Breastfeeding is in the news again after Claridges thought that it was ok .to tell a mother to cover up as her baby nursed.
Nick Clegg was asked a rather strange question, which he eventually answered pretty well, about whether the importance of breastfeeding should be covered in Personal Health and Social Education classes and whether mothers should be told that it should be done in private. The right answer is, of course, yes to the first and no to the second.
It’s really quite ridiculous to think that it took until 2010 for the rights of mothers to breastfeed their babies in public was protected in law. This means that nobody can ask a mother to stop doing so in any place where she and the baby are allowed to be. Scotland was way ahead of the game, protecting women some five years before. Remembering the struggle it was to get that bill through, I wouldn’t give too much credit to the Labour/Liberal Democrat government of the day. It took a cross party alliance of women to keep Elaine Smith’s private member’s bill alive.
Anyway, the ensuing discussion on LBC showed that attitudes haven’t changed as much as we might have liked, with people complaining about the offensiveness of breastfeeding. Seriously, if someone is offended by the view of the back of a quiet baby’s head, then I really have to wonder about their priorities in life. Jo Swinson was listening to this discussion in her car on the way to visit the National Childbirth Trust. This is what she thought:
Off to meet @NCTcharity & incredulous at @LBC on car radio: people saying Page3 is fine but breastfeeding in public offensive! Infuriating!
— Jo Swinson (@joswinson) December 4, 2014
Her tweet reminded me of that day when my baby was 4 months old. I was having a cup of tea in the village tea room in Edwinstowe. There was nobody else in. The manager screamed at me across the restaurant to stop doing that in case a man came in and was embarrassed. I didn’t stop and a then a whole crowd of pensioners came in who were completely unfazed by a nursing baby and were chatting away to me about all sorts.
I noticed as I left the cafe that one of the newspapers that they had laid out for their customers was The Sun.
You do have to wonder about people sometimes. We humans have a portable, clean, readily available feeding system for our young. Not only that, it protects our young from illnesses not just immediately but throughout their lives. That’s pretty fantastic. Why aren’t we celebrating it rather than being slightly ashamed of it? A culture that tells us that nursing our babies is wrong because it comes in things that are supposed to exist solely for the sexual gratification of men is more than a little bit twisted.
* Caron Lindsay is Editor of Liberal Democrat Voice and blogs at Caron's Musings. You can find her on Bluesky at caronmlindsay.bsky.social
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34 Comments
Caron – What is wrong with behaving discreetly? Of course breast-feeding is natural for mothers to do but that doesn’t mean everyone is comfortable with its display. Lots of human acts are natural but some are best done either discreetly or in private.
I don’t think it’s the breast-feeding that is the reason for the embarrassment but perhaps the lack of ‘modesty’ in public ie: bare exposure of the breast by some women who think they have the ‘right’ to do it ‘their’ way, wherever it happens to be.
As always, it’s a matter of people comport themselves in these public situations which is the key. Afterall, there are ways of breast-feeding babies in public which are pretty discreet. It’s about mutual respect and responsibility.
I don’t think it’s just some men who might be uncomfortable by the way at indiscreet behaviour – many women are too (I include those who have brought up children). What’s the problem with that?
What is immodest or indiscreet about breastfeeding, Helen?
David-1
I’m not sure you read my comment correctly. I didn’t say there was anything immodest about breastfeeding in public but how it is done determines the reaction she will get from women as well as men.
Helen, I can’t tell you how shocked I am by your comments. I think the activity you should do discreetly in future is have a word with yourself before you put your thoughts on a blog.
Caron your absolutely right Breast feeding is the most natural and difficult thing human beings do. I have to say I’m thankful there are people more articulate than myself in the party to put these points across as my response to 1950’s bigots is far less ‘discreet’!
The thing is Helen it is not always easy to regulate how discreet you are – older babies get distracted sometimes and when they detach suddenly you reveal all whether you want to or not! Surely the problem is not lack of discretion but lack of breastfeeding full stop. I found a lot of support for early breastfeeding but encountered stigma and hostility when breastfeeding a toddler (even though the World Health Organisation recommends feeding up to two years and beyond).
In my experience most nursing mums are so discrete that unless you’re really looking you barely notice, and certainly making them cover up with cloth would just draw more attention…
My wife couldn’t continue breastfeeding for long so we didn’t really have chance to experience any issues. However, when any of my three wanted a feed they certainly made it very plain in a very loud way, the golden rule was always if the baby is hungry feed them! Breastfeeding mums shouldn’t have to worry about offending anyone, if they’re in a suitable comfortable environment they should be allowed to feed their baby. It would be cruel to the baby to make them wait while mum finds somewhere “private” enough.
