I am a German citizen and UK resident. I am also a fan, but not a member of the Liberal Democrats.
I appreciate your party’s stance on Brexit, but I urge you to go further:
Stop expressing misguided respect for a misguided referendum result. People want and deserve a better life, and you know Brexit will give them the opposite: Brexit impoverishes, endangers, brutalizes, and kills.
An MP voting with the Government on triggering Article 50 against his or her conscience is worse than Johnson or Farage, because he or she will not only be a populist, but will irreversibly go down in history as a legislating populist. MPs must protect the country and its people from harm, also and especially if self-inflicted.
Some MPs have to lead the way towards responsible voting, and this is the quintessential Liberal Democrat role; many Labour and the Conservative MPs will follow, if the few remaining liberals have established the legitimacy of voting to remain.
The argument can be won: have you noticed that Brexiteers have abandoned all their untrue claims and replaced it with just one: the people want Brexit? Not surprisingly another lie.
Secure your place in your country’s and Europe’s history by stopping this madness. This is the moment for you to choose between terminal insignificance and lasting fame. The country would be forever in your debt.
Courage! There will not come a better chance to show your worth.
* Arnold Kiel is a self-employed Management Consultant, father of two sons in British education, and very concerned about their future in this Europe
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62 Comments
Well, well Arnold urges us to disregard the vote of the ” misguided people” There is a real EU ( and Liberal Democrat) approach. What would have happened if Scotland had voted “Yes” in 2014. Would you have ignored another “misguided” approach.
People were told by the Govt and by us Lib Dems that they were making a decision on whether we would stay in or leave. We know from this and the US election that many people feel an unaccountable elite ignores their views – this would reinforce that and send a clear message that if you want to leave they UK your only recourse is to vote UKIP.
If we are to stay in it has to be done via a democratic mandate – another referendum or a GE victory for pro eu parties
We have had the vote and have secured our place in Europe. Thank you for your concern. We wish the EU well as it continues on its path.
No, no , no.
This is exactly the kind of patronising, elitist, condescending language that has got us into this mess in the first place.
I’ll tell you what, after what I’ve read on numerous threads this weekend on this site, if there was a referendum tomorrow I would be very tempted to vote leave (and that’s a hard thing for me to say). I really don’t think people here have the slightest idea how their attitude towards things they don’t agree with comes across to the general population.
Fact: millions of British citizens voted leave because they saw (and still see) the issue as one of a binary identity – Do you see yourself as European or British.
Question: who is responsible for handing the patriotic trump card to leave?
William: in the Scotland referendum the yes camp had prepared a comprehensive next steps manual, the debate was factual and civilized. Scottish independence would not have been brought about by one irreversible letter, but an elaborate and stoppable bilateral process.
Simon: I agree; but first, this Government must be brought down before it acts. A defeat in the Article 50 vote is the way.
Arnold: don’t you understand we’ve got a Titanic future. Don’t worry about icebergs, Boris has a plan. We’re going to go under them. I’m afraid there is not a great deal of courage (or analytical thought) around at the moment. Just got to keep on hoping, fighting and not be afraid to stand up for what you believe to be true. Democracy does not mean that people with opposing views have to change their minds.
Spot on Mike.
Arnold; Brexit impoverishes?
Have you seen the state of Greece, Spain, Portugal?
Greece is on the verge of loosing half a generation to long term unemployment. When they asked for help on the back of a landslide election, the answer from the great E.U. was a resounding ‘Non’ followed by an economic threat.
You want me to vote to remain part of an organisation that thinks this is s price worth paying for the good of the project?
Let me think on that….
No.
Dear Mike, I am not a psychologist but a businessman. I know that misguided (sorry) binary identity terminology and patriotism neither employ nor feed. You seem to underestimate the precariousness of the British economy.
Dear tynan: Greece has homemade problems, aggravated by the EURO, but greatly alleviated by EU membership. No one in Greece dreams of leaving the EU.
‘ Brexit impoverishes, endangers, brutalizes, and kills.’
Evidence ?
The thing about Britain is a lot of British people do not see themselves as European and aren’t convinced that nationhood/nationalism is the source of all evil. The EU just somehow lacks deep emotional resonance.
