…as this infographic from Richard Morris reminds us. It definitely deserves a wider audience.
— Richard Morris (@richardmorrisuk) April 8, 2015
Subscribe
-
Follow @libdemvoice.org on Bluesky
-
Like us on Facebook
-
Subscribe to our feed
-
Sign-up for our daily email digest
Most Read
- We need a tax rise to fund additional defence spending
- Separation of Powers and Civil Liberties in the UK are now at breaking point
- The social media ban is illiberal, unworkable, and our stance is the wrong one
- ALDC's By Election Report 11.06.26
- We are being held hostage by the Tory voters who have lent us their vote
Search
Op-eds
-
Don’t slam the brakes on Britain’s EV revolution (Mark Hofman)
-
“How will you pay for it?” – The reply I’d love to hear Ed Davey give (Jamie Dalzell)
-
The Lib Dems created the triple lock – we should be the ones to set the terms for its end (Adam Shaw)
-
We are being held hostage by the Tory voters who have lent us their vote (Theo Rodwell)
-
Dear United Kingdom: Anti-white racism and the attack of diversity, equity and inclusivity (DEI) (Michael Bukola)
-
Reform inadvertently lose their majority
-
The Major Oak is dead and Phil Harding has discovered another ancient site near Stonehenge
-
Reform own goals
-
Following the course of the River Leen through Nottingham
-
Joe Jackson: It's Different for Girls
-
Trumps' White House thuggery appals the world including most Americans
-
The Joy of Six 1534
-
The toxic legacy of Brexit
Recent Comments
Margot Wilson
Yes, indeed, Michael's message is clear: we must remember Jo Cox. I was in a room full of teachers of speakers of other languages the day she was killed and our...
George Thomas
I think the basic idea is that tech companies are now richer and more powerful than many governments while having none of the responsibilities and demonstrating...
Chloe
What I'm saying Mick - is I don't trust the institutions in charge. After the recent horrific events , the NHS , social services , and all the other 'profession...
cim
What part of the "triple lock" would you end, though? Allowing pensions to reduce below either CPI or average wage increases inevitably leads to pensioners stea...
expats
Ed's first paragraph was a 'moan' about things are; his second was to promise to change it. What was missing was the "HOW" bit..* *Promising to call on 'exp...
84 Comments
I do not trust Liberal Democrats with the NHS.
Shirley Williams played her part in the awful NHS Reforms.
Without the Liberal Democrats the Tories would never been able to get away with the top down reorganization of the NHS.
In fact the whole NHS reforms are just as much Liberal Democrats responsibility as the Conservatives.
And lets remind ourselves what some of the most senior doctors are saying.
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/apr/07/senior-doctors-assess-governments-record-on-nhs-letter-in-full
“We invite voters to consider carefully how the NHS has fared over the last five years, and to use their vote to ensure that the NHS in England is reinstated.”
As ever, it is worth reading Alex Marsh http://www.alexsarchives.org/2015/04/on-the-nhs-budget-black-hole/ particularly this :
” … leaving aside whether the 2012 NHS reorganisation was in itself a good or a bad thing, it is pretty obvious that repeated reorganisation is a bad thing. Staff are permanently coping with change and trying to get to grips with new systems and structures. As a consequence no structure has time to bed in before another round of change arrives. The political debate about the NHS has, for far too long, focuse on structures. The impacts on processes tend to be derived as a byproduct of reorganisation. We have had wave after wave of reorganisation. The political rationale for that is not hard to find. It is always easier to demonstrate you are “doing something” about a problem by reorganising, whether or not reorganising is the most effective solution to the problem. It is much harder to focus on improving the quality of process and sell that to the electorate as decisive action.”
It is argued by those who have transformed our party since the days of Charles Kennedy that he and we, in those days, were too ‘producer friendly’. Well perhaps the producers really knew a lot more about how to run the NHS, than those who have had responsibility for health policy in Westminster in the last five years.
Didn’t Nick Clegg sign up for Landsley’s initial ‘top-down’ policy? A policy that the Tories promised not to introduce…… I believe that this single issue (even more than the ‘tuition fee’ debacle) is resonsible for the decimation of the party over the last 5 years….
The Lib Dems need to start addressing security concerns. We don’t need to move to the right, but I am confident that making security part of the campaign, along with freedom and equality would work.
The Lib Dems are going to stumble over the line with 10% of the vote if we just keep saying “we’ll spend more than the Conservatives and borrow less than Labour”.
The Lib Dems decision to support NHS “reforms” was the very moment you lost my support after 20+ years.
Remember “no top-down reorganisations of the NHS” that both LibDems and Tories promised us? Yet another broken promise.
As a mental health patient and as someone whose wife is an NHS nurse, I’ve seen the horrible consequences your reforms have had on the NHS. Reforms that both Tory and LibDem said were not on the cards. My wife comes home every night stressed out of her mind, often breaking into tears. She’s heading for a breakdown and very likely will need mental health services herself soon (or a prolonged absence from work). The strain the staff are under is immense and she has seen first hand how private companies are now cherry picking the “profitable” bits and leaving people such as her to pick up the pieces. Staff morale is at an all-time low. They genuinely feel bullied by this government. They feel this government doesn’t listen to them and is on an ideological crusade to destroy the public ethos of the NHS.
As for myself, as I keep saying here, I’ve watched mental health services slowly deteriorate as well. In fact, (and it pains me to give credit to Labour for anything), mental health services were pretty good where I live up until about 2011. I used to be seen by my psychiatrist every month. Now I’m lucky if I’m seen every 3 months. My last appointment was in Jaunuary and I’m still waiting for my next one. The crisis team used to be very good and responsive. But now? Now the crisis team is itself in crisis.
I never trusted the Tories with the NHS. Now the LibDems have been added to the list of parties I will never trust, or believe, on the NHS. The NHS bill was not in the coalition agreement. You did not have to vote for it. But you did.
the big problem with the NHS that NO mainstream politician wants to put before the public is simple:
– people are living longer
– ailments that would have killed them in prior years are now treatable / manageable
– demand for treatment is rising inexorably yet willingness to fund it isn’t
This circle is almost impossible to square – because in the abstract people recognise that not all treatments can be funded all of the time, but on a personal level quite understandably want the best treatment.
So if health spending per head is going to rise faster than taxes or the economy, and we aren’t continually going to borrow more (with increased interest payments and risk of collapse), what is going to be cut in its place?
And to counter the personal experiences of the posters above, my personal experience of the health service is that there has been no appreciable difference in the last 20 years between governments of either stripe. Variability is greater between institutions within the same time frame that within the same institution over a longer time frame.
