As Angela Eagle prepares to launch her leadership challenge against Jeremy Corbyn, Tim Farron has taken a wee wander down Memory Lane and has found evidence from 2008 when she rubbished Vince Cable’s predictions of what we thought then was an economic storm.
Angela Eagle was the Treasury minister who laughed at warnings of a credit crunch. In April 2008. Not a great look. pic.twitter.com/DXwEhBnY4b
— Dan Kelly (@ObiDanKelnobi) July 9, 2016
Tim now says that she needs to take heed of the many voices who are wanting Labour to support continuing membership of the EU. If Labour are not prepared to do that, then, he says, there is no point in changing leader.
He has a number of questions for her:
The big issue for any Labour challenger is what will they do to reverse Jeremy Corbyn’s lack of leadership on our membership of the EU.
So these are the questions Angela Eagle needs to answer:
Firstly, will she join with the Liberal Democrats in making the case to remain in the EU?
Secondly, will she fight to maintain free movement?
Thirdly, what is her plan for restoring confidence to the markets and supporting businesses through this period of economic uncertainty?
These are just some of the vital questions facing our country, with jobs, public services and the rights of the British people to live, work and study in mainland Europe all under threat in this terrible period of uncertainty.
Liberal Democrats have provided the only opposition to the chaos brought on by the Conservative failure to lead. Unless Labour leadership challengers are prepared to give real opposition to the Little Britain economic vandalism of the Tories then it is hard to see how they would be an improvement on Jeremy Corbyn.
* Caron Lindsay is Editor of Liberal Democrat Voice and blogs at Caron's Musings. You can find her on Bluesky at caronmlindsay.bsky.social
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41 Comments
Despite what he says in public Farron must be praying that Labour keep Corbyn. Then surely the Labour pro EU, middle of the road voters will look to the Lib Dems – if only because there is little alternative. However, beware the Trident vote. If you are seen to be side by side with Corbyn and Livingstone it won’t help your cause. That will be a very difficult vote for Farron.
Angela Eagle faffing around before changing Corbyn is hardly inspired leadership. It might explain why she came 4th in the contest for Deputy Leader of the Labour Party.
The Trident vote should be easy, vote against a waste of money on something the Government has no money to pay for.
Egos like Angela care more about their own position in Labour than stopping the Tories. Her reputation for economic nous is skin-deep. She’s a warmonger. How is that right for Labour? Jeremy Corbyn is true Labour, but he might not be winning an election any time soon. There’s too many Tories out there. Owen Smith might just pull it off, though, depending on how the next few months go.
I think Eagle as Labour leader is at least as good as Corbyn for us. To misquote Dennis Healey, debating with Eagle is like being savaged by a dead tortoise. She has that same whiney quality as Ed Miliband used to such poor effect. My toenail clippings have more dynamism. Now Jarvis or Umunna or Cooper could do us a lot of damage.
I suspect that this is more about the divorce settlement. Throw Corbyn out and ban Momentum as successor to Militant, and the left will need to break away and likely disappear like Respect. The PLP keep the structures and property and membership list. Corbyn stays and the PLP has to set up and fund new structures and build a new membership to break away but you can see Momentum taking over local parties and ejecting sitting anti-Corbynistas so they may be no choice but to move fast. Incredible damage to Labour may be done by a court battle for Corbyn to stand which would tempt the Tories to an early opportunistic election that our foresight will hopefully prevent.
The main Eagle has going for her is that she is not Jeremy Corbyn. We need a decent opposition now to scrutinise the imbecilic Tory party.
“Jeremy Corbyn is true Labour”
There are as many definitions of true Labour as there are members. From left to right they all think they represent the real deal. By true Labour do you mean that of the founder Hardie who had liberal leanings and there were even electoral pacts between early Labour and the Liberals. Or “Uncle Arthur” Henderson, War Cabinet member, Nobel Peace Prize winner, who won 5 by-elections and was unseated from all of them, or first Labour PM MacDonald who split his party. Or Attlee, who established the modern welfare state with the NHS, and who embarked on mass nationalisation, but who also commissioned the independent nuclear deterrent for the UK. Or Wilson, Callaghan, Foot, Kinnock, Smith, Blair or Brown. Each uniquely different. Definitely not Miliband, whose bacon buttie eating facial contortions have outlived any policy anyone can remember.
