There are few books that I have read which have made me stop, think and completely re-evaluate my world view. “Jews don’t count” by David Baddiel was one of them and without a doubt the most important book I read last year.
The author’s argument is simple. There is a gap in the UK and much of the West for recognising Anti-Semitism and standing up against it. He directs his argument not against would be racists but quite deliberately at those who see themselves as progressives. The author frankly states that his personal belief as a British Jew that progressives treat Anti-Semitism as a lower-class concern compared to other forms of racism. The author believes this is the case for two main reasons, because Jews are seen by progressives as being privileged and not a true ethnic minority and therefore white. One is a shameful and misleading stereotype and the other is factually incorrect.
Much of the book consists of Twitter exchanges between the author and other commenters. These are chosen to illustrate the various ways that such people have sought to trivialise David Baddiel raising the spectre of Anti-Semitism. Many of these examples are really quite worrying. Baddiel seems to have quite a good grip on the characteristics and drawbacks for how such debates are held on social media. One thing has to trump another. It is about “owning” not discussing. In between nuance is lost. This has meant that when David Baddiel has called for Anti-Semitism to be given the same level of recognition as Black Lives Matter, sadly some supporters of the latter have seen this as a competition.
Sometimes it takes a good author to articulate what you have been thinking for a while. I thought that when he talked about those who seek to trivialise or downgrade the tragedy of the Holocaust (labelled as a genocide of “whites”), to allow for recognition of more “black” genocide’s such as King Leopold’s reign of the Belgian Congo. This is something that I have personally witnessed on internet debates and have found quite shocking. Is this world so full of suffering that we have to degrade ourselves further by having some kind of genocide Olympics to see which was the worst? Why can’t we just be united in acknowledging that all such chapters are shameful and should never have been allowed to happen? These are difficult things to talk about and confront, yet it is important that we do.
David Baddiel also points out what he calls the “blind spots” in British culture with regards to the equal treatment of Jews compared to other ethnic minorities. There are complaints about actors playing the parts of ethnic minorities that they are not a part of, yet non-Jewish actors play Jews all the time. British poets known for having had Anti-Semitic attitudes that are frowned upon do not have their entire characters written off compared to those who may have such attitudes against other minorities. The independent Equalities and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) called out the Labour Party’s leadership under Jeremy Corbyn for not doing enough to prevent an environment pervading in the highest echelons of the party that allowed Anti-Semitic attitudes to flourish. This has not stopped many defenders of Corbyn labelling legitimate concerns about the EHRC’s findings as right wing inspired attacks on him. David Baddiel ponders that if Corbyn was to have conducted himself in a similar with regards to racist attitudes toward another group, would his supporters think differently?
This book is a short sharp shock. It’s delivery is thoughtful, reflective but also unflinching. It is hard to believe that an ethnic group that experienced an organised genocide within living memory is having their concerns for safety trivialised by many. But along with the above incidences of concern, David Baddiel reveals the horrifying truth; violence against Jews is increasing, notably in Europe. I firmly believe that the mark of a true progressive includes the ability to practice honest self-reflection and accountability. Our party should be at the forefront of addressing this issue.
* Zachary Barker is a Lib Dem activist in Bristol.
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The inadequate concern and action to prevent anti-Semitism is correct but only one half of the picture. In 2019, the Jewish American journalist Peter Beinhart wrote “It is bewildering and alarming to be a Jew, both because anti-Semitism is rising and because so many politicians are responding not by protecting Jews but by victimising Palestinians”. He goes on “Anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitic and claiming it is, uses Jewish suffering to erase the Palestinian experience.”
I have been reading a book by Munther Isaac, a Palestinian Christian pastor and lecturer at Bethlehem Bible College. He is concerned about anti-Semitism and the attacks on the people of Israel but he reminds us very strongly that Palestinians are being forgotten by so many due to the suffering of the Jews. He knows from experience travelling around the world that too many in the West, supported by Conservative Evangelicals, are allowing their remembrance of the evil perpetrated against Jews to prevent them from condemning the evil perpetrated by Israel against Palestinians.