And those posters’ comments above also fly in the face of NHS public satisfaction surveys, which show it is at an all time high.
@Tabman: “And those posters’ comments above also fly in the face of NHS public satisfaction surveys, which show it is at an all time high.”
Glad that you’re so easily able to brush off the fact that I and many other mental health patients are not getting the help I need. Many of you LibDems really do come across as cold, emotionless technocrats these days. Always ready and willing to cite figures and statistics but ignoring human feelings and experiences.
What do you have to say about staff morale, then?
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/nhs-hospitals-flatlining-staff-morale-falls-to-new-low-after-coalition-bashing-9075793.html
http://www.kingsfund.org.uk/press/press-releases/growing-concern-about-staff-morale-nhs-performance-slips
Stephen Campbell. I have no idea what your personal experience or perception is or may be. I have no way of verifying the claims you make, which may be true, or may be deliberately misleading in order to score a political point. But what I do know is that one individual’s experience or perception is not translatable to a big picture. There will always be individual bad experiences in even the best run system. My personal experience is that the health system works well; yours isn’t. Where does that get us?
Tabman
unless you suffer from a long term medical condition that requires Frequent use of services then you are unlikely to notice any changes.
There is an abundance of evidence out there which supports peoples claims that cuts to services is having a dramatic impact on quality and quantity of care.
My Own Mental Health services in Norfolk http://www.cqc.org.uk/content/norfolk-and-suffolk-nhs-foundation-trust-rated-inadequate-overall-chief-inspector-hospitals was rated as Inadequate
And trust me as a mental health patient, I know first hand just how inadequate it is, I have posted here on LDV many times the problems I have had accessing Mental health services.
I also suffer from Ulcerated colitis and pancreatitis , Before this coalition came to power, I used to have quarterly Hospital appointments with the specialist and bi-annual colonoscopies. Although my conditions have not improved, since 2012 especially, services have been decimated.
I now only have annual check ups and am only referred earlier if I go into a severe flare up. That is purely down to cuts to budgets and that came out of the mouth the specialist.
As I say, unless you suffered a long term condition that required long term treatment and or Interventions for mental health access care, You will have no idea what it is truly like.
You should listen to the experts who have first hand experience and reporting how desperate things are. I would trust the Doctors to tell the truth over any politician any day
Pretty picture.
Meanwhile:
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/apr/07/more-than-100-top-doctors-attack-government-record-on-nhs
Where’s the piece addressing this?
matt – “As I say, unless you suffered a long term condition that required long term treatment and or Interventions for mental health access care, You will have no idea what it is truly like.”
Are you really trying to tell me that because, like the majority of users of the health system, I do not have a chronic condition, means that I “have no idea what it is truly like”? My experience is just as valid as anyone else’s, if we’re in the business of talking about personal experiences. I could equally argue that as someone who is making constant use of he health service, you have no idea what its really like for the majority who don’t.
I notice you post a link to show that the health trust within which you live has been rated as inadequate. The link does not produce a causal link between the rating it has been given and Coalition health policy. I’m sure that there are other health trusts which have been rated good or outstanding – presumably there is a difference in management between the two given they both operate within the same national framework which accounts for the difference in performance.
“And those posters’ comments above also fly in the face of NHS public satisfaction surveys, which show it is at an all time high”
This is just false. It is true that there has been an increase in overall satisfaction recently but the highest recorded level of satisfaction was in 2010. The recent increase seems to have occurred because people without direct experience of the NHS are now more likely to take a positive view than they were during the period of the Lansley reforms. And the recent upward trend masks the fact that satisfaction with some individual services is falling. For instance, satisfaction with GP services it at its lowest recorded level.
Bolano: “But Gerada, who organised the letter, denied that the Labour party was responsible. “It has not been orchestrated by Labour, it has been put together by me and a few other medical leaders,” she told the Telegraph. “I’m not doing this from a party political point of view. My views on the health service and the Health and Social Care Act go back and are well known. This letter was drafted by me and some others.
“I am a Labour party member …””
AndrewR – “It is true that there has been an increase in overall satisfaction recently… The recent increase seems to have occurred because people without direct experience of the NHS are now more likely to take a positive view than they were during the period of the Lansley reforms.”
Damn those pesky respondents – clearly suffering from false consciousness.
“Are you really trying to tell me that because, like the majority of users of the health system, I do not have a chronic condition, means that I “have no idea what it is truly like”? ”
Actually that is exactly what I am saying.
How would you have personal knowledge what the services are now like if you are not reliant on them?
You hardly going to notice any changes to the NHS if you are largely healthy and only visit your GP on very rare occasions are you, So your experiences are not going to be anything like someone who suffers from a long term disabling disorder.
Tabman
Are you suggesting that a Senior Doctors evidence and opinion should not be regarded because he is a “Labour Supporter”?
Are Labour supporting Doctors less trustworthy that Liberal Democrat Doctors?
Ive seen some tribal people in the past, but wow
matt – to take your two points.
“How would you have personal knowledge what the services are now like if you are not reliant on them?”
My experience of the health service is equally as valid as anyone else’s. Over the last 25 years or so as an adult and parent I’ve had to make use of it for chronic and acute care for me and my family. I would argue that you are the exception, not me.
“Are you suggesting that a Senior Doctors evidence and opinion should not be regarded because he is a “Labour Supporter”?”
No, I am saying that I would view anyone who has a self-declared political axe to ground with a greater degree of scepticism that someone who hasn’t. Were signatories to that letter have self-declared as Conservative members I would regard it as more credible.
I hold the same degree of scepticism when Conservative members complain about attacks on business or Lib Dem members complain about attacks on education; you have to try and sift through the inbuilt producer interest.
-Tabman
The increase in satisfaction in 2014 amongst people without direct experience of the NHS was 11% but only 4% amongst those who do have direct experience. Satisfaction is still lower overall than 2010. I assume you now accept that your first claim was false.
Tabman
I cant actually believe you are questioning the credibility of senior Doctors in the NHS because they might be a Labour Party Supporter.
In my opinion these professionals in their fields would put the welfare of patients ahead of partisan politics.
Clearly you do not hold these people in very high regard in the first place.
How have things come to this when there are people questioning the credibility of senior Doctors in the NHS to tell the truth about the state of the NHS.
I do so hope there are not to many people like yourself in the party, because if that is a wide spread opinion within the party, it would certainly show how far from Grace the Liberal Democrats are falling
I don’t dispute the demoraphic challenges facing the NHS model, and in some areas things have gotten better. I also don’t have an issue with the private sector. An example -making it easier for the NHS to pay private providers to give NHS patients a PET scan has led to better treatments (and shorter journeys) for cancer patients – who would disagree with that? I also don’t thing flinging money at the NHS is a sustainable solution either.
