The Guardian and other outlets are reporting that the new anti-terror bill to be published next week will include a power to force individuals subject to TPIMs to relocate within the UK, subject to a restricted definition of terrorism and a higher burden of proof.
Nick Clegg has conceded that the new counter-terror bill to be published next week will include a power to force terrorism suspects to relocate to another part of Britain, dropping previous opposition to the measure.
But the Liberal Democrats say they have secured further changes to the existing system of terrorism prevention and investigation measures, known as Tpims, that will make it harder rather than easier for the home secretary to use them to restrict a suspect’s liberty.
The new relocation power will allow the home secretary to require a suspect to live in a particular location in Britain away from their home area – effectively a system of internal exile – as long as there are restrictions on the distance they can be moved and the size of the area within which they are allowed to travel.
The decision by Clegg to drop opposition to relocation powers follows a review by David Anderson QC, the counter-terror laws watchdog, which has concluded that the alternative of establishing exclusion zones around the existing home of a terror suspect would not prevent them meeting harmful associates on their own patch. Anderson had initially proposed the exclusion zones himself.
The new counter-terror bill trailed by David Cameron last week at the G20 summit in Australia will now include a narrower definition of what constitutes “terrorism-related activity” to ensure that Tpims are not used against those whose involvement is peripheral.
The home secretary will also have to satisfy a court of a higher standard of proof than at present before being able to impose a Tpim on a terror suspect. This will be raised from the lower test of “reasonable suspicion” to “the balance of probabilities” civil standard of proof.
This is said to be a response to the prospect of hundreds of fighters returning from Iraq and Syria, and the evidence from David Anderson’s review that relocation adds effectiveness to the disruption of suspects’ patterns of association.
Whether the higher burden of proof will placate those who fear we are slipping back to the system of Control Orders remains to be seen.
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30 Comments
On what planet is this a liberal measure? Isn’t this the exact sort of thing that the Lib Dems should be stopping in coalition?
” prospect of hundreds of fighters”
This has more to do with a right wing hate campaign against members of certain ethnic minorities. We didn’t need all this to deal with the IRA. We certainly don’t need it to deal with an imaginary trumped up threat.
Let’s not forget the scary backdrop to this….
lives lost in the UK by attack from terrorist groups: 2006:zero, 2007: zero, 2008: zero, 2009: zero, 2010: zero, 2011: zero, 2012: zero, 2013: zero, 2014: zero
We shouldn’t budge one inch from this, in fact we should just ditch TPIMS completely.
@Glenn Andrews
I am sorry for this but I do have to point out, out of respect for Lee Rigby and have to acknowledge that he lost his life in the UK to an extremist in May 2013.
@ Glenn Andrews
Depends what you mean by a ‘terrorist group’
The 7/7 bombers weren’t Al Qaeda (or whatever), but they were terrorists, and were in a group
This is why LDV should have an edit function for peoples posts.
I am sure Glenn made an innocent mistake on their post and I really did not enjoy pointing out that mistake but felt I had to out of respect.
Maybe in this instance, LDV moderators would edit the post for them if Glenn agrees and I would gladly accept my following comments to be removed
For those who cam see the irony. Today is the 40th anniversary of the Birmingham Pub Bombing.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-29936619
For those who are too young to remember, the government’s reaction to this event was not exactly the greatest example of justice and democracy in action.
Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
The Birmingham Pub Bombing
Forty years ago 21 people were killed when bombs were detonated at the Mulberry Bush and the Tavern in the Town pubs in Birmingham city centre.
Six men were wrongly convicted for the bombings in 1975 and were finally released in 1991.
Since then, no-one has been found responsible. No-one has been prosecuted. No-one has been arrested.
And no-one has admitted it.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-30118137
Clegg has secured a compromise and some Lib Dems still aren’t happy. The truth is many Lib Dems don’t really care about security and it needs to change.
I thought internal exile was something from Stalinist Russia.
It seems to me that the right always need a political enemy within to define themselves against. As John Tilley reminds us, a few decades ago it was ‘Irish terrorists.’ Now it’s ‘British-Jihadi fighters.’