I abhor antisemitism. I also abhor the charge of antisemitism being levelled at those who campaign for Palestinian rights.
Does he offer any suggestions?
Today of all days it would be welcome if people could address the merits of Zachary’s review or Baddiel’s book instead of heading straight into whataboutery.
Baddiel is an American born British secular Jew with no links to Israel. He has written a book about anti-semitism. His book and any review of it does not automatically have to address any other injustice.
I have read Baddiel’s book, but not yet written a review. It is excellent.
As a simple example of how Jews don’t count, think of the number of people who have referred to Rishi Sunak as the country’s first ethnic minority PM.
PS. The first was of course Benjamin Disraeli.
David Baddiel is an effective communicator and presents ideas on this matter we need to consider, reflecting on the point that we perhaps don’t do enough and are guilty of this, and therefore we perhaps forget that he is not always very nice person as an individual and historically has proudly told stories of him being a bully.
“There is a gap in the UK and much of the West for recognising Anti-Semitism and standing up against it.”
It’s an interesting argument. The reality is probably more complex than we’d like – for example, not on LD Voice, in other political forums there is a fear of challenging what is now a extremely right wing Israeli government for fear of being accused of anti-semitism – and so a worthwhile piece of evidence to read and get an increased understanding of one viewpoint.
“The author believes this is the case for two main reasons, because Jews are seen by progressives as being privileged and not a true ethnic minority and therefore white.”
THEREFORE NOT WHITE
If what the original post means by this is that” white” actually means “privileged” and anyone who labours under some kind of discrimination, ignorance or pressure to conform is not “white” we are in deep trouble.
I agree with Ruth Bright. It is curious that nearly half the comments about a review of a book on antisemitism by a British author make reference to Israel as if that is the only thing the authors have to say on the subject.
Mohammed,
In England and Wales, there is an agreed list of ethnic groups you can use when asking for someone’s ethnicity. The groups are usually those used in the Census, which happens every 10 years. Those of Jewish ancestry (or any religious affiliation) are not classified as ethnic minorities as such. However, White Irish are – which presumably makes the Duke of Wellington (Arthur Wellesey) , born in Dublin, Ireland in 1769 (before Ireland was incorporated in the United Kingdom), the UK’s first ethnic minority PM pre-dating Benjamin Disraeli.
As all liberals know, with rights come obligations, including the obligation to respect the rights of others. We hear a lot about the rights of the Palestinians but very little about their obligation to respect the peace and security of Israel. To de-legitimise Israel and only Israel is anti-semitic.
@Mark Frankel You appear to be blaming ‘the Palestinians’ for the actions and attitudes of Hamas and the effective government of Gaza in much the same way as anti-semites conflate Israel and ‘the Jews’.
I don’t think responsibilities come with rights. They come with agency. Everyone (even the worst among us) have rights.
@Mark Frankel
“To de-legitimise Israel and only Israel is anti-Semitic”
This is a perfect example of how the charge of antisemitism is being used as a weapon to attack critics of Israel. Calling out a state for having a policy of systematically taking land from a minority group so as to built settlements for citizens of the occupying/majority group is absolutely the right thing to do – to suggest that this criticism is a form of antisemitism is a disgrace.
“Calling out a state for having a policy of systematically taking land from a minority group so as to built settlements for citizens of the occupying/majority group is absolutely the right thing to do – to suggest that this criticism is a form of antisemitism is a disgrace.”
Seconded.
@Nonconformistradical
Fully agree
@Iain Sharpe: Indeed, the article doesn’t mention Israel~Palestine at all. So it’s arguably off-topic. My only comment on that issue is to “plague on both their houses”. The extremists on both sides who perpetuate the conflict are made for each other, they are two sides of the same coin. And moderates on both sides are excluded from the discussion, which is a shame as it is only if moderate non-sectarian people take over from the violent extremist sectarian cartel that currently governs Israel and Palestine that there will be any hope of peace.
Predictably most of the commentary here is about Israel. Baddiel mentions Israel in passing in the book, but as he is British, not Israeli, the politics of Israel are nothing to do with him. He questions, rightly, why he should be expected to take more interest in Israel than in any other foreign country.
