Kirsty Williams, the leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrats, has spoken in the National Assembly today calling for an anti-extremism strategy for Wales. This was in response to the news that two men from Cardiff had appeared in a video designed for recruiting jihadists in Iraq and Syria.
She said:
We have a proud record as a nation as a tolerant and open society that has long embraced other cultures and faiths. However, clearly Wales is not immune from the threats posed by extremism and radicalisation.
Two years ago the Wales CONTEST Board recognised that there were particular issues relating to increases in incidences of radicalisation here in Cardiff. The people of Wales need to know what exactly the Welsh Government has done to tackle these issues.
Last year, the UK Government set up the Tackling Extremism and Radicalisation Task Force to look into the issue. While this is welcome, this should be backed by a specific Welsh anti-extremism strategy to ensure that our communities remains safe.
People will of course be very worried and upset that men who have grown up here in Wales have resorted to joining extreme and dangerous groups. Not only do we need to remember that these men are very much in a minority, but we must also look at the potential causes that have led them to take these drastic measures.
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29 Comments
Good call, though the is surely a UK-wide issue rather than just a Welsh one.
I hope the anti-extremist strategy is not itself extremist. Mostly these boys will be going abroad for idealistic reasons, and won’t really know what they’ve let themselves in for. Being UK citizens, we owe them a duty of care and protection, even if they come back aggressive, But mostly they’ll come back traumatized rather than radicalized. Punishment, for example, would not necessarily be a good anti-extremist strategy. Censorship neither, since that hides rather than deals with issues.
Do these boys think of themselves as Welsh first or Muslim first? If there was a civil war in Wales, many Welsh around the globe would support one side or the other, and some would travel to Wales to fight. Would we condemn them?
@Richard
Of the three British jihadis identified in the video, only one might be described as a “boy”.
One of them is a 20 year old man who received offers from four universities to study medicine. He is plenty old enough and intelligent enough to know what he is doing and to be held responsible as an adult for his actions.
@Stuart Mitchell
Anyone who has passed the age of 40 or so knows that young boys of 20 or so are not that far from being in nappies. Many are still in the process of working out who they are. They make many mistakes and generally have very little idea of what they’re really doing. It’s pretty clear from their manner that the boys in the video are probably just like that. A strategy or policy that does not take account of this kind of reality is just going to make things worse.
@Richard
Anyone who knows people in their 20s knows otherwise.
I’d expect children as young as five to know that virtually everything in the 18 ISIS “tenets” I posted yesterday is just plain wrong. These men have no excuse.
@Stuart Mitchell
Gee, have you actually spoken to anyone as young as 5 about those things? There are plenty of confused people in this world, you included I think, and a starting point to managing their follies is to recognize that different people can be different.
Richard,
the average age of a British army soldier is 20. The strategy or policy that takes account of this reality is called basic training.
@Richard
So what parts, specifically, in the ISIS “doctrine” (http://www.longwarjournal.org/threat-matrix/archives/2014/06/_this_video_begins_with.php#) do you think a 20 year old bright enough to get in to medical school might be too young and naïve enough not to see is wrong?
In terms of age and education, this “boy” is the same profile as the average University Challenge contestant – hardly just out of nappies as you claim.
@Joe Bourke
A Christian should be more understanding of the complicated reality of human beings. Less panic and more understanding is needed.
A British Army soldier’s basic training does not equip people to make complex ethical judgments, it equips them to follow orders. The boys in the video are involved in making ethical judgments, however, in a confused way certainly, but that’s what they are. It’s what they’re talking about, if you listen.
The way to address the problems the problems effectively must involve reality, must avoid panic and prejudice, must recognize equality and “there but for the grace of God go I”, and must include looking at the processes by which those judgments are made.
@Stuart Mitchell
Have you actually read the list? Quite a lot would translate fairly easily to most any other religion, particularly to Christianity for much of its history. Item 1, for example, would seem consistent with medieval European history. Even item 3, which is the only one that speaks of killing, would translate easily to that age. And many UK voters would agree with the first half of item 18. The real problem and major characteristic of the list is its immaturity.
Richard,
William Pitt the Younger was British Prime Minister at 24. Mike Tyson was heavyweight champion of the world at 20.
An argument that a man of 20 is not that far from being in nappies is not going to be much use as some kind of mitigation, anymore than if they joined a gang running around Cardiff creating mayhem with assault rifles and grenades, on the basis of having made confused ethical judgements. There comes a time (legally 18) when we are all fully responsible for, and must bear the consequences, of our own actions.
