And so, a relatively quiet day has come to an end at LDV Towers. Thank you to our contributors, readers and those of you that have added to the debates here.
Time for some final thoughts…
We now know that the identity of the thirty-six Conservative MPs alleged to have behaved inappropriately is now known by at least two media outlets, following the Channel 4 report earlier this evening. It does trouble me that there is a risk that, in having the information, but not making appropriate use of it (and that doesn’t necessarily mean publication as much as passing it on to the appropriate authorities), a sense of complicity exists.
However, if the buzz is to be believed, there are issues for other political parties to deal with too, and we can only speculate as to the scale of the problem.
The Government didn’t lose in the Lords this evening, as noted by Tony Greaves. It is surely only a matter of time though, as the intention to include references to the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights is only postponed. It is another, probably minor, obstacle in the Government’s path, but an obstacle nonetheless.
Meanwhile, in the United States, do the first indictments of the Mueller investigation portend an avalanche that might bring down Donald Trump?
And, with that, I pass you on to tomorrow’s Day Editor. Paul Walter is standing in for Joe Otten, and I’m sure that you’re in good hands…
Follow @libdemvoice.org on Bluesky
Like us on Facebook
Subscribe to our feed
Sign-up for our daily email digest
Reform own goals
Following the course of the River Leen through Nottingham
Trumps' White House thuggery appals the world including most Americans
Mick Taylor
Mary Reid
Alison C
Alex Macfie
10 Comments
…………………….(and that doesn’t necessarily mean publication as much as passing it on to the appropriate authorities)…………
I disagree, absolutely, with that statement…As with Harvey Weinstein, or naming perpetrators in rape cases, publicly identifying those who have been accused is likely to embolden others who were afraid their complaints would not be taken seriously
People shouldn’t be named until found guilty. This sort of thing has ruined many people’s lives as a mere accusation is taken as a guilty verdict.
Firstly, as liberals, we must stick to the principle of innocence until proven guilty. Secondly, the argument that identifying a potential offender may bring other accusers forward does not hold water. One such offence is as bad as many and should be treated as such by the courts and the public prosecutor.
Martin Land 31st Oct ’17 – 9:34am………….Firstly, as liberals, we must stick to the principle of innocence until proven guilty. Secondly, the argument that identifying a potential offender may bring other accusers forward does not hold water. One such offence is as bad as many and should be treated as such by the courts and the public prosecutor………
It is that attitude that has enabled Harvey Weinstein, and others, to act with impunity over many years…
“It is that attitude that has enabled Harvey Weinstein, and others, to act with impunity over many years…”
Quite – and it will continue to do so unless and until the culture of low-level sexual (and other) harassment is wiped out by schools adopting a zero tolerance attitude towards it. Without that some people will continue to move through life thinking it acceptable.
Innocent until proven guilty must be right and I am frankly astonished that anyone calling themselves a Liberal can think anything else. Otherwise all I have to do to bring down Vincent Cable is to make an allegation against him. Guilty by reason of accusation is a tool of untrammelled power down the ages.
To reinforce my point: http://liberalengland.blogspot.co.uk/2017/10/jason-zadrozny-cleared-of-all-chages.html
Tristan Ward 1st Nov ’17 – 8:28am…………..Innocent until proven guilty must be right and I am frankly astonished that anyone calling themselves a Liberal can think anything else. Otherwise all I have to do to bring down Vincent Cable is to make an allegation against him. Guilty by reason of accusation is a tool of untrammelled power down the ages……………..
No one is arguing that the premise of ‘Innocent until proven guilty ‘ should be removed…A strawman argument…
Martin Land’s, “Firstly, as liberals, we must stick to the principle of innocence until proven guilty. Secondly, the argument that identifying a potential offender may bring other accusers forward does not hold water”, is nonsense…The Harvey Weinstein case (among many others, closer to home) are an example of how identifying a potential offender ‘DOES hold water’…
The ‘un-named MP accused of xxxxx’ scenario is all too familiar and enables the guilty to escape disclosure…As for your ‘Vince Cable’ analogy.. if ANYONE is the subject to serious allegations they should be investigated in the open, not in secret..Secret investigations are not good for either party; the stigma that you are so concerned about are fuelled by ‘cover-up’ accusations and never go away…
Justice should not just be done but should be seen to be done…
The problem with sexual crimes is that they are often committed when two people are alone so very difficult to prove and the victims may think they are the only ones to be treated in this way. This is why more people coming forward is necessary. The other problem is that it’s hard to define harassment that isn’t physical because it sometimes depends on how the individual perceives that harassment. A wolf whistle may upset many young women but when I was young it was what you expected when walking past any building site, so rather more a mosquito bite than being stung by a wasp. Irritating but not painful.
What is needed is to change the culture of men’s conversations with other men so that no one thinks this kind of behaviour is in some way proof of masculinity, or an acceptable way to exert power over women.
The danger of going ahead purely on the basis of allegations is that it is wide open to fantasists. The lessons of Operation Midland and Operation Conifer must be learned. It is only too easy to traduce someone’s reputation and the dead cannot sue. When the allegations are as tenuous as in this new spreadsheet, we need to be sceptical:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/01/michael-fabricant-sexual-abuse-list-parliament-independent-body-investigate-claims
Unless someone is prepared to come forward and say this happened to me and give evidence that can be tested such as dates and locations, we should not give them credence.