Lamb and Farron make their second email pitches

Tim Gordon as Returning Officer in the Leadership election is sending out a series of emails to party members on behalf of each candidate.

We covered last week’s here.
There is information in the official email about when the ballot papers will be sent out:

You should receive your ballot paper by post around the last weekend in June. There will also be a copy of both candidates’ manifestos included with it.

Our ballot counters must receive your complete ballot paper by 2pm on July 15th for it to count.

To help you make your decision a number of hustings events are being held around the country further details can be found on our website.

Many thanks for participating in this important election.

Here are this week’s:

Norman Lamb

Do the Liberal Democrats have a future that matters? – Norman Lamb

Norman Lamb: Building a Progressive, Liberal Movement for Change

Do the Liberal Democrats have a future that matters?

We do.This is my vision – and I have the record to make it happen.

But, don’t take my word for it. The Independent has said I’m making the party relevant againAnd people from across our party and beyond are backing my campaign. I’m delighted that Shirley Williams and many of our former MPs are supporting me. Even the Labour aligned Mirror has talked of me “aiming to put us back in the premiere league”.

We must be audacious and ambitious. Let’s set our sights on being in government within a decade. This matters because ultimately our ambition must be to change people’s lives.

In the run up to the election I campaigned in over 40 constituencies and was staggered by the energy, resolve and passion of our members. Now we have thousands of new members, inspired by Nick Clegg’s passionate resignation speech. He articulated our liberal values. People heard a distinct liberal voice and listened for the first time in years.

This energy and these values must drive us to rebuild our party.

But if what we stand for is not understood, we cannot expect to win however hard we work.

Read my vision for our party here.

We have one great advantage. We live in a liberal age. If we do the right things, stick to our radical principles and open up our party to the wider liberal movement then we can recover, and indeed advance far faster than people expect.

I’ve spent my life fighting for the underdog. Working with ordinary people outside politics to improve their lives. From winning compensation for hundreds of servicewomen fired for being pregnant, to helping people suffering mental ill health get better access to treatment. I have put my liberal principles into action and achieved real change for people.

I was given trusted senior roles by the last three liberal leaders. I stood beside Charles Kennedy when he had the courage to speak out against the Iraq war. I know what it means to lead, sticking by your principles even when the going gets tough.

I will lead a bold and ambitious party determined to bring more power to individuals and their communities. Speaking up for the powerless and those without a voice. Passionate about Britain’s continued part in the EU. Fiercely protective of individual freedoms and intolerant of discrimination of any kind. And resolute that above all else we must end the gross inequality in this country and give every child the support they need to succeed in life.

This is a message that millions of voters want to hear. We must be their voice.

Will you join me?

Best wishes,

Norman Lamb

p.s. If you share my values and my vision, thenplease join me in this journey.

Read Norman’s vision for our party here.

Watch endorsements from Julian Huppert; Stephen Williams; Lynne Featherstone; David Heath; Bob Russell; Sarah Ludford; Jenny Willott; Liz Barker; Tessa Munt; Olly Grender; Kishwer Falkner & many more.

The Independent: “Norman Lamb has made the perfect case for the continued existence of his party”.

Facebook NormanLambLibDem Twitter @normanlamb Email [email protected]

Tim Farron

A fresh start

Rebuilding from the grassroots

In the wake of the disastrous election result, the party needs more than a pick me up – it needs a clear plan to rebuild from the bottom up. That’s why I have set for myself the target of recruiting of 100,000 members by the time of the next election.

But to recover from here will take more than a larger party: we need to build a liberal movement to protect and enhance Britain’s liberal values of openness, inclusivity and tolerance which so many of us share but which are very much under threat. That’s my mission.

Inspiration and Perspiration!
My 10-point plan to rebuild the Liberal Democrats

Our party will be rebuilt from the bottom up, not just through old-fashioned community politics, but through empowering each of our members and ensuring that have a say in policy, strategy and campaigning. So where do we start?

