In Lancing in early 2013, in the heart of the Adur Valley region of English South Coast, our campaign team was putting together a strategy for the May 2013 county elections.
Not long ago, Lancing and Sompting were Liberal-run towns. Lib Dem councillors had recently brought a French market to Lancing, and a local entrepreneur has just introduced direct flights to Paris from our airport in Shoreham. Local businesses export their products to Europe through Shoreham Port. Hundreds leave the South Coast in mobile homes, trains and planes for European holidays every year.
People could be expected to support a pro-EU message from the Lib Dems, alongside our strong record on local issues, it was concluded. After all, Europe is important to people here.
This was a mistake. Not just because some of the residents of Lancing are among the 20 million people in the UK who regularly read the Daily Mail’s views on the EU. Not just because Farage visited Lancing. And not just because people read his policies, as clearly stated on his leaflets, and they liked them.
This was a mistake because it was a missed opportunity. We did not recognise that even for those who travel regularly to other European countries, and those who appreciate the benefits of doing business in the EU and Eurozone, our current deal with the EU has scope for improvement.
The European Project (and there is one, which we should not ignore) is based on important economic and political objectives. Integrated economic union is plain good sense if you are Belgian, Dutch or Polish.
In Britain, nationally and locally, we must explore our options – and preferably without a right or wrong answer. A referendum would give us a chance to explore the arguments, and clear the air.
If Nick Clegg were to argue that we should bring this referendum forward, and hold it before the next general election, we’d catch a divided Tory party on the hop. We would remove the imperative to re-elect Cameron in order to secure the referendum by 2017.
With Labour likely to come out in support of the referendum before 2015, it would be unfortunate if we ended up as the last major party to support giving people this choice.
As Liberal Democrats we are advocates of a more representative democracy in this country. We are the only party with power to put the outdated and unstable, polarizing two-party system behind us for good. We should support a referendum on UK EU membership, and support it wholeheartedly.
* Jemima Bland is the Liberal Democrat Parliamentary Candidate for East Worthing and Shoreham
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46 Comments
“A referendum would give us a chance to explore the arguments, and clear the air.”
I generally agree with this article, Lib Dems could boost themselves to call for Cameron to bring the referendum to before the next election (or at least during it), making it clear they are standing for a pro-EU, reformed or otherwise, stance. The inevitability of a referendum is growing, and to stand on the outside just shaking your head is foolish.
HOWEVER. Let’s be realistic. A referendum is not the place for exploring the arguments, it’s the place for finding the top two or three, usually factually incorrect, soundbites that each side will hope to sway the voting public who *do not have the time* to consider something as complex as the EU in it’s entirety, let alone when you also add in the added confusion of an abstract and as yet undecided “reformed” EU as a possible outcome.
If this is to be done properly the Lib Dems should not only be calling for the referendum, but also for a preceding period of independent informing of the public of the realities of how the EU operates, why it is what it is, and other “neutral” information. It is not the job of two biased sides to “inform” the public on an issue that can have global consequences.
Madness. Nick Clegg would lose any and all remaining credibility within Westminster and the country. After assuring us he won’t let the Government be forced right, he’d be exposed as the ultimate Tory poodle. This is likely to be the Tory #1 demand so why are we even considering giving in? If it was in exchange for STV for Parliament & council elections, scrapping Trident, mansion tax, or full Lords reform then maybe, but conceding for anything less would be bonkers. And we’d allow the Tories to lance the UKIP boil which is vital for us to be red and angry in 2015.
tpfkar: Lib Dems have the opportunity to shape a referendum to be done fairly, and in a balanced way…after 2015 the likelihood is that a referendum will happen without Lib Dems having any influence. If the Lib Dems have any sense, they’ll use this opportunity while it’s present, especially since the Tories will be jumping to do a deal on this now…and how often do the Lib Dems have the chance to make a populist jump on the Tories AND maintain their pro-EU stance?
The Lib Dems need to do things now if they want to remain in a coalition after 2015, this is an easy win.