Corbyn, the London-centric socialist intellectual from a comfortable middle class background, brought up in a manor house, educated at prep school and selective grammar school, and who has never had a job outside the political bubble. The main supermarket where he grew up is a Waitrose. He has never personally experienced deprivation or discrimination. For the last 33 years he has been drawing a comfortable MPs salary and he owns and lives in a house apparently worth £650,000. Authentic man of the people he is not. One of the most wealthy pensioners in the land with no practical experience of the challenges faced by the vast majority of citizens more like. True Labour? There is no such thing; it is whatever is required of the centre left of British politics at any point in history. Corbyn’s far left agenda does not represent any Labour position since its foundation with the possible exception of Michael Foot’s short and damaging tenure.
Stevan, my point is he’s ‘true Labour’ compared to the shower we see in the PLP, who have been lukewarm in opposing austerity and social security cuts, as well as opposing the rush to war. You’re right about the many different traditions in Labour history, but since Blair all we’ve had until now is Tory-lite. All the progressive parties could do with being more progressive.
Stevan Rose’
I’m not a labour voter or a Corbyn fan, but really! Your post reads like a parody of something Richard Littlejohn would write.
Tim Farron “The big issue for any Labour challenger is what will they do to reverse Jeremy Corbyn’s lack of leadership on our membership of the EU.”
Oh dear I’m afraid Tim Farron is sacrificing strategy for the sake of a short-term opportunity. Whilst he’s entitled to make jibes I’d ask LibDems just two questions; Is the basis for his jibe fair? Does the anti-Corbyn jibe ‘fit with his strategy for the LibDems’?
A narrative was certainly created around Corbyn being pro Brexit. Tim Farron said as much last September despite Corbyn clearly stating on Northwest news a few days earlier that he supported continued membership of the EU. The anti-Corbyn EU narrative has been perpetuated by the Blair/Brown brigade who wanted Corbyn out from Day 1 regardless of the membership vote.
But the accusations re Corbyn on this point are not true. Even Eagle acknowledged Corbyn campaigned tirelessly in support of Remain speaking at events throughout the UK. Corbyn’s crime appears to stem from giving honest answers that there were things he did not like about the EU though making it clear he supported Remain. Would we rather our politicians lie? Though I supported Remain I, too, had some reservations about the EU. Are we not allowed to have doubts on aspects of policy?
Tim Farron’s coverage during the EU campaign was negligible – should we draw an inference that this indicated a lack of support by Tim Farron for the EU from this? Of course not, he nor Corbyn has control of the media.
My second question relates to what the LibDems stand for? I just don’t know. I genuinely am not trying to be provocative. Some of the things Tim Farron says I think are good and overlap with some of the things I hear Corbyn, the Greens, SNP and Plaid say. But then this from Tim where he clearly dismisses Corbyn. Would a Blair/Brownite PLP under Eagle be more acceptable? These same MP’s who act as if an infallible elite and want total control over policy. These same people who were pro Iraq war, anti-Iraq inquiry, sat on their hands re welfare cuts and austerity votes, are pro Trident and are extremely authoritarian supporting secret courts, extended detentions and snooping whereas Corbyn and the vast majority of members who identify with him do no support such polices.
Who would the LibDems prefer to work with a Corbyn or Eagle led PLP vs a Tory Government?
@Dave Orbison
“A narrative was certainly created around Corbyn being pro Brexit.”
“Narrative” is a strange word to use about something that is true. Before he became Labour Party leader Jeremy Corbyn had a documented history of being opposed to the EU. His personal position is clearly pro-Brexit. It’s just that as party leader he had to give the impression of supporting party policy (obviously a novel idea for him!).
I presume that his assumed delight in the move towards Article 50 is one of the key reasons why 81% of the PLP felt they needed someone who genuinely supports Labour Party policy on the EU, rather than someone who pays lip service to doing so.