Tim Farron with councillors

  1. Rebuild the liberal case: We must be the voice of liberal Britain. I will hold a ‘festival of ideas’ to debate the future of our party, without motions or votes, so that every one of our party’s supporters, including our 16,000 new members, can make their voices heard.
  2. Grow: In recent weeks, we have begun to rebuild the party. I will aim to grow party membership to over 100,000 by 2020, taking direct and personal responsibility for the membership drive, building on my record as President.
  3. Become a movement: But membership growth is just the start. We need to be more than a political party; we need to be a political movement, with shared values at our core. As a first step, the Liberal Democrats will proudly lead the campaign to ensure Britain remains an active and engaged member of the European Union.
  4. Win again: The goal must be net gains at all levels. If you want to win I want to help. From Council Ward to Parliamentary constituency we must focus ruthlessly on winning seats. We will provide candidates with training, support, a listening ear and a community of like-minded individuals.
  5. Harness the enthusiasm: Concentrating resources on winning must go hand in hand with action at every level. We have to campaign on Liberal issues on every occasion. Candidates need to be shop window in promoting our Liberal vision of society and demonstrating our concern for our community and our care for individuals.
  6. Include everyone: Lip service and expressions of hope are not enough – on my watch we will change. That means showing leadership so at all levels my team will be representative. Our candidates in 2020 will be 50-50 men and women and 10% BAME with support from all my leadership team for those who might put themselves forward to stand. We have no choice but to take expansive, positive action across the board.
  7. Unite: We are stronger together than we can ever be apart. Forget factions: we are all liberals and we must all pull together. I will therefore continue to fight a wholly positive leadership campaign and look forward to working closely with Norman and making the most of his, and his supporters’, great expertise, whatever the outcome.
  8. Make a difference: Our strength in the Commons maybe diminished but we will continue to punch about our weight wherever Liberal Democrats have representation. In particular, I hope the Lords will be in the vanguard of the defence of Liberalism and I will work closely with our peers and on campaigning.
  9. Professional: We need to revamp the Party machine so that our professional operation is focused on policy development, fundraising, campaigning and marketing. In all this I will lead HQ from the front, setting the tone for an inclusive, dynamic and modern organisation.
  10. Get out of Westminster: For the next five years our main strength will not be in Parliament but across the country, in the nations and regions of Britain. I will ensure that the liberal voice will be heard in key parliamentary debates, however, I see my job as supporting you on the ground. I will make this my priority.

Tim Talks

Tim Talks Foreign Affairs

In this video Tim explains his attitude to foreign policy

And Tim has also set out his views on increasing diversity in the party – described by blogger Mark Pack as “impressive”

Tim Listens

A key part of my plan is to hear from all our members about how we rebuild the party from the bottom up.

That’s why I am organising a series of ‘Tim Listens’ meetings around the country, in addition to the formal party hustings and dozens of local visits, a process I will continue if elected as leader.

To find out if there is a Tim Listens event near you, please click here

Our strongest voice

“Tim has the ability to connect with people from all different backgrounds, in all different parts of this country and he is the right person to lead the liberal revival this country needs.”
Greg Mulholland, MP for Leeds North-West

Tim has the passion and communication skills to reach out and press the reset button to win back the nation’s trust. He’s not afraid to stand up for Liberal values and safeguard our children’s future. I believe he will make an excellent all embracing leader.
Baroness Floella Benjamin

Tim has all the skills and drive to reach out to our existing members, those who have recently joined – and those who will join when they know how important it is to have Lib Dems defending the values we all hold dear.
Catherine Bearder MEP South East England

“I believe Tim Farron is the leader the Liberal Democrats need at this time. We’ve got to build the party from the ground up if there’s one thing that Tim Farron is excellent at, it’s is ground level politics.”
Lord Brian Paddick, Liberal Democrats Candidate for Mayor of London, 2008 and 2012

To volunteer to support Tim’s campaign please click here.


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This entry was posted in News.


  • Matthew Huntbach 17th Jun '15 - 1:44pm

    Norman Lamb

    Now we have thousands of new members, inspired by Nick Clegg’s passionate resignation speech.

    That’s the decider for me. I shall be voting for Tim Farron.

  • Peter Watson 17th Jun '15 - 3:01pm

    “Now we have thousands of new members, inspired by Nick Clegg’s passionate resignation”
    Now that’s more like it.

  • Conor McGovern 17th Jun '15 - 3:21pm

    One of Clegg’s problems was that he went after soft Tories and lost touch with Lib Dem members and voters. Tim Farron (for all the talk of becoming the small business party, dropping a 50p rate and changing our name) has a core vote strategy aimed at ex-Lib Dem voters and doesn’t reach out far enough to the wider electorate. I was undecided, but Norman’s making the right calls on widening our support, among Liberals of all parties and none – as well as reconnecting with our values – and gets my vote for leader.