Kirsty Williams has welcomed the set-up of the Tackling Extremism and Radicalisation Task Force and is calling for a a specific Welsh anti-extremism strategy . The proposals of the task force to counter radicalisation include:
•considering if there is a case for new civil powers, similar to the new anti-social behaviour powers, to target the behaviours extremists use to radicalise others
•considering if there is a case for new types of order to ban groups which seek to undermine democracy or use hate speech, when necessary to protect the public or prevent crime and disorder
•consulting on new legislation to strengthen the powers of the Charity Commission
•working with internet companies to restrict access to terrorist material online which is hosted overseas but illegal under UK law and help them with their continuing efforts to identify what material to include in family-friendly filters
•improving the process for the public to report extremist content online
•making delivery of the Channel programme, which supports individuals at risk of being radicalised, a legal requirement in England and Wales
•ensuring prisoners who have demonstrated extremist views in prison receive intervention and support on release
@Richard
We’re not talking about medieval history, we live in 2014.
Immaturity is not the worst aspect of the Isis doctrine. You may have noticed repeated use of the word “apostasy” in the tenets. What do you think the average Islamist jihadi thinks should happen to apostates? Hint: Some of the photos Isis posted of a mass killing last week were captioned: “apostates heading to their hole of doom”.
@Joe Bourke
Pitt and Tyson weren’t exactly average people. Didn’t Tyson serve time for rape? What odd heroes you have!
If Kirsty’s list isn’t based on an understanding of human beings, it’s unlikely to be effective.
Let’s leave a little room for some other people in this conversation!
“I hope the anti-extremist strategy is not itself extremist. Mostly these boys will be going abroad for idealistic reasons, and won’t really know what they’ve let themselves in for. Being UK citizens, we owe them a duty of care and protection, even if they come back aggressive,”
We owe them nothing. Their citizenship should be revoked, though doubtless that would be against their yooman rights so we will just welcome them back and watch them conspire to murder us.
You would make a very good Dhimmi.
@simon.
Thanks for entering this illuminating debate. Just to clarify, you are presenting a UKIP view, yes?
Not being rude, but just to clarify further, those boys in the video have made a daft video, ok, and we can even gather from it some clues about how to combat the daftness, but they haven’t yet been convicted of killing anyone, or even said they’ve done so, agreed on facts?
Having lived in Wales as a youngster it strikes me that I would have done anything to escape. Global Jihad wasnt an option back then though so I just moved to England where there are jobs and there is less overt racism.
@Alistair
I recall there was a story a couple of years ago about an asylum seeker who’d been told to live in Swansea, but then fled to London and tried to claim asylum from Wales because of all the racism he’d encountered there. I think he was sent back to Swansea.
@Richard Dean
You really are raising euphemism to an art form in this thread!
Here’s a picture of one of those “idealistic boys” (in his late 20s) acting a bit “daft” :-
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/06/23/article-0-1F03876E00000578-30_634x699.jpg
But then boys must have their toys.
@Stuart Mitchell
Change the caption a bit and you’d have a picture of one of Joe Bourke’s young British soldiers doing basic training and looking a bit daft!
@Richard Dean
Too much daftness in this thread. Time for bed.
Praise to Kirsty Williams. I said last week Lib Dems need to show they take terrorism seriously and this is what we need. No I don’t support right wing action, but we still need to defend ourselves. I can’t stand the concept of revenge and the cycle of violence that seems to have manifested, but some people are planning attacks now and we can’t just sit on our hands!
Here’s someone who seems to have some ideas about an anti-extremism strategy for Cardiff:
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/video/2014/jun/25/exclusive-video-reyaad-khan-isis-video
I don’t really hold out too much hope for the effectiveness of government orchestrated anti-radicalisation strategies. The state can take action where criminality is detected or is being planned, but is hard pressed to prevent the dissimulation of extremist ideology.
The Muslim communities in Britain have a problem with Islamism and need to directly engage with the problem.
There is a dichotomy between the peaceful and neighbourly Islam as practised by certain immigrant communities and the attitudes of the younger generation brought up in Britain. The latter are trapped between the conservative family based values of their parents and a radical image of violent Islamism which draws on those same conservative values whilst awarding them an exciting twist that feeds into a western teenage mind-set. It is obvious those lads on jihad are having the time of their lives casting off their inherited values of community as they adopt the brutal ways and uniforms of a death-cult. We have seen this before many times: the SS and Hitler Youth springs the most readily to mind as do the excesses in Russia in the aftermath of the October 1917 revolution.