It worries me that there are Liberals who consider the referendum result democratic… perhaps we are all so conditioned by the FPTP electoral system that a split vote with a tiny majority is unconditionally deemed the will of the people. Forget the different needs of Ireland, Scotland, Gibraltar. They’re not as big as England so suck it up. Forget the wishes of the young or of EU citizens already here as they didn’t vote. Forget the mandate that elected you to Parliament and feel that we must respect something we don’t believe in. We stand up for what we believe in, we stand up for our supporters and our policies. If that’s not popular then we get voted out. Representative democracy not populism please.
Arnold correct to some extent in regard to Greece having home grown problems.
However Greece should never have been allowed to join the Euro as the economy did not meet the criteria. This was known at the time and overlooked due to political vanity on behalf of the EU.
There are many economists, as I expect you know, who believe Greece would benefit by dropping out of the euro, even if on a temporary basis and it is at least possible that this will have to happen in the medium term.
Note you say nothing about the state of Spain or Portugal who are also suffering badly.Not least with youth unemployment.
Finally I think you will find there is a growing number of people in Greece who hate the EU and want out. Certainly not even close to a majority, yet, but believe me,they exist.
Thank you Arnold, the way you put it, it seems so obvious. Either looking at the evidence and the indicators, we judge that the country is put at risk and is embarking on a venture of self-harm or we ignore it all, walk the plank and blindly hope that we may fare well in the open sea.
Of course there is also our shared culture and history and the belief that cohesion has more benefits than division.
Meanwhile Brexiters offer irreconcilable visions of closed border protectionism and doctrinaire free trade.
I too have two children who are left wondering where they belong and where the future lies. When many of those who voted for Brexit have departed, it will be our children’s generation who will have to pick up the pieces.
So far as Liberal Democrats are concerned, the membership is overwhelmingly opposed to Brexit and what it stands for, more than twice as many who vote for Liberal Democrats voted against Brexit. If the Liberal Democrats do not provide a firm voice against Brexit, who will? It would be very unhealthy to suppress the voice of so many who reject the self harm of Brexit.
“MPs must protect the country and its people from harm, also and especially if self-inflicted”
Arguably, liberalism defend people’s right to self harm.
Does anyone else think that there are any lessons here in regards to any future Scottish referendum.
Could it actually be run again with-:
No prior agreement on the terms of any spilt
Only the Scottish being allowed to vote, despite the fact that a split impacts the entire U.k.
No vote on any agreement subsequent to a vote for independence.
I would suggest that should Scotland ever desire a second referendum on independent, there will have to some point at which the rest of the U.K. gets to vote on the terms of the split….don’t you agree liberals??
Tynan, I suspect that the only politicians actually actively considering having a referendum ever again on almost anything are Gerry Adams, Nigel Farage and Nicola Sturgeon.
Sorry – I mean, after the Brexit crisis is resolved, but I do suspect that a second referendum (although a logical conclusion to the mess Cameron has created and May is deepening) will also be stillborn.
>‘ Brexit impoverishes,.. evidence?
Well, my company is looking to offset the impact of the drop in sterling by cutting jobs. Doubt it’s the only one. A Times survey of more than 1,000 British firms say they’ve abandoned investment plans worth more than £65bn since the vote. Separate warnings about inflation. And only 6% of employers want a ‘hard Brexit.’
But, I expect that’s all ‘experts’ and ‘the elite’ talking.
After all, the Tory government have a plan. Only they don’t want to tell anyone what it is until it’s too late to stop it. And anyone who queries the wisdom of letting them do whatever they want, answering to no one else, is opposing The Will Of The People.
@ Arnold: “I am not a psychologist but a businessman. I know that misguided (sorry) binary identity terminology and patriotism neither employ nor feed”.
I voted remain – I’m not disagreeing with the potential seriousness of the situation, more the language being used by some Lib Dems and the fact that many still do not appear to understand why many of the 52% voted as they did without rubbishing them and resorting to abuse.