However in the community (rather than hospital based care) the transition to CCG has been a fiasco. We didn’t listen to staff and patients. As a result, primary care services like GP, like social care, like mental health, were put in a dreadful state in many places , often because of staffing problems (as much if not more than financial reasons) that the PCT abandonment directly caused. This demoralised staff. It certainly demoralised me. Whether or not PCTs were a good thing is a different question, and things are now thankfully improving, at least in my area, but the manner of their going was at best ill conceived, and as a party of government we need to own some of that mess. The fact that many PCT structures have quietly been put back, may of course, be purely coincidental if you believe the press offices. Norman Lamb at least tried to stir things up, and we should have seen a lot more of that at the beginning of the coaliton. I’m not sure most of the electorate will listen now, I only wish it were otherwise.
Tabman…Having read your posts ,if they reflect the views of the post 2010 LibDem party then I’m glad that I no longer support this party!
Expats – be that as it may.
The problem with too many people who post to this board is that they believe if only the Evil Tories were got rid of, everything would be perfect.
Firstly – I’ve lived through too many years of Labour government to believe that things would be rosy.
Secondly – the Conservatives have consistenly managed to poll a third of the electorate for generations (sometimes more); they’re not going away and sometimes we have to deal with them.
Thirdly – the problems facing this country and the world are far more complex and challenging than the simplistic “evil Tories/bankers/capitalists” rhetoric would have it
Lastly – I’m not going to stop asking awkward questions just because I get ganged up against in groupthink by the likes of you.
matt – “How have things come to this when there are people questioning the credibility of senior Doctors in the NHS to tell the truth about the state of the NHS.”
Replace “Senior Doctors” with “Chief Executives” and “NHS” with “FTSE100 Companies” – and tell me you would swallow exactly everything a Chief Exec would say should be done about company governance without questioning whether they might have a vested interest to protect.
Tabman
Why would I do that.
Dr sign a Hippocratic oath to always put the welfare of patients above all else.
I do not thinkk CEO’s of FTSE 100 companies sign an off to put the needs of the customer above all else. The 2 are not comparable at all.
Have you actually looked at the ever expanding list of medical professionals who have signed? They are all respected professionals in their fields. A far number of them are now retired, but obviously still care enough to now put pen to paper (what vested interests would they have?)
Would your opinion changed if each signature declared their parties affiliation?
matt
You seem to be saying that just because a Doctor is saying something, it must be true. I thought that level of deference went out in the 1960s.
When I look at an issue, I don’t automatically believe one group because they are the “authority” figures. I take a balanced range of opinion and I look at the self-interests of the group in question making the point.
Let me make a more public sector analogy. My wife is an academic, and in the academic sphere (which has a lot of parallels to medicine), I would not necessarily believe academics above everyone else as to what students need and how best to run the University system. They are but one input, important yes, but only one stakeholder within all those interested in the system. And what might be in the long term best interests for the majority of stakeholders in some circumstances may not be in the best interests of the producer group.
For example – the BMA for many years controlled the number of doctors that were allowed to be produced by the UK university system. The reason for that was given as “quality control”, but in practical terms it was about bidding up the price of doctors in the market place, such that we had to fill in the gaps by hiring from overseas.
Sorry, just where does it say HOW the LibDems are going to “save” both the economy and the NHS?
This is typical of the superficial top-down ad-man’s approach to politics which I wrote about here. If we really want people to be actively involved in politics and giving support to the hard decisions which have to be made, we should STOP this sloganeering approach.
We DON’T have policies that are enough to properly save the NHS. As others have said, to do it properly needs more taxation. Yet we are putting as our main policy in this election cutting taxation. This sort of sloganeering approach to politics, skipping over the real hard discussions that are needed, ends up in “squaring the circle” policies in government, short-term ways of providing better services which have long term extra costs. The heavy use of PFI was one example, New Labour did that, but it was not opposed by anyone much except those dismissed as socialist dinosaurs for daring to speak out against it. The Tories thought marketeering inside the NHS would save money, hence the recent NHS “reforms” which even many Tories admit were a mistake – extra cost as any reorganisation leads to, and no real benefits, as it just doesn’t really work. Mostly contracting out leads to poorer services and demoralisation.
Tabman
But what I do know is that one individual’s experience or perception is not translatable to a big picture. There will always be individual bad experiences in even the best run system.
What Stephen Campbell has said may be one person’s experience. But I have heard similar from so many other people working in public service, and experienced some of it myself. The political theoreticians obsessed with free market idealism just aren’t listening, they think they know so much more than those working in the field that they carry on pushing their theories regardless of what is happening on the ground. Sorry, having read a bit of Hayek and a lot of what is pushed out by those right at the top of big business who have a vested interest in this sort of thing, and all those others they pay to push it out, does not mean you are more of an expert at how it works in reality than those who have to manage the reality.
@Tabman: “Replace “Senior Doctors” with “Chief Executives” and “NHS” with “FTSE100 Companies”
Well, as Matt pointed out above, Doctors are in the business of saving peoples’ lives versus only making money, as is the case with FTSE100 Companies, who make sure their shareholders come first, rather than their customers. I don’t remember the last time all executives of large companies took an oath to “do no harm”. And the experience of my wife and the doctors I see on (what should be but is not) a regular basis confirms what the top doctors are saying. But, as I’m no longer voting for your party based on the detrimental effects your policies have had on my life, I guess my opinion can be easily discounted by yourself. So much for “we’re a non-tribal party” and believing in plural politics! As expats said above, it is people like you that are making sure your poll numbers are so low. The arrogance, unwillingness to listen to voters and technocratic tendencies just confirm how this party has become another establishment one, right at home with Labour and the Tories. Well done.
@Matthew Huntbach: “We DON’T have policies that are enough to properly save the NHS. As others have said, to do it properly needs more taxation. ”
I don’t always agree with everything you say, but I’ve always found you to be a sane, decent man who is trying (sadly, in vain) to keep the soul of this party alive. The soul it once had until the Clegg Claque took over. And this time, I absolutely agree with what you’ve written.
Personally, I don’t make much money. But I’d be more than happy to pay increased taxes if it meant protecting the NHS. Sadly our current child-like political discourse and the belief in all three main parties that the free market will solve everything (and when it doesn’t, push for even more market “solutions”!) means that this will never happen and this nation will continue its slow decline into US-style politics.
@Stephen Campbell
Agree with everything you said, Wish I could put it as eloquently as you do.