  • Eddie Sammon 17th Jun '15 - 3:35pm

    I like Norman’s desire to get back into government and Tim’s call to “forget factions”, but I feel something is missing and maybe it could be resolved by creating an appointed leadership council. Appointed by the leader alone. It would add more experience and gravitas to things.

    There are some very experienced voices, such as Ming Campbell, that I think need to be able to make a regular contribution.

  • Stephen Hesketh 17th Jun '15 - 3:56pm

    Conor McGovern 17th Jun ’15 – 3:21pm
    “… Tim Farron (for all the talk of becoming the small business party, dropping a 50p rate and changing our name) has a core vote strategy aimed at ex-Lib Dem voters and doesn’t reach out far enough to the wider electorate. ”

    Ah so that must be a different Tim Farron to the one standing to be the next leader of the Lib Dems and who has Tweeted “I believe we must reach out to the millions of people who are #liberal in outlook & turn them into @libdems ”

    I have seen Tim campaigning – he is very effective in reaching the people and places others don’t.

    And by the way, Tim publically stated on the Today programme that he did not intend to change our name. Another red herring.

  • Conor McGovern 17th Jun '15 - 4:14pm

    Stephen, I’m sure Ed Miliband said similar things about reaching out to the millions of people who share Labour values, but it didn’t stop millions of people opting for someone else when it came to the election. Will Tim convert Labour voters, Tory voters, SNP voters and non-voters into Liberal voters who back our values or will he build up an anti-Tory protest vote? Even before Clegg made errors on tuition fees, austerity, the bedroom tax and the rest, a good chunk who had seen us as the anti-Tory protest party ditched us when we entered coalition. Tim’s strategy would gain us support quickly but would it be a solid base if we want to implement our policies in government?

  • @Conor McGovern +1

    Trying to assemble an anti-anything block will lead to votes evaporating like puddles after a tropical storm once the decision is taken to go into government.

  • Stephen Hesketh 17th Jun '15 - 4:58pm

    I think right now we need to start building support and votes otherwise we are likely to be all but goners in May 2020.

    None of us know how it will turn out but clearly the Kennedy strategy was somewhat more successful than the Clegg one. Anyone not accepting or wishing to rewrite this does the Liberal Democrats and Liberalism itself a huge disservice.

    In my opinion, it is Tim who has been the most consistent in sticking to Liberal Democrat principles and dare I say it, pledges.

    It is he who led a team in converting a safe Tory seat into a Lib Dem one – causing me to believe he must know something of building a team, campaigning and converting protest, Conservative and Labour voters into Lib Dem supporters and voters.

    Norman may make the better minister, I have no idea, but right now and for the next 5-10 years we are in a process of rebuilding the party and our vote. And there I do have a very good idea as to the better qualified man.

    We must to elect the person most likely to attract supporters and convert them into committed voters.

    I agree with you that “Tim’s strategy would gain us support quickly”; that is exactly what we need to do – and then build out from that initial bridgehead.

    My fear is no bridgehead, no Lib Dems by 2025ish.

    We simply can not afford to make a mistake that would make such an outcome even a possibility.

  • Stephen Hesketh 17th Jun '15 - 5:01pm

    Coner, apologies. I have learnt to write in Word and then copy and paste into the LDV comments area. What I haven’t quite mastered is copy and pasting the entire piece … my reply should have started with your name!

  • Conor, it is about perception, not just what is said, but how it is said. We are faced with an enormous electoral task. With the greatest respect Norman Lamb will have very little appeal in the conurbations of the North, The Midlands, Wales and Scotland, he is far too much associated with the coalition, Clegg etc, both matters which were a turn off for the vast majority of our supporters in those areas, loads of whom had voted for the party year in and year out. The result was fourth and fifth places and hundreds of lost deposits, a result overall far far worse than anything we have had since the 1860’s. They are who we need to get back and someone not directly associated with Clegg or the coalition is required over the next 2 – 3 years to lead a renewal, someone who comes with some sort of clean sheet. The first task is to see off The Greens who are now well entrenched in previous Lib Dem seats such as Isle of Wight and Bristol West. Reminding the world of Nick Clegg is not what they want to hear.
    Norman Lamb would be a good number 2. He does not seem to be an an inspirational leader.

