Here’s Alistair Carmichael talking to BBC News earlier, saying that the Lib Dems are “optimistic and confident” about what we can achieve in this election:
"Optimistic and confident" – @acarmichaelmp to @BBCScotlandNews on Lib Dems election hopes pic.twitter.com/NeIlln5wsB
— Nick Eardley (@nickeardleybbc) April 18, 2017
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23 Comments
I supported Remain but I would never vote for a party who has as a Leader someone who believes that I, as a gay man, is a sinner. Never.
@Dave Orbison
Is that was Tim Farron said though or failed to deny or really believes?
For me personally, as a married gay man, I do not really care whether a person / politicians religious beliefs leads them to believe I am living in sin, It is their religious freedom to believe whatever they chose to believe.
Just as it is my freedom to believe that people who allow religion to dominate and interfere with every aspect of their lives and how they live and think are a little bit nutty.
What would be a problem is if said person allowed their religious beliefs to infringe on politics and affect my rights and equality and used their political position to discriminate me.
And in all fairness to Tim Farron, I do not think he has done that at all and he has been largely supportive of the LGBT community within that respect.
Unless you can show me otherwise,
Matt – whilst I understand what you say he is, the Party Leader. He clearly believes that gays are sinners hence his embarrassing attempts to duck and weave around a straightforward question.
Yes he is free to cling to his view and yes the LibDems are free to choose someone who judges gays to be sinners, as their Leader.
I am free to say ‘No thanks’.
@dave Orbison
Did you actually watch the interveiew? https://www.channel4.com/news/interview-liberal-democrat-leader-tim-farron I just did and I am sorry, I just do not see what you are saying.
Tim said as a liberal he is passionate about equality and passionate about gay marriage.
I do not see the story here at all, he said he does not want to spend the next 6 weeks of the campaign talking about his Christian beliefs.
That is perfectly reasonable as far as I am concerned.
I do of course respect your right to view and feel otherwise.
But as a gay man myself, I feel it is right to speak out when I feel someone is being unfairly criticised for something that they have not even actually said.
Dave Orbison:
Are you religious? I ask because I wonder why you are so concerned about a sin. Sin is a seriously weird religious thing and not really much to do with right and wrong.
Yesterday there were prawns in my lunch (which I ate without any feeling of guilt), moreover my socks were only 70% cotton, mixed with other fibres. These are biblical sins that are on a par with “lying with a man as with a woman”. Other verses (Deuteronomy 21 10-14) explain how to set about raping a woman (who should be stolen from your enemies apparently), so that sort of thing is not a sin.
Do not worry about sin, it is a seriously messed up concept, unless we are seriously odd, we are all sinners mate, but you right in that Tim Farron should never have allowed himself to be skewered by such an arcane question.
@Dave Orbison
Did he really judge gays to be sinners? Or were in fact his words, in an interview dated July 2015, really “we are all sinners”?
There is a difference.
In the same interview he reiterated his commitment to “fight for the freedom of every single individual to be who they wish to be”.
And as matt above points out, in yesterday’s interview he more ably avoided being drawn into theological debate, instead stating clearly “as a liberal I’m passionate about equality, about equal marriage, about equal rights for LGBT people, for fighting not just for LGBT rights not just in this country but overseas”.
However, the press prefers to headline an interpretation of his 2015 interview. Maybe what is actually going on here is the start of a particularly nasty dirty tricks campaign.
Tim may say he doesn’t want to get into matters of theology or discussing his faith but that wasn’t a problem when it came to his Easter message which was full of his Christian beliefs (and a theological comment on Easter eggs!)
Maybe I’m just not as smart with the doublethink as other Lib Dem members seem to be. I just think a liberal leader should be able to say “No” when asked if homosexuality is a sin. I voted for Tim and my support for him came to a juddering halt after this the first time round. Lots of people I admire explained how they were able to rationalise it based on his voting record but I just couldn’t get it.
@ Dave Orbison – well don’t vote for him then, but presumably Mr Farron, if he does believe being gay is a sin, (I don’t think he does) he thinks so because he thinks God thinks that. No doubt there are lots of other things Mr Farron thinks are sins and that he has committed some sins. Really you ought to take your complaint up with God, rather than Mr Farron.