Wanting to feel safe, secure, comfortable;
Having shelter, a home that will be there tomorrow and the day after;
Not feeling inadequate because you can’t afford what television tells you others have;
Watching as your job is taken away from you and moved overseas;
Hearing politicians say the same old stuff;
Having to change your way of life to fit in with newcomers;
Seeing immigrants paid less to do the job you have just lost.
Apologies to whoever wrote this a few days ago for not crediting it – I thought it was spot on.
Now, Arnold, the fact you are writing this presumably means you and your business has been a beneficiary of the EU and you are worried.
However the truth is that the lower paid half of working Britain has seen no rise in living standards since the early 2000’s. They and their businesses have lost from open borders and globalisation.
They hear about a better life on TV on social media, but see a political system that has failed them.
They blame a combination of Europe and their own government.
Many of them remember a time before Europe when they were better off, they see Europe as having done nothing for them.
Dear John, apparently you need to see for yourself, so just wait… But let me give you just one example: the so called “British Motor Industry” (in reality some elements of global supply chains rescued from English management by and governed in Tokyo, Detroit, Munich, Mumbai and Wolfsburg) exists only because of single market membership. It will disappear within 10 years after Brexit. That will take care of poverty. It will add to mounting trade- and budget-deficits, leading to more cuts in public spending, among other things on defence and police: danger. Add to that context the newly legitimized xenophobia: brutality. And, naturally, more people will be born (and remain) poor and live shorter. This will be perpetuated and aggravated by the collapse of the NHS caused by the detrimental demographics of a more closed and less prosperous society. There never is evidence concerning the future. But prudent decision making uses plausible predictions. As a voter, you have the right to dismiss this, but not as an MP.
So – what to do?
Crucially we have not managed so far to win the argument that the majority who voted leave will be any worse off if we leave, nor have we convinced them anything will change if we stay – which is even more worrying!
So: are we able to develop policies that allow these millions of citizens to be able to take advantage of the opportunities of globalisation such that their businesses may succeed as well as Arnold’s?
The bottom line is that if we can’t get back in touch with these voters and convince them we have a ‘cunning plan’, then Liberals will not be given the opportunity to make a difference to their lives.
My issue with Lib Dems trying to overturn the result now (apart from the potential civil unrest and perception that Lib Dems are being undemocratic) is that it’s to a large extent i the left of centre folks that have jumped into he arms of Nigel & Boris – the very people we need to engage with for long term political gain.
Dear Mike, I don’t argue with desperate voters who listen to the Farages or Johnsons, but with politicians who damage them further. Those industrial jobs, once gone, will never come back. Who can afford a garment or a mobile phone made in England? Very soon, we will all be either highly skilled or poor. EU membership slows this process down and gives society time to adjust. The UK must maximize overall wealth, principally in the city, but also by slowing deindustrialization down as much as possible, and then find the right balance between motivating performers and supporting those behind (I am not saying left behind because it is nobody’s fault; no politician can provide high pay for low skills). And then Britons need to appreciate that their highstreet at least has a curry, a kebap place, a polish sausage shop and other immigration-driven economic activity instead of only dead or broken windows.
There are x number of people (I believe it to be a large percentage) that voted for Brexit because they were caught between the wealth off who could create and exercise the loop-holes fully and the vulnerable who have so much support sent their way. These people felt forgotten and those campaigning for Brexit told them we could take back control.
What we have thus far is the fact that no one had planned what Brexit would be or how it would be decided upon. This results in a closed argument of “democracy means democracy” while a closed room of barely elected politicians make decisions and challenge the British courts decision when it goes against them.
Somehow the Lib Dems need to help those feeling forgotten, continue to support those who are most vulnerable and highlight that “democracy means democracy” is a farce when the process leading to the result was flimsy at best and the process following the result has been in ill health too. It is unlikely that this can also mean overturning the decision of the referendum.