  • Matthew Huntbach 17th Jun '15 - 8:18pm

    Conor McGovern

    Will Tim convert Labour voters, Tory voters, SNP voters and non-voters into Liberal voters who back our values or will he build up an anti-Tory protest vote?

    Well, if you think there’s a contradiction, that suggests you think our values are pro-Tory. Aren’t all you types who tried to make us into a “me too” to the Tories EVER going to admit that you almost destroyed our party? Or do you want to carry on until you completely destroy it?

  • George Potter 17th Jun '15 - 8:50pm

    @Conor McGovern

    Norman Lamb and Tim Farron have something in common. Both took Tory safe seats and turned them into Lib Dem strongholds.

    However, of the two, Tim is the only one who got over 50% of the vote in May and who represented the only area in England where we actually won the most votes in the European election in 2014.

    I don’t know about you but to me that would suggest that Tim’s much better at reaching out beyond our core vote than Norman is.

  • “It is he who led a team in converting a safe Tory seat into a Lib Dem one”

    I’m a suppporter of Tim but when Norman first fought North Norfolk the Tory majority was 15,000 and they ahd 53% of the vote. When Tim fought W&L first the Tory majority was 4,500 and they had 42% of the vote. They both had similar results in 1992 so I think they can both legitimately claim this point.

  • Norman Lamb ” I know what it means to lead, sticking by your principles even when the going gets tough.”

    Really? What about breaking his pledge? That wasn’t a very principled thing to do. Tell the voters one thing to get their vote then do the opposite.

  • Conor McGovern 17th Jun '15 - 10:56pm

    Matthew, the key part is the ‘protest party’ bit, an anti-Labour protest party would be just as bad. It’s a stretch to say that makes me pro-Tory. I may have decided not to vote for Tim, but to suggest that makes me one of those who tried to ‘destroy the party’ in entering coalition, when I was 14 at the time and the members backed it, is also a bit of a stretch.

  • Conor McGovern 17th Jun '15 - 11:09pm

    For what it’s worth, I’m sure both Tim and Norman would put everything into reviving the party and gaining support, but it looks to me like the support base would be stronger and more sustainable under Norman, especially in the event of a future hung parliament. There were brutal lessons from the 2015 election, but what about the lessons of the anti-Tory votes we lost straight away in 2010? Anti-Labour votes would be lost if we went with Labour as well. The two main parties don’t just look for anti-X voters and when they do you see the result Ed Miliband got. They connect with voters of all colours and none with popular policies rooted in their values, and so should we.

  • Eddie Sammon 18th Jun '15 - 12:48am

    It’s time for Lib Dems to start panicking. The great party will be finished unless Lamb and Farron stop doing things like cheering mass immigration and banging on about secondary political issues.

  • If the received ‘wisdom’ is that all of the voters the Lib Dems used to have before 2010 are to be written off as unrecoverable, I have to wonder exactly where these sages expect a surge of new Lib Dem voters to come from. UKIP perhaps?

  • John Tilley 18th Jun '15 - 6:13am

    Norman Lamb
    “…Now we have thousands of new members, inspired by Nick Clegg’s passionate resignation speech.”

    Yes and if only he had resigned a lot earlier we could have had those new members before the general election and they could have done something useful to defend hard working Liberal Democrat MPs.

    Unfortunately Norman Lamb and others were too busy at the time being a junior minister in a Conservative dominated government to think very much about the future of the Liberal Democrats.

    I have been asking a few long-standing members how many of them would have listed Norman Lamb in their top five suggestions for the next Leader – if they had been asked 3 years ago.
    So far the most common answer from longstanding members has been _” I did not know who Norman Lamb was 3 years ago.”

  • Stephen Hesketh 18th Jun '15 - 7:47am

    George Poter and Hywel

    Thank you. I stand enlightened!

    Also agree with George’s subsequent point regarding the evidence suggesting Tim to be the better of the two at attracting support from previous supporters of other parties.

  • @George Potter unfortunately most of England isn’t like the Lake District. Norman’s more southerly constituency is a better analogy for the sort of seats in the South that we are going to need to (re)take.

  • @David-1 more people didn’t vote than voted for Labour and nearly as many as voted Tory. There are plenty of votes to be had without chasing fragile left wing switchers.