On a related matter, the other news story doing the rounds is how Ofsted is busy uncovering networks of radicals or potential radicalisation of young Muslims in muslim schools, who learn Islam (funnily enough) and face a rather narrow curriculum by their criteria. When I attended a Catholic school and learned about Catholicism in the days of Thatcher, I wonder why no inspectors came round and ticked off the nuns for teaching the principles of Catholicism – because it might make girls like me into IRA terrorists?
And it’s the hypocrisy of the right that is galling. Let’s overlook for the moment that it was Michael Gove who set up the EBacc – the new core, essential academic curriculum – which has downgraded music, art and drama to second class subjects. Pupils don’t need to do arts to get into a Russell group university according to Gove – it’s the ‘rigorous’ academic subjects which count. Can we blame some schools for taking him literally? Let’s overlook how it was his fast-track academisation programme which led to conservative governors getting a grip on academies – not faith schools – in Birmingham.
I see this Tpims policy as yet another ratcheting up of the rhetoric, the setting up of straw men and all-round hysteria all right-wing governments indulge in, in order to frighten people into re-electing them.
Internal exile used to exist here under Control Orders. When in January 2012 Control Orders were replaced with TPIMs (Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures) one of the concessions made to the arguments that they were oppressive (house arrest for up to 16 hours, restrictions on who you can see or communicate with, what area you can visit, whether you can or more usually cannot own any electronic devices such as computer, mobile phone, visits from security services whenever they like) was to remove the power of relocation. At the time I was told by a member of Nick Clegg’s staff that this was a great achievement. I was more credulous in those days.
A TPIM can be in force for up to 2 years (I don’t believe this is changing) whereas a Control Order could be in place indefinitely. A TPIM can be renewed if there is evidence of further terrorism-related activity.
Tightening the burden of proof is a step in the right direction to be sure, but please don’t overlook that the courts which decide whether or not a TPIM is made generally operates under a Closed Material Procedure. Yes, a secret court.
Whatever the burden of proof the person to be the subject of the TPIM is not going to know the vast majority of the evidence against them.
Should have been a red line not to be crossed and it is a betrayal of principles. I find myself in agreement with John and Helen. But it is not solely a right wing trick. Labour have been just as guilty of frightening people with threats of terrorism to impose draconian restrictions on liberty. And to excuse snooping on citizens who are supposed not to complain if they have nothing to hide. If terrorism doesn’t work you can always scare people with climate change to hike taxes and help energy firms increase their profits. Dictators control their populations with terror. Democrats control their populations with terror of terror. Good isn’t it.
It’s hardly a surprise that Clegg should agree to forcing people to live in certain parts of the country. This was, afterall, the gist of his immigration policy at the 2010 election, when he proposed prohibiting immigrants from living in the south east.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8468579.stm
@Helen Tedcastle
You’re hardly comparing like with like. The BBC reports that pupils at one of the schools “believed it was wrong to learn about other religions, were not taught art, music or drama and had a ‘narrow view’ of women in society.”
I don’t know what your Catholic school was like, but the ones my children have attended for the last 12 years are certainly nothing like that. If they had been I’d have (a) taken them out immediately and (b) expected Ofsted to have something to say about it.
Stuart
I was at school in the late seventies/eighties and we did not learn about other faiths. In fact, most schools then did not teach a multi-faith syllabus. Weirdly though, my knowledge of one religion in depth caused me to be curious about other religions and I went on to study them in depth at degree level.
Therefore, I am not of the view that learning one’s own religion in depth (as happens at private faith schools) is actually a barrier to learning about others. I think there is room for both – a broad overview and an in depth approach.
However, it seems that Ofsted have decided that one size fits all. If they came across attitudes like the ones reported, then I wonder why they don’t equally publicise attitudes found in mono-cultural schools where RE is not taught in any depth at all (as in some community schools who deliberately flout the law) and where there is a widespread lack of knowledge of any religion or culture. I have read reports of unpleasant comments being said among pupils directly related to lack of knowledge.