I really should not post in the afternoon after taking meds, I know what I want to say, but it does not end up translating into coherent sentences lol. Hopefully people get the gist though
Matthew Huntbach
Whilst we don’t always agree, I do feel that it will be people like you (After the Election) Who will hopefully help rebuild the party whilst in opposition and pull the party back to it’s more traditional roots and one that people like me could end up voting for again. I admire your stamina, passion and dedication to the party, especially considering the obvious turmoil you have felt towards certain policy directions and leadership issues.
Stephen Campbell.
How many election campaigns have you managed? How many times have you stood for election? How many pieces of campaign literature have you written, produced, delivered? Paid for? How many doors have you knocked on? How many voters have you spoken to? How much of your time, money and energy have you spent on seeing liberal democrats elected in the last thirty years?
It is your right to decide who you vote for, but until you can demonstrate to me what you’ve actually done to make life better for people other than come on a message board and denigrate people are who do get off their backsides and put their time, energy and money onto changing things, then I have the right not to consider your opinion with very much.
Tabman
Wow, so not only do you judge someone’s opinion and legitimacy on the basis of which party they support
You now also judge them on the amount of time and money they are to donate to the party.
Are you sure this is still the Liberal Democrat Party?
@Tabman: “How many election campaigns have you managed? How many times have you stood for election? How many pieces of campaign literature have you written, produced, delivered? Paid for? How many doors have you knocked on? How many voters have you spoken to? How much of your time, money and energy have you spent on seeing liberal democrats elected in the last thirty years?”
I’m truly sorry that the fact that I’ve not spent as much time as some people campaigning means my opinion is not valid in your eyes. Maybe we should change the electoral system so that only those active in political campaigns have the right to vote or speak out on issues which concern them?
(by the way, I used to help deliver Focus leaflets back in the late 90s until 2010, but whatever, I obviously don’t pass your litmus test.)
“It is your right to decide who you vote for, but until you can demonstrate to me what you’ve actually done to make life better for people other than come on a message board and denigrate people are who do get off their backsides and put their time, energy and money onto changing things, then I have the right not to consider your opinion with very much.”
Not a very Liberal (or kind, for that matter) attitude, is it?
I, personally, consider your opinion to be just as valid as mine. I may not agree with it, but that does not make it invalid.
And all this because I had the cheek to point out services I rely on are falling apart around me.
Thank you for the kind words, Matt. As a fellow mental health patient, people like us deserve to be listened to, as we experience the front line of NHS services and not the public relations guff which comes out of the Westminster Bubble.
Some Liberal Democrats want the prestige and power that comes from being in government, but don’t want to hear from their electorate when their actions in government negatively impact on those they once promised to protect and stand up for. Power without the responsibility.
“Are you sure this is still the Liberal Democrat Party?”
From the way things are going, some people in the Lib Dems are giving the Tories competition for the mantle of “The Nasty Party.”
Stephen Campbell – These were your exact words: “As expats said above, it is people like you that are making sure your poll numbers are so low. ”
To quote more of your words back at you: “Not a very Liberal (or kind, for that matter) attitude, is it? “
@Tabman: “It is your right to decide who you vote for, but until you can demonstrate to me what you’ve actually done to make life better for people other than come on a message board ”
I regularly volunteer and raise money for my local branch of Mind, the mental health charity.
Once every fortnight I also volunteer at a local food bank (which, incidentally, didn’t exist before this government came to power).
I’ve probably done far more good doing those two activities than I ever did in the years I delivered Focus newsletters. I care deeply about my community and people such as myself who have suffered with mental health issues.
But obviously my opinion is worthless to you, so there’s no point in continuing to debate with someone who starts from the position that someone’s opinion is automatically invalid.
You should try kindness and humility. You should try being Liberal. Those qualities, I’ve found, tend to get someone further in life than nastiness.
matt – “Wow, so not only do you judge someone’s opinion and legitimacy on the basis of which party they support”
No, I judge them on what they say cross referenced with what other people say to ensure that I see through their potential bias
“You now also judge them on the amount of time and money they are to donate to the party. Are you sure this is still the Liberal Democrat Party?”
I have to endure regular ad hominem attacks on this message board because I am not prepared to go along with the “doom and gloom” orthodoxy, and am prepared to offer an alternative and challenging point of view. Very simply, I have walked the walk over the years, not just talked the talk, and I don’t see why I should put up with such personal vitriol for an expressing an alternative opinion.
@Tabman: “To quote more of your words back at you: “Not a very Liberal (or kind, for that matter) attitude, is it? “”
It’s perfectly Liberal of one to believe that people who automatically discount others’ opinions are partly responsible for why your party is doing so poorly. From what I can gather, this party now seems totally split between people who want to do good for their communities, tackle social justice and those who are passionless, ideologically-led technocrats who seem to be the arbiter of whose opinion is and is not valid.
If your party is ever going to recover, it’ll be because of people such as Matthew Huntbach and John Tilley, not due to those who don’t see others (even from different parties) as their equal.
So, to finish: I think your opinion is 100% valid, even if I don’t agree. I see you as an equal to me, not some lesser species. Debate is good, but if people in your party don’t want the electorate coming on here explaining how your party’s actions have affected them, then this site should do the illiberal thing and close comments.
Stephen Cambell – ” a local food bank (which, incidentally, didn’t exist before this government came to power).”
That is simply wrong:
“The first Trussell Trust Foodbank was established in Salisbury in 2000. In 2004 the decision was taken to develop a way of sharing the model more widely and the Foodbank was developed into a social franchise. The first franchise was established in Gloucester and in the last seven years the number of Foodbanks has grown to 148 across the UK.2
2 Figure correct as of November 2011.”
http://www.trusselltrust.org/resources/documents/Our%20work/Lambie-%282011%29-The-Trussell-Trust-Foodbank-Network—Exploring-the-Growth-of-Foodbanks-Across-the-UK.pdf
Furthermore, from the same source; “Charitable food assistance in the UK is not new, and there is a history of ad hoc provision through food banks, soup kitchens and shelters. What appears to be new in the case of the Trussell Trust Foodbank is the professionalisation and formalisation of such provision through a nation-wide initiative. In this way, the Network moves the UK closer to the experiences of North American countries where such initiatives have become common place and are now well established within their welfare landscapes.”
It is not wrong at all.
My local food bank started in 2011 and is not affiliated with the Trussel Trust.
The key word in my sentence was “local”.
@Tabman
“No, I judge them on what they say cross referenced with what other people say to ensure that I see through their potential bias”
Except that’s not entirely accurate is it.