Steven Rose – I take it that you don’t like Corbyn. Is it this based on any particular policy position that he actually advocates or is it that you just dislike the man, dislike him intensely?
Having read your ‘job’ on Corbyn my sense of fairness, and to be honest my support for Corbyn, has prompted me to address just a few of the many inaccuracies in your thumbnail sketch of him.
You claim that Corbyn is from a privileged background with no experience of the real world. In fact, he went to a Polytechnic after leaving school but did not finish his degree. He spent two years doing voluntary work in Jamaica. He went on to work as a full time official for the National Union of Public Employees helping members deal with all sorts of real issues. But no doubt the latter is a hanging offence in your book. None of this strikes me of being particularly privileged.
Are you really suggesting that only the ‘under-privileged’ should care about their lot? That the ‘privileged’ however that is defined, are incapable of genuinely caring for those less fortunate? What a sad world that would be, and I for one do not believe it. Or is it just that you think that Corbyn has been living a lie for all his years of campaigning and dealing with constituents concerns, that he isn’t really interested it’s all a con?
As to the value of his house, I have no idea how much that is worth. But since he lives in London I would not dispute your figures, but so what? Are you suggesting that only homeless people can only be socialists?
In terms of his salary at least you are you are right. He is paid as an MP and that is it. Apart from a small amount for one or two talks that is his sole income. Why is this a problem? Incidentally, on another Corbyn fact as opposed to myth, he has been returned by increased majorities by his constituents at each election over some 33 years. Are you suggesting he should do this free?
You seem to imply that as a MP he is living the high life. Yet Corbyn has consistently claimed the lowest expenses as an MP. This seems a plus in his favour, perhaps you disagree?
As for your observations re Waitrose, all I can say is perhaps you should not judge a man based on his nearest supermarket?
If we could move away from ‘playing the man’, is there any chance of saying which specific policies, he has advocated that are so unacceptable for the LibDems?
While Mr Corbyn’s position certainly seems to have altered for purely political reasons, one may also note that Mrs Leadsom’s position went from Remain to Leave in a short space of time, while Mrs May’s position on Brexit appears to be in the nature of a State Secret.
@ Simon Shaw “narrative”. But it wasn’t true, was it. You never heard the words “I support Brexit from Corbyn during the campaign”. Please refer me to any actual interview or statement where he said it, he did not. It really is as ‘black and white’ as that.
He campaigned up and down the country. A fact. Please provide evidence to the contrary. As I said even Eagle accepted he worked with the energy of a 25 yr old tirelessly campaigning for Remain. A fact.
He had reservations – many do – in fact many with a great deal more, sadly, as it turned out. If asked a straight question Simon, do you want you politicians to lie or tell the truth?
In 1975, that would be some 40 years ago he once held an anti EU position. Isn’t the EU today a lot different to the EEC as was? Although a teenager at the time I was certainly anti EEC then myslef. I am now pro EU on balance, but it is a balance.
I have no issue with honest debate about differences of opinion. But when your argument is based on persistent misrepresentation of what was factually said, I have to say, it is that’s just not right.
Dave Orbison – I’d just like to say that as a LibDem member I support everything you have said above, and if I were a Labour MP then in terms of policies I’d be one of the 40 supporting him. Having said that, I don’t think he’s capable of providing the necessary opposition to whatever government we’ve got now, but I don’t think that as a party we need to be pointing that out: let the Tories, the press and his own MPs do that.
Listening to Andrew Neil interview Angela Eagle this morning I was amazed at the way she refused to even hint at how her policies might differ from those of Jeremy Corbyn. She repeatedly twisted the replies round to Corbyn’s lack of leadership, but did not offer any evidence that she would be any better. All of the whispering, plotting and sneaking around behind the scenes gives the strong impression that no Labour MPs have any leadership potential.
I can’t shake the suspicion that Eagle is just a stalking horse who will either shame Corbyn into stepping down (unlikely), force him to step down if it is ruled that he needs 51 MP supporters to compete (possibly), or beat Corbyn in a leadership election (very unlikely), and then step aside for somebody else.