The entire EU “debate” has been completely poisoned by misinformation that I really fear the outcome. The reality is if we were to leave our major trading partner would still be the EU (probably still 50% of our trade). The net effect is that we would be unable to do anything that radical. This means any pipe dreams that UKIP/Tories might have about restructure our economy after leaving the EU would be exactly that (unless they wanted to pick a fight with the EU which they would almost certainly lose – only 10% of the average EU countries trade is with the UK)! Meanwhile having left we would be in a weaker position to negotiate free trade agreements with other powers (USA, BRICs etc).
I honestly think that best approach for the Lib Dems is to keep some clear water between the increasingly shrill rhetoric from the Tories (as they try to combat UKIP in conservative working class areas). Instead they should focus on picking up some Tory seats in the home counties where I suspect many liberal minded voters will be supportive of EU free trade and dislike the level of xenophobia from the Tories .
Given the trajectory into debt-servitude of the Eurozone periphery (and soon France) combined with eye-watering increases in unemployment (65% unemployment in ages 18-25 in Greece reported today) one may wonder exactly what type of European Union we might be voting on by 2017.
I agree with you Lee. An informed debate and a ‘real’ referendum is exactly what we need. At the moment it’s as if UK membership of the EU was a private policy discussion between the Tories and Ukip. We need a wide open debate and then perhaps the business community and others will feel comfortable with contributing to it. This affects all of us and Lib Dems should be the first, not the last, to recognise that.
Whilst I don’t the support the view that we should have a referendum now (though I can see merit in what you propose), as it would add to economic and investment uncertainty at the time we need it, it certainly is time the party started stand-up and be more vocal in our support for Europe.
We are letting an anti-EU force set out its stall, dominate news and set the agenda and a vaccum is being created where a pro-campaign should be. Better Together are doing a fanastic job in Scotland and it is time for a similar movement for Europe and, as it stands, only the LibDems are in a position to begin the process of establishing a cross-party pro organisation by reaching out to like-minded Labourites and Tories.
It shouldn’t be the dominant policy in our platform, domestic policies should be front and centre, but if we don’t fight for Europe who will?
“our current deal with the EU has scope for improvement.”
Totally agree, which would seem to indicate that the real question isn’t so much about in or out, but do we want to improve our deal and relationship or not…
Lee – I have sympathy with your first comment. In practice the mechanics of a referendum would be agreed with the Electoral Commission so there would be a degree of fairness, and there is nothing that will stop the Daily Mail and Tory right-wing from trying to take over the debate. So I’m not sure that Lib Dem influence will somehow make a difference before 2015 in a way that it won’t after.
I do agree with ATF that we as a party need to make the case and lead the debate, but I’ve never accepted calling for a referendum as part of that debate, and the idea that we’ll get respect and votes from those anti-EU because we called for a referendum seems speculative at best.
It’s an easy win all right….but for the Tories. If we are considering a deal here, before 2015 or after, the price has to be a Tory sacred cow as I’ve suggested, and no doubt others will have better suggestions.
” Integrated economic union is plain good sense if you are Belgian, Dutch or Polish.”
It’s plain good sense if you are British. The EU question shows why referendums are not a good idea. We had our referendum. We voted once and for all for ever closer union as agreed under the Treaty of Rome. Now you can hear all sorts of specious arguments for another one. And when we vote yes again, after years of uncertainty? Then they’ll be back, wanting another one, claiming they didn’t understand the question, thought they were voting for something else, or somesuch. Meanwhile Britain will have lost out massively, yet again.
Even more pernicious is Cameron’s strategy, to give us a choice between watered down EU membership or nothing. The only things wrong with ‘our’ deal with the EU is that we are already half out. We aren’t in Schengen, so we don’t get freedom of movement and we aren’t in the euro, so our business has to live with the massive extra cost and uncertainty that comes with the pound.
tpfkar ” Lib Dems have the opportunity to shape a referendum to be done fairly, and in a balanced way…”
Mmm. We made a real success of doing that for the AV referendum, as I recall.