In response to Bolano posting a link http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/apr/07/more-than-100-top-doctors-attack-government-record-on-nhs and asking “Where’s the piece addressing this?”
Your reply was simply ““I am a Labour party member …”””
You totally dismissed the opinions of every person who signed the letter, because one of the persons organizing the letter admitted to being a Labour supporter. You have no idea what the other signatures political affiliations are (not that, that should matter) your pure tribal politics and hatred towards Labour sees you shutting down and ignoring anyone who does not fit into your criteria of a worthy voice
Stephen Campbell – you claim that “I see you as an equal to me” – and yet you use language such as “people like you”. This sort of language is that used for the categorisation of people into types with certain shared characteristics, to be demonised. You judge me, yet you know nothing about me, my views, opinions and experiences, thoughts, actions.
I have done nothing other than challenge the point of view that you hold. I have made no judgements about you as a person other than to point out your judgement of me.
Tabman 8th Apr ’15 – 3:13pm ……….The problem with too many people who post to this board is that they believe if only the Evil Tories were got rid of, everything would be perfect……..
Er, no! However I used to believe that the Lib(Dem) party were the party of ‘conscience’…I was foolish enough to believe (not that we’d ever form a government) that we could be a real influence…Sadly, I no longer believe that the leadership and many members feel like me…..
Over the last 5 years there have been areas where I see the ‘thumbprint’ of the LibDem party; however, the overall impression, not just to me but to the country, has been one of not just acceptance of the Tory line but enthusiastic support…Nick Clegg’s immediate signing up to the NHS reorganisation being a case in point……
Perhaps, apart from the run up to this election, you might guide me to an instance where Clegg, Laws, Alexander have used the word ‘reluctantly’ (or synonyms) when discussing Tory led policies?
matt – “Your reply was simply ““I am a Labour party member …””””
No it wasn’t. I quoted the section where the person who organised the letter stated that it wasn’t party political. But I also noted that she stated that she was a Labour Party member, and therefore reserve the right to be sceptical about what she says.
Tabman
Come on we all know what you were inferring. You only have to read your last couple of posts to know exactly what you meant.
The person who organised the letter admitted to being a Labour member because the Tories response to the letter was to try and claim that this had been organised by the Labour party itself, which simply was not true.
You were dismissing the letter and its contents because it was written by someone who is a Labour Supporter.
Your comments at Tabman 8th Apr ’15 – 2:11pm confirms your attitude
“Were signatories to that letter have self-declared as Conservative members I would regard it as more credible.”
expats – “Over the last 5 years there have been areas where I see the ‘thumbprint’ of the LibDem party; however, the overall impression, not just to me but to the country, has been one of not just acceptance of the Tory line but enthusiastic support”
You see that because you want to see that, because you believe that all Tories are evil.
I see ministers getting on with their ministerial jobs making changes for the better where they have been able, given the parliamentary arithmetic and the coalition agreement that was negotiated. I don’t have much time for tribal nonsense,
@Tabman:
You didn’t just challenge my point of view. You said, in reply to me towards the beginning of this thread: ” I have no idea what your personal experience or perception is or may be. I have no way of verifying the claims you make, which may be true, or may be deliberately misleading in order to score a political point.”
You do realise that people with MH problems have a hard enough time as it is being believed and listened to, do you not?
Yet you start from the basis that someone may be saying things just to score a point, rather than that they were posting from the heart and the despair that comes with not getting the help I need, which is partly due to the actions of your party in government. You start from the assumption that someone with mental health issues is making things up. I post about mental health issues on this site regularly and have done for some time. It does not make me happy to feel let down by the party I supported for 20 years. It hurts even more to see my opinion automatically discounted, as if I’m some piece of trash (though, as a mental health patient, I’m used to being treated like trash by our society and politicians).
I do see you as an equal, but one I disagree with. One who, yes, I see as a member of a group which is leading this party down a blind alley, a group I disagree with. Should, say, UKIP members not be seen as a group who I also feel is harming the fabric of British society? Is putting people into groups always totally wrong? I am not demonising you. I personally happen to feel that the right of this party is destroying it. You may or may not be a member of the right of this party, but you come across as one. If my words hurt you or were wrong in any way, I do apologise. But I make no apologies for pointing out what has happened to the NHS services I use and need. I will not apologise for feeling monumentally let down by this party, and it hurts even more to see people in this party saying “mental health services are great under us” when they are patently not. I despise Labour and would never vote for them due to their authoritarianism, but in my experience and the experience of many others with mental health problems, services were much, much better then.
Do you have experience of mental health issues and the utterly frightening things it can do to someone? I do. Yet you want to discount my opinion and the opinion of others who have had similar experiences from the start. I am willing to listen to and debate with people from all over the political spectrum and I don’t start with the assumption that they have a political axe to grind or may be making things up.
And, actually, thinking about it, I DO have a political axe to grind. I want mental health services to be better and I will keep shouting about it as often as I can. And when political parties of any colour claim that MH services are all wonderful and fully funded, I will call them out on this. I am sick and tired of people with MH problems being sidelined, written off as “nuts” or thought of as inferior. I am not saying you have done that, but it has happened more than enough to me to last a lifetime.
Sometimes personal experience and speaking from the heart is all one has.
So, enough for now. This whole thread is making me panicky and causing the intrusive thoughts to return.
Tabman 8th Apr ’15 – 7:01pm…………………You see that because you want to see that, because you believe that all Tories are evil….
Well that explains my view. What about all the others? You know, the ones who voted out swathes of our councillors, 9 out of 10 MEPs, who ensure that the polls are consistently in single figures, etc..;
…………………………I see ministers getting on with their ministerial jobs making changes for the better where they have been able, given the parliamentary arithmetic and the coalition agreement that was negotiated. I don’t have much time for tribal nonsense……………..
It used to be called, “Being the only one in step”,
@Stephen Campbell 8th Apr ’15 – 7:06pm
A post that is eloquent, convincing, and moving.
Expats. People will vote how they will vote. Perhaps in time they will come to regret their decisions (again) when they experience the alternatives.
Stephen Campbell “Do you have experience of mental health issues ”
As it happens I do. But its not something I’m prepared to discuss on an open board. And I also recognise that my personal circumstances are not a sufficient basis for national policy making.
Stephen Campbell – “Should, say, UKIP members not be seen as a group who I also feel is harming the fabric of British society? Is putting people into groups always totally wrong?”
Yes, putting labels on people by placing them in groups is always wrong.