Timing matters. The Tories are making decisions. Labour need to do as well. If they do not they might find that a Tory leader might be tempted to call a general election, which Gordon Brown was tempted to do, but did not. Please see The Third Man. 2010.
ISBN HB 978-0-00-739528-6, ISBN PB 978-00-739529-3. Tories said that Brown bottled it.
UKIP’s deputy leader has resigned.
Peter Watson: Yes, but she has the nominations she needs from MPs and MEPs, JC presumably does not. They are waiting for a decision from Labour’s NEC about whether a serving Labour leader is automatically nominated. Basically this is still a matter of confidence or not.
@ Simon Shaw Are you sure you’re not making this up, Simon ?
Jeremy Corbyn was asked directly this morning on the BBC’s Andrew Marr Show which way he voted. “Remain, I am surprised you even asked the question,” Mr Corbyn snapped. (BBC News website today.
Are you saying Mr Corbyn is telling porky pies and you have access to some secret information denied to us lesser mortals ? Or is it you want to believe it so it must be true ?
@David Raw
“Simon Shaw: Are you sure you’re not making this up, Simon ?
Jeremy Corbyn was asked directly this morning on the BBC’s Andrew Marr Show which way he voted. “Remain, I am surprised you even asked the question,” Mr Corbyn snapped.”
Well I seem to recall that he was heard to have told exactly the opposite to someone else, so someone appears to be telling porky pies.
But could I suggest you actually read what I said rather than the misrepresentation of it supplied by Dave Orbison. If you do you’ll see I’ve made no comment about which way he might have voted three weeks ago. It’s only ever been about him abusing his position to undermine the Remain campaign.
@ Simon Shaw “Well I seem to recall that he was heard to have told exactly the opposite to someone else, so someone appears to be telling porky pies”.
It was some anonymous bloke in a restaurant, Councillor Shaw.
Yes, compelling evidence indeed…. but then, you wouldn’t want to spoil a nice story would you ?
Eagle said to Neil that Corbyn was a nice man but not a leader I’ve no idea whether Eagle is nice or otherwise but I’m clear that she isn’t a leader either. More a person engaged to test the waters while somebody else is groomed for stardom.
@Ray Cobbett:
” she isn’t a leader either. More a person engaged to test the waters while somebody else is groomed for stardom.”
Stephen Kinnock, perhaps?
@Simon Shaw I’m sorry I thought you were alleging that Corbyn was pro Brexit.
It is a fact that he was not. So I have no idea what you mean when you claim I misrepresented you. Are you now saying you accept he wasn’t for Brexit?
As for your response ‘I recall someone somewhere.,., ‘. How can you possibly and confidently ascribe comments to anyone on that basis? Totally unreasonable and hardly the evidence I invited you to provide. Whereas there is ample evidence of Corbyn giving interviews stating he was for Remain. To argue the contrary is just disingenuous
@Dave Orbison
“Simon Shaw: “narrative”. But it wasn’t true, was it. You never heard the words “I support Brexit from Corbyn during the campaign”. Please refer me to any actual interview or statement where he said it, he did not. It really is as ‘black and white’ as that.”
I’m sorry, I thought my posting couldn’t have been clearer. I’ll restate it:
– Before 2015, as whip-ignoring backbencher, Corbyn anti-EU.
– 2015-2016, as party leader, Corbyn gives impression of supporting party policy, while doing his best to undermine the Remain Campaign.
That being what I said, why on earth would think that there was any “I support Brexit” from Corbyn during the campaign?
“He campaigned up and down the country. A fact. Please provide evidence to the contrary. As I said even Eagle accepted he worked with the energy of a 25 yr old tirelessly campaigning for Remain.”
Well she was defending her leader, wasn’t she. At the time she was providing whole-hearted support to her party leader (an alien concept to Corbyn, of course), but we all know what was really happening. And it’s not just Corbyn himself, it’s the parts of the Labour Party apparatus that he now controls that did so much to undermine the Remain campaign.