I think, politically, going for an early referendum is a good idea. Faced with the enormity of the choice, a lot of British people might hesitate to hit the ejector seat. It’s hard to argue that it’s “right-wing” to offer a referendum. But there is a very real question to be asked – is it little more than a gimmick designed to deal with a domestic political issue or is it a real question about the UK’s future? There is wide agreement on the need to re-examine the UK’s relationship with the EU and to work harder to reform that institution. Does it really make sense to hold the referendum before that has happened? I know this makes me sound like I’m parotting Cameron’s line, but it might be that in this case his line makes sense. Across Europe people are falling out of love with the EU. We should be working to tackle that and then asking people if they like what they see.
Jemima, can you tell us what exactly DID happen in Adur?
For many years there was a strong and consistent Liberal then Liberal Democrat presence, then quite suddenly it all seemed to disappear.
It seems to me that in this country there is a small group of very wealthy and influential people who oppose membership of the EU because they don’t like the way it is tackling the international wealthy elite playing one country against another. Apart from this, most people who say they are against EU membership really don’t know much about it, to quite a large extent they are just picking up the anti-EU sentiments being pushed through the national media by the wealthy elite without realising what their game plan is. Try asking them WHAT exactly it is they don’t like about the EU – whenever I’ve done so, the only answers I ever get back are essentially a précis of Daily Mail/Sun etc editorial comment on the subject.
I suspect that in Lancing UKIP is just fitting into a hole left by the collapse of the Liberal Democrats, that is, people are voting for it because it’s what there is if you don’t want to vote Tory.
Jenny Barnes – indeed, You attributed the quote to me but it was written by Lee Griffin in response to me.
Hi Matthew. What happened in Lancing at the Counties this year was that UKIP took both of the two Lancing & Sompting County Council seats with 50% of the vote on a 30% turnout. We polled only 7%, the Tories 26%, with a particularly large swing away from them in North Lancing and Sompting. It was only the County seats that was up this time, not Adur district council. As you say, we used to hold the whole of Adur district and Lancing and Sompting were both all Liberal towns in the 1970s, which people remember well. The local party is now gearing up again. There is clearly considerable fluidity in the vote and we will come back stronger next year and the years afterwards, (working all year round of course), our lessons having been learnt.
I would like to remind everyone that in 2014 , we allready have the European parliamentary and local elections as well as the Scottish referendum. does any one want another referendum on top of this existing elections.
Seriously folks, is Europe such a magnificent ship, going places?
I can understand why MEP’s and their ‘hangers on’, want to see the continuance of Europe, but why are the rest of LibDems so blind to the flipping obvious?
Has no-one noticed how the Berlin-Brussels Quad, like the resolute quartet of the Titanic, play yet one more tune, trying to sooth the nerves of ‘steerage’, as the EU Titanic bounces from one iceberg to the next creating large gaping holes in the hull, in the regions of Greece, Portugal, Cyprus, with water pouring over the flood barriers, into Italy and Spain?
And madcap Cameron, (who I predict, will NOT be PM at the time of the 2015 election!), wants to negotiate a better deal within Europe before he graciously (tugs forelock,~ to show servile gratitude), allowing us plebs a referendum. Hmm…, great idea David, can’t wait for you to negotiate a cabin upgrade. just before the stern of the ship lifts 100 metres into the air.
Seriously people, there’s too much water pouring in. Lets vote to get off this sinking ship now.
“In practice the mechanics of a referendum would be agreed with the Electoral Commission so there would be a degree of fairness”
I don’t believe this is a reality in practice. The Electoral Commission runs it, but they have a budget as far as I’m aware…where the Lib Dems come in is in the charging of the EC to do a better job than they did with the AV referendum. The state of our relationship with the EU deserves more than a leaflet through the door with a brief synopsis of the arguments from both sides and a poorly worded “how it works” example! If the Lib Dems aren’t going to get involved and fight for a truly informative referendum, then who will?
The Right know that people are generally slightly in favour of the EU when the balance of evidence is in front of them, it’s not in the interest of the Tories or UKIP to make this a fair fight.
“I would like to remind everyone that in 2014 , we allready have the European parliamentary and local elections as well as the Scottish referendum. does any one want another referendum on top of this existing elections.”
Sounds like the perfect time to me, though perhaps too soon to be realistic! I reckon people would rather visit the polling booth once for all of them rather than over and over again, don’t you?