Does that get national headlines? No. That is my point really. Ofsted are on the bandwagon and attitudes found among pupils in some schools can be addressed without national headlines and ratcheting up of fear about muslims.
As for no music, drama and art, why did Gove not include them in his precious EBacc? By excluding and downplaying the arts, he gave a red light to schools which want to drill children in essay/computation-based subjects.
@Helen
“I was at school in the late seventies/eighties and we did not learn about other faiths.”
Same here. In fact I’m slightly embarrassed that I knew virtually nothing about Islam until I became curious in the wake of 9/11, by which time I was in my 30s. Not the best introduction to the subject. I think it’s a good thing that today’s children are given a broader understanding of different religions at an early age, and applaud Ofsted for highlighting when this does not happen.
“Therefore, I am not of the view that learning one’s own religion in depth (as happens at private faith schools) is actually a barrier to learning about others.”
I’m afraid you are totally glossing over the finding I quoted, which is that pupils “believed it was wrong to learn about other religions”. They’re not just specialising for a while before moving on to other things. They are concentrating solely on Islam because they are told that it is wrong to do anything else. Do you think that is a good reason to deny them the opportunity to learn about other religions?
Stuart
‘ Not the best introduction to the subject.’ So I’m sure from your studies you now realise that those 9/11 terrorists followed an ideology which is a perversion of Islam.
‘ applaud Ofsted for highlighting when this does not happen.’ I do not applaud Ofsted for conducting a witch-hunt against Muslims – dining out on media hysteria and the fears people have in some quarters of the UK about Islam.
The irony is that most of the schools now threatened with closure by Ofsted were rated good or outstanding just a couple of years ago. How ironic.
I don’t think children should be ‘denied’ learning about other religions. I used to teach multi-faith RE so I see the benefits. I am also not afraid to defend private schools which specialise in their own faith. I went to one and it did not stop me learning about other religions or having an open mind to the world. Quite the opposite in fact. I do not believe that one size fits all.
I do not know whether the attitudes of the pupils were learned from the school or at the breakfast table. It sounds like these attitudes could be dealt with quite easily – they have nothing to do with potential radicalisation though.
A young person is radicalised in fact because they have no understanding/education about Islam as it is actually practised and go online to find information. These young people are drifters and often looking for certainties and a focus for a variety of reasons. A number are white-British and are converted online.
I am disturbed when I read Ofsted reports of predominantly white pupils in mono-cultural schools holding distorted views of members of other religions, because they do not have well-resourced RE lessons with specialist teachers. Does this receive national publicity and an over-hysterical reaction in the press? No.
Mention of the anti-terrorism measures being the result of a right-wing hate campaign against minority ethnic groups is unfair.
It is perfectly possible to be sceptical about the ability of certain ‘minority’ groups to integrate into western societies and yet take the view – based on reason and evidence – that certain events have had an element of state sponsorship to them., with those minority groups being used as scapegoats.
In the United States, there was during the Clinton years a campaign, led mainly by Republicans, for greater involvement in the Middle East. In September 2000 the Project for a New American Century published a document entitled Rebuilding America’s defenses (signatories included Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney) . It advocated pre-emptive military action but conceded that this would not be met with public approval ‘absent some catalyzing event such as a New Pearl Harbor.
Just one year later, on September 11th 2001 there was just such a catalyzing event in New York and Washington – a coincidence maybe?
The fact is that terrorism sometimes helps states achieves goals. We have no trouble about accepting this when talking about regimes alien to our way of life and values – such as Hitler’s Germany with its Reichstag Fire and the subsequent passing of the Enabling Act. However, we in the West certainly have a problem recognizing that this kind of behaviour may also apply to apparently democratic regimes. the patriot Act was dished up to the US Congress pretty quickly considering its length!
We forget that ‘power tends to corrupt’ at our own peril.
