti the current Israel government and I am anti the Israel lobby that supports that government. “I am not antisemitic. Get it? It is very important to make that distinction.”
Now I don’t hold any kind of torch for Jenny’s views on Israel or the Israeli lobby, but when Ed Milliband Tweets that there is “No place in politics for those who question existence of the state of Israel” we have really got to take a bit of a breath.
Why is there no place in politics for those who question the existance of the state of Israel? Alex Salmond questions the existance of a state called the United Kingdom (‘in its present form’ to pray Jenny in aid). I don’t agree with either Alex or Jenny myself. But come on…..its all a bit orwellian.
I understand why Jenny had to resign the whip, but I also think the way the ‘Friends of Israel’ groupings operate (blowing things way out of proportion, using things for party political gain, being selective and melodramatic) is quite scary.
@Mohammed Shafiq: Of course Jenny Tonge has a right to express her views, and nothing that has happened now prevents her from doing so. The question is whether the Lib Dems consider someone who expresses such views as she has expressed can continue to be a spokesman for the party — and that is a matter for the Lib Dem party. This is nothing to do with freedom of speech but freedom of association, which includes the right of private organisations to decide who may or may not belong to them. And incidentally, I suspect (and certainly hope) that any Lib Dem who expressed sympathy for the BNP or EDL or any similar organisation would be immediately expelled from the party. Lady Tonge has not been expelled; she has only resigned the party whip in the HoL after the latest in a number of incidents.
Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from the consequences of your speech.
I understand that there were certain pro-Israeli`s at this meeting- They inform me that during this “Discussion” they sat there calmly- not interrupting- They then attempted to ask questions and put points- They were rebuffed and ushered out of the auditorium by security at the behest of the “Table”.
I think that, for me says it all.
Whatever one may say about Jenny Tonge’s compassion and sympathies she is incapable of learning from her mistakes, which suggests incompetence. She sets a bad example and is therefore a bad representative.
That said, politics is the poorer for the loss of egotistic, maverick firebrands who stir up debate and force us to focus on the issues. While I think she should be welcomed in the party for the contribution she is sometimes capable of it would be better if she found a more appropriate pulpit for her sermons.
I’ve blogged about it: http://theanswers42.blogspot.com/2012/03/jenny-tonge-storm-of-ignorance.html
Do any of Jenny Tonge’s supporters agree with Ken O’Keefe’s remarks about 9/11 & Mossad?
They didn’t seem to trouble Baroness Tonge too much.
@Alex McFie:
“Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from the consequences of your speech.”
Like being bullied by anonymous ‘party spokespersons’ and tabloid press deliberately misinterpreting your words to suit their biased agenda. Consequences indeed.
@s specterman:
“I understand that there were certain pro-Israeli`s at this meeting- They inform me that during this “Discussion” they sat there calmly- not interrupting”
While not saying they should be disbelieved either, why do you necessarily believe these statements?
Commenting reminder: Please remember to respect our moderation policy which basically asks people to be polite, be on topic and be honest (ie don’t pretend to be more than one person or to be someone you are not). Please remmeber also the point about not making repetitive commments, such as raising the same topic again and again in different threads, unless it is directly relevant to the posts you are making it on.
As you can see from other comments published on the site, wide-ranging and robust debate is fine (including comments critical of the party or the site). However, we do ask for little bit of civility – and the chances are you’ll find that makes your points a little more effective at persuading others anyway!
Thanks.
Voice,
Just like Jenny, people sometimes go over the top sometimes, particularly when debating strong beliefs. It’s natural, human, even beneficial sometimes. Sometimes also, as in my case, the section of society we come from has taught us ways which we would not notice, but which others find highly offensive.. We are a diverse bunch, and I hope that LDV moderators can be charitable about it .
@Tony Dawson, the advertising appears to be from a third-party supplier based very roughly on the content and on where you are. I am reading this (politics) in Slovakia, so I am seeing ads exhorting me to vote for the Slovak green party on March 10, when our partner in Slovakia is Sloboda a Solidarita (Freedom and Solidarity).
All it takes for evil to prevail is for good people to stay silent. Fortunately for us Jenny Tonge doesn’t stay silent and the future will show her on the right side of history.