It isn’t Britain’s deal with Europe that needs improving. It’s Europe’s deal with Europe.
The euro is a technical disaster. The various financial bandages which have been plastered all over it, in a vain attempt to cure the patient, have failed and will continue to fail. There are only two long term options: a (greater or smaller) United States of Europe which uses the euro, or else the abandonment of a common currency.
Europe is shying away from this hard choice, preferring to kick the can down the road. A British renegotiation and/or referendum would probably only provide another convenient distraction, an excuse for Europe to take its eyes off the ball. An excuse to delay the eventual confrontation, when Southern Europe must climb off its knees and tell Germany that it, too, has some hard new lessons it must learn.
Given the chaos to come, the Kippers are on a one-way bet, and they know it. If they win a referendum, they will cheer. If they lose it, they will come back again, once Europe has decided its real future shape, and demand a re-run. They will say that everything has changed, and that the question demands to be asked again. They will have a considerable point.
Our response to that should therefore be that it would be crazy to have a referendum now, when everything is so unstable, and we don’t have a clue what shape Europe will end up in.
It’s a dumb idea. Why? Because the spittle flecked crazies who want to leave the EU won’t accept a NO anyway. If the UK votes to remain in the EU (like it already has) they will simply ignore the verdict and keep demanding a new plebiscite, right until they get the answer they want.
“A referendum would give us a chance to explore the arguments, and clear the air.”
That might sound good in theory. In practice there will be no meaningful “exploring of arguments” in a referendum as the only thing focused on will be winning.
The evidence from referenda worldwide is that a huge number of people cast their ballots on how much they dislike or like the government and its leader in particular. Tying the fate of the UK to David Cameroon’s popularity is something to be REALLY careful about…
Yes let us have a referendum as soon as possible to end the uncertainty.
There is however one thing we need to do first. We need to extend the power of the Advertising Standards Agency to cover advertising during the referendum campaign. Otherwise the entire campaign will be spent rebutting claims that the EU do not allow Brits to eat straight bananas etc etc.
@nuclear cockroach – re “spittle-flecked crazies”. I well remember attending a Lib Dem conference fringe session about 10 years ago – I think it was in Brighton – where a speaker from UKIP was invited to put his case against joining the Euro. As a naive young-ish quant working in The City specializing in mathematical risk models, I had no real opinion on the Euro as it was outside my area of expertise.
I went to the meeting with an open mind. It was clear that the intention was to show that the UKIP speaker was of the salivatory tendency characterized by your epithet. I left absolutely convinced that what he said was logically sound and that the Liberal Democrats were hopelessly wrong in supporting the Euro. I have seen no reason to resile from that view to this day.
Now clearly the issue here is not joining the Euro (I would venture to suggest that even the Lib Dems are shying away from that one) but can I respectfully suggest that when you dismiss your opponents using colourful language, you are confident of the strength of your case?
The use of an argument that can be paraphrased as “they’d like to make us keep voting until we give the right answer” is – I assume – knowingly arch, given that this is what has repeatedly happened over the last decade as sovereign nation after sovereign nation has been relentlessly pounded into ceding sovereignty to Brussels.
Many Liberal Democrats will have assumed that the ineluctable power of their arguments would persuade the electorate to support AV, and we know how well that went, don’t we.
I’m in favour of a referendum, but not before 2015.
So much wishful thinking in this article, it is almost touching.
Referendums tend to be less about the question and more about who is asking the question, which is why Cameron’s promise is so foolhardy and why any referendum in the midst of an economic downturn will be more swayed by tangential rather than core issues.
Support a referendum if you wish but do not expect any better outcome than from the AV referendum.
How does one explain the call at the party’s call at the time of the Lisbon treaty for an in /out referendum and any opposition to one now without seeming to support referendums only when there is little chance of them occurring – presumably on the grounds that the British public may make a disastrous mistake egged on by a rabid press ? . A nice word for this is paternalism but it it’s not obviously liberalism.
Jemima Bland
As you say, we used to hold the whole of Adur district and Lancing and Sompting were both all Liberal towns in the 1970s, which people remember well.