I do not support UKIP’s aims. I would not join their party. But I would never demonise their members and supporters as a croup for the mere fact of their membership or support. I would judge each person on their merits, with their faults and mitigating foibles. And not all of the points raised by UKIP are automatically wrong, either. Some of the points they raise are legitimate points of view and should be dealt with on a point by point and merit basis, not merely dismissed with a blanket assertion of racism. That sort of behaviour is exactly analogous to what is being criticised.
@Stephen Campbell
Very well written and I identified with every word you wrote.
I know exactly how you feel when you said
“You do realise that people with MH problems have a hard enough time as it is being believed and listened to, do you not?
Yet you start from the basis that someone may be saying things just to score a point, rather than that they were posting from the heart and the despair that comes with not getting the help I need”
I felt the same way too, I used to post a lot on LDV about my struggles with mental health and the troubles I had accessing NHS services.
I had the very same insecurities about posting on this forum and people not believing what you say or thinking you are just trying to score political points. I was so insecure that I ended up sending Caron from LDV team my Psychiatric report (Note this was my choice not a request by LDV) but I felt that i needed to validate myself and my opinions.
That is a sad reflection on society as a whole though not about Liberal Democrats.
Through the actions of this Government, people with disabilities and mental health especially are made to feel even more voiceless and constantly left feeling that they need to prove and justify their illness.
The tragedy is, the more we seek support and validation, the more we end up feeling abandoned and disregarded.
Stephen just know though that your posts are a comfort to some people like me. I can relate to what you write about, I wish I could be so articulate when expressing myself.
You may feel like your fighting a losing battle on here most of the time, I know I do, but just know that it is a great source of comfort to some people who can relate to your posts.
Take care of yourself, and I look forward to reading more from you in the future
Stephen Campbell – “You didn’t just challenge my point of view. You said, in reply to me towards the beginning of this thread: ” I have no idea what your personal experience or perception is or may be. I have no way of verifying the claims you make, which may be true, or may be deliberately misleading in order to score a political point.””
Funnily enough, not everyone on the internet is who they claim to be.
The Labour Party has been seeking the destruction of the Liberal Party and Liberal Democrats for over 100 years. We are in the middle of a closely fought election period where Labour is desperately seeking to shore up the votes its haemoraging to the SNP by taking votes from other sources. Sowing discord amongst Lib Dem activists by accusing them of being cruel and heartless, in order to demoralise them, is exactly the sort of behaviour one might expect from the party of Alastair Campbell and Derek Draper.
In any case, coming onto a party message board and accusing its activists of arrogance and a lack of compassion is likely to elicit a robust response, don’t you think?
Stephen Campbell – “You didn’t just challenge my point of view. You said, in reply to me towards the beginning of this thread: ” I have no idea what your personal experience or perception is or may be. I have no way of verifying the claims you make, which may be true, or may be deliberately misleading in order to score a political point.””
Didn’t your mother ever warn you that not everyone on the internet is who they claim to be?
If you come on a party website and call people arro-gant, cru-el and out of touch, its unsurprising if those being so accused may wonder what the agenda behind such accusations might be. It is also unsurprising if they respond in robust fashion.
The Labour Party has been seeking to destroy us for 100 years. Sowing discord amongst the Lib Dem activist base suits their purposes well as the seek desperately to make up for the votes they are haemoraging to the SNP. This is, after all, the party of Alastair Campbell, Derek Draper and Gordon Brown.
@Tabman
“Didn’t your mother ever warn you that not everyone on the internet is who they claim to be?”
I am shocked at your attitude and blatant mocking of Stephen.
Liberal Democrats are supposed to be championing mental health, in fact it is their main policy campaign in this election.
Lib Dem Voice went to great measures to encourage people like me, Stephen and many others who suffer from mental health conditions,to engage and share our experiences when it was time to talk.
And now, here looking back at this thread, all I see is your attacking and trying to discredit someones opinion even trying to bring into question the truthfulness of their experiences. It really is very upsetting indeed.
I know you do not speak for a majority of the party and we can take some comfort in that at least.
matt:
“I am shocked at your attitude and blatant mocking of Stephen.”
Stephen has chosen to come on an open bulletin board and make assertions based on what he claims is his personal experience. As I said, I have no way of knowing the veracity of his claims. He is free to share them; I am free to challenge them. Where does that constitute mockery?
“Liberal Democrats are supposed to be championing mental health, in fact it is their main policy campaign in this election.”
This is a policy I whole-heartedly agree with.
“Lib Dem Voice went to great measures to encourage people like me, Stephen and many others who suffer from mental health conditions, to engage and share our experiences when it was time to talk.”
As you are indeed free to do, and have done so.
“And now, here looking back at this thread, all I see is your attacking and trying to discredit someone’s opinion even trying to bring into question the truthfulness of their experiences. ”
I repeat – just because someone writes something on a bulletin board does not make it true. I could tell you that I’ve spent three years in solitary confinement – you have no idea whether that’s true or not.
I also said “I’ve no way of knowing whether what you’ve said is true or not.” The more fundamental points are these:
– someone’s personal perception and other’s perceptions of the same events can be at considerable variance; both perceptions are equally “true” for the people concerned
– personal perceptions are not always the best means of making policy
“It really is upsetting indeed”
You appear to be saying that I should afford some sort of special treatment – surely that is the last thing that I should be doing. I debate robustly with anyone who comes on this board – I treat everyone the same, I offer no favour and expect none in returen.
I know you do not speak for a majority of the party and we can take some comfort in that at least.
No, Tabman doesn’t speak for a majority of the party. If I were inclined to be cynical I might think his line
“Didn’t your mother ever warn you that not everyone on the internet is who they claim to be?” ominous- given he is posting using a pseudonym and not using the facility LDV offers which allows party members to be clearly shown as such when posting. But, while I think he probably is a genuine party member, he has consistently shown himself to be well to the right of the party mainstream and likewise pro-Tory.
I have a history of mental illness. My personal experience of the NHS has been positive but I know of others with mental health problems who have had much less positive experience, and I welcome the party’s pledges on mental health. I think the “save the NHS” rhetoric, like the “save the economy” rhetoric, somewhat exaggerated. But that could be my natural optimism…
Philip Thomas – “But, while I think he probably is a genuine party member”
I have my own reasons for not openly stating my identity. However certain members of the LDV team know my real identity and party membership.
“he has consistently shown himself to be well to the right of the party mainstream and likewise pro-Tory.”
I am an economic and social Liberal. I am not pro-Tory (I ran a campaign ten years ago that overturned a massive Tory majority); however, the fact that I choose to be as anti-Labour as I am anti-Conservative is viewed as “pro-Tory” is instructive.
The majority of posters are reflexively and unthinkingly anti-Conservative and pro-Labour, so any neutral stance must appear as pro-Conservative.