ADVERTISING
How much do the ads cost? I am getting “Live in Israel and study English” at the top of the page. Yesterday I was getting “Join a Kibbutz” at the bottom of the page, but not today. I’m not seeing “Come to Gaza It’s Great!” anywhere.
I also get “Asian Girls for Dating and Marriage”, and “Profit from DeForesting the Brazilian Rainforest”.
I think the ads are watching me.
Now I’ve got “Hebrew Language Lessons – Register with a Teacher from Israel Now!”
US military aid to Israel averages US$3 billion a year, NOT ‘US$70 billion’! . . Officials have insisted the aid is not tied, or meant to balance, simultaneous American plans to sell $20 billion worth of sophisticated arms to its Arab allies in the region, including Egypt and Saudi Arabia . .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93United_States_military_relations
For a more balanced view of Jenny Tonge’s work in recent years in and out of the House of Lords, here is a link to 241 news pages about her on the Twickenham & Richmond LP website (which I edit):
http://twickenhamlibdems.co.uk/en/search?query=tonge&sort=date
As I understand it, a member of the House of Lords cannot be “sacked” by the Party leader, it has to be by a meeting of that parliamentary group. So not only could the leader not have issued an ultimatum to her, but she actually resigned the whip rather than had it taken from her.
The only long term peaceful future is for an Apartheid free tolerant single state Arab Israeli Palestine. Israel is not going to be there for ever in its present form. Well spoken Jenny Tonge! How powerful the pro-Israel lobby has always been in the Liberal Party and is now in the Liberal Democratic Party!
The trouble with Jenny Tonge is that she always takes her remarks beyond the point where those of liberal views who have great sympathy with the Palestinian cause can fully support her.
In January 2004 she did not simply ask for understanding of why Palestinians could become caught up in violence. She said “If I had to live in that situation – and I say that advisedly – I might just consider becoming one [a suicide bomber] myself.” From an MP for leafy Richmond that was just a daft and profoundly unhelpful remark.
Denis, I don’t agree with you – I think it is very helpful to try in some way to bring empathy with other things happening elsewhere in the world. Of course it means when you are quoted secondhand not all the context of what you are saying transmits, and unfortunately the media sometimes put a distorted message out there. It seems to me that the logical outcome of your view as expressed here is that politicians will only make very carefully controlled soundbites in public (or perhaps we are saying that people agree with the Daily Mail world view out there, so only remarks in conformity with that will be tolerated). I agree with London Liberal – this is not the Liberal Party I joined.
As I remember, Jenny has always been a controversial figure in the Party, long before defence of the Palestinian cause became her trademark. I remember a time when her title “Dr Tonge” was called into question regularly, and her passionate work to try to get access to NHS abortions equalised arcross the country. Jenny may be a “firebrand”, but she does her politics by means of controversy. A high risk strategy maybe, but comments implying she is “incompetent”, “not up to it” or “a mediocre backbencher” in her time in the Commons are simply wide of the mark. She is a doughty defender ofliberalism, and I sincerely hope she remains a party member. Her championing of Liberal Left sits well with her taking up of causes. After all, campaigning publicly, often for and against things considered unusual at the time is very much in our tradition.
Liberal Democrat Friends of Palestine meeting 1pm next Sat in Gateshead….
I think one of the key problems here is that there has been little or no reporting of what’s actually been going on in Israel over the last year. I think that’s because it all kicked off at the same time as our own riots.
Here’s a video which is well worth watching:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBTJaieg-Rs
and here’s the wiki about the summer movement last year. Although it’s reported as being about housing what you really had was the coherent genesis of the occupy movement – tens of thousands of young people living on the streets and talking to each other because they are prevented from free communication otherwise.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Israeli_social_justice_protests
You have they younger generation of Israelis becoming consciously aware of the corruption and lies around them.
The best solution here is for this generation to take power from the extremists and to enact the Geneva Accord. We should working to support this happening.