How many people know what the single market is or how it works. Having failed to win the argument during the referendum, simply repeating the same language is not a great idea. More thought and emphasis needs to go into what sort of UK the Lib Dems want to build, a UK appeals to people who voted remain and leave, instead of imagining that the 48% are identikit voters.
Matt – yes I did see the interview. It’s crystal clear that he sticks to “gays are sinners” as otherwise he could have slapped down the question emphatically, once-and-for-all. He is the Leader of the party and it will be a negative for many as it is for me. The response on Twitter was indicative of this unless you believe these people are all having there strings pulled by May, Corbyn or whoever.
Incidentally sidestepping a future Tory coalition, is not a vote winner in my opinion. One of the lasting legacies of the coalition for the LibDems was that “they say one thing but do another”.
I’m afraid Tim Farron’s strategy of ducking hard questions as in the interview simply underlines that view.
I know several former LibDems who were devasted that the LibDems propped up the last Govt and how Clegg and co were ‘played’ by the Tories. This will not win them back.
@ David Orbison. Did you speak out when the last Labour Government defended the ban on homosexuals serving in the armed forces? And did you speak out over the long delays over repealing Section 28? And did you speak out over the inequality in pension provision for gay couples when civil partnerships were introduced, an injustice which still exists today. I am afraid that all political parties and politicians from all parties have compromised and equivocated on issues affecting the LGBTQ community. But this election is not about LGBTQ issues. It is about Brexit, and it seems to me that your commitment to Labour and Corbyn, and your clear antagonism to the LDs, blinds you to this fact.
There seem to be (what Churchill described as) two gross ‘terminological inexactitudes’ in this post.
The first is from Dave Orbison (who I often agree with). Sorry, Dave, but you totally misrepresent Tim Farron……………. to use Alan Depauw’s term, if there were any ‘dirty tricks’ they originally emanated from the leadership campaign apparatchiks in North Norfolk. I’m sorry, but you’re wrong, Dave and you do Mr Farron a disservice..
The second inexactitude is from the old bruiser from Orkney and Shetland, Alistair Carmichael : “If you don’t want to come out of the single market, the Lib Dems are the only party who will speak up for you”.
Sorry, Alistair, but as a resident of Scotland I have the Greens and the SNP who can do that for me if I so choose, and the Lib Dems seem to have got themselves into an impossible bind with staying in the UK and staying in the EU – likely to be mutually incompatible at the moment. But then, that’s politics for you.
Prediction ? An all time low turnout………, but hopefully more Lib Dem MP’s despite all.
PS Don’t mention the coalition. Let dead dogs lie.
David Raw, You say “Don’t mention the coalition”. But the coalition is the main reason that people give when saying that they will not consider voting Lib Dem, although they may have done so in the past. It would be helpful if Tim Farron made a statement saying that he will not join a coalition with either of the main parties after the election, whatever the result may be.
@ Catherine. Yes, I completely agree. My comment was satirical.
Graham Evans – yes I certainly did shout out. So simply put I have no confidence in Tim Farron (or for the avoidance of doubt)!any other Leader who goes round ‘labelling’ gays as sinners. It’s quite simple. Nor am I comfortable with any of our Leaders wrapping the ‘cloak of Christianity around themselves or their policies’.
@Caracatus – Leave won after persuading a large number of voters that a soft Brexit was an option for us. It is now clear the government intends to pursue an extremely hard Brexit option. That’s not what the soft Brexiter supporters were persuaded to vote for. Both Remain and soft Brexiters absolutely can support continued single market membership and make the case that the government’s hard Brexit option is arrogant folly.
Speaking as a mainly Labour voter, who spent the five years of coalition raging at what I see as LibDem betrayal re the National Health and Social Care Act, I plan to vote LibDem at the coming election because of clear policies re brexit and the championing of our democratic rights to have a second look at the deal re brexit and an opportunity to change our minds in what was always a risky enterprise.I have never been a member of any party and always believed that Labour championed the underprivileged but find Corbyn and co have no chance of gaining power to facilitate this and am sickened at the ambush by hard left in the constituencies and by the ineptitude of Corbyn in offering lukewarm opposition to brexit,waving through Art 50.The final straw for me was hearing Corbyn say that now the real fight starts, the day after whipping his MPs to vote for art 50.