I wonder if there would be value in a parallel to Godwin’s law for this: in any discussion of antisemitism, the first person to mention Israel loses.
@Joe Otten
Perhaps I could expand on your suggestion…In any discussion of antisemitism the first person to mention Israel loses; In any discussion of Israel the first person to mention antisemitism loses.
Joe Otten. Mel Borthwaite: I think there is a difference betwen the two though. Bringing up Israel~Palestine in a discussion about antisemitism in (say) the UK is never appropriate. Bringing up antisemitism in a discussion about Israel? that depends on what is being said and who is saying it. Criticism directed specifically at the Israeli government and its policies (and I agree with the characterisation of the Netanyahu government as “far right”) is never antisemitic. But any commentary that implicates ordinary Israeli citizens or non-Israeli Jews in and holds them responsible for said government’s policy is antisemitic.
I often encounter anti-Semitism from all political directions increasingly from extreme groups on the left not just on the right. Symbols used inappropriately, graffiti on walls etc. Very little is done about it compared to other forms of religious hatted and intolerance. Then you have a rapper making anti Semitic music recently in the UK album charts who just gets away with it.
Alex,
when you say “any commentary that implicates ordinary Israeli citizens or non-Israeli Jews in and holds them responsible for said government’s policy is antisemitic”, consider the wider implications.
Was the Nazi state responsible alone for the holocaust or did the German people carry any responsibility for that genocide? Did ordinary British citizens (jingoistic or otherwise) carry any responsibility for the atrocities and racism perpetrated in the name of Empire? Do ordinary Russian citizens (including soldiers and their families) carry any responsibility for the reported war crimes being committed in Ukraine in their name?
Responsibility does not imply collective guilt or collusion, but we all have responsibility for our actions or omissions in calling out wrongdoing to the extent we are able to do so. That may not have been possible in Nazi Germany or currently in Russia, but it is possible in Israel via the ballot box, political opposition and a free press.
Israel’s government is a reflection of its people attitudes, just as the British government is a reflection of the attitude of British people. Not all or even most Israeli’s or Brits to be sure, but enough to win an election and form a government. There is a strong political opposition in both Israel and Britain, but that has not prevented the ongoing occupation of Palestinian lands. Israel has every right (and its government a duty) to defend itself against extremists, but not to annex its neighbours territory. How Israel conducts itself ultimately is the responsibility of the government and the citizens that elect that government.
@Joe Bourke — you’re missing a rather crucial part of Alex’s point, because the section you quote includes “or non-Israeli Jews”.
I’m a gentile and so wouldn’t want to claim personal knowledge of how prevalent antisemitism is in the UK, or claim that I can recognise every instance of it. I also am not a geopolitical expert, and couldn’t say with any confidence if Israel’s government is better or worse than others (though from my limited understanding it seems pretty bad).
But I *do* know that Jewish people who’ve spent their lives in the UK have no more responsibility for any Israeli government atrocities than I do, and quite possibly no more knowledge of them, and that an endless stream of whataboutery in this comment section, derailing the discussion to be about Israel when neither the article nor the book being discussed are about Israel or by Israelis, very clearly is an example of the problem being discussed.
Andrew,
I think the Jewish diaspora is viewed as an important source of support in Israeli politics to both the Israeli government and opposition parties alike. It is not a homogenous bloc anymore than political opinion is in the UK or USA.
British Jews are not considered a racially ethnic minority per se, they are a religious minority as are Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists etc. I too wouldn’t want to claim personal knowledge of how prevalent antisemitism is in the UK. However, to insist that to the extent it continues to exist in modern Britain or in Europe generally; it is racially based and unrelated to Jewish/Muslim tensions arising from the Israeli/Palestinian conflict would be a flawed assumption in my opinion. That would be akin to saying hostility to the Irish in Britain in the last century was based solely on racism and unrelated to the the troubles in Northern Ireland. David Baddiel writes – violence against Jews is increasing, notably in Europe. Surely, the question to ask is – are the perpetrators of that violence Islamic extremists, extreme leftists or is it coming from right-wing fascist groups or a wider section of society and unrelated to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict? In either case, it should be denounced, but I don’t see it as leading to the conclusion that there is a “blind spot” in British culture with regards to the equal treatment of Jews even if that may have existed in some elements of the Labour party.