That doesn’t answer my question. The Liberals were the majority group in Adur when it was set up after the 1973 local government reforms, and though the Tories could win it back in a good year for them, it remained mostly Liberal at least into the 1980s, and I think in the 1990s. I was active in Brighton and Hove in those days, where the Liberals were in a fight with Labour as to who would emerge the main challenger to the Conservatives, and we used to look at Adur and see a place where that battle was long over and the Liberals had won. The collapse of the Liberal (by then LibDem) presence in Adur took place after I had moved to London, so I never really knew what had happened, but it seemed to be very sudden – the party went from a majority to just one or two councillors in the space, I think, of about five years.
You say the lessons have been learned, fine, but I think the rest of us might like to learn those lessons as well. Just why did a long-standing successful Liberal group so suddenly implode?
John Dunn
Seriously folks, is Europe such a magnificent ship, going places?
No-one is saying it is.
This is what really annoys me about the EU debate. Anyone who does not hold to the UKIP position that the EU is the source of all evils, and who feels that on balance membership is beneficial gets accused of thinking the EU is “magnificent” or similar words, gets accused of being unable to see anything wrong with the way it is set up and works at present.
The vast majority of us hold to a position somewhere between that. Indeed, I have never met a Liberal Democrat member who holds to the position that the EU is “magnificent” despite the right-wing press continuing to throw that accusation at us. Positions may vary, but most people are of the view that while there’s plenty that’s good about the EU, which rarely gets any sort of coverage in the British media, there’s also a lot about it that needs changing.
In fact, the absurd overblown language UKIP and people like you, John Dunn, use about the EU has tended to push me towards a more pro-EU position. I don’t think a serious debate can be had about it when those opposed just use that sort of language and dismiss anyone who is not 100% in agreement with it as people who think everything about the EU is perfect and wonderful.
a lot of good sense, and passion, spoken above… but why don’t we cut the rug and make the European elections next year into a ‘referendum’. We are clearly ‘IN’; Ukip are sclearly ‘OUT’, let the others explain where they are and vote accordingly..
Yes, govt needs to do all the informing about how Europe works and we need to be positive about how it needs to change.. show our vision for UK being at the heart of Europe, publicise what it does for us, debunk the myths…
… but we certainly need an act of parliament to ban lies in literature and for the provision of neutral information to every voter.. or as said above it will be a repeat of the AV debacle with the tabloids misleading the public again.
One could be forgiven in believing that the argument for staying in the EU is already lost.Pro Europeans in our party and others have never been whole hearted because of the obvious defects in the way that the EU conducted its business.The two site arrangement is a classic one.Lib Dems made a judgement in the last parliament that was basically telling others to stop mucking about(in the words of Kenneth Williams) if they wanted to undermine the EU or simply misrepresent it then we should have a clear the air referendum. Of course knowing full well that noone would take up the offer.A referendum now would only be a stick w hich the voters would use to berate the parties of government(local govt elections 2013)..a vote would end our membership and the Country would spend decades trying to sort the mess out,as Europe moved on.
The next election will remove the Tories and Milliband is unlikely to open this can of worms, where are we,as usual, on the outside shouting in
Just had breakfast with a civil servant working in EU affairs. She is concerned about the level to which this debate is polarised and politicised, inhibiting discussion of the facts. Even our own civil servants, in Brussels and London, find it difficult to make a cold analysis of the facts while they risk offending the reds or the blues.
The EU Balance of Competences review going on across Whitehall at the moment is due to report before 2015. We need these facts to be neutral, so that we can actually know for sure what is good for us and what is less good for us about the EU. Surely it is now time for a politically neutral debate? This may sound naive to some, but I’d like to hear a single good reason why we shouldn’t have a referendum which asks a genuine question and expects a genuine answer?
The alternative, as we saw with AV, is that the only answer we get is an illustration of which political block is better funded and has more vested interests. Why do we sit back and let the rival interests of Labour and the Tories decide such a vitally important question for us? Referenda should not be ‘lost’ or ‘won’, they should be debated and considered openly by society as a whole. That would be our fairer and stronger society in action.