For those that feel awkward, try not looking…
First of all if someone has a problem with breastfeeding then it is their problem, not the problem of the breastfeeder.
Secondly, people like Helen, especially being a woman, should be able to voice a slightly different opinion on this topic without others saying “have a word with yourself before you put your thoughts on a blog”.
We need to encourage open debate, not just say “there’s only one correct answer and anyone saying otherwise should be shouted at”.
Yes, I am not known for my civility at all times, but honest debate should be encouraged.
This is all about ownership in the end; deep down lots of Men think that Breasts belong to them, breastfeeding is offensive because its a reminder that they dont.
I will preface this by saying that I agree with Caron
But saying this is ‘natural’ is not an argument. Going to the toilet is also natural, but you wouldn’t do it in public.
Okay. I’ll write it more clearly. I am not against breast-feeding in public. Steve Way is right. Most mums are discreet and cover themselves while breastfeeding in cafes and restaurants etc… This is a storm in a teacup.
Patrick – your response is disproportionate to my comment, which is more balanced than you suggest.
Indeed, a sense of proportion is needed!
We have experienced problems – our little one, Xanthe, breastfded until almost a year old. My partner was – in public at least – about as discreet as possible. And yet she was asked once to stop breastfeeding because “someone” had complained. This happened to be in a cafe.
Personally, I could not think of anything more natural than a person taking food in a cafe. It happened to be a baby, and the food was breastmilk, but – as Eddie points out – if anyone has a problem it was whoever this “someone” was. To her credit, my partner defended her right to feed and pointed out that it was virtually impossible to see anything and the member of staff was apologetic…but it shows the degree to which staff feel it’sright to act on such “complaints” rather than challenge them.
Oddly enough, the person doing the complaining didn’t seem to be too bothered about copies of the Sun and Daily Star lying around for customers’ use.
Perhaps we really need to take a look at how other European countries do this?
(But well said, Caron!)
Personally I do find it a bit embarrassing when people behave in a way that doesn’t take account of the sensitivities of those around them.
The answer to this is for anyone who is in any way upset by the sight of a mother feeding her baby to discreetly take themselves somewhere else, thus avoiding embarrassment to themselves and the rest of us, and in particular, to avoid distressing a nursing mum..
Caron and Jo are spot on. The double standard around the display of breasts is appalling.
Iain – the irony! I lost count of the number of Lib Dem events where I had to breastfeed in the toilet – fine in a posh hotel at conference, not much fun wedged up against the sanitary bin in a draughty cubicle in a community hall!
Helen, Andrew and Iain –
I am by no means perfect in my choice of language at times but in this occasion I think I got it right. I feel genuinely sad you feel it’s appropriate to use language that passes a negative judgement on a women’s ‘modesty’ when she is attempting to feed a hungry child. Never volunteer in Ethiopia for God sake unless it’s somewhere they can form an orderly que.
Your language however innocently meant is hugely damaging to the ability of genunie liberals to pentrate cultural perceptions of women being objectified. The sexualisation of breasts in popular culture is a phenomenon that is should be challenged if it leads to harmful parental experiences like breast feeding bigotry.
Social norms like modesty are a non issue when it comes to feeding a child. Please reflect on your politically, socially or culturally correct stance and try and think about the damaging impact of communicating in this way.
Across history, and in most societies, breastfeeding in public was and is seen as entirely unremarkable. It is not an issue, for example, in conservative Muslim countries.
In Catholic tradition, paintings of Mary breastfeeding Jesus, with a breast partly or fully exposed, were once commonplace devotional items. They were not considered offensive or blasphemous, quite the reverse.
The idea that this is something that, if done at all in public, has to be done in a very hidden way, is a very new one, and I am not sure to what extent it even exists outside Britain.
I cannot believe that this is still an issue. If a baby needs to be fed, feed it!
@ iain,
I wish I had a pound for every person who responded to a mother’s defensive response that breast feeding is natural with the comment that going to the lavatory is also natural. I heard it in the sixties when formula feeding was deemed ‘more scientific’ and thus argued to be better for the baby and I hear it now.
The level of ignorance and insensitivity of people who make that comparison never fails to amaze me, and people who have such an association in their minds should just ‘drop it’.
If telling someone to ‘drop it’ isn’t an argument, I don’t care, and neither should nursing mothers.
