Here is Tim Farron on the BBC News Channel talking about the need to call out the Leave campaign for its lies – including the one emblazoned on its bus which has been debunked by just about everybody.
We potentially face the prospect of leaving the EU because of a prospectus of dishonesty peddled by the Leave Campaign.
I am determined to fight a positive campaign about how much more prosperous and prestigious we are if we stay in the EU, we can’t allow Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and Nigel Farage to peddle a series of what are basically lies.
He called leaving the EU “an appalling act of self damage.”
He cited “every serious economist I could think of” and respected bodies like the Institute of Fiscal Studies as evidence that we should stay in.
He also urged everyone to register to vote – particularly young people – to protect their own futures.
Watch his interview here.
40 Comments
I have suggested to the National Campaign, not the party one, that Farron takes over fronting the Remain campaign on the media. Think it could swing things in the last week rather like Steel taking over from Jenkins did in 1983.
“We potentially face the prospect of leaving the EU because of a prospectus of dishonesty peddled by the Leave Campaign”
Tim just doesn’t seem to understand that there are a lot of people who just want out. They are not listening to the stuff coming out of either camp, they are not being conned, they have made up their minds and want out.
Of course there are some people who are impervious to reason, but there are many who are genuinely undecided and Tim is quite rightly demolishing some of the fictions being peddled by Brexit
This would be all well and good if Remain weren’t “embroidering” the facts themselves. The recent Treasury Committee all-party report made it crystal clear that neither campaign can claim the high moral ground here.
Leave are clearly being misleading when they say we pay £350m per week, but so are Remain when they come up with ludicrously low figures like £120m – which they justify by claiming that the EU spends some of the money we give it in Britain. This is a new definition of “not paying”. If the British people paid (say) £100bn in income tax, and the government then spent that money within Britain, it would clearly be absurd to claim that the British people never actually paid that amount of income tax in the first place; but this is what Remain’s argument amounts to.
The true figure for the amount we pay appears to be around £250m per week.
Opinion polls have swung from solidly in favour of Remain, to too close to call. That means that people are changing their minds and/or the undecideds are making up their minds. If this is happening on the back of dishonest claims by the Leave camp such as the £350m lie, then it needs to be robustly challenged.
Whatever the true cost of how much we are giving to the EU -and it is a lot of money- why can we not be trusted to spend it as we see fit? This spurious argument that we get some back so that’s OK just does not hold water.
david Sorry not “not trusted”, but some objectives are supranational, so surely it is for a wider group to decide how some of this is spent?
Yes, malc, but those people who “just want out” are not going to win it for Out. They are the core vote, but there aren’t enough to win it on their own. We just have to accept, as we would with hardline Thatcherites in a GE, that we are simply not going to win them over.
The leave campaign are lying on lots of areas, but if we brexit will the Lib Dems respect the will of the people or try to play legalist illiberal constitutional nitpicking and try to create brexit in name only?
I wouldn’t usually feel the need to ask, but we know the Lib Dems have had a cavalier approach to democracy this parliament with their use of the Lords at every opportunity, so I wouldn’t put it past the party and there are news reports going around that this is effectively what pro remain MPs are planning.
Hi Tim13, just talking and listening to people. We are losing it, big time, middle of the road Labour voters going to Leave. Staggered me.
We have to prepare for what follows. Will Parliament reject the result, it is only advisory after all. If so there will be some chaos, assume the Cons split for a time maybe a new government will get a programme agreed, say a Labour, SNP, Welsh Nats, some Irish, theGreen, and govern as a minority as happened in Canada recently and of course Scotland. We would be advised to keep out and just vote on each programe content. As an opposition party might work out well for us.
Eddie, what is ‘brexit in name only’?
Given that there is actually no agreed Leave campaign definition of what ‘leaving the EU’ entails, it is hard to be certain about what people are voting ‘for’ only what they are voting ‘against’
Are you saying that in the event of an exit, it would be illegitimate for the representatives of the people in the UK parliament to attempt to negotiate a deal that preserved some of what they perceive as the advantages of our current situation?
Or are you saying that only people who campaigned for ‘out’ should be allowed to negotiate the terms of ‘out’?