@ Chris – “It’s plain good sense if you are British. The EU question shows why referendums are not a good idea. We had our referendum. We voted once and for all for ever closer union as agreed under the Treaty of Rome. ”
http://www.harvard-digital.co.uk/euro/pamphlet.htm
As noted in another thread:
If you want Britain to remain within the EU then the lib-dem’s had better put their shoulder behind Camerons attempt to renegotiate our membership back to a trade relationship with bells on, because:
Barroso’s federal europe is coming to a screen near you soon, starting with the soon to be economically converged eurocore, and that threatens our economic independence via caucused decision making managed by the ECB/EBU which is then foisted on the eurozone-outs.
To quote Gladstone:
“The finance of the country is intimately associated with the liberties of the country. It is a powerful leverage by which English Liberty has been gradually acquired … It lies at the root of English Liberty, and if the House of Commons can by any possibility lose the power of the control of the grants of public money, depend upon it, your very liberty will be worth very little in comparison …That power can never be wrenched out of your hands… That powerful leverage has been what is commonly known as the power of the purse – the control of the House of Commons over public expenditure – your main guarantee for purity – the root of English liberty. No violence, no tyranny, whether of experiments or of such methods as are likely to be made in this country, could ever for a moment have a chance of prevailing against the energies of that great assembly. No, if these powers of the House of Commons come to be encroached upon, it will be by tacit and insidious methods, and therefore I say that public attention should be called to this.”
Regarding caucused voting via the EBU:
“De jure incentives to take common position: This incentive is reinforced by the way the Commission’s ECB/EBA Regulations are currently drafted. For example:
• The ECB Regulation envisions the ECB acting as a coordinator of eurozone national supervisors, with the view for them to take a common position. The ECB has already dropped hints that it intends to actively discourage dissenting opinions amongst eurozone national supervisors.
• Through a eurozone caucus, some member states will indirectly boost their influence as their voting weight amongst eurozone countries is proportionally much greater than in the EU-27 (EU-28 with Croatia). This is particularly true of the larger eurozone member states.
• The safeguards proposed by the European Commission (see Section 5 below) leave the eurozone with the upper hand. Given that the 17 eurozone countries already constitute a simple majority, these countries would only need to seek the support of three ‘outs’ – whereas non-euro countries would need at least four countries.
De facto incentives to take a common euro position: To avoid banks free-riding on taxpayers in creditor countries, the ECB, Germany and others could well insist on putting into place perfectly harmonised eurozone regulations before moving to financial backstops. This could include single-target capital requirements, rules on leverage or bonuses – and could even spill over to market access issues. In turn, this would heavily shape decisions at the EBA, as the eurozone is unlikely to accept an uneven playing field within EU financial services as a whole.De facto incentives to take a common euro position: To avoid banks free-riding on taxpayers in creditor countries, the ECB, Germany and others could well insist on putting into place perfectly harmonised eurozone regulations before moving to financial backstops. This could include single-target capital requirements, rules on leverage or bonuses – and could even spill over to market access issues. In turn, this would heavily shape decisions at the EBA, as the eurozone is unlikely to accept an uneven playing field within EU financial services as a whole.
Taken together, the EBA structure will therefore significantly shift the balance of power in favour of the eurozone, at the expense of the UK and other ‘outs’.”
If negotiation can separate EXPLICITLY the single market from economic governance then we may have a future in the EU, which is the result I would like to see. But if that cannot be achieved then we will be heading out for a nation is either:
1. a broadly sovereign state within the EU (As Britain might hope to be by retaining sovereign powers-of-the purse in a post-convergence EU)
2. a functioning part of a larger sovereign entity as the euro-core will become (As members of the post-convergence eurozone will become)
The only other alternative is being a dependent adjunct to a larger sovereign entity. A Sanjak, in short, much as Greece was and is again today.
Becoming an EU Sanjak is neither liberal nor democratic, so propose me a solution because otherwise we will be leaving…………
Jemima
Why are you blaming the ‘Reds and Blues’? Labour have been very quiet on this issue and are not trying to force anything on anyone from what I can see
The current issues around a referendum are a purely inter-Governmental spat with the Tories wanting an immediate referendum (if Cameron votes for the amendment as suggested in the, not so reliable, Sun ) and the LD blocking it, despite it being called for by Clegg not so long ago.