  • Matthew Huntbach 18th Jun '15 - 10:33am

    Conor McGovern

    Matthew, the key part is the ‘protest party’ bit

    So you think there is nothing to protest about? That all in Britain and British politics is fine and wonderful?

    The British political system is rotten. There is a widespread antipathy to it, people just don’t like it, don’t know how to use it, feel it is out of touch, feel they want something different though they’re not quite sure what. We should be leading the protest against it to offer something different. But you say that’s bad.

    Now, the real problem is that the words “protest party” and “party of government” were used by the outgoing leadership as code words for something else. I am fed up with this use of code words, and you seem to be doing the same. What the words about not being a protest party mean, uncoded, is “staying on the political right and kow-towing to Tory propaganda as pumped out by the right-wing press”.

  • I haven’t received any of these emails…

  • Conor McGovern 18th Jun '15 - 11:39am

    Matthew, I agree we should be campaigning against things like welfare cuts, homelessness, war and the voting system but people won’t listen unless we give a positive, credible, radical answer on these issues rather than sniping at the sidelines.
    It would be great to see both candidates outlining a vision on things like the economy, immigration, health and welfare as well as the discussion so far on human rights, drugs, assisted dying etc.

  • @Conor “It would be great to see both candidates outlining a vision on things like the economy, immigration, health and welfare ”

    Totally agree.

    To be fair to Tim, he has spoken about the current situation in the Med with some passion and compassion, but we need to go much further and consider how we are going to deal more generally with managed migration and the causes of migration.

  • nvelope2003 18th Jun '15 - 1:03pm

    If the press are supporting one of the candidates then you can be sure it is not for the benefit of the Liberal Democrat Party. They supported Nick Clegg until he started to seem a threat to the 2 party system then they turned all their vitriol on him. Norman Lamb will be ridiculed because he looks old, broke his promise on tuition fees and was a minister in the coalition. The fact that he is an admirable man, like Sir Menzies Campbell, will not do him a bit of good.

    I am a bit concerned that so many of the new members joined because they liked Nick Clegg or at least his resignation speech. If they joined because he had resigned that would be less worrying. Clegg was also a good person but he and his closest associates, who include Norman Lamb, are seen as toxic by some voters. Their decisions in Government show that they grossly misjudged their impact on the voters. If you claim to be the party that keeps its promises it does not look too good if you break them as soon as you get into Government. If you do not intend to keep your word then do not make any promises and if you do make a promise then you must keep it no matter what the short term consequences may be. I hope that Mr lamb accepts that but he does not say so. He might make a good Prime Minister but we are not going to form the next Government so we need someone who is a good campaigner. As regards his views on drugs they are probably sensible but elections are not won on the issue of legalising narcotics.

  • This hasn’t been brought up yet, but it’s worth mentioning that Farron’s running a very solid campaign. Anyone else noticed that this entire contest is about Farron, rather than Lamb? The discussion points are things like “Farron is too Christian”, “Farron wants to change our name”.

    Plus, Farron’s got a solid website, he’s laying out commitments and principles in clear writing (I especially like his aim to increase membership to 100,000, but I don’t like the 50/50 gender ratio because I think it’s going to lead to a lot of drama in the future) and, like others have mentioned, he’s been an excellent campaigner both locally and in the North West when everyone else was busy losing.

  • Conor.: one just cannot see Mr Lamb getting votes back in Manchester Gorton, Liverpool Garston and Wavertree, Edinburgh South, Birmingham Yardley, Glasgow North, Colne Vally, Rochdale, Oldham East, St Helens, Nottingham, Derby, Newport East, Durham/Newcastle area and the Bristol seats , just as a few examples of conurbation seats where we were strong. Dependable and reliable, qualities for a good number 2. Whereas Farron seems a to have a general appeal.
    He is too associated with the coalition and Cleggie. Generally turn off topics in these areas

  • David Evans 18th Jun '15 - 7:42pm

    TCO – I think you will find that a substantial majority of those who did not vote in 2015, do not vote ever. Without a massive issue (like independence in Scotland) chasing them is a total waste of time. Indeed the one thing that anyone who has run more than one campaign tells you is just don’t bother. Those who don’t want to believe it, try it once but soon learn and stop. By all means if you personally want to try it, do so in a local campaign and see how far it gets you. But don’t try to persuade people that this is a counter argument to trying to get back those people who voted for us in the past.