@Tabman
“Stephen has chosen to come on an open bulletin board and make assertions based on what he claims is his personal experience. As I said, I have no way of knowing the veracity of his claims. He is free to share them; I am free to challenge them. ”
Well yes I guess you are free to challenge him. However, I think you need to consider the “potential” harm you are doing to the parties reputation, especially in regards to mental health. You are what i would consider one of the most frequent and easily recognizable posters on LDV who always speaks up ferociously for the party. The Party has been trying to engage people with mental health disorders and get them to talk about their experiences, yet here you are publicly stating that you have a right to challenge the veracity of their personal experiences. Do you think that sort of attitude is going to advance the parties aims and encourage vulnerable people to open up and talk about their experiences to Liberal democrats if they are going to be challenged like that?
“This is a policy I whole-heartedly agree with.”
Are you sure, look back to the beaning of this thread.
Tabman 8th Apr ’15 – 11:46am
“And to counter the personal experiences of the posters above”
and
“Tabman 8th Apr ’15 – 11:47am
And those posters’ comments above also fly in the face of NHS public satisfaction surveys, which show it is at an all time high.”
and
“Tabman 8th Apr ’15 – 12:15pm
Stephen Campbell. I have no idea what your personal experience or perception is or may be. I have no way of verifying the claims you make, which may be true, or may be deliberately misleading in order to score a political point.”
Your first 3 posts where all about confrontation and challenging Stephen Campbell’s post.
Stephen was the ONLY person who had mentioned his personal circumstances with the NHS.. All he did was share with us his first hand experiences as a sufferer of mental health and the deterioration he has seen in accessing mental health services. And you jumped on him and tried to bring into question the accuracy of his experiences.
That to me does not speak of someone who is supportive of the Liberal Democrats policy on mental health
“You appear to be saying that I should afford some sort of special treatment ”
Actually No I don’t. I think you should show respect and empathy for people with disabling disorders, Especially when the party has been pushing very hard to engage with people with mental health disorders. If the party is going to encourage sufferers to come here, engage with Liberal Democrats on the difficulties they face. Then you as a member of the party have a responsibility not to attack them and bring into question whether they are telling the truth or not about their illness.
@Tabman. If your party membership is known, why isn’t it displayed- the editorial team could easily arrange for you to have the orange banner?
matt – go back and read the opening posts. Yours says: “I do not trust the Liberal Democrats with the NHS”
Bill le Bretton’s says: “perhaps the producers really knew a lot more about how to run the NHS, than those who have had responsibility for health policy in Westminster in the last five years.”
Stephen’s says:
“I’ve seen the horrible consequences your reforms have had on the NHS.
My wife comes home every night stressed out of her mind, often breaking into tears. She’s heading for a breakdown and very likely will need mental health services herself soon (or a prolonged absence from work). The strain the staff are under is immense and she has seen first hand how private companies are now cherry picking the “profitable” bits and leaving people such as her to pick up the pieces. Staff morale is at an all-time low. They genuinely feel bullied by this government. They feel this government doesn’t listen to them and is on an ideological crusade to destroy the public ethos of the NHS.
Now the LibDems have been added to the list of parties I will never trust, or believe, on the NHS. ”
I use the NHS. I know people who work in the NHS. Neither my, nor their, experience squares with the highly emotive, provocative, ideological and insulting language that Stephen chose to deploy. Go ahead and read it again:
– horrible consequences
– stressed out of her mind
– heading for a breakdown
– bullied by this government
– ideological crusade
– destroy the NHS
If I have a responsibility to act with respect and empathy, then so does he.
Philip Thomas – does it need to be displayed? it doesn’t make any difference to what I say.
@Tabman, no of course it doesn’t, I take it on trust that when someone says they are a party member they are one, just as when someone chooses to share a distressing personal anecdote about their family member’s mental health it is based on the truth as they see it (and emotion is quite plausible in such a scenario).
Philip Thomas – contact Stephen Tall if you doubt my credentials.
@Tabman. I don’t doubt your credentials. I am trying to get you to see what you were doing to Stephen when you appeared to doubt his credentials.
@Tabman
I have read it and I repeat at the point you started jumping on Stephen. Stephen was the ONLY person who spoke of HIS PERSONAL EXPERIENCES with NHS and his mental health.
You said ” counter the personal experiences” so therefore you could have only been talking about Stephen as he was the only one who discussed personal experiences at that point
you then went on to say ” I have no idea what your personal experience or perception is or may be. I have no way of verifying the claims you make, which may be true,” which again was directed at Stephen.
Tabman you went on the offensive from the very beginning.
Yes Stephen was critical of the coalition and the Liberal Democrats, that does not mean you should pounce on someone and try to destroy and discredit them.
Yest Stephens language became more argumentative as the debate went on, but I would say was a defense mechanism as you were the one who started the confrontation and trying to bring into question whether he was being truthful.
“If I have a responsibility to act with respect and empathy, then so does he.”
Yes I agree, we should all treat each other with more respect and empathy.
But I will point out again, The Liberal Democrats are making mental health the center point of their campaign. So you should be more aware than usual with regards to treating vulnerable people with empathy.
Does the party want to engage with people who suffer from mental health and their experiences of the NHS?
Or do they just want to use people like us for one day a year during the “time to talk campaign” because its a politically hot topic then and might get them some media attention?
I am surprised that someone from editorial has not stepped in already considering the sensitivity of the subject and this being an issue that is at the center point of the Liberal Democrats Campaign.
And yes I did start this thread off criticizing the Liberal Democrat party and in particular Shirley Williams.
I make no apology for that. The top down reorganization should never gone ahead, it was in neither manifesto or coalition agreement. Lansaley reforms where a disaster, nobody understood them. Shirley Williams convinced the party that she had made the reforms better and palatable to the Liberal Democrats and she convinced the party to vote for the reforms.
She was wrong.
We have a right to be angry, especially when some of us suffer from a debilitating illness and are heavily reliant on NHS services.
The Topic of this Thread is that the Liberal Democrats can save the NHS.
Based on the parties performance and after what has happened over the last 5 years, we have a right to challenge that claim
matt – my initial response to the opening posts was this: “And to counter the personal experiences of the posters above, my personal experience of the health service is that there has been no appreciable difference in the last 20 years between governments of either stripe. ”
Fair, balanced, measured and non-emotive, I think you will agree.
His next comeback was as follows: “Many of you LibDems really do come across as cold, emotionless technocrats ”
So no – I did not go on the offensive from the beginning, he did. I responded with remarkable restraint to the nakedly provocative and insulting language that was directed at me.
matt – “The Topic of this Thread is that the Liberal Democrats can save the NHS.