I agree with you a referendum has to have a clear and genuine question – the only one really is in/out the others would be fudges, especially the one that the leader of the Government of which you are a part wants.
It amazes me with the weakness of Cameron and his ineptitude that the LD still follow him through the lobbies, despite all the hot air rhetoric generated.
People have got to remember that the Lib Dems made a lot of noise about an in-out referendum during the last parliament (the noise obviously being intended to distract people from the fact that having previously campaigned for a referendum on an EU constitution they were opposing a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty) – but in this parliament they have been saying they oppose an in-out referendum.
Given all that, changing back to supporting an in-put referendum now would only make the party look even more ridiculous and unprincipled – and probably no one would believe a word of it anyway, considering the track record.
At around 10% in the polls, does the party really have that much to lose by putting forward a straightforward pro-EU line, rather than making further attempts to pander to the Euro-sceptics?
@peter.tyzack: One could argue that European elections are already treated as opinion polls on whether the UK should be in or out of the EU. However, that is not the purpose of European elections, because it is not something that MEPs have any power over. Whether you want the UK in or out of the EU is a UK domestic issue, NOT a European issue. We should run our European election campaign on how Lib Dem MEPs represent voters in Brussels and Strasbourg more effectively than the other parties do, becuase that is what the European Parliament is for. Unfortunately, they often seem to be selling the EU to voters, rather than representing the interests of their electorate in the EU. [One example is the recent mailing that Sarah Ludford sent out on the European Arrest Warrant, arguing against the Tories’ desire to pull out of it; but what EU initiatives the UK participates in is a domestic matter; as an MEP, Sarah should be focusing on campaigning to reform the EAW system to eliminiate the obvious abuses such as extraditing people for allegedly stealing a bicycle 10 years ago.] Perhaps this is understandable when faced with obvious misinformation from opponents of the EU, making it near-impossible to have a proper debate on specifics of EU policy. And I know our MEPs do fight for the interests of their voters, and for liberalism, in the chamber. I just say that they, and the party as a whole, must not lose sight of the actual purpose of the European Parliament, and the reasons why we elect representatives to it. Allowing the European elections to become a referendum on the EU would play into the hands of the Eurosceptics.
If we have a referendum on the EU because there is so much public concern on it, why not a referendum on other issues? Why no referendum on the changes to the NHS this government is pushing through? Why no referendum on the sale of OUR Royal Mail to private business? Why is it that the proposed topics for referendums which are pushed on by the right-wing press are always issues where the right-wing think they can win a popular vote more than would vote for right-wing political parties? That’s one of those Paul Daniels questions, isn’t it?
There is no point in being involved in a referendum debate because there will be no debate worth speaking of. It will turn into a kick the LibDems, like the AV referendum for some voters, and loads of diatribes and lies from the largest circulation papers, I refuse to describe the Sun or Mail as NEWSpapers.
The trouble with referendums is that voters don’t answer the question you asked them!
@Matthew Huntbach – re. why did Adur Lib Dems implode.
There is no doubt that this is seen in many places – I lived in Harrow in the 1980’s when the Liberals were a large and dynamic group, now reduced to one councillor. I also lived in Leicester where 10 years ago the Lib Dems ran the council and (like Harrow) are now reduced to one councillor. In Islington (where I also lived) they’ve gone from 38 out of 48 in 2002 to 11 today.
Gosh – putting it like that, I seem to be some sort of typhoid mary sowing Lib Dem destruction in my wake! I’m now in Twickenham, so Richmond Lib Dems beware!
But I think the problem for the Lib Dems is that groups often seem to crystallize around one or two strong individuals, and when they depart (for whatever reason) entropy takes over.
