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31 Comments
I can not be bothered to view it but how many religions and cults does he have to produce messages for? We are a secular, liberal party or we might as well give up.
@ Peter Hayes: Nick Clegg is doing what any responsible political leader in a diverse, multi-religious society would do – wish the Jewish community a happy and holy Passover. It’s actually an excellent message and video – worth watching and it highlights the enormous contribution of the Jewish community to life in Britain.
Shalom to all Jewish Lib Dems on the great feast of Pesach!
@helen so when will he produce a message for the Druids, we need to help the party in Wales ;>)
Peter Hayes may have raised this in a jokey way but when one looks at the facts from the 2011 censushe maynhavema point.
The Board of Deputies website includes the following —
Religion data show 263,346 Jews living in England and Wales, a figure which can be adjusted upwards and rounded to 284,000 based on the rate of non-response to the religion question. The population size has remained largely unchanged since 2001.
Jews constitute 0.5% of the total population of England and Wales, the same proportion as in 2001.
In comparison, data on the size and proportion of other major religious populations in England and Wales reveal the following:
o Christian: 59.3% (33,243,175)
o Muslim: 4.8% (2,706,066)
o Hindu: 1.5% (816,633)
o Sikh: 0.8% (423,158)
o Jewish: 0.5% (263,346)
o Buddhist: 0.4% (247,743)
o Other religions: 0.3% (240,530)
o No religion: 25.1% (14,097,229)
o Religion not stated: 7.2% (4,038,032
All other major religious populations have significantly increased (Muslims by 75%; Buddhists by 71%; Hindus by 48%; and Sikhs by 28%)
London and its immediately adjacent areas account for 65.3% of the total Jewish population of England and Wales.
@ John Tilley
The Jewish community ,(in reality it’s communities – from Modern Orthodox to Liberal), may be numerically small but it makes a great contribution to life in Britain and has done for centuries, (charities, welfare, education, politics, theatre, business etc..) and of course Judaism is the ‘older brother’ of the other two religions present in greater numbers here – Christianity and Islam.
I’m sure Nick will recognise other communities during the year. I know he made a similar video for Diwali for example.
Peter – we are a secular party, that is one that is not affiliated to any particular religious tradition. But that is not the same as an atheist party; indeed, the party has a higher proportion of members with faith than in the population as a whole. Being rude about someone’s beliefs is not a good way to hold onto their support.
It is perfectly possible to be a secularist and a Christian, or Jew, or Muslim. Many members like me trace our liberalism back to Victorian reformist non-Conformist roots. Others have joined the party because liberalism best matches their philosophical and theological values. Without getting into an argument about the validity of those beliefs I suggest we do need to acknowledge their significance.
So I’m very happy that Nick offers seasonal greetings at Christmas, Passover, Eid, Diwali or any other festival.
My opening sentence should have read —
Peter Hayes may have raised this in a jokey way but when one looks at the facts from the 2011 census, he may have a point.
The Jewish population in this country is only slightly bigger than the Bhuddhist population.
It is very small at 0-5 % of the total population. This is a hugely important political point, not just a religious one. In this country we are subjected to a lot of Islamophobia in the media and this is barely commented on. When Jeremy Browne was a minister at the Home Office he made some rather inflammatory remarks aout the wearing of the veil by some women; imagine the fuss there would have been if he had made similar remarks about the clothing worn by some followers of the Jewish faith.
So to return to Peter Hayes original point — is it the job of the leader of a secular political party to engage in such gestures on some religious holidays when ignoring others?
This is especially so when the leader in question has declared that he is an atheist.
I anticipate a lot of antagonistic comments in response to this, but I hope that by presenting a clear analysis of the facts and speaking plainly I have not offended anyone. When it comes to offending people we ought also to take into account the 30% of the UK population that do not subscribe to any religious belief.
John Tilley
Surely then, it’s even more commendable that Nick Clegg has made a video wishing Jews a Happy Passover, as he has put aside his own personal opinions. He’s doing this as leader to a recognisable community in our society.