Here’s a blog on what I’ve been doing:
http://cyberrhetoricbyrebeccahanson.blogspot.com/2011/12/how-to-manage-agenda-of-form-if-you.html
@Tim13
Sorry Tim, it is not good enough to excuse a statement like that by saying “Jenny is a bit of a firebrand and likes to be controversial.” I come from Northern Ireland – I have seen innocent people blown apart by bombers claiming grievances. I will never countenance any Liberal Democrat representative suggesting they would ever remotely think of doing that – even if the suicide element meant sacrificing their own life at the same time as slaughtering anyone who happened to be guilty of standing nearby.
No, her comments are not about a positive vision for the future, nor do they encourage more positive engagement with the means for achieving this. Her comments were undiplomatic and therefore unprofessional.
The issue of tensions in the Middle-East is a separate matter from her handling of them – we cannot allow ourselves to turn her into a martyr for free speech because her words do not help build resolution to unite politically against violence.
Jenny Tonge has a perfect right to speak out but she repeatedly abused her position of responsibility. How can we expect to gain the trust of our partners when they cannot trust our representatives? She had to go.
From a personal perspective, had she wished to win a greater measure of support among commenters here then perhaps she’d have been well-advised to engage us with her comments on the situation in-keeping with the spirit of open dialogue LibDems call for. Otherwise we can only assume she has a self-destructive streak which leads her to set out for failure.
It seems that the Liberal Democratic Party leadership, at least, does not like to call a spade a spade when it comes to Israel. A two state solution is not a peaceful or realistic solution. It is a fig leaf for stasis.
The sort of people who left South Africa in disgust against Apartheid before it fell are now, according to a friend of mine, leaving Israel in disgust at the Apartheid there.
It is a positive vision of the future to point out that Israel is not going to be there for ever in its present form, just as South Africa was not there for ever in its Apartheid form.
She wasn’t calling a spade a spade. She was calling a spade a club in an unhelpful, ignorant and deeply counterproductive way.
If she wanted to talk in a constructive way about future visions of Israel she could have referred to the Geneva Accord or to the coming to awareness of the younger generation.
Denis, I didn’t say she was a bit of a firebrand. I was quoting someone else, and offering the opinion “she may be a firebrand”. I personally don’t believe that is her normal way. Her comments from years ago about having some sympathy with suicide bombers among Palestinians, were not firebrand, they were an attempt at empathy. I assume those were the comments you were quoting me as not being prepared to condemn?
What I was trying to get over in my post that we should not, as politicians be so cautious to the point of boiling down all our comments into meaningless soundbites. And as Liberals / Lib Dems we should not just accept the status quo. I would hope that if you are someone from Northern Ireland with a fairly long memory of the troubles, that you would have wanted to change things, and if you had been a politician or activist, you would have been prepared to speak up about them. I hope also you would have liked to have been supported by others in Britain? And, of course, the corollary of that would be that there would be people in Britain not supporting whatever line you took.
Let me get one thing clear, I am passionate about moving towards a world where we sort things out across the world without violence, although looking at the world around us, doesn’t look as if our 60s visions have moved on – if anything they have moved backwards. At simplest, Denis, I assume your point is : “Be tactful to all parties in an incendiary situation”, and I see your point. You may, like me, be a peace pledge signatory, and in that case you will almost certainly recognise that violence can and is done by powerful countries and individuals, as well as by “non-state combatants” as the US would have it. As liberals we can and must stand up to those forces. That is what Jenny has done over the years with the Israel – Palestine situation. I assume you recognise the gross imbalance of power in this situation?
Rebecca Hanson
The Geneva Accord is a two state solution, to which my comments refer. But thank you for your very interesting links. However, how could Jenny Tonge have constructively referred to the” coming to awareness of the younger generation”? What does that mean in the context of what she so rightly said? Their protests appear to be about jobs and inequality within Israel. What would be the young protesters views be about ending anti-Palestinian Apartheid in a tolerant single state Arab Israeli Palestine?
@Tim13
This is not about me -it’s about Jenny Tonge. However let me tell you a true story. A young Belfast man (not me) living in a “ghetto” was kneecapped for refusing to allow his car to be used by paramilitaries. His reaction was not to take up arms or blow people up but to join the then infant Alliance Party. Their policy was not to “be tactful to all parties in an incendiary situation” but to fight publicly with words and campaigns and votes everything that the men of violence and the divisive politicians on both sides did and said. The Party was a strong element in leading to the still fragile settlement in that greatly improving province. Ask Naomi Long, MP for East Belfast, what it takes to make real steps towards peace in “an incendiary situation” . Opining about becoming a suicide bomber it is not but I can tell you neither is it something for wimps.