Britain can rise to face this problem down, but only if the Muslim community comes out of denial and finds its voice to speak loudly and act firmly against radical propaganda and recruitment.
Can someone please explain why it is wrong for British Muslims to go to fight in foreign wars when it is considered right for the British state to give military or other support in favour of the same jihadis in those foreign countries?
I am of course referring to the British military aid in the form of airpower which helped overthrow the secular Gaddafi regime in Libya, and the hoped for bombing and the actual “non-lethal aid’ given to the Islamists opposing the secular Assad in Syria.
The Libya action met with a deafening silence by Lib Dems including Kirsty Williams, and the voting down of the Syria attack by Parliament met with cries of ‘ashamed to be British’ and the like
Tsar Nicholas,
it is what they do when they have had enough of foreign wars and want to bring their Jihad back here that is the problem for the UK – as this Quilliam foundation article notes http://www.quilliamfoundation.org/in-the-media/ghaffar-hussain-in-the-daily-beast-the-syrian-war-comes-home-to-europe/.
The Libya action was undertaken by Nato on the basis of a UN resolution. Non-lethal aid in Syria is to the Syrian National Coalition, recognised as the legitimate representative of the Syrian People by most of the Arab League, the EU, US, Turkey and the 100 country ‘Friends of Syria.’ The National Coalition occupies Syria’s seat in the Arab League.
@ Joe Bourke
I completely agree that murder, bombing, rapine and pillage is wrong when carried out in this country.
I just happen to think that it’s wrong when carried out elsewhere.
The UN resolution on Libya made a wrong action legal but not right. what we have in Libya now is a Hobbesian state of nature where the jihadis actions mean that life for the majority is ‘nasty, brutish and short.’
And whatever support was or is given for anti-Assad forces in Syria is effectively the same as supporting ISIS.
Tsar Nicholas,
Islamic terrorism is a problem the world over.
The UN security council is the only arbiter we have for when International military action is justified. Under Gaddafi, life for the majority of Benghazi residents was about to be very ‘nasty, brutish and short.’ At least Libya has the prospect of self-determination now. Whether they will go the way of Egypt – a hardline Islamic administration followed by a military coup – or follow Tunisia’s example in developing a new constitution and transition to a democratic government is yet to be seen.
I don’t think you can compare non-lethal support to groups of Syrian’s defending their lives against a brutal crackdown by a military dictatorship, with aid and support to foreign guerilla fighters bent on establishing a worldwide Islamic caliphate.
@Joe Bourke
Libya: The western powers exceeded their mandate to enforce a no-fly zone by bombing the civilian population and infrastructure, leading to the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent people. Libya is now a lawless state where the economy is in ruins and people have to struggle for their very existence. Your rosy picture of post-NATO Libya suggests that you rely too much on uncritical acceptance of what the mainstream media says.
Syria: The non-lethal aid that you are so happy about was given to the people who now form ISIS. They should have been allowed to die of cold and hunger before they could transfer their version of Jihadism to Iraq. Imagine if we had sent food parcels to beseiged SS troops in World War 2.
Assad may be brutal but his brutality pales when compared to the crucifixions, beheadings, mass graves and liver eating of the jihadis.
“Thanks for entering this illuminating debate. Just to clarify, you are presenting a UKIP view, yes?”
I am articulating the view of probably 80% of the population? If I am wrong (and obviously it is a hard statistic to exactly measure) show me the opinion poll data to contradict my assertion. No, for the sake of this argument we can safely agree that I represent the massive massive majority of opinion in this great nation of ours, across all ages, classes, creeds and ethnicities.
So it isn’t so much a UKIP view, as yet another example of UKIP articulating the national zeitgeist. Now tell me, as a representative of a political party wishing to win elections, why would you want to put yourself so against popular opinion on a matter which arouses such anger and visceral opinion? Doesn’t that make UKIP a serious party, and the Lib Dems (if you were in charge, clearly you aren’t) a joke party of protest??
“Not being rude, but just to clarify further, those boys in the video have made a daft video, ok, and we can even gather from it some clues about how to combat the daftness, but they haven’t yet been convicted of killing anyone, or even said they’ve done so, agreed on facts?”
Your naivity is almost touching. Are we to wait till these “daft boys” butcher a British soldier on our streets before we take action? Oh wait, that has already happened. Sigh.