Breastfeeding my children was the most intimate experience between us. It was not something I wanted to do in a noisy environment. I do not agree with those women who do it to gain publicity and go out of their way to annoy which seems to be their way into celebrity. There is nothing wrong with being discreet and keeping that intimate moment as private as possible. Matthew Huntbach, because someone paints something it does not make it the reality! As for conservative Muslim countries (do any exist now?), I doubt very much women even there would bare their breasts in public in front of men.
Apparently Mr Farage agrees with asking mothers to move to a corner so that no-one can see them doing it. As if I needed any more reasons not to vote UKIP.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-30342953
I think a real crux to the matter is social acceptability and the new and/or less confident mother, taking their first steps with a new child and all that that entails. I think we need to both encourage and support these mothers, so whilst we should be saying its okay to breastfeed in public, we should also be encouraging cafes etc. (ie. places where mothers are likely to go to breastfeed and to get themselves necessary refreshment) to be more considerate of the needs of mothers who are breastfeeding to allow them to do so with some degree of self-respect.
@Patrick – I’m both surprised and confused:
“Helen, Andrew and Iain..>” – well, I’m the only Andrew on here who’s commented, so it must be me.
“I feel genuinely sad you feel it’s appropriate to use language that passes a negative judgement on a women’s ‘modesty’ when she is attempting to feed a hungry child. Never volunteer in Ethiopia for God sake unless it’s somewhere they can form an orderly que.” Certainly this was not my intention and I don’t see how I am passing any judgement, negative or otherwise, other than on how eating establishments respond to those who are uncomfortable with women breastfeding in “public” (even though the woman in question was in a corner and quite clearly was more than “modest” – not that it matters to me personally but I recognise that to some people it could be an issue).
“Your language however innocently meant is hugely damaging to the ability of genunie liberals to pentrate cultural perceptions of women being objectified.” If anyone’s making judgements here it’s via the use of terms like “genuine liberals”. Clearly I’m not falling into that category?
“The sexualisation of breasts in popular culture is a phenomenon that is should be challenged if it leads to harmful parental experiences like breast feeding bigotry.” I agree. It’s why I mentioned the ridiculous situation of a acfe tolerating the likes of The Sun while maing breastfeeding mothers feel uncomfortable.
“Social norms like modesty are a non issue when it comes to feeding a child.” Again, agreed.
“Please reflect on your politically, socially or culturally correct stance and try and think about the damaging impact of communicating in this way.” I have. I don’t think my stance is either politically/socially correct or damaging. In fact, it seems like I agree with you.
Show me again where I’m aiding the objectifation of women…for the life of me I really can’t see what’s so offensive about the experience I related. Clearly if I have unconsciously offended anyone I’ll ask to remove the post but I really don’t understand your comments.
I breast fed my three daughters in the seventies and eighties and was astonished that when two had babies they had bought some sort of large scarf to feed in public as I had assumed that the battle for the acceptance of breast feeding In public had been won many years ago.
The problem with using the scarf is that the baby gets caught up in it , starts to struggle and comes off the breast which results in a lot of embarrassing delving about while the baby roars with frustration thus attracting far more attention than lifting up a top or jumper.
Perhaps anyone who complains should be asked to go and eat their food in the toilet?
How many women breastfeed in public but get offended if someone looks at them? Middle class women can’t have it both ways. To have to constantly avert your eyes is difficult. We all look round in cafes and restaurants. Note how I use middle class.
@ Anne,
No-one is challenging your choice and right to be discrete. I am unaware of anyone who would challenge your right to keep your breast feeding interactions as an intimate experience that took place in a quiet environment. I only wish that my babies had been so compliant with my wishes!
@ Sue S,
I am afraid not. In fact I would argue that the situation has changed little since I first became a breast feeding supporter many decades ago.
It is all very well saying that the law has now changed, but it does little to boost the confidence of new mums. As anyone who has experienced prejudice for any other reason will know, it is attitudinal change that is important. New mums are never sure when they discretely feed their babies in public places whether someone will embarrass and humiliate them. The uncertainty remains. New mums are still having their behaviour controlled by people with sexual hang ups.
I fully endorse your view that anyone who thinks that it is appropriate to feed a baby or toddler in a lavatory, should eat their own food in one.