I feel lucky not to have been in the middle of a situation like that. I certainly pay tribute to bravery of that kind, and would certainly not look on it as politics for wimps. Nevertheless, allof us in politics have to face less violent forms of conflict at one time or another, and I hope that many Lib Dems would face up to it, and speak their minds. You may disagree with Jenny, but she speaks her mind on the Israel – Palestine issue.
Indeed Tim13 – she’d be a fascinating person to know and personally I would treat her to lunch. I just wouldn’t employ her as a diplomat or put her in a key political position.
No one here has yet tackled the issue of how Baroness Tonge’s previously inflammatory statements:
Or why extremists like Ken O’Keefe articulate the views that they do, blaming 911 on Mossad, etc
I suspect it is part of a wider paranoid outlook that Baroness Tonge & O’Keefe seem to share.
Don’t know, Soupy one. Certainly reference to “financial grip”, being reminiscent of Nazi accusations, is a bit close to anti semitism for comfort. I still do not believe Jenny is anti semitic, as she has stated several times. To be honest, both the Palestinian and Israeli causes have strong representation in the Lib Dems. As for Mossad, wouldyou put anything past them? They have shown in the past that their reach is very considerable, and they are rather more public in their actions (and perhaps brazen) than most intelligence services. Not however, sensible for many reasons, to make big claims against them publicly without good evidence.
Dane – sorry I missed your question before – thank you for it.
There are many other reports and videos on the internet which give different perspectives on last summer’s occupy movement in Israel and of course different people participating in them would also have different perspective on what they were about.
They were vast, they were the genesis of the occupy movement but how much were they discussed in the Western media? There are extensive reports and evidence regarding the lack of free speech through the Israeli mass media.
The video I linked to gives some insight into other possible takes on what was going on….
And of course it’s not just explicit law and arrests which prevent free speech – it’s also the mindset of the younger generation who believe they have no right to challenge the conclusions of older generations who suffered so much and they’ve also been programmed to be part of the system through national service and so on.
The media and the mass media are very heavily managed by the pro-Israeli lobby.
Those protests were about the mainstream public becoming aware of the extent to which the ‘necessity’ for settlement in the West Bank is a lie. It’s a money making scheme for the rich elite which dominate life in Israel. The people want building in Israel but the building happens in the West Bank because nobody makes money out of building in Israel. By not building in Israel the elite create unrest of this kind and then spin it to justify the building in the West Bank – it was only by camping out in the streets for months that the ordinary people could get past the lies they’ve been taught and come to awareness of the system.
But their warnings in other international new reports are very clear – the Israeli elite always start a war to distract from unrest at home.
The emergence of the pro-Israel-pro-peace movement is a very positive response to this situation. The question we should be addressing is how we can help to ensure that the democratic processes in Israel deliver a government which is not acting in interest of those who make money out of land settlement in the West Bank. Not an easy thing to achieve and neither will be the delivery of the accord. But if you deliver the accord and you no longer have a threatening Israel you will be on the path to peace. The Middle East has worse things to worry about than an Israel which is properly and democratically governed and which is not a threat beyond its own borders.
news reports not new reports – sorry.
One of the seminal moments in this video is when one protester shouts – ‘the answer is settlement’. Look at the reaction of the crowd.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBTJaieg-Rs
Another is the arrests at the end to break up the protest.
Oh dear! It’s that old chestnut ‘anti-semitism’ rearing its ugly head once again! When is ‘anti-semitism’ not anti-semitism? Answer: When it’s fair political commen! Bully for Jenny! I’m with her all the way and applaud her for challenging those who would equivocate on this issue. For too long politicians all countries and all colours have deferred to this ‘pocket battleship’ of a state called Israel with its sabre-rattling and war-mongering e.g.(the current Obama-Netanyahu ‘discussions’), that believes it can put aside all civilised behaviour in its treatment of the Palestinians, stealing their land – always prime agricultural land, mind! – and constructing new settlements on it that are illegal under international law. Those Liberal Democrats who criticise Jenny Tonge should perhaps be asking themselves whether they are truly liberalal and democratic. What a pity that we appear to have lost a loyal, courageous and long-serving member of our party in this quite unnecessary ‘fracas’.