Arnold, Sadly we will leave…Those that inform the masses have shown that ANY attempt (be it political or legal) will be shouted down as subversion; and those who advocate such action will be labelled traitors…
‘Remainers’ like Theresa May and Lynn Truss have proved craven in the face of a hostile media run by those who neither live nor pay tax in the UK….It is only when the true cost of leaving has drastically affected the majority of those who voted out will there be any hope of a reversal…
Theresa May keeps on about Globalisation and Free Trade but, in the US, globalisation and free trade are blamed for job losses in the manufacturing sector and wage depression…Trump’s election is likely to result in the US retreating from free trade with, perhaps, a dash of old-fashioned economic isolationism. This bodes ill for a UK trying to go solo…
I’ve got to admit I thought the initial economic impact of Brexit would be worse than it has been so far. I’m sort of cautiously pleased with the progress and by the shift in focus in a more nation state based direction.
I always thought I was solidly pro EU, argued against the referendum last year, felt the Conservatives were doing something very dangerous by offering the referendum and then when it became inevitable my lip stiffened and I just could not vote remain. The feeling wasn’t there. It turns out I’m a bit of a little Englander at heart.
@ john 14th Nov ’16 – 5:43pm “‘ Brexit impoverishes, endangers, brutalizes, and kills.’……..Evidence ?”.
Two words : Jo Cox MP.
Dear Arnold – actually what you have just written in your last reply to me makes a lot of sense – you articulate the reality of 2016 Britain well.
The challenge is now to communicate this stark reality to enough potential voters.
This needs clear policies which are communicated in a language which will make people sit up and take notice, whilst not rubbishing anyone’s identity or values.
If the party wants to vote against article 50 (both out of conscience and to provide a voice for the 48), then fine – I can see that we don’t want another tuition fees moment, and as someone else said, you wouldn’t expect the opposition to side with the government after losing a GE, but to continue to fight their corner.
However, this last few months surely has to be a massive wake up call for us all.
Unless we develop workable proposals and clear policies to address the major concerns of the 52, we will make little real sustainable progress. If an opportunity presents itself in the coming months or years we need to be ready.
At some point we will all realise that Brexit means ‘hard Brexit’. There is and was no majority in favour of a ‘hard Brexit’, and that was not the outcome the ‘Leave’ campaign presented to the electorate.
When Hard Brexit becomes apparent, the consequences will start to become obvious. It will take some time. At some point the general public will realise that the ‘Leave’ campaign was a lie, that we are all victims of a group of politicians who believe that victims of fraud should just shut up and keep quiet.
The problem for the perpetrators of this fraud is that they can’t make a quick get away, and nobody likes being taken for a sucker. Brexit is going to take time – so plenty of time for the back lash.
The further down the Brexit road we go, the worse the damage to the economy, the fiercer the backlash will be.
Arnold Kiel
“Brexit impoverishes, endangers, brutalizes, and kills.”
I’m sorry, but nobody knows which way the UK’s economy will go after brexit, it’s total guess work. We are doing good at the moment and next years forecast is OK, so lets just see how it goes. Also please don’t try and paint the UK as some sort of violent racist country just because it voted for brexit. In nearly every survey the UK is found to be one of the most tolerant countries in the world. There are plenty of countries within the EU that aren’t tolerant – your own country has some problems in that area – but the vast majority of the UK is.
Stephen,
When the referendum was in full swing. Remain campaigners were queuing up to tell everyone that Britain would be ruined almost instantly, that the mighty commissioners of the EU would act as vengeful gods, that George Osborne would unleash upon our houses a plague of emergency budgets, that there would possibly be war between nations and that generally the world would end etc. It had the backing of all three major UK parties, plus the Lib Dems, plus the Greens, the president of the USA, in fact pretty much every leader in the world, every major bank and virtually every celeb, yet we are supposed to believe that this huge effort involving daily doom was too feeble to stand up to the dying printed newspapers and Boris Johnson. In truth people voted Brexit thinking David Cameron would trigger article 50 the next day and now think it is just being dragged by anti democratic people.
The sad thing is how corrosive Brexit has been for liberal principles. This was the pro-Europe party in a way that none of the other parties was. Now that principle is being cast aside, very quickly, almost frivolously. The question of squaring the referendum result with pro-European principles is essentially an academic one (though not an insoluble one). But trying to work out such abstract philosophical notions with mathematical precision, however interesting it may be as an intellectual exercise, avoids the real question: what is best for the country and for the world?