Hi Matt (Bristol), I’m saying If there is no material change then the deal by parliament will be illegitimate.
People can recognise what they like, but I won’t be recognising anything that doesn’t reasonable respect the vote.
I’m still voting remain, but referendums cannot only be respected if people get the result they want.
Stuart,
The point is that Leave are trying to work out an amount we can spend if we get our contribution back… The net amount is about £8billion, so that is £154 million per week. They certainly cannot use the rebate (since we already spend that), so £350 million is just a plain lie. As you say, £250 million is our actually tax payment. But they can only use the money the EU spends on farming, research, regional development etc if they explain that all those areas are going to be cut (which of course they don’t). Even when challenged Boris rounds £8 billion up to £10 billion..
I agree though that Remain (and in particular Cameron and Osbourne) are throwing spurious figures around like crazy, but at least these are extrapolations (which both sides are making) rather than hard facts like the £350 million and the existence of a veto on Turkey joining the EU
I think talk of not respecting the result of the referendum will increase the likelihood of a leave vote BTW. It is probably being spread by the Leave camp…
Leavers say we can take back our borders, we have them. Re migrants coming over. The Daily Mail in the past had 2 articles about migrants in the back of lorries, they were caught by the law stating lorry drivers have responsibilities or be fined etc. The BRITISH crooks smuggling guns , I do not think this was just a lucky catch,our security DOES have our borders. The economy, countries will do business with us. America TTIP Europe will be first on the US agenda after all 200million customers are more than 60, we will be at the back of the queue Other countries ie Australia are doing large deals again we will be at the back of the queue and so on. the EU is not democratic, when only 24% of a countries voters can elect our government ‘for the people by the people’ that rings a bit hollow to me.
Total annual UK tax revenue – £600,000 M (ONS, 2015). EU contribution, £250M per week, so £12,500M per year. Hence, about 2% of our tax revenues go to the EU, and about half of that small EU contribution comes back to the UK when the EU spends its money. Small, small, small beer. Why are we not shouting this?
Whatever nonsense is peddled , Tim is thankfully not one doing so ! Very good piece and he needs more coverage , in debates for a change ! But , a couple or so years older than the man , as I am , not keen on the phrase , “older people , my age and upwards “!
@Nick Baird “If this is happening on the back of dishonest claims by the Leave camp such as the £350m lie, then it needs to be robustly challenged.”
But if it is happening because of the behaviour of the Remain camp – which it certainly is in my case – then the way that message is presented needs to be reconsidered.
Overwhelmingly the Remain message is that this country and its leaders are too rubbish to succeed outside the EU. I would prefer to live in a strong UK that chooses to exert itself within the EU rather than the pitiful one, clinging to nanny, that is characterised by the Remain campaign.
This Remain line is interspersed with personal abuse of the Brexit leaders (I can’t believe I’ve been made to feel sorry for some of those people!).
And then, despite the Remain campaign supporting an approach to immigration that discriminates between different nationalities, all those with concerns about uncontrolled migration within the EU are crudely painted as closet (or overt) racists.
The positive benefits of remaining in the EU need to be explained on a personal level. If people are worried about their employment prospects because of immigration, then they will not be persuaded by being told that their sacrifice is good for the economy. Nor will it reassure them to be told that more affluent people can travel and work abroad, rent out houses to foreign workers, find cheaper and more experienced workers, etc.
Tell people exactly why it is brilliant to be in the EU, why the future in the EU is bright, and maybe they’ll choose to Remain.
@Peter Watson
I am firmly in the Remain camp, but despair at the poor campaign. I would love to see some positive campaigning while there is still time instead of each side predicting the end of the world……
Something I have pointed out before, based on actual facts, is that there is absolutely no evidence that being in the EU has held us back in any way. We have the world’s 5th biggest economy despite being only the 22nd largest by population. We have low (by current standards) unemployment at about 5.1%, virtually the same as the USA. Both of those are after being in the EU for over 40 years, and following a major recession.
Regarding immigration – Australia, with it’s much-lauded “points-based” system has higher unemployment than us at 5.8%.