I’m not sure I understand what the issue is in relation to festivals in general, as Nick wished the Muslim community a happy Eid earlier in the year too, as well as Diwali which is also celebrated by Sikhs as well as Hindus.These communities weren’t ignored.
The Party is made up of people of all faiths and none and it seems to me that Nick is simply being courteous and inclusive in greeting members of minority communities. What is controversial about making some courteous greetings at a time of celebration?
@ John Tilley
“The Jewish population in this country is only slightly bigger than the Bhuddhist population.
It is very small at 0-5 % of the total population. ”
Yes, and it wouldn’t even be 0.5% if the anti-semites had had their way.
I am a member of a minority faith and let me tell you that when politicians send these messages, it is totally cringe making, like jumping on to our bandwagon and saying “Look how cool and multicultural I am” Ugh!
Mack (Not a Lib Dem) 15th Apr ’14 – 6:46pm
@ John Tilley
“The Jewish population in this country is only slightly bigger than the Bhuddhist population.
It is very small at 0-5 % of the total population. ”
Yes, and it wouldn’t even be 0.5% if the anti-semites had had their way.”
OUCH!!!!
Helen Tedcastle
The points you make are entirely reasonable. As are those of Mary Reid.
However, those of us who are not religious are capable of feeling offended as well.
Religious groups have all sorts of special or preferential treatment such as tax exemptions for charitable status. Some peoplectakecoffense at this special treatment. The established church has all sorts of privileges over other Christian denominations. That also causes offense. Some people are offended by the presence of Bishops in the House of Lords. Some people are offended that the BBC devotes hours every week to mainly Christian programming, which is funded by the same licence fee that we are all forced to pay. The state funding of schools by some religious groups is highly offensive when this involves teaching creationism.
We are all united in supporting the campaign against FGM. But mention circumcision and the followers of Islam and Judaism are united in offence because it is a religious practice.
Ritual slaughter of animals for food causes offense but discussion is usually limited by those religious groups responsible Although no politician seems to mind that some Hindus would be offended that any cows are slaughtered.
The thing that I find most offensive is the attitude shown by the comment from Mack (Not a Lib Dem). This discussion was prompted by a Jewish Festival but any attempt to discuss the subject in a rationalmway immediately results in someone throwing out the words “anti-Semites”.
The only way to treat all religions equally is to have a secular society within which everyone is equally respected even those who make the decision to be rational rather than religious.
John Tilley
I think you too have made your points entirely reasonably and we agree on so many things as has been borne out by recent threads on LDV.
” those of us who are not religious are capable of feeling offended as well.”
I’m rather confused by this statement, because it’s not clear who has already been offended by the video wishing a minority community well in their festival. Clegg simply offers a greeting. I’m not sure how it impacts on anyone other than the community to whom it is directed – and precious few of them will probably see it – Passover is a long festival.
If it’s a question of whether a political leader of a national party should be offering greetings to minority groups, I would argue yes, as long as those greetings do not advocate that all of us should join that faith or philosophy or follow a particular ritual practice.
On ritual practices – as far as I’m aware, these go on according to the religious laws of the communities involved and are strictly regulated ie: the Jewish community has the Beth Din or court which supervises Kosher and ritual slaughter. It is very debatable whether religious ritual is any more painful to animals than mass killing in abattoirs, where quite horrible things can go wrong so that meat can be brought to market.
As Kosher and indeed Halal practice does not impact on my life but are important to orthodox Jews and muslims, surely freedom of religion is essential in a multi-faith society.
On Mack’s comments, he can comment for himself but I think it was making a wider point about persecution and oppression of that community. That’s how I interpreted it.
” The only way to treat all religions equally is to have a secular society within which everyone is equally respected even those who make the decision to be rational rather than religious.”
We already have a secular society but within our society there exist many religions. Personally, I would not favour pushing religious belief into the private sphere, which I think is the nub of the issue here. My view is that society is greatly enriched by diversity and pluralism – but it only works in a climate of mutual respect. Unfortunately, extremists have blurred the difference between moderate and peaceful people and the fundamentalists.
I’m also not sure about the distinction between being rational and being religious. For my part, I think it is perfectly possible to be rational and religious at the same time.