If any Lib Dem truly believes that everyone will be better off with Brexit, then by all means, he should support and endorse Article 50.
But if you truly believe that Brexit is a net negative, to support it on entirely abstract grounds is neither principled nor courageous; it just shows a lack of confidence in one’s convictions.
Dear Glenn, dear malc, the current state of the UK economy is still rather benign because consumers are as complacent about their spending as they were about their voting, GBP-depreciation still has to fully materialize in consumer prices, and the investments cancelled now do not affect current capacity. Hiring is slowing already and new job creation will soon stop altogether. A downward spiral is forming and will accelerate.
Britons are, indeed, overall very tolerant; I did not intend to suggest otherwise, but the trend is not a positive one.
This morning’s news brought another leaked memo, saying the government is utterly divided what to do about brexit, cannot discuss it with parliament because there is nothing to discuss, and suggesting an extre 30,000 civil servants are needed to deal with the mess. It implies the proposed timetable cannot be met, because we would simply have nothing to discuss when negotiations started.
I have recently noticed a wave of posters demanding we get on with brexit, and perhaps this is exactly because of the impasse within government. They do not know how there can be a good outcome to this. Half want to call a halt, and half do not care what the economic cost is. This must be opposed. Whatever the outcome, we cannot go forward without parliament deciding what sort of Brexit it wants.
Clealry the leave campaign fear is that a public discussion of the true ramifications of brexit as outlined by civil servants would scare the country into changing its mind. It would naturally discredit the government utterly, which is more what concerns them.
Liberals must stand up for their principles. 50% of the population who voted Remain are are lot more potential supporters than the libs have right now.
Everyone who says there is a need to address the real concerns of those who voted Brexit is correct. There is no plan to address this, and Brexit will not, whether it happens or not. The problems stem from globalisation, and US economic policy which has driven world policy.
Glenn 14th Nov ’16 – 9:51pm…………..I’ve got to admit I thought the initial economic impact of Brexit would be worse than it has been so far. I’m sort of cautiously pleased with the progress and by the shift in focus in a more nation state based direction………
This is where Cameron/Osborne/Clegg et al made their big mistake…..Their claims of an immediate ‘Armageddon’ were as unbelievable as the claims made by Farage/Johnson/Gove.
What has happened is akin to the classic government ‘leak’ strategy e.g. “JSA to be halved”…When it turns out that ‘only’ a 30% reduction occurs, those affected are ‘relieved instead of outraged’…
What we have seen so far are merely the outriders of the storm…As the leaked memo shows, there is NO PLAN…If Theresa May and her three stooges can’t agree what hope when they are faced with the rest of the EU?
It seems that ‘Brexit means Chaos’!…
Arnold Kiel: “An MP voting with the Government on triggering Article 50 against his or her conscience is worse than Johnson or Farage, because he or she will not only be a populist, but will irreversibly go down in history as a legislating populist. MPs must protect the country and its people from harm, also and especially if self-inflicted.”
There is nothing new in your argument, Arnold.
Please Google: Edmund Burke’s Speech to the Electors of Bristol.
If an MP wished to vote against triggering Article 50 because it was ‘against their conscience’ then the correct time to have done that was when the referendum legislation was being voted for.
Seven of the eight Lib Dem MPs voted for the referendum. Nick Clegg did not vote.
To turn round now and vote against the triggering of Article 50 on the grounds that the public voted the wrong way is to invite the quite reasonable charge that you are not a democrat.
Ed Miliband and John McDonnell appear to agree on nothing with the exception of this single point. As Mr. Miliband said yesterday, the most likely consequence of such opposition is a hard Brexit.
Dear Paul, what you write is probably true. Many mistakes were made, but who would have expected such a campaign in the world’s oldest democracy which had so far upheld some principles of fair play and truthful political discourse. I just refuse to accept this disaster as inevitable, just because MPs who know better cannot escape a tactical trap of their own making. It will not be easy and requires courage. Also Mr. Miliband should aim higher than just regain a little short-lived popularity.
Arnold
Sometimes it is best not to want the last word.
Silence can be golden.