I, for one, am on the verge of leaving the National Party, to which I have belonged most of my life. The Lib-Dems are not exactly in a good position with the electorate at the moment so it is a very good time to stand up for the truth rather than to back down on it to appease the Israeli lobby. Jenny spoke only the truth when she said that Israel could not continue in its present form. It is breaking International and human rights law and it is alienating those within it and the neighbours around it. In fact suggesting it needs to change is to support the Nation of Israel not to suggest that it should not exist. I am the daughter of a Jewish refugee myself and am appalled, not just by Israel’s actions, but even more so by the USA and the way that the UK, which caused many of the problems in the Middle East in the first place, continues to follow on blindly. Between them, Israel and the USA are very likely to cause a terrible war with even graver repercussions than we now have. It is about time that the Party that I thought stood up for human rights, social justice and International Law, took the opportunity of actually being in some sort of power and came out, instead of running away. Shame, shame and shame on you!
.Her remark seems to be an incitement to hatred, and should perhaps be investigated by the police.’
so any criticism of israel now warrants police action – what next? Poor jenny; to face intolerance to free speech like this man is showing!
I asked this before, but never got a satisfactory answer.
1. Do Lib Dems feel comfortable with Baroness Tonge sharing a platform with Ken O’Keefe?
2. Do Lib Dems realise or even agree with Ken O’Keefe views on 9/11? He blames it on Israelis.
Soupy One – I’ve never heard of Ken O’Keefe. I suspect many other people haven’t either. So if you think he talks nonsense – perhaps its sensible to ignore him rather than giving him publicity.
Alistair,
Everyone here has access to the Internet so pleading ignorance on Ken O’Keefe is very weak.
Keefe is what the Americans call a truther.
He believes that Israelis committed 9/11.
You can find his comments on youtube videos under various extremist channels or simply using Google.
It would have been rather elementary for Baroness Tonge’s assistants or researchers to find out the views of those she is going to share a platform with.
It would have been nice to hear her rebuke Keefe for his offensive remarks, but she didn’t.
Soupy, I’ve looked him up and he appears to be an unreconstructed conspiracy theorist of the type that is common across the pond. Now I’ve humoured you – perhaps you can take a look at this and tell me how “comfortable” you feel about it http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2009/jan/19/gaza-phosphorus-victim
Of course, Jenny Tonge’s real crime in Nick Clegg’s Liberal Democrat Party is standing by her principles . . .
Alistair,
You can humour me all you like, you can even be patronising but you don’t particularly seem interested in understanding anti-Jewish racism or dealing with it.
Are you in the Lib Dems?
Normally, I wouldn’t jump through your hoop just to please you.
But let me make it very clear, it was wrong for the Israeli government to employ phosphorous in Gaza. It was wrong, terribly wrong for them to use armaments near civilians. It was wrong to make incursions into Gaza that would endanger Palestinian civilians. It was reckless and counter-productive.
Now tell me, do you understand *why* Ken O’Keefe thinks that Israelis did 911? And can you see what was the connection between the speakers on that platform?
I hope you can, I’d like to think that you oppose anti-Jewish racism, well?
As a long term supporter of the Palestinian people, I can understand Jenny Tonge’s frustration with the current Israeli government. But the fuss about her recent comments was claerly over the top and the party leader was wrong to pillory her. If you are a supporter of a two state solution, with consequent land swaps etc it is blindingly obvious that the borders of Israel will have to change. So it cannot survive in the long term in its present form – which is what Jenny said. What’s the problem?
Simon Hebditch
Hear, hear! And even more so for those of us who think that the only peaceful and practical long term solution is a tolerant single state Arab Israeli Palestine. Gaza and the West Bank could not and should not be forever a geograhically divided Bantustan under the sway of Israel in a phoney two state solution.