On LDV, comments speak of left-wing liberals who have deserted for the Labour Party and protest voters who deserted for UKIP. But the TPIM issue is one of many which prevents people like myself, who are both liberals and democrats, from voting for the party. (Other issues of importance for me include the Transparency Bill, with its measures to discourage legitimate campaigners, and Vince Cable’s active involvement in promoting and permitting arms sales. (And yes,, I loathed the dishonesty on tuition fees, especially since I heard Nick Clegg speak about abolishing fees to an audience of students a week before the election.)
As an activist in the old Liberal Party and very occasional helper for the local Lib Dems, I thought I could at least trust the Liberal Democrats on issues of Civil Liberties. It has become clear I cannot. I can no longer trust them with my vote.
The options left aren’t cheering. The most promising is the Green Party, which several of my Liberal Democrat voting friends have joined in the last couple of months. I could give up voting, since there’s no chance that my views will be represented by my MP in parliament (but I would continue campaigning outside parliament.) Or I could vote Labour with the frail hope that at least they would be fairer and kinder in government than the coalition has been, even though I cannot trust them on civil liberties. But since I can’t trust the Liberal Democrats on civil liberties, I might as well vote Labour.
I really don’t know what the Liberal Democrats stand for any more, except remaining in coalition.
I say this with sympathy for the people who try to change the party from within. I know there are Lib Dem members and activists who really care about the principles the party leadership has abandoned. Sadly the party they support is no longer the party they joined.
I do not like control orders or Tpims.
In my opinion if someone is guilty of any terrorism charge or been in possession of any terrorism material, then I want to see them in the courts and in custody if the evidence supports it.
I am especially unhappy with MP Hazel Blears suggestions to relocate people on Tpims to my home town of Norwich.
I would say to Ms Blears, if you suspect someone of terrorism related activity in London and want then out of the capital, send them to your own constituency of Salford and Eccles before suggesting other parts of the country.
@Helen
“I am disturbed when I read Ofsted reports of predominantly white pupils in mono-cultural schools holding distorted views of members of other religions”
Which completely demolishes your own claim that Ofsted is engaged in a “witch-hunt” against Muslims. Ofsted highlights such practises wherever it finds them and whoever the perpetrators are. It’s not in Ofsted’s power to determine which of its numerous reports get picked up by the media.
“I don’t think children should be ‘denied’ learning about other religions. I used to teach multi-faith RE so I see the benefits. I am also not afraid to defend private schools which specialise in their own faith.”
That sounds contradictory. If you don’t think children should be denied the opportunity to learn about other faiths, how can you defend schools which teach about only one religion?
Incidentally, going back to TPIMs, I’m perplexed by those who claim that Britain never used such tactics to tackle the IRA. Things like internment and mainland exclusion orders were used for years.
Stuart
You are right, internment and exclusion orders were part of the fight against Irish terrorism – they were also a huge recruiting tool for the Irish terrorist organisations.
kathz 22nd Nov ’14 – 8:54am
You are not alone when you say — “I really don’t know what the Liberal Democrats stand for any more, except remaining in coalition…”
If Clegg cannot even be trusted on basic civil liberties issues like Internal Exile and House Arrest he is clearly no more Liberal than the apartheid era ministers of South Africa.
Stuart
‘ Which completely demolishes your own claim that Ofsted is engaged in a “witch-hunt” against Muslims. Ofsted highlights such practises wherever it finds them and whoever the perpetrators are.’
How so?I use the word witch-hunt not because other schools don’t report pupil attitudes but because these particular schools are splashed all over the national press. I wonder how that happened…
It’s not in Ofsted’s power to determine which of its numerous reports get picked up by the media.
Oh dear. I don’t think you know much about Ofsted and how it operates then. There is a reason why these six formerly outstanding schools are getting a lot of publicity – something to do with the Tory-led DfE and Cameron’s campaign to promote ‘British values’ (whatever they decide they are) in a GE year – ably backed by its supporters in the press and the BBC.
Fear wins votes and in their eyes so does being seen to be tough and hard-line… classic Tory tactics.