Arnold
“I just refuse to accept this disaster as inevitable”
Arnold the only way that this won’t happen – and even this is a long shot – is if the EU reaches out to the the UK. At the moment all we seem to be getting are threats about how tough the negotiations will be and statements implying the UK won’t be able to manage on it’s own. I’m afraid that’s a red flag to a bull! If the EU tried a different, gentler approach it might well turn public opinion in favour of staying. However, if we keep getting from the EU the “British Motor Industry” will collapse, all that will happen is sales of German and French cars will fall of a cliff and the people will buy British. The current rhetoric coming from the EU is just going to make the British people more determined than ever to make Brexit a success.
Please Google: Edmund Burke’s Speech to the Electors of Bristol.
These would be the electors of Bristol who, unimpressed with his performance, got rid of him at the very next election? Those electors?
Arnold
You have very strong opinions about Brexit and the car industry and you are entitled to them. I do not agree with you and I am a British citizen who participated in a referendum in which I was on the winning side. To me, Remain were the ones who told lies. ( we were going to be £4,300 poorer in 2030 !!!!) The Government, the BBC and every elite institution made your arguments and they failed. If Lib Dems vote against Article 50 because the people “made a mistake” then I forsee an extinction event.
Arnold
You have my sympathy. What you say is true, by objective standards; the country split down the middle on this question. Unfortunately people today prefer their own ‘truths’ to any opposing view. If the Supteme Court confirms the judgement of the High Court, that it is Parliament, not the people, which is sovereign, then MPs must recognise that with sovereignty comes the responsibilty to exercise that sovereignty in the best interests of the United Kingdom as a whole. Whatever Parliament decides on a free vote I will accept because that is where our democracy resides.
“At some point we will all realise that Brexit means ‘hard Brexit’.” (Stephen Johnson 14th Nov ’16 – 11:48pm)
The question has to be when will people realise and will it be in time to prevent an undesirable outcome? I suggest an “undesirable outcome” is either ‘hard Brexit’ or rejoin with full Euro membership etc. I suggest the best time for people to wake up is before the Executive invoke Art.50, as presently, it would seem the first time people (ie. the British public) will see the deal will be when the EU hands it to its members for approval.
“So – what to do?” (Mike S 14th Nov ’16 – 8:56pm)
Well this is obvious! and it isn’t what Tim is proposing, namely “unless the government agrees to a referendum on the final Brexit deal, the party will vote against Article 50 in the House of Commons.” As some keep pointing out it is Parliament that is sovereign, not the people, thus Parliament doesn’t need to wait on the Supreme Court, it can act whenever it wants! Hence it could take the lead and rather than wait for the Executive to decide whether or not it wants to gain Parliament’s consent or not, it could pre-empt that and introduce its own measure forcing the Execute to come to Parliament, both prior to invoking Art.50 and during the discussions prior to any ‘final deal’ being agreed. I’m sure Parliament and those voting Leave(!) would like to know for example why the Executive chose, with the agreement of the EU, to conclude Art.50 negotiations by not withdrawing…
Reflection: It would seem that the LibDems as yet haven’t learnt from David Steel who showed that if you want to make a difference start by doing something small and seemingly inconsequential. His small but significant reform of the House of Lords made on to the statue book, whilst the grandiose reform supported by the party totally failed to gain support.
This article is spot on.
Arnold Kiel – Serious question, and to be very clear I am not getting at you or having a go here. Genuine question:
What do you think A50 is in that treaty for?
Firstly, as I look at the past 10 years and see TTIP, the refugee debacle, Eurozone austerity, hopelessly asymmetric migration, the poor balance of contributors/beneficiaries, relations with Turkey/Russia it’s not exactly hard to see why some people might not feel much like belting out Ode to Joy every morning.
Secondly, those who worry about a lack of democracy in Europe appear to have had at least a big part of their point proven. The EU is looking like the Hotel California, where you can checkout anytime you like but you can never leave. Juncker/Tusk’s reaction to the referendum outcome has been amazing – what sort of union is it where the institutions ignore a member state activating an explicit treaty right? It’s the diplomacy of a teen break-up.