What @Andrew Hickey said. And additionally, one cannot know whether any particular Israeli citizen is a supporter or opponent of the present government. So treating them as a ‘blob’ who all represent and support Netanyahu and his cronies is unfair and can be antisemitic.
“David Baddiel ponders that if Corbyn was to have conducted himself in a similar with regards to racist attitudes toward another group, would his supporters think differently?”
Reading this sentence, I can’t help but be reminded of the pretty deplorable – and racist – attitude of Baddiel, in the name of “comedy”, towards the footballer Jason Lee, to whom his apology was decades late and seemed to coincide cynically with the TV series based on Baddiel’s book.
Peter, reading the section on the Jason Lee sketch in the book, it is hard to doubt the sincerity of the apology. It was wrong, it weakens Baddiel’s personal moral authority, but it doesn’t weaken any of his arguments.
Alex Macfie,
any Israeli citizen is perfectly entitled to support Netanyahu and his party just as any British citizen is perfectly entitled to support any political party of his or her choice. That support does not justify in any way violence against them or against those Israeli citizens vehemently opposed to the Netanyahu government. Those electors that put in place a government in Israel have some responsibility for the actions of that government and all will suffer the consequences of that governments policies, just as we do under a Conservative government in the UK.
What is the cause of anti-semitism in the UK? Is it racial prejudice, religious discrimination or a mis-placed reaction to the actions of the Israeli government. I would venture to suggest that, in Britain at least, it is principally the latter and prevalent mostly among Islamic fundamentalists and far left groups. There may additionally be an element of far right discrimination, but that is directed against a wide range of foreign or non-christian minorities, not just those of the Jewish faith.
There appears to be scant evidence to suggest that there is a “blind spot” in British culture with regards to the equal treatment of Jews. Brits of Jewish ancestry have long ago assimilated into British culture, just as many other emigres from foreign shores have.
I would agree with Baddiel that racially or religious based anti-semitism should be given the same level of recognition as Black Lives Matter, but that does not mean that we should not recognise the clear distinction between racial or religious discrimination and objection to the actions of an Israeli government. The two should not be conflated, as they were in the Labour party where an environment was allowed to pervade that allowed Anti-Semitic attitudes to flourish. Many British Jews as well as many Liberal Democrats will be critical of the policies of the Israeli government and hence its electorate. That is not antisemitism any more than criticism of the Putin regime or its supporters is Russo-phobia or criticisms of Islamic extremists or their supporters is Islamophobia.
” Is it racial prejudice, religious discrimination or a mis-placed reaction to the actions of the Israeli government. I would venture to suggest that, in Britain at least, it is principally the latter”
So your argument then is that Jews are to blame for antisemitism?
“There appears to be scant evidence to suggest that there is a “blind spot” in British culture with regards to the equal treatment of Jews. ”
See… every comment in this thread…
“that does not mean that we should not recognise the clear distinction between racial or religious discrimination and objection to the actions of an Israeli government.”
Everyone does recognise that, as far as I can see. Everyone, that is, except for the numerous people in this thread, like those of a similar mindset elsewhere, who jumped into a thread posted on Holocaust Memorial Day, a thread whose initial post does not mention Israel at all, about a book that isn’t about Israel, written by someone who isn’t Israeli, to loudly and vehemently shout “CRITICISING ISRAEL ISN’T ANTISEMITIC!”
This weird Pavlovian response, of people angrily denying bigotries of which they haven’t been accused, is a very, very common one. And whatever the intention of the people in question (because they’re always very sure that their sacred good intentions are the things under debate) the result of it is always to silence and derail any actual discussion of the problem being raised, whether it’s “not all men” or “all lives matter” or “criticising Israel isn’t antisemitic”.
Andrew Hickey,
violence against Jewish institutions or Jewish people on the basis of ethnicity or religious belief in anti-semitism, pure and simple. It would be utter stupidity to say that Jews are to blame for antisemitism?