Helen Tedcastle
“…For my part, I think it is perfectly possible to be rational and religious at the same time…”
Helen, that is why you are religious and I am not.
On your earlier point about people feeling offended — you must have noticed that people of many religions are often easily offended. We had it recently with a French footballer playing in the Premiership — he scored a goal, celebrated with some sort of gesture familiar to fans of a comedian in France. The vast majority of people watching did not recognise the gesture. Nobodyon the pitch or ithe stadium ws offended. Some considerable time later all sorts of people, many of who were neither at the football match nor watching it on TV decided they were offended . Eventually a formal committee of the Football Association judged that enormous offense had been caused, imposed a ban and a fine and the footballer left his job even though he had not unreasonably said all the time that his goal celebration was nothing to do with any religion.
It was like the old days of Mary Whitehouse. There were people in France and in England rummaging around for a bit of old football coverage to be able to watch so that they could decide that they were deeply offended. It was a sort of madness. But because of the religious component people were reluctant to break the taboo and point out the madness.
John
” you must have noticed that people of many religions are often easily offended”
Yes of course but within religious communities there is a wide spectrum – from deeply conservative and those who hold fast to all aspects of rituals, law and more moderate people who are able to engage in the modern world (and don’t see barriers) and at the same time value and honour all that is good in their faith. That’s what I mean by being rational and religious (though I prefer not to use these terms) – I think a person of faith constantly seeks understanding so there is always a dialogue and conversation between faith and reason.
When there is a sensational story in the press related to gestures or items of clothing, it’s important I think, to distinguish between whether this is really a political story or a cultural one or both. With Anelka, it was the FA who disciplined him and he was sacked by WBA. I know he insists it wasn’t being anti-semitic but some people thought he was. I think maybe the FA acted because they didn’t want the publicity. The case is unproven.
However, on the wider point about this case and religious taboos. Anti-semitism is really related to an ethnicity rather than specifically about a religion, as one can be an atheist as well as being Jewish – so it’s a taboo related to a particular people and connected particularly sensitively, to recent history.
On other taboos, all societies have them – they’re not just religious but social, so I wouldn’t just single them out for criticism as human societies have always developed them eg: rituals and taboos surround football and its supporters in this country.
Helen Tedcastle
“one can be an atheist as well as being Jewish” plus the fact that you can technically join the Jewish “ethnic” group by adopting the religion… these categories are a mess (see also Sikhs).
It is observable that many religious people and communities would be judged “good people” who do “good things” by all sorts of secular and atheist people. The provision of food to allcomers by some sikh and muslim communities (and others) is to be applauded, but if that and food banks are entrenched as part of the real social security system we should all be ashamed.
Helen Tedcastle
“…On other taboos, all societies have them – they’re not just religious but social, so I wouldn’t just single them out for criticism as human societies have always developed them eg: rituals and taboos surround football and its supporters in this country.”
Certainly cannot disagree with this last point — I come from Manchester.
So I often wear clothes which are light blue 🙂
Surely Clegg is to be commended (I never thought I’d say that) for reaching out inclusively to embrace all ethnicities and religions? In government the Liberal Democrats should be prepared to represent all the varied races and religions in this country and not just the secular. As I recall, in their 2010 manifesto the Liberal Democrats advocated granting citizenship to half a million illegal immigrants. Many of these would hardly have been secular.
Mack, it comes across to those of us who are in minority faiths as incredibly patronising and cringe making. We just want politicians to get on with running the country, we don’t need them to suck up to us with these public statements.
Oh Come on! All Clegg did was wish the Jewish people a happy Passover. At Christmas he can still wish everyone a happy Christmas and continue to run the country. (Or not run it, which is really the case). At 7% in the polls the Liberal Democrats need all the support they can get, don’t they? There’ll be a lot of sucking up needed between now and the next general election after what the Liberal Democrats have done.
Phyllis
” it comes across to those of us who are in minority faiths as incredibly patronising”
I have to disagree. As a member of another minority faith, I think these attempts to reach out – by simply giving a greeting – are incredibly important. There was a time when minority religions were persecuted in this country, so this kind of on-going acknowledgement, which is all this is, is simply a friendly gesture.