Lastly, surely you must understand that if Parliament ignores the result of the referendum we may see a 500 UKIP majority on the horizon?
Look – I get that there are reasons why some people might like the EU. But the stark reality shown in the UK referendum is that there are not nearly enough people with a meaningful stake in this project. Ignoring them and getting all starry-eyed about the EU does not seem to me the best approach here.
The question is not how much virtue can you signal, it’s about what to do about it and how to make the UK’s lot in the EU better – and frankly I don’t see much from the LDP (or ANY other party) on that point.
@Little Jackie Paper
Two aspect of Remain. Firstly is it good or bad for us in the UK (may be soon to be England)? Secondly do we believe in the project of closer union of the nation states of Europe in order not to repeat some of the mistakes of the past and preserve European social values in the face of global capitalism.
I think Arnold’s post is aimed mainly at the first. One of the ironies of Brexit is that only Germany and the UK that have seen most benefit from Europe. This is half the reason for our problems with immigration.
On the second, the EU has obviously got problems as evidenced by the contents of your comment. These problems have contributed to the Brexit vote and are fueling the rise of nationalism in many other European states. The EU will have to evolve and reform. For too long it has been driven by top down imposition rather than being built from the ground up. In retrospect, Maastricht was a treaty too far in my opinion. But it is also my opinion that we should not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Lets stay and reform the EU.
” Greece should never have been allowed to join the Euro as the economy did not meet the criteria. ”
I’ve holidayed in Greece for many years, both before and after they joined the Euro. Before – eating out was cheap. Every year prices in DX went up about 10%, but you got 10% more DX to the £ so it was all fine. After the Euro, prices in Euros want up 10%, so everything really did get more expensive, to the point where eating out is pretty close to general UK prices. It makes Greece less attractive as a tourist destination. I said at the time it couldn’t work long term. It’s very reminiscent of what happened with the Gold Standard monetary system – both rely on reducing worker wages to make the books balance.
PJ – Maastricht…It often struck me that the euro was designed almost to fight inflation – it was a dragon already dead by the mid 1990s. The economics of the euro troubled me but it was the politics that seemed to me to be at fault. The single currency, plainly, needed some serious convergence, but also it needed ONGOING convergence and, frankly, people to vote for it across 15+ states. We barely had that at the time. Post-enlargement it was a huge problem.
Funny thing is that I never found anyone who saw any problem with the old ECU which worked perfectly well.
DAV, Concerning the example of Edmund Burke please consider this:
In May 1778, Burke supported a parliamentary motion revising restrictions on Irish trade. His constituents, citizens of the great trading city of Bristol, however urged Burke to oppose free trade with Ireland. Burke resisted their protestations and said: “If, from this conduct, I shall forfeit their suffrages at an ensuing election, it will stand on record an example to future representatives of the Commons of England, that one man at least had dared to resist the desires of his constituents when his judgment assured him they were wrong.”
The simple reality is that unless there is a second referendum on the deal the Lib Dem MP’s will go through the no lobby.
Both the Tory and Labour Parties have said that there will be no referendum on the deal, this leaves the Lib Dem MP’s going through the no lobby.
We will be doing exactly what you are calling for us to do Arnold, unless there is a massive revolt by pro-europeans in both Labour and the Conservative parties, and if that happens then they may as well stand in the next General Election on a pro-Remain joint platform with the Lib Dems, the Greens and the SNP.
The only reason May wont let the MPs vote on the leave strategy is because there isnt one. Brexit is probably the biggest omnishambles since Suez. Or maybe since 1066. Who knows. What I do know is all MPs should hold the government to account and right now Labour are not doing so and neither are the Tories.
LJP:
“Juncker/Tusk’s reaction to the referendum outcome has been amazing – what sort of union is it where the institutions ignore a member state activating an explicit treaty right?”
When did that happen? Did I miss it too? The general reaction (including Junker and Tusk’s) has been to wait to see if and when it actually is started. To be ready for the eventuality people have been put in place. In any case why focus on Juncker and Tusk? The EU is not an all powerful state, it is more a mechanism for agreements between states all of whom have no interest or desire in upsetting the Single Market apple cart.