Matthew Huntbach re Adur – I don’t have any inside information but it is something I have puzzled about. I remember Labour winning Brighton Kemptown in 1964 (by 7 votes), their first ever seat in Sussex. I suspect that the foundation of Sussex University created a permanent reservoir of Labour Party activists who have built the party’s strength in Brighton over the decades, extending into Hove (traditionally a Tory stronghold) and Portslade which I think was solidly Liberal when we controlled Adur. There has been considerable social change in this area as well over the decades which has probably helped Labour, and this has happened in other south coast towns too. Hastings was a three-way marginal in 1997: our council presence is now zero, Labour won every county seat there last week with our vote at a derisory level (please don’t give up). Bournemouth is another town which we controlled recently and where we had hopes of parliamentary seats, but which now looks hopeless. The Isle of Wight where we controlled the council and had the MP until 2001 now has one LibDem councillor. Traditional explanations for problems like these were feuds within the local party and the departure of key activists: now there are plenty of other explanations for why our support is withering away.
As far as I am concerned all you political parties will say/do anything to get elected again….you have no real interest in our country and how it has changed since 1997 when Liebour allowed anyone and everyone in. I work in the Gulf, Middle East and North Africa and my Arab friends cannot believe what goes on in the UK.
Democracy….is certainly not alive and well in UK especially England.
All you parties are getting worried because UKIP have you rattled and you have no real anwers because all the leaders and the vast majority of MPs have no experience of real life, ever run a company or had to live on minimum wages have they?
Our pensioners are treated dispicably…….whilst our immigrants (illegal and legal) live it up!
UK is broken because of corrupt governents who waged illegal wars….what is different between Bliar and Assad? Both have killed thousands in different ways!
Your opening comments and stories are naive and parochial, and to a large extent can be linked to the reason that UKIP has had success in your area. You are either deceitful or failing to see the real problems with Europe go much deeper than the ability to buy some Brie in your local market. In a Britain outside the Political and Federal union they seek, none of that will change, the French will still want to sell you cheese and wine, and will still welcome the import of your money to Paris. However WE will decide whether it is stupid to have olive oil in silly little disposable bottles on our tables, whether we get rid of terrorists, and whether we allow millions of immigrants in to enlarge our already terrible unemployment figures
Nuclear Cockroach 6.35pm: You mean just like the French, Irish and Dutch, who had to keep voting until the EU and national politicians got the answer they wanted.
Having read most of the comments:
Running away from an issue just makes it worse.
Facing up to an issue and taking the lead usually solves it.
Having read all of the comments it seems none of you quite understand the zeitgeist in the country. People I talk to, are supporting UKIP because it is being proved by the fact of the Libdems/Conservatives & Labour not really wanting a referendum is actually shouting from the rooftops that all established parties do not care what the electorate think or want. This is about democracy and trust NOT about Europe. The LibDem party is in a difficult position anyway because it stupidly elected a leader who cannot criticise the EU for fear of the fact he would lose his pension if he did.
I love most of the European countries!
Why is thee some non sequitur consensus that if I don’t want to be in the EU I am a swivel eyed racist? I love France, Italy, Spain, Greece, Germany and many others I have visited.
I speak French and would try to get by in Italian. Should business, family or social need I’d learn German or any other language.
Whatever makes anyone think I don’t want to be involved with the separate European countries. Of course I do.
I just don’t want tiers of unaccountable wasteful individuals/bodies telling me with whom and how I can trade. Neither do I want any tiers of government that enjoy pensions, taxes and other expeneses & benefits that are unavailable and denied to us mere mortals.
Many of these criticisms are applicable to our own government; witness how many laws are passed by bodies without going requiring going before parliament – and that’s just the ones that are not already passed bu Europe.
I would like to seize back control of law making from all quangos and civil servants; I would be happy to contribute to take into account the extra work required to strip them of their abilities, roll back the burden of their laws & regulations – and dissolve them.
With respect to Europe, or the United States Of Germany where France is so self absorbed in state dependence and dirigisme it has itself in hock up to its neck and is Germany’s bitch, is our vision theirs? I think not.
I believe in freedom of speech, fair laws, lack of discrimination, firm but fair law & order, great schooling where what is available to the public is what is available to our great public schools, sport, competition, fairness, and above all openness, honesty and accountability.
I don’t think my views are dissimilar to many in the UK.
That is why people are kicking back on Europe. Nowadays, 5 minutes of demorcacy is not enough.