‘ That sounds contradictory.’ You missed the bit when I pointed out that I am comfortable with the freedom of parents to send their children to a private faith school which has the autonomy to set its own ethos and curriculum. You also missed the bit when I said that one size does not fit all. I’m not denying anyone the chance to learn about many faiths – why would I? If parents want something different for their child though, who am I to make authoritarian judgements about where they choose to send their child?
On TPIMS: ‘ Things like internment and mainland exclusion orders were used for years.’ This is exactly what we do not want to return to. Precisely my point. No to witch-hunts and demonisation of communities.
@Helen Tedcastle
Actually I have a very close working relationship with many senior Ofsted inspectors both past and present. So please don’t make assumptions.
“I use the word witch-hunt not because other schools don’t report pupil attitudes but because these particular schools are splashed all over the national press”
I repeat – Ofsted do not control the national press. I can also tell you with some confidence that Ofsted are not engaged in any sort of conspiracy with the press and Tory Party.
As with the “Trojan Horse” affair earlier in the year, much of what Ofsted reports is things that Ofsted has been told by pupils, parents, and staff. If Ofsted receive information along the lines of that which they have received here (I read in one of the papers today that a five year old child told an inspector that he feared he would “go to hell” if he was exposed to music or dance lessons), how exactly do you think Ofsted should handle it? You clearly don’t approve of what Ofsted have done (even though they seem to be doing simply what is their essential function). So if you were running Ofsted, what would you be doing differently? Just burying the whole thing?
By the way, both you and A Social Liberal seem to have completely missed my point about Northern Ireland. I was pointing out a historical fact, no more than that.
Stuart
‘ I can also tell you with some confidence that Ofsted are not engaged in any sort of conspiracy with the press and Tory Party.’
I don’t believe it is a conspiracy or generally in conspiracy theories, There is of course, a difference between ‘conspiracy theories’ and a sharing of assumptions at the top of the organisation with the DfE – in the way one approaches the Muslim community and of course the use of language and more concerning, the way inspectors bring their assumptions to bear on schools. I too know Ofsted inspectors and have been through Ofsteds – I know how it works.
How do you explain for example, Ofsted rating these schools as good or outstanding just two years ago, only to threaten their closure this week? It can only be because the agenda has shifted among politicians – the people dictating the narrative – accepted and implemented with zeal by the chief inspector.
‘(I read in one of the papers today that a five year old child told an inspector that he feared he would “go to hell” if he was exposed to music or dance lessons), how exactly do you think Ofsted should handle it?’
First of all, I would like to know who this Ofsted inspector is and whether they have any knowledge of Islam. Simply reporting the words of a five year old proves little or nothing about what is going on. We don’t know if he was told this directly – we don’t know what branch of Islam the child’s school reflects and would determine our conclusions to be drawn on the use of apocalyptic language like ‘hell’ – or whether he has confused two separate issues. We do not know how or why the arts are disappearing from some schools, when other muslim schools do teach the arts.
In other words, as an Ofsted inspector I would look at the cultural and religious context. Did they do this or not? Did they check whether someone said those words to the child (who repeated them) at the school or at home or not?
Importantly, did the school simply follow Michael Gove’s repeated call too literally and concentrate solely on core academic subjects so that their children could get into the ‘russell group’ universities and ‘score well’ with Ofsted?
These schools are very academically successful – Gove downgraded music and the arts and concentrated on core essay-based and number-based subjects as education secretary – a green light to downgrade arts/practical subjects in academies and free schools isn’t it. In some community schools, if you get one period a week of music you are lucky.
‘ So if you were running Ofsted, what would you be doing differently?’
Easy. I would ensure that inspectors were knowledgeable about the cultural and religious context and not go in to schools with a pre-conceived agenda. I would do more work with the school behind the scenes to address problems. I would be very careful how I report the findings so that it cannot be misinterpreted by a press hell-bent on making headlines.
I would not pander to a government ‘British values’ agenda and remain independent. After all why would I want to alienate and stigmatise the muslim community and drive some people toward radicalisation, because of a witch-hunt approach (as we did in N. Ireland)?