When asked why other states should think otherwise, the retort is in effect ‘Because GB is so important’, which tends to elicit a blank or bewildered response.
‘Have you seen the state of Greece?’
The Greek economy has expanded for the second quarter in a row, beating forecasts and emerging from a protracted recession for the first time in two years (various news reports, 15/11/16).
Greece might be improving a little, but it’s unemployment rate is still very high like many EU countries. Youth unemployment in Greece, Italy and Spain is 40% plus, I think the rate in France is around 24%. I’m not sure the young people of those countries – or their parents – will tolerate this much longer. I very much doubt the National Front will win the Presidency in France, but it might be far closer than it should be.
I checked this article again to confirm that I read what I thought I had read: ” Brexit impoverishes, endangers, brutalizes and kills”. I am very surprised that a wild ridiculous statement like that can appear on a Lib Dem site. Where is the moderation?
What if we attacked Remainers like that?
“Lock her up” I can hear in the background.
Arnold, as a Brit who had a German father, I 100% agree with you. What we have been missing all along is strong voices to say unambiguously that Europe is where Britain should be. When we vote in a general election, we get manifestos and usually well known politicians to vote for. We also get a chance to change our minds 5 years later. If we allow Theresa May to trigger article 50 there will be no going back. So the least we can do, now that he consequences of Brexit are becoming better known, is to allow ourselves a route back from the brink.
Dear Arnold, As with many others here I applaud your article’s strong defence of our country’s need to stay in the EU. Happily it seems the tide IS beginning to turn against Brexit. For instance, an on-line poll from a campaign group Avaaz apparently found that only a third of voters support leaving unconditionally, and nearly the same proportion said it would depend on the terms of the deal. The fears for future trade and demand for continued free access to the EU market both seem to be growing rapidly here, along with more acceptance of moderated immigration. Now long delays are anticipated, during which business, jobs, investment, standard of living and so on all suffer, and meantime behind-the-scenes talks go on, along with the Continental elections and perceptions there of need for EU change and development. The eventual result could be agreement that Brexit should not happen. But there is way to go first in winning public acceptance here that that would be allowable, which is probably only possible through another referendum. Our MPs are surely on the right track meantime, being set to vote against Article 50.
Arnold, thankyou for your thoughtful and passionate contributions. I always like to see those two characteristics together: too often we get one without the other! 🙂
I don’t agree with everything you are saying here, but as a Liberal and a proud European I share your basic outlook. But I do want to say one thing: if you want the party to fight this cause, don’t tell us from the sidelines. Join us and help that fight! It seems to me that your place is with us, and this is not the time for Liberal Europeans to stand aside and let others do the work. Apologies if that seems rude, I don’t mean it that way. But I agree with your analysis that the LibDems are the party that can fight this cause. Individual MPs from other parties can help, yes. But we are the only true pro-EU party. And we need every pro-EU Liberal on board, fighting the fight. You belong with us, so join us! Then you can really influence our campaign, and be part of it.
P.J. – ‘Lets stay and reform’ for years I’ve waited, hoped and voted for people supporting that position. If I thought it was possible, nevermind likley that the E.U. bodies were capable of the sort of fundemental reform that I believe is necessary I would have, reluctantly, voted to remain.
Unlike you I no longer believe that the E.U. realises that it needs to reform, or is capable of implementing reform. With or without Britain I believe its days are numbered.
There is still some small part of me that actually hopes I am wrong on this and that you could be right, but that part of me is fading more as each day passes.
The referendum result must be absolutely respected. Anything else only advances the cause of the far-right and populist nationalists. I have to say that the European Commission particularly has only aided this with its own attitude towards referendums and citizens with say TTIP where Cecilia Malmström inferred that the corporations are more important than the people. If that is what the powers within the EC believe, and I’ve no doubt it does, no wonder the appetite for Euroscepticism is as popular as ever.
How about this: The government work on a comprehensive Brexit plan (since they have not got on) until 2020. They then take the plan and put it into their manifesto. The people, having had a look at it, can then vote for or against the Tories based on their opinion of it. If the Tories win, they immediately submit Article 50 based on their manifesto. If they lose, we call the whole thing off.