Tim is right to tell it as he sees it and he was being questioned about Boris’s statements not anything else. What happens whenever the Conservatives are in a tight election they automatically throw truth and reason out of the window to achieve the victory they desire. As they are ‘leading’ both campaigns it should be no surprise that the nonsense is all pervading, that politics and politicians will be viewed as ‘all corrupt liars’ and whichever result we get it will be based on flummery.
The prospect of a minority pro Eu Tory Government led by Cameron propped up by the SNP is quite intriguing.
Given his main campaign theme in Hallam was to frighten the leafy suburbs with a Miliband Government propped up by the SNP – according to Councillor Joe Otten – it will be interesting to see which way Nick Clegg jumps.
Meanwhile, I find the Referendum campaign in general about as inspiring as the new Top Gear.
Tim and others need to start telling us what a future EU may look like. Is the aim to be a United States of Europe? Will there be an EU Army? Will more country’s join? Is unlimited immigration from the EU here for good? Or will it be – as Nick Clegg said – pretty much the same as it is now. If the “in” side do have a vision for the future they are not getting it across. Personal attacks on Johnson & co and all their “figures” are fine, but I’m not sure that on there own it’s enough. In many ways I think the “in” side are being every bit as dishonest as the “leave” side.
Peter Watson is right to say: “Overwhelmingly the Remain message is that this country and its leaders are too rubbish to succeed outside the EU. I would prefer to live in a strong UK that chooses to exert itself within the EU rather than the pitiful one, clinging to nanny, that is characterised by the Remain campaign.”
So would I. But that UK is not on offer. As malc surmises, all we are promised is that it “will be – as Nick Clegg said – pretty much the same as it is now.” Cameron’s ‘reform’ amounted to less than nothing. And we, as a Party, are very happy with the undemocratic nature of the EU, as it enables policies that we like but which people in the UK would never vote for in a month of Sundays to be railroaded through.
I’m disappointed that the only research I’ve seen showed that just 15% of Lib Dem voters are for Leave, but it’s a lot more than you’d guess from most comments on this forum.
To my mind the ‘leavers’ want us to leave the EU on the ‘Titanic’…
Would any here sail on a ‘ship’ captained by Johnson, with Gove as Chief Engineer and IDS as Cook?
A ‘ship’ with no defined course/destination, no idea of the ‘mechanisms’ to get us there and no idea if the existing stores will last until we get ‘somewhere’ else…
“Tim just doesn’t seem to understand that there are a lot of people who just want out. They are not listening to the stuff coming out of either camp, they are not being conned, they have made up their minds and want out.”
I think he does. The people that need to be won over are not those people but those who are still unsure or currently pro-leave but are not resolute in that. In broad terms they are sympathetic to leave but realise that there will be risks and uknowns if they do so. The message to those people needs at least in large part to be “when you vote on Thursday – what will you wake up to on Friday?”
Swing voters decide referendums just as much as they do elections.
My worry is that there is a long history of pro-EU people who have a quasi-religious belief that they are right which means they see “converting” strong antis as a cause in itself and see the campaign through that prism.
@David – a recent poll for ICM combined referendum voting intention with UK party voting intention. It came up with 28% of Lib Dems supporting “leave”, but the sample was obviously small as the LD’s were only at 7% support of the 1004 people questioned.
Hywel
I agree that swing voters will decide this referendum, but I’m not sure that many will worry about what they wake up to the morning after. Just about everyone knows sterling will be weaker, the stockmarkets will drop and the “in” campaigners will be telling everyone that the end is nigh. They know in the short-term it could be bad and a lot of hard work will be required, but they appear confident of the medium to long-term and who knows they could be right.
I think Tim Farron is honourable man and I don’t like many of the Leave campaigners, but I’m in the Leave camp and I resent being told why I am voting out by people who don’t bother to ask me.
I’m voting out because I don’t think we need big unaccountable layers of bureaucracy and government that very few British citizens can be bothered to vote for and which even less of them can name the representatives they were expected to elect. Also with one costly military mistake after another I actively want to reduce Britain’s role on the world stage. But mainly I want to make politicians more accountable to the electorate by refocusing politics away from international and global concerns. In other words I have come to terms with being a little Islander and a bit of an isolationist at heart.