@Helen Tedcastle
“I too know Ofsted inspectors and have been through Ofsteds – I know how it works.”
That makes two of us. And I have to say that the way you characterise Ofsted inspectors is VERY different from the highly professional people I’ve worked with.
“How do you explain for example, Ofsted rating these schools as good or outstanding just two years ago, only to threaten their closure this week?”
A lot can change in two years. You have made this claim before (that slipping from outstanding to inadequate can only happen for sinister reasons), but it’s nonsense. My local FE college recently sunk from grade 1 to grade 4 in subsequent inspections and it had nothing whatsoever to do with Islamic extremism. Such drastic regradings can and do happen for a whole host of reasons.
I share your dismay at Michael Gove’s downgrading of music and arts (which is why I’m baffled by your defence of schools which wipe those subjects from the curriculum altogether), but you’re way off beam suggesting that Gove’s narrow mindedness is in any way morally equivalent to pupils being told that it is sinful to study those subjects.
“I would do more work with the school behind the scenes to address problems.”
So you would bury it., and not let parents know. OK.
“After all why would I want to alienate and stigmatise the muslim community”
I don’t accept that is what Ofsted are doing. I know a large number of Muslims, some extremely devout, and I think every single one of them would be as appalled as I am by the idea of children being denied the opportunity to learn about music, art, and other religions. So who exactly are this “muslim community” you refer to who are going to be outraged by Ofsted daring to report when these things happen? No doubt there are some Muslims who believe this kind of thing amounts to a “witch-hunt”, but if they do that’s probably because they are encouraged to do so by people like yourself, rather than them reacting rationally to what is actually happening.
Stuart
‘ A lot can change in two years’
Yes. The government can move the goalposts and promote a campaign of ‘British values’ in the wake of their own fast-track academies programme giving governors the green light to control schools in Birmingham and interfere in the ethos/running of the schools!
‘ Gove’s narrow mindedness is in any way morally equivalent to pupils being told that it is sinful to study those subjects.’
So you are objecting to a particular religious word and beliefs which could well have come from home. We do not know if the teachers were telling this to this particular five year old and we do not know if the school is simply reflecting the wishes of the community it serves. Like you admitted, Gove downgraded the arts to concentrate on the academic – so it just reinforces their conservative stance and vindicates any move to remove them.
You say yourself that you know muslims who do music and the arts. I myself have witnessed music, singing and art in Islamic worship and prayer. It is a massive part of Sufi tradition for example.
It seems to me that this child comes from a deeply conservative tradition which is not linked automatically to radicalisation. This is the misunderstanding. The use of certain conservative religious terminology is not indicative of an ideology which plans to blow up western interests.
‘ So you would bury it., and not let parents know. OK.’
No. Working with schools behind the scenes means not publishing a report until you have checked everything – the religious context, the parental background, the attitudes of the head. Surely the most sensible thing to do is sort out the issue before releasing to the press, avoiding a possible witch-hunt atmosphere in the muslim community.
Of course, one of the first things Gove did on becoming education secretary was abolish Ofsted’s remit to look at social cohesion or take into account contexts. He said Ofsted should only look at teaching and learning.
Without context, any semblance of cultural sensitivity, this is the result – a sense of being persecuted in communities in east London. I am not encouraging any one to feel persecuted – they already do thanks to Wilshaw, his zealous inspectorate and their political masters in the DfE/No.10.
“The government can move the goalposts and promote a campaign of ‘British values’”
“British values” being, according to the official Government definition :-
“respect for the basis on which the law is made and applied in England; respect for democracy and support for participation in the democratic processes; support for equality of opportunity for all; support and respect for the liberties of all within the law; and respect for and tolerance of different faiths and religious and other beliefs.”
I’m as cynical as anybody about the idea of Tory ministers defining “British values”, but I can’t see too much to quibble with there. Which bits trouble you?
I honestly think you’re defending the indefensible here. Kids should not be forbidden from learning about music for religious reasons.
“a sense of being persecuted in communities in east London”
Is that happening though? What evidence do you have that any “communities” feel that way?