The principal perpetrators of violence against the Jewish community in modern Britain appear to be far left or Islamic fundamentalist groups that attempt to rationalise their actions on the basis of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. It is not the fascist anti-semitism of Mosley’s blackshirts in the 1930s. Far right groups have long since turned their attention to other immigrant groups. In recent decades their bile has been largely directed at the Muslim community.
If you don’t ask the right questions you will never get the right answers. Will insisting only Jewish actors play Jewish characters in plays or films; censoring historical writers that have displayed anti-semitic attitudes in the past; or deplatforming speakers who advocate a boycott of Israel (and fall foul of the IHRA definition of anti-semitism as a result) aid in protecting the Jewish community in Britain from attacks, or make people of Jewish ancestry feel more comfortable with their British national identity? If not, then what is the purpose of such comparisons with other anti-racism movements.?
The LibDems have adopted the IHRA definition of anti-semitism. As this article published by a UK Jewish campaign group points out, adopting that definition inevitably ties any discussion of anti-semitism anywhere to criticism of Israel Distorting the definition of antisemitism: silencing criticism of Israel
@Joe Bourke
Have the Liberal Democrat’s accepted the IHRA working definition of antisemitism alone, or also the 11 illustrative examples? I hope not the latter as I believe that most of those ‘examples’ are just an attempt to equate criticism of Israel with antisemitism.
It’s a bit like saying I am not racist but… or I am not anti-semitic but… I think I follow where you’re going. Strange how the S in semitic gets capitalised?
Mel,
there is a report on this site from 2018 https://www.libdemvoice.org/federal-board-decision-on-the-readoption-of-the-international-holocaust-remembrance-association-definition-of-antisemitism-58512.html
The party has adopted the 2016 International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition of antisemitism in full, including its worked examples. The Federal board at the time, confirmed that Liberal Democrats also believe that freedom of speech is a fundamental right and a key feature of any democratic society and noted the contents of House of Commons Home Affairs Select Committee’s 2016 report on Antisemitism in the UK in this regard which said:
– It is not antisemitic to criticise the Government of Israel, without additional evidence to suggest antisemitic intent.
– It is not antisemitic to hold the Israeli Government to the same standards as other liberal democracies, or to take a particular interest in the Israeli Government’s policies or actions, without additional evidence to suggest antisemitic intent.
I think those caveats about ‘additional evidence to suggest antisemitic intent’ are where this debate gets interesting. I am quite happy to criticise Israeli government policy and make comparisons with other liberal democracies, though I don’t make a habit of it, and there is a fine line to be taken if you are to keep in line with the definition of antisemitism with examples.
Equally though it is quite easy to do those things as a dog whistle, with antisemitic intent, and, if you’re careful, not to offer further evidence of antisemitic intent.
So what do we do? We do not know what is in somebody’s heart. But it is a pretty bad sign if somebody decides to do their criticism of the government of Israel in a space where others are trying to discuss the problem of antisemitism, with the effect – as it always seems to be – of derailing that discussion.
Peter, I think you need to know that David Baddiel has commented on things like this that he did a long time ago when he was much younger, beginning a TV career and which he clearly accepts were totally inappropriate. As such I think it would help if you reconsidered your post as it currently implies his current views (or lectures on racism as you prefer to call them) are irrevocably tainted by things he 30 years ago.
I think we all need to accept that people change over time and sometimes for the better.
@ Peter MartPeter, you may have missed the fact that David Baddiel later visited Jason Lee personally to apologise…… which Mr Lee accepted : “Jason Lee: Former footballer says David Baddiel apology ‘meant a lot’ “, BBC News, 24 November 2022
@ David,
Peter Watson has already made the point that ” his apology was decades late and seemed to coincide cynically with the TV series based on Baddiel’s book.” Nevertheless Jason Lee has been extremely gracious about it all.
I’m not sure I would have been. Frank Clarke who was Jason Lee’s manager at Nottingham Forest at the time appealed, to no avail, for both Baddiel and Skinner to stop. His take on it was quite right. A joke is a joke but the persecution and undermining of a young footballer, especially with its racial nature, who was doing his best to establish himself in the team went far beyond any accepted boundaries even for the somewhat different standards of the time.