My own opinion is that the plan for an election is pure opportunism by May, to crush Labour, but also a chance to extend her power,before the likely recession when the proverbials hit the fan, also masking the fact that her three stooges will get a miserable deal.She wants to lock us in to perpetual Tory rule.
My close friends and family, who have similiar views,plan to vote LibDem too, at least to lend their vote, this time.
I know little about the technicalities of brexit, but feel totally disempowered, at the present time, as a remainer.I can see that there will be no deals,in advance, with Labour, with Corbyn in charge, but hope there will be some realignment with Labour, afterwards,once Corbyn has gone.I cannot see you doing a coalition, again, with the Tories, this time,which would have been my nightmare.Vince Cable as Chancellor,would be my dream ticket.I never in a million years thought I would write this.Please try not to be too factionalist, as it does hurt, when people voted for a different party,most of the time.
This is the issue of the generation and I want my grandchildren to be able to move and work freely in Europe.It is madness to dump the large trading partner on our doorstep.Good luck Libdem.Please excuse any typos as I have not very great eyesight.
I don’t think some of the people here understand the fundamental concepts of Christian belief include love thy neighbour as thyself, and judge not lest thee be judged. Whether or not one believes in a particular faith these concepts appear to be pretty “Liberal” and not bad concepts to “wrap oneself in”
Specifically on Mr Farron he has an excellent record in voting for and supporting LGBT rights and should be judged on this, not interpretation of what people think he might possibly have, might have meant twisted into a pretzel through a haze of preconceptions about how anti gay most Christians are coz everybody knows that they are innit
Farron is a Christian & thus “labels” humans as “Sinners”. All Humans.
This thread has been hijacked by a single Troll & should be closed.
It s , as a result of his ever responding in an appropriate way , humourous in response to humour , seriousness with regard to seriousness, impossible to say whether David Raw is being satirical.It is possible to see when he is being divisive , as in mention of Norman Lamb’s leadership campaign, mistakes by hangers on in no way denting the integrity and humanity in that superb exponent of Liberalism,so why bother too bring up that which Alan above does not dwell on.
Similarly those who prefer the EU in Scotland, to the UK, can leave this party and vote accordingly, for nationalists or greens, interesting , when to express any UK patriotism, rather than Scottish nationalism, is derided and mocked from the same people as “UKIP-lite “!
Dave
I do understand where you are on this, but , as someone brought up a Catholic , who has not so much rejected Catholicism, but embraced holism, and does not adhere in practice to any one religion, I do think , while Martin in his usual rather strong but caustic at times, style, does , on sin, get to the nub.
Tim thinks we are all sinners. It is an evangelical , for want of a more fulsome analysisof theological detail, attitude.
Many liberal Christians are in gay Christian , or supportive , movements . The liberal and progressive tendencies in the Judeo-Christian denominations that are liberal and progressive, ie such asLiberal and Progressive Judaism, liberal and progressive Quakers, Christian Unitarians, do not in any way see actively being gay, ie in practice as well as orientation, as sinful.
Tim is, as you know, Anglican. It has, in a pointless way for a Church of England, a land of real religious compromise going back hundreds of years, tied itself up in knots on this.
Tim has today in parliament , in answer to a very direct question from Nigel Evans, on hs views o being gay, answered it.
Evans: Do you think it a sin ?
Farron: NO!
Am I correct in thinking that after the Frenchgate affair and the excoriating comments by the Scottish Courts on his behaviour that Carmichael said he would not stand again for election? If so, why has he changed hi mind?
Having criticised Tim Farron on this matter, I am more than happy to welcome ‘his road to Damascus conversion’ in accepting that being gay is not a sin – as per his comments in Parliament yesterday. I assume that he is honest and sincere in expressing this view. Good. It does leave me wondering if that is the case why he couldn’t simply have said “No” when he was asked in the first place.
As for his being unwilling to rule out a coalition with the Tories well, oh dear…
God bless you margaret. 🙂