” We just want politicians to get on with running the country, we don’t need them to suck up to us with these public statements.”
This is part of their job of ‘running the country.’ They are building and cementing relationships with communities. If you watch the video, it’s actually very well done (and I’m not normally complimentary of Clegg).
@JohnTilley ” So I often wear clothes which are light blue :-)”
Yes, Manchester football rivalry would make a good case study, especially if City win the Premiership this year! 🙂
Helen you are a Catholic, how can you claim to be a ‘minority faith’ ?
Helen, you think if it as ‘reaching out’ but for some of those of us from other cultures it comes across as ‘intrusion’ . I don’t know anyone in our community who feels as you do, but of course different cultures may regard these things differently.
@John Tilley
“Certainly cannot disagree with this last point — I come from Manchester.
So I often wear clothes which are light blue 🙂 ”
Excellent! Your judgment on football matters is as sound as it is on political matters.
Phyllis
Catholicism is a minority faith in the UK , that’s what I meant, although it is the largest Christian denomination world-wide.
I don’t know your faith affiliation and am still trying to work out why anyone would it patronising or intrusive to be sent a warm and friendly greeting on a video, which very few people actually watch.
Yes as I said, different cultures have different reactions to these things.
Helen Tedcastle 15th Apr ’14 – 9:19pm
“We already have a secular society”
ROFLMAO!
I’m sorry, were you actually serious? That makes it both sad and hilarious. We have an established church. We have a head of state who is the head of said church. We have representatives of said church sitting in our parliament simply because they represent said church ( as an aside, only one other country allows religion such a high place in it’s government, Iran. What wonderful company we keep.). We insist on state schools having an assembly every day that must be largely christian in nature. And on and on and on.
Secular society? I wish.
Graham Martin Royle
I am perfectly serious and am happy to repeat it. We are a secular society, one of the most secular in Europe in political and social terms. It may not be secular in name if that’s what you mean – we’re a more tolerant type of secular society than France and allow faith groups to run their own schools.
The established church wields very little if any political power – the idea that the Lords Spiritual (was it a 26 at the last count?) are remotely similar to the Ayatollahs of Iran or that the Queen is a Supreme Leader of a theocracy does not bear relation to reality.
The wholly or partially Christian assembly brought in in 1988 by Tory Peers and accepted by Kenneth Baker in his Education Reform Act, is more less ignored by community schools so why the worry? At the time as I recall, the Cof E was not calling for it.
I don’t expect you to agree with me!
I don’t disapprove of Clegg recording this message, although it smacks of tokenism; I also (as a Christian) am bored to tears of all party leaders banging on or briefing off the record about their own faith and its impact on their politics as Blair did. I respect Clegg when he is honest about his lack of faith, and I don’t think that stops him from doing this, hackneyed American-style politics as it is.
As to Graham and Helen’s debate about secularisation, all the churches know that their effective social and political power is increasingly limited and moot. They may have some remaining ‘soft’ power / influence, but increasingly they have to be careful how they use it or it will also become devalued or removed. Churches who do not realised this tend to marginalise themsevles or are identified in the public mind or in the media with religious extremism.
I think the bishops in parliament and the ‘Christian’ act of worship in schools can often be the means by which the church and its message becomes secularised. OK, we still have (limited) state structures which originated in theocratic times, but that’s about as far as it goes most of the time. (I have said on here before that I wish to see full disestablishment of the Church of England, which I think would actually protect many churches from state interference).
Helen is dead right that Catholicism is historically a minority faith community here. In the early 19th century, Catholics could not vote. We have not yet had a Catholic Prime Minister. There is more cultural and historical complexity here than straight-forward black-and-white positions allow for.
Helen Tedcastle 16th Apr ’14 – 3:54pm
“I don’t expect you to agree with me!”
I don’t.
Passover, is just not the one day that this seem to indicate, it goes farther than that.
The Jewish principles are law and how we live our lives, it is a way of life.