So it wasn’t as if they both were unaware of what they were doing. At the time I was only vaguely aware that Baddiel was Jewish. I didn’t think Skinner was but I agreed with Frank Clarke’s assessment at the time that they were both over entitled white middle class yobos who were misusing their position in an appalling way. The BBC should have sacked them both there and then.
Peter, Indeed you may be right, but indeed Peter Watson may be wrong.
All in all, I think my point still stands.
I would urge you both not to judge solely on the basis of one thing (or even several things) from a person’s past.
The key question has to be is what a person is now doing and saying broadly help move things in the right direction. If you can find something to blame him for in his book – OK, by all means raise it here, but what he did 30 years ago?
David,
The events took place around 1995 when David Baddiel was around 31. So , this wasn’t some teenage lapse of judgement. He was old enough to know better especially if, as he claims, he himself had been subject to significant racism and bullying as youngster. Jason Lee would have been 24. Even without the implicit racism, say it had been directed at a young white player with an unusual hairstyle, the bullying ‘humour’ would still have been unacceptable.
Of course we can say better late than never. However, considering his history, he needs to prove his new found anti-racism generally rather than proclaiming his own expertise on the matter purely on account of his own Jewishness.
Peter, I am sad to say you seem to be more set in your choices than David Baddiel has proved to be. When you say things like
– ‘considering his history,’ (from thirty years ago);
– ‘he has to prove,’ (presumably to you – what measurable criteria would you set?);
– ‘proclaiming his own expertise’ (So do you regard first hand lived experience as not being a very useful component of expertise?);
– ‘purely on account of his own Jewishness’ (purely – do you really believe he has no other source of expertise?).
– ‘better late than never’ (Have you never been late and been motivated to continue your journey by such a comment?)
For goodness sake – Give the bloke a break!
David,
It’s not just me that has taken a cynical view on the David Baddiel “conversion” as you can see from previous comments. Apparently he’s claimed that being referred to by the Y word at a football match has caused him to rethink his attitude. He does Does this mean he was well into in 40s before receiving this kind of abuse? Is so he can hardly claim that his own career was adversely affected by racism. If not, and he had received personal abuse earlier, why was he dishing it out to others?
The actor Ricki Tomlinson had a dubious record politically in his younger days. I don’t think anyone questions his stated regrets now. So us lefties aren’t completely hard hearted and unforgiving!
https://countercurrents.org/2022/11/david-baddiels-hollow-racism-apology-to-jason-lee/
It is very indicative of any discussions of anti-semitism that it always descends into a discussion of Israel and the Palestinians.
David Baddiel’s book is not about Israel, nor about Palestine, it is about anti-semitism in the UK and the West generally. Most of the comments on this thread carefully avoid talking about the real problem Baddiel reveals in his book so that they can trumpet their pet hobby horse, namely the awfulness of the Israeli government.
Although my mother was Jewish, I have never experienced anti-semitism, quite probably because my mother abandoned her faith in favour of Christianity and I was not brought up with any real awareness of the Jewish religion.
So, I have to rely on accounts from people like David Baddiel, to bring home the fact that there is anti-semitism and that the UK is not tackling it.
As a lifelong Liberal I abhor intolerance of any kind. Perhaps people on this thread might like to address the issue that Baddiel raises instead of going off on tangents?
Mick, you are right to say there is anti-semitism in UK. The Labour and Lib-dem parties now do tackle it, but I stand by the quote in my first comment by Beinhart. Attempts to deal with it are undermined by silencing the voice of Palestinians and their supporters, by the linking of criticism of Israel to anti-semitism by supporters of Israel, the evil acts by some Israelis against the Palestinians and the racist nationalist act passed by the Israeli Parliament in 2018. These make it difficult to deal with the situation as something completely separate within the UK. See the link in Joe Bourke’s comment to “distorting the definition of anti-semitism” which takes you to the organisation of Jews called “Free Speech on Israel”. It is very revealing and needs to be seen alongside what Zachary Barker says in his article; in particular look at what that organisation says it is about.