I breastfed my children and I never felt it being a most intimate experience, just the natural way of feeding babies, good for them, easy, convenient and free. I refused to have my movements limited by the fact that I had a baby, and I had arguments in airports, restaurants, pubs and even trains. Next time I meet Farage in a pub, I will ask him to drink his pint in a corner because he offends me and makes me unconfortable
Rita Giannini 5th Dec ’14 – 3:24pm
Next time I meet Farage in a pub, I will ask him to drink his pint in a corner because he offends me and makes me unconfortable…
Yes and if that could be in a corner of Bulgaria, even better.
@ Rita Gianni,
Given that in my opinion, Nigel Farage seems to spend most of his time speaking out of a part of anatomy that is normally kept covered when in polite society, I would be grateful if establishments banished him to a lavatory where he could continue in a manner that is as ostentatious as he pleases.
Andrew
I understand you were in agreement with much of what I said. The issue was with your sense of ‘proportionality’. My question would be at what point do you draw the line with those who find it acceptable or proportionate to socially vilify women and by implication the child for breast feeding in public. For me this is not now and never will be a matter of opinion, decency or modesty, children are entitled to eat when their biology demands it and social convention that is allowed to stand in the way of this is wrong and should be challenged in the strongest terms.
Patrick – the use of the word “proportionality” was used in a different sense. I took the word others were using and then applied it to the experience I referred to. Sorry if I didn’t make it clear that I was looking to expend the application of “proportionality” to the way establishments deal with “complaints” about “decency”.
A sense of proportion and commonsense would have resulted in – I believe – a different outcome.
Thanks for your explanation – I see where you’re coming from; perhaps I should have made myself more clear on that point…because quite clearly we’re otherwise in absolute agreement.
‘there is nothing more beautiful than a woman showing her baby before it is born’ – the second most beautiful is a woman feeding her baby naturally.
@ Matthew Huntbach,
I have worked with several tribal groups and the very notion of privacy is unknown. I can only speak of the groups that I have worked with, but life is lived communally. Homes themselves comprise of one room.
The women all wore long lengths of cloth wrapped and knotted around them, the way in which they wrapped and knotted the material varied between tribes, the closest description I can give is that they were worn in a similar fashion to saris but without the sari blouse and underskirt.
The mother’s lifted the upper swirl of material and attached their baby. To the observer, all that was on view was the back of the baby’s head as it suckled, the same view that an observer would get in the British Isles if a mother raised her blouse to feed her baby – the back of the suckling baby’s head. It is only when the baby is distracted or reaches toddlerhood that one might even get a flash of flesh.
Despite the women being some of the most malnourished in the world, there was 100% successful breast feeding . If the mother had a temporary problem, another nursing mother in the village took over the feeding, much as wet nurses were once used in Britain.
Anne
Matthew Huntbach, because someone paints something it does not make it the reality!
I am suggesting it indicates a different attitude when these paintings were made. Would such paintings have been made and used as part of worship and to decorate churches if what they portray were considered unacceptable to be done in public?
As for conservative Muslim countries (do any exist now?), I doubt very much women even there would bare their breasts in public in front of men.
Well, I remember reading about this from someone who went to Iran recently, and remarked that it was as I put it. Sure, some discretion is used (there are slits in the clothes worn), but public breastfeeding there is far more obviously done than it is here. I also remember reading about some Muslim place where if women were working in the field and men went by, the women would cover their faces with their clothes, thus exposing everything else, this considered the more polite thing to do. OK, this is less usual, but perhaps indicates the modern western attitude is not how things have been all time and all places.
For obvious reasons, I’m reluctant to try a web search to find evidence to prove my point, but from what I know from various sources, old pictures etc, the modern British attitude to breast-feeding, which means it is so rarely done in public that it becomes an issue when it is, is something that is historically and socially unusual.
Jayne Mansfield
If the mother had a temporary problem, another nursing mother in the village took over the feeding, much as wet nurses were once used in Britain.
Again, historically, and in many cultures to this day, what we now call “wet nursing” was standard practice. Indeed, the very word “nurse” used to mean just that, it did not need to be preceded by the term “wet”. It was such a usual thing that other aspects of being a nurse, which we now use the word for, became attached to it as subsidiary activities. The fact that we would now mostly regard this practice as very weird shows a change in attitude which is quiet recent.
@ Anne,
There is evidence of the type of women most likely to chose breast feeding in Britain, and yes they are more likely to be from higher social groups, older mothers (0ver 30) , more educated women in professional and managerial occupations living in the least deprived areas.
Why do you think this might be the case when it is irrefutable that a mothers milk is best for her baby and may be protective against future breast cancer?
Are non- middle class women built differently?