Based on the parties performance and after what has happened over the last 5 years, we have a right to challenge that claim”
Yes – but what evidence do you use to back up that claim other than personal anecdote?
Tabman
You are not willing to even consider the possibility that your post could have been seen as dismissing Stephens experiences which he would have found hurtful,
You see nothing wrong in what you said because you enjoy your combat style of politics, it shows in almost all the posts that I have seen from you over the last 5 years.
“Yes – but what evidence do you use to back up that claim other than personal anecdote?”
I foremost form my opinion on my personal experiences. Then conversations that I have had with my specialists, and the despair they spoke of of cuts to departmental budgets and demand on limited resources.
I also then take into account what leading experts are saying, as in those who signed the letter.
Thats all the evidence I need.
matt – please go back and re-read what Stephen wrote. His posts were highly provocative and combative. What are you saying, that I should give him some sort of dispensation to be rude and insulting and say nothing in response? What I said initially was measured and non-combative; I merely said that my own experience was at odds with his. He then leapt in with more personal insults.
You are able to respond robustly to my points without resorting to personal insult.
“I have no way of verifying the claims you make, which may be true, or may be deliberately misleading in order to score a political point.”
This is where you crossed the line, IMHO-and I think in Matt’s. We’re not asking you to say nothing. You can dismiss Stephen’s claims as misguided or (unconsciously) exaggerated due to emotional involvement, or not in accordance with your own experience. But please don’t suggest he was being “deliberately misleading” unless you have firm evidence that he was.
@Tabman
“His posts were highly provocative and combative. ”
You take issue with
“– horrible consequences
– stressed out of her mind
– heading for a breakdown
– bullied by this government
– ideological crusade
– destroy the NHS”
I do not see what is wrong with that, those are HIS experiences, that is how he feels. Who are we to say that is wrong.
I see nothing in there which is insulting, provocative or combative towards you personally.
I see a man who faces challenges in his personal life and is struggling with the consequences of some of this governments decisions.
I certainly do not read anything in Stephens posts to warrant the tone of your initial response.
Stephen might have responded emotionally when he said “Many of you LibDems really do come across as cold, emotionless technocrats these days.”
I rather expect that was a consequence and reaction of him feeling dismissed by your post when he was obviously feeling vulnerable and sharing some of the difficulties he faces in life.
As this topic has progressed I have found you rather emotionless and unwilling to concede that you may have some part to blame for your initial combative stance.
I fear that we are no longer going to get anywhere with this discussion and maybe we should call it a night, or maybe its time for the editors to give an opinion
@Phillip Thomas
Yes and thank you, That is where I think the line was crossed and that is what I have taken issue with in this entire discussion.
Maybe it is time for me to shut up and just let it go. But I do think it was important for me to stand up and be counted and I thank you for having the good grace in doing the same.
Matt – he didn’t just make those statements but made it clear he blamed them on “your party … you voted for this.” What is that if not provocative? As a member of that party, I see that as a personal attack on me and my fellow party members.
Philip Thomas – it is not unknown for members of other parties to come on bulletin boards and make deliberately provocative statements in order to damage party morale. Are you trying to tell me that never happens? As a general rule in life I never take things automatically at face value and I’m not going to apologise for that.
@Tabman
At the end of what was a passionate and personal account of what Stephen faces on a daily basis with his mental health disorders and trust me I know he would have to tap deep into resources in order to be able to find the courage to talk on these boards about it. At the end of his comments he was a little angry and said
“I never trusted the Tories with the NHS. Now the LibDems have been added to the list of parties I will never trust, or believe, on the NHS. The NHS bill was not in the coalition agreement. You did not have to vote for it. But you did.”
I do not see what is so wrong in what he is saying, That is not a personal attack on you as an individual. He is saying that he will no longer trust the Liberal Democrats on the NHS after they voted for these reforms. What is wrong with that? That is EXACTLY how I feel about the Liberal Democrats and the NHS now. I used to trust them as much as Labour on the NHS, Now I never will. I wont forgive them for allowing the Tories to get through these reforms and this expensive top down reorganization of the NHS which was not in the coalition agreement.
Why would I trust anything the party says on the NHS after that betrayal?
That was not justification for you to go on the attack and try to discredit him and bring into question whether anything he was saying was the truth,
That in my opinion was very wrong of you. You can not go around caring about mental health sufferers one moment and asking them to engage with the party on their illness and experiences, then have members of the party challenge them and practically accuse them of fabricating their evidence and more importantly their lives.
You just cant treat people like that in my opinion and you were wrong to do so.
I have tried and tried to make you stop and take a moment to think about this, but you are obviously refusing to do so. It would be nice if editorial could make a comment or an opinion
matt – this is clearly a pointless discussion, as you won’t acknowledge that I was justified in defending both the party and myself from the unprovoked attack. Fair enough; that’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it. As to trusting Labour with the NHS, this is of course the Labour Party that was quite happy to introduce private provisioning and PFI when Blair was in power, and indeed set up the system in such a way that “privatisation” was built into it from day one; I speak of course of all the GP Surgeries which are privately owned partnerships.
I want to extend a warm handshake and a deeply heartfelt ‘thank you’ to Matt, Philip Thomas, Expats and Bolano for the kind words and views you’ve put forth. It is very touching to say the least.
@Tabman
We can agree to disagree, that’s the beauty of politics and it can be done so without making things personal and calling each other liars ,
With regards to Labour, I am not saying they are perfect, fair from it, they most certainly got a lot wrong, however, out of the 3 main parties, I trust Labour more with the NHS.
I take into account the state the NHS was in when the Tories left office and Labour first come into power.
The NHS had lacked any funding from the Tories in decades, No New Hospitals had been built.
Hospitals were falling apart at the seams and that is a fact.
People being treated in hospitals
People waiting 18 months for operations,
That was the reality of the NHS that Labour inherited.
Labour embarked on a massive upgrade of Hospitals and building New Hospitals because they had to, the country needed it. . Admittedly I do not like the PFI, Labour Ballsed up there and things were not thought through thoroughly and it has ended up with billions of pounds being spent in the wrong places
But overall the improvements to the NHS compared to the state it had been left in by the Tories in 1997 were massive.
Waiting times down, people waiting weeks for operations instead of months or even years.
I hope Labour have learnt from the PFI mistakes, I am sure they have, but taking everything into account I think when all is said and done, Labour can be trusted more with the NHS compared to Tories and Libdems IMO
@Stephen Campbell
My pleasure, hope your feeling better