Malc – Most national elections are decided by people worrying about what will happen the “morning” after – think fears of Kinnock in 92, Miliband in 2015.
Glenn – I respect your views. But in terms of the tactics of this referendum you’ve already made your mind up in a fairly firm way. In crude terms it doesn’t matter what the campaigns say to you – you aren’t for changing.
However there are about 10-15% of undecided plus maybe about 10% of soft support in each camp (this is a figure based entirely on my own opinion BTW!) Those are the people that both sides will be targeting.
I think Tim comes across well. Remain could indeed use him more widely.
I confess that I’ve pretty much sat the referendum out: the Stronger IN has alienated me with its message that leaving would be such a disaster – I don’t believe them and they aren’t fighting for why we’d want to be in anyway. And the Lib Dem InTogether campaign talking about how wonderful the EU is and full of sunshine, while at least full of positivity, doesn’t reflect any of the failures and weaknesses of the EU and the changes it needs, the EU isn’t an organisation that deserves the adulation our party has given it.
I’ll still vote remain, but as a judgement that there is no alternative bloc that would have us and suit us better, and that in taking our frustrations out by leaving, we’d damage ourselves far more than any change this would achieve.
It’s a shame we haven’t attacked this ‘Take Control’ slogan, which has worked well for Leave – Westminster feels remote let alone Brussels, and I want them to let go, not take more control. Parliament is hardly trusted any better. Where issues need international solutions, by all means decide at EU level but our localist message would push back against the control message that’s resonated for Leave.
I was originally going to put out a letter in my ward encouraging a remain, but really don’t want to be associated with either Stronger In or In Together – I know I might live to regret this.
AS tpfkar 7th Jun ’16 – 1:40pm said:
“the EU isn’t an organisation that deserves the adulation our party has given it.”
One thing is clear. I know from my day to day business that many people are holding back from making investment decisions until after the Referendum and are unlikely to invest here for some years after Leave. There is absolutely no doubt that the short term reaction to leave will be a hike in interest rates and a recession. What then happens will depend on what shape a Brexit government takes. I fear very greatly for an England and Wales, because Scotland will leave, governed by a right wing Tory administration. We are where we are because of the failure of establishment politics world wide but it would be fatal not to accept the decision of the British people, however wrong headed it may be. it’s a sorry mess you have landed us in Captain Cameron !
This article sum’s up what’s wrong with the campaign…
It starts well noting Tim is “determined to fight a positive campaign” but then the points it lists from him are yet more negativity..
“He called leaving the EU “an appalling act of self damage.””
“He cited “every serious economist I could think of” and respected bodies like the Institute of Fiscal Studies as evidence that we should stay in.”
“He also urged everyone to register to vote – particularly young people – to protect their own futures.”
I am getting a terrible feeling we are going to wake up to a Brexit hangover…
I worry that however positive Tim tries to be the media will always focus on the negative tit for tat…
@expats “Would any here sail on a ‘ship’ captained by Johnson, with Gove as Chief Engineer and IDS as Cook? A ‘ship’ with no defined course/destination …”
For 5 years Lib Dems were happy to sail a ship with 2 of these 3.
Peter Watson 7th Jun ’16 – 10:05pm…..@expats “Would any here sail on a ‘ship’ captained by Johnson, with Gove as Chief Engineer and IDS as Cook? A ‘ship’ with no defined course/destination …”For 5 years Lib Dems were happy to sail a ship with 2 of these 3…..
Some were; others, like me,jumped ship….
@Steve Way You said “I worry that however positive Tim tries to be the media will always focus on the negative tit for tat…”
Personally, I’m afraid I think it’s inevitable. Journalists thrive on negative news, politicians saying positive things doesn’t sell papers. Ultimately, that’s down to what people want to read (or listen to or watch).
Politicians across the world have long found that negative tactics win elections, and most effective “positive” campaigns have a strong negative thread running through them. For example, the “change” narrative is a criticism of the status quo.
If a politician did win on a purely positive agenda, wouldn’t they be bound to disappoint?
What depresses me is not the negativity, but the deceit. And, in this referendum, deceit is all too often bald-faced lies.
At the last election, David Cameron gave the impression that he wouldn’t cut child tax credits. That was deceit, but it wasn’t a lie (though it was pretty close to one).