But if you think Corbyn was so committed to the campaign, perhaps you could explain why someone so happy to share platforms with his “friends” in organisations like Hamas refused to share a platform on this issue with the elected British Prime Minister?
@Simon Shaw rather than go off topic why not address the issue you raised.
You stated that Corbyn was pro Brexit. Your claim. Where is your proof? If I said Simon Shaw supported fox hunting (assuming you don’t) you may be forgiven for feeling a tad aggrieved. You might try pointing to evidence to the contrary and I would expect you to say to that person where’s your proof. It not a difficult issue. If you accuse someone of something we should see the evidence. In this case you are simply falling in line with the narrative i.e. Making it up as you go along.
So where did Farron actually make these comments? What’s the source? Why are Lib Dems obsessing about Eagle v Corbyn and who said what?
Surely Lib Dems have their own problems to address: only eight MPs and 8% of the GE vote in 2015 (UKIP got 13%); this gave only one Westminster MP in Scotland and just one more in Wales. After the Scottish Parliament elections this year Lib Dems are the fifth party in Scotland behind the Scottish Greens and after the Welsh Assembly elections there’s just one Lib Dem AM putting them fifth behind UKIP. Also on the losing side in the referendum. Physician heal thyself.
“I take it that you don’t like Corbyn. Is it this based on any particular policy position that he actually advocates or is it that you just dislike the man, dislike him intensely?”
There are very few people I dislike intensely. Paul Nuttall makes me want to put a brick through the TV when he appears if that counts. Leadsom is getting there. In respect of Corbyn, I believe he is a poor leader intent on destroying the Labour Party at a time when we desperately need an effective Opposition. I am furious that his half-hearted approach to Remain is probably key to the loss and it would not surprise me in the least if he had voted Leave. And his politics are negative and anti-aspirational. I think there is a place for him and his views in Parliament but his are the politics of the backbenches not of leadership.
My reference to his background was to make the point that his credentials are intellectual and theoretical not born of poverty or disadvantage. And as a result he doesn’t have the passion and practicality to match his theoretical ideas. I have a lot of respect for Diane Abbott who comes from the same wing but is more passionate, more practical, more aspirational. I guess it comes down to credibility and authenticity. Most people’s politics refect their background and life experience, which doesn’t prevent Tories coming from single parent council estate families or Labour politicians coming from privileged backgrounds but you can connect the life and the politics. With Corbyn you can’t. I don’t dislike him, I just don’t find him credible.
“Why are Lib Dems obsessing about Eagle v Corbyn”
Because a strong and credible Opposition is essential at this time. Although I don’t think Ms Eagle will be the least interested in Tim’s advice. And there’s a strong possibility of major realignment of British politics which will greatly affect us.
I like Labour a lot more than the Conservatives, but I also like Jeremy Corbyn. That’s a problem as I know he can’t win an election when Scotland’s gone yellow and England’s full of Tories. Something’s got to give, so if Eagle’s inevitable failure to take the leadership forces Jeremy to resign, Owen Smith takes over and Andrea Leadsom drives the Tory party to destruction, it will be worthwhile as the Liberal voice in Parliament should be enhanced and Britain will have a Labour government.
Tim needs to pause and re think this commitment to the EU as being anything other than concern to get a stabilised economic situation and a good deal for our whole country .
We cannot have made up knee jerk policy .
And whats with the Labour Party I was once as a youth a member of ?Absolute lunacy , each leader since Blair worse in ability and personality than the one before !It takes a lot for me to say much if anything about Corbyn that would be in his defence .But Angela Eagle is one of the most mediocre , winey , dull people in uk politics !
Lorenzo, I think you are seriously under-rating Angela Eagle. Very sharp, very bright, very political, http://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2016/may/25/george-osborne-and-angela-eagle-clash-at-pmqs-video
She won’t be a stalking horse and will have thought very deeply about this step. You might like to look at the history of her getting the Wallasley nomination.
@ Lorenzo
“Tim needs to pause and re think this commitment to the EU as being anything other than concern to get a stabilised economic situation and a good deal for our whole country” .
Are you suggesting he accepts Brexit ? That sounds like a made up knee jerk policy.