    This is another example of where listening to those who have done it before and succeeded will save a lot of time and heartache, except for those who know it all without listening.

  • nvelope2003 18th Jun '15 - 9:49pm

    The non voters who are about 25% -35% of the electorate are not always the same as the none of the above protest voters who like to make a point of annoying the government parties by voting for the most prominent third party. Historically this has been the Liberal/Liberal Democrat Party since about the 1950s but recently they had moved to UKIP because they thought that would upset the 2 big parties even more and in any case the Liberals had become a governing party.
    Recent local government by elections seem to have shown a sharp drop in support for UKIP, probably because it did not gain any extra seats and seems to be prone to scandals so not likely to be much of a threat to the government parties. Where will they go now ? The Greens were a bit of a damp squib after all the talk of the Green surge and did not overtake the Liberal Democrats as all the Conservative fanatics were predicting. Oh dear what a pity !

    Conservative MPs are now boasting that all that extra money promised for transport and communications in the South West will all be cancelled as the Liberal Democrats have been wiped out there and there is no need for the Conservatives to offer the West Country any bribes so there should be an opportunity to recover some lost ground there perhaps.

  • Matthew Huntbach 19th Jun '15 - 1:04pm


    If the press are supporting one of the candidates then you can be sure it is not for the benefit of the Liberal Democrat Party. They supported Nick Clegg until he started to seem a threat to the 2 party system then they turned all their vitriol on him.

    There is a very standard pattern where the right-wing and elitist press (second phrase added to include the Guardian) urge our party to take a particular direction and drop hints that if we do we will get more sympathetic coverage from them. Mostly it’s about getting rid of the old beards-and-sandals activists and their leftish attitudes and becoming a more conventional “party of government”. The party does it, but the more sympathetic coverage never comes.

    Poor Nick Clegg was, of course, very much part of this: he was put forward from the start as the “best” candidate for leadership in terms of what the right-wing and elitist press think is best (which is usually the opposite from what is actually best, because it comes from a viewpoint which is entirely trapped in the Westminster Bubble). Most of the time he dutifully did what they were urging him to do, and perhaps really believed what they said. But it never came about, he was still torn to pieces by them at the end.

  • nvelope2003 20th Jun '15 - 9:43pm

    Dr Huntbach : Absolutely spot on. Even Paddy Ashdown fell for it and he does seem to have a silly habit of promising to eat his hat when he could have waited an hour to see what was happening. Sometimes I despair of not just our leaders but even those of other parties who seem to have an unerring ability to say the wrong thing. Hey ho.

  • Ed Miliband thought that what Brown had done was irrelevant to his campaign. It was five years ago, and Ed Miliband had a quite different pitch to make to the voters. The Tories proved him wrong. They insisted on harking back to 2010, and blaming Miliband for things which Brown had done all those years ago. The accusations were unfair, and it was unfair to direct them to Miliband – but who said politics was fair? Lynton Crosby, who wouldn’t recognise a straight arrow if one hit him on the nose, played it unfair and played it clever. What Labour did in 2010 sank Miliband in 2015.

    In 2020, history will repeat itself. If the Lib Dems are led by a coalitionist who celebrated Nick Clegg’s defiant (“I was right”) speech of resignation, then the Labour and Tory campaigners will not cease reminding voters about the Coalition. They will paint the Lib Dems as the successors and inheritors of Clegg – incompetent, dishonest, pledge breaking, untrustworthy. The Lib Dems will, just like Ed Miliband, see a repeat humiliation.

    If the Lib Dems are led in a new direction, by a leader who did not vote for tuition fees, by a leader who never joined the Coalition government, then things may be better. It is not a given that they will be. The new leader will have to use the five years before 2020 to develop a distinctive position. He will succeeed only if he quietly but decisively repudiates the Tory coalition and all its works in due course, and makes it clear that he stand s for something entirely different. If he can do that, he might succeed in regaining support. It will probably take more than one GE for him to make real progress, such is the toxicity of the reputation he must overcome. But it is the Lib Dems’ best hope.

  • @David Allen “repudiates the Tory coalition and all its works”

    If you’re looking for Farron to do this you’re going to be very disappointed.

  • @Matthew Huntbach what is the “elitist press”?

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