This time, politicians are lying. Leave have stated as fact that Turkey will join – a clear lie. Leave have stated as fact that we are sending £350m per week to Brussels, which can be redirected to the NHS here, another lie. (If they had been less categorical, and just given the impression that Turkey would join and that there was £350m to divert, that would just have been deceit)
I can’t think of any bald-faced lies from Remain, there’s certainly been misleading stuff, but maybe because I’m pro-Remain I don’t notice their worst porkies.
What’s depressing is that there seems to be no one who has the moral authority to challenge deceit, so the ordinary voter, who isn’t well equipped to go into the minutiae of the issue, is left wondering, where can I get truthful facts?
Matt (Bristol). The problem we will face post ‘brexit’ is that the people who will decide our relationship with the EU are the remaining 27 countries and not us. It is clear from the treaties that the 27 will tell us what the terms are and that the UK will have no choice but to accept them. Even at my most optimistic I can’t see the UK getting a good deal because the remaining EU countries will want to make an example of the UK ‘pour decourager les autres’. It will not matter a toss who leads our government.
Mick, I always read your contributions with interest but on this threat from the 27, I think you have swallowed the propaganda. The EU members are proscribed by international law and their own Lisbon Treaty to support free trade.
“Peter your next important question is ‘do we really think that European leaders will gift the UK exit terms that give succour to their own political adversaries? ‘
They can’t do otherwise. First the UK will file at the United Nations under the “presumption of continuity” and trade just as happened at the break up of Yugoslavia and the division of Czechoslovakia. So all existing trade relationships continue and cannot be violated without sanction. They would have to violate international law. And of course alienate themselves from G7 and G20 which is urging everyone against any form of protectionism.
Second the EU’s own article 3 of the Lisbon Treaty says the union will uphold “free and fair trade” with the rest of the world, and this too has legal force.
Of course you can’t expect the EU Commission and others to admit this, because as you say other countries will be queuing up to follow the UK in this route.
But you should expect a British Liberal Party to be explaining this loudly and clearly and disassociating itself from an in-campaign which is using this and other scare claims to badger the public, instead of proving proper information with which people can make free decisions.
If people want to go the EEA route they can – some disruption but not huge + huge gains to the Liberty of the British people and to the Liberty of huge swathes of people in the EU who are suffering an almost permanent depression in their economies thanks to the management of the EZ by the ECB, which is also holding back non Euro members of the EU – A situation that is giving succour to the hard right and to Putin.”
Eddie and Mick,
Both your points are valid, but they again throw up a basic problem which is that not only do we not know what a Brexit will look like, we have no agreed set of principles upon which we can attempt to build a negotiation.
Eddie’s argument that people will expect to see a meaningful change in our relationship with the EU is reasonable, but what is a ‘meaningful change’ and who is the judge of that?
Mick is right that we won’t (despite the delusional behaviour of the out campaign) be able to dictate terms – and I suspect the disunity on our side will only weaken things further.
Ordinarily, I disapprove completely of the ‘project fear’ approach, and would like to see a more positive case being put forward.
(I would also have liked a completely different approach to democracy in the EU from our own UK government over 30 years that didn’t regard legitimising the EU in democratic terms as anything but a nasty inconvenience and a rival source of ppower – but hey, it appears things I want don’t happen).
But really, I am starting to state at the complete black hole in front of us a large chunk of the country seem to keen to rush towards, and all I feel is a mounting sense of horror.
I’ve just seen Gordon Brown’s video in Coventry Cathedral and it was one of the best I’ve seen in the campaign to date for positive content (and I couldn’t stand him as PM or Chancellor!!)
@George Kendall
As so often I find myself in agreement with you. Sadly, and as predicted by so many of us, the Lib Dems have lost that place as the voice of truth from the Public’s perception. I hope this will return but there is much more work to do.
Blair, Clegg, Brown, Cameron et al are all compromised in the public mind. Much as I loathe him Corbyn has a better chance of being seen as honest by voters on the left but we all know his heart is far from in the campaign.
We need a champion, preferably someone un-tainted by party politics who can put some positive passion into the final stages of the campaign. Sadly I have no idea who that is…