PS Looks like Leadsom is going to withdraw. Game, set and match to May.
PS. Agree with Bill le Breton about Angela Eagle. Very sharp, witty and feisty at the despatch box.
Looks like May will be in Downing Street by the weekend.
@Dave Orbison
“He campaigned up and down the country. A fact.”
10 events in 6 weeks and he never visited the north-east. That’s hardly giving it your best shot. Corbyn strikes me as a deeply ideological person and one who is perfectly willing to lie in order to advance his real agenda. He may claim he voted Remain, but his behaviour says otherwise.
One of Jeremy Corbyn’s visits was to Cornwall where support for Labour is minimal. Maybe he thought it would be a nice place to go.
@ NickT and @ nvelope2003 re Corbyn’s EU efforts
Perhaps it would be better to look at objective evidence of Corbyn’s contribution. How about Loughborough University Centre for Research in Communications and Culture?
https://blog.lboro.ac.uk/crcc/eu-referendum/media-coverage-eu-referendum-report-4/
Jeremy Corbyn – 3rd in Top Ten for media coverage between 10-15 June and 7th (6 May- 15 June). Overshadowed by Cameron and Johnson In/Out factions of the Tory Party. As for the rest of the PLP, Alan Johnson who was leading the In – not a sight. As for Tim Farron – invisible?
You can sneer if you wish and draw whatever biased inferences as you want re Corbyn but I think you are being a tad selective. Apparently you can even find fault in Corbyn reaching out to Cornwall, hardly a Labour heartland, but perhaps before crowing too much you might want to sit down in a quiet room and reflect on another piece of data.
For all Tim Farron’s hardwork on the EU campaign, which I do not for a minute doubt, the Loughborough study (i.e facts rather than opinion) showed Labour consistently second in the ‘prominence league table’ between 10-20%. The LibDems were grouped with ‘Others’ and were collectively between 1%-3%.
Now as much as I wanted to Remain in the EU I just think it’s silly to blame Corbyn for the result equally it would be to blame any other party leader who was effectively anonymous in the campaign.
Bill and David
I mean only in reach of the leadership to judge Angela Eagle thus.I accept she has good qualities I am yet to warm to , but I mean only with regard to it being worth the rupture to have her as leader, the goal .
For me the human voice is a very important means of connection between people.I can listen to Theresa May for some time. I could listen to Ruth Davidson for longer. Even when Nicola Sturgeon drives me potty , which is usually , I can listen to her voice .But Angela Eagle ?
David Raw
Are you saying we should ignore the result of the EU vote ? I feel Tim should be both principled and pragmatic . Let s wait and push for the best we can get and if it is lousy we can favour re entry . Not knee jerk , rather , a long haul journey .
People who thought Corbyn unfitted to be PM and didn’t like the Tory assault on the poor would be put off us if we criticised Trident? Of course, silly me, the way to spectacular electoral success is not getting away from the centre on anything and absolutely not being distinctive because it’s controversial.
I’m not sure Tim will be praying for Corbyn to stay. I’m sure he wants the Liberal Democrats to gain ground fast, but I strongly suspect he doesn’t want right-wing Tory government till 2025. Whether Angela Eagle would be any better than Corbyn at reviving Labour, though, I’m not sure.
The Alex cartoon (nowadays in the Daily Telegraph) stated as fact that a lot of people in the City voted for Jeremy Corbyn. George Osborne said in the Commons that he thought Corbyn would be a good leader of the Labour Party. At that stage JC was seeking initial nominations from Labour MPs. Alex is a fictional city slicker. His fictional son is a genuine Labour supporter berating his father for contributing to the difficulties the Labour Party currently has.
@ Dave Orbison,
I appreciated Jeremy Corbyn’s cooler support for the EU.
I voted remain, as eventually did my husband, ( to support the younger generation in our family), but without the enthusiasm for the EU that seems to typify Liberal Democrat support for it. We wanted deep reform, not for it to be the same in ten years time.
The Remain campaign was dire and I really think it is unfair to hang responsibility for that on Jeremy Corbyn.