Nigel Jones. Dealing with anti-semitism in the UK is nothing to do with the very real conflict in the Middle East and trying to drag Palestinian rights into it, however important they are, is not at all helpful.
David Baddiel wants us to realise the extent of anti-semitism in the UK and the West generally and as Liberals we should want to tackle it head on, not get sidetracked.
Also questioning Mr Baddiel’s past is just another way of avoiding dealing with anti-semitism. He has a very real insight into anti-semitism and we must not deflect attention from the need to deal with it.
The thesis that anti-semitism is taken less seriously than other forms of racism isn’t best made by someone who has suffered no ill consequences in their career from their own anti-black racism.
The description for this debate sums up both sides of the argument very well. Either we are of the opinion that ” To be anti-Zionist isn’t to be anti-Semitic – it’s to take a legitimate moral stand against Israel’s discriminatory practices.”
Or we “see anti-Zionism as a fig leaf for old-fashioned anti-Semitism”
So “Who’s right and who’s wrong?” We can all decide for ourselves, but it looks like most of us might just about be able to agree that we can’t separate the two issues.
https://www.intelligencesquared.com/events/anti-zionism-is-anti-semitism/
Peter Martin,
It’s interesting that you point to lefties not being completely hard hearted and unforgiving by reference to Ricki Tomlinson who is a very well know lefty, but when it comes to David Baddiel, whose political inclinations are not obviously left wing, your forgiveness is still effectively non-existent.
Virtually every comment you make you simply double down on your criticism either by commission or by omission, and the excuse “I am nice to my friends” doesn’t really cut it.
@ David Evans,
Mick Taylor was arguing that anti-semitism could somehow be treated as separate from anti-zionism. To some very small extent I would agree. There are some misguided, or even evil, individuals in our midst who might racially abuse Jewish people in the street and who may even desecrate synagogues and Jewish cemeteries etc.
However I don’t believe this is what David Baddiel is getting at. He’s aiming at the progressive left who can only be said to be anti-semitic if we accept the argument put forward by Melanie Phillips, Einat Wilf and others that anti-zionism is the same as anti-semitism. David Baddiel may not have said so in so many words but if he can claim to know what is in the back of others’ minds maybe we can have a pretty good guess about what he’s secretly thinking too!
So, can we please know what we are being charged with exactly? The old fashioned type of anti-semitism or a more recent anti-zionism which is being (mis)interpreted as the same thing ?
>There are complaints about actors playing the parts of ethnic minorities that they are not a part of, yet non-Jewish actors play Jews all the time.
Following this logic to its natural conclusion, the Danish royal family would have a nice little earner providing actors for productions of Hamlet…
Yes, we should ensure that the pool of actors is rich in diversity and that producers should be encouraged to use this pool to provide differing perspectives and interpretations, but to pretend the stories told on the stage should portray the real-world is a step down the road of madness.
Peter Martin, If you want to enter into debate, I suggest you debate with me on points raised by me and you, not points made by someone else. I believe a term you would understand to describe what you are doing is raising Red Herrings, which is somehow very appropriate in your case.
David
@ David,
Please consider the points raised by myself then! So I’ll ask again the questions raised in the last paragraph of my last comment.
You might want to look up that such terms as ‘globalist’ are considered to be evidence of antisemitism in some circles. Even to be anti-capitalist is said to be anti-semitic too. Please Google if you doubt this. So it’s a minefield! I would say this is a deliberate tactic designed to keep shut down discussion on both Israeli excesses and socialist principles generally.
@Peter Martin,
No, Peter. We finish one discussion and then if we both wish it we can discuss something else. Don’t try to pretend that you asking a random question about someone else’s point constitutes a valid response. If you don’t want to stick to the point, and finish a debate, I suggest it would be polite of you to say so and not waste my time. It would also mean you don’t waste your own.
@ David,
I really don’t understand what you mean. Anyway I’ve asked you to specify exactly what we’re being charged with – which is a fair question. But, if